I have no idea why those two had to exluded. One would have been fine to keep in. But both of them being gone makes the Dusk Stone literally unusable unless you trade for one of the Mons.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
They were not only version exclusives, but arguably the most valuable version exclusives in DP.
I'd guess they didn't want to completely take a dump on it.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
At some point during the last time I played Legends Arceus I realized that I just don't like the Sinnoh dex that much. The cross-gen evos don't fall under this, they're all kino for the most part. I'm talking the 100% original Pokemon, other than the starters and some legendaries I simply don't care about them man. A bit too much middling fodder for my tastes (Cherrim, the Burmy line, Carnivine, Kricketune, Purugly, etc). Even the fan favorites like Toxicroak, Garchomp and Lucario don't do much for me. A non-negligible part of the reason why I have such high expectations for Z-A is because the Kalos cast is already a noticeable step up in my personal rankings.
For one, I don't care for any of the non-Sinnoh mons mentioned so far. Especially design wise I think most of them are ugly (Magmar ew)
Secondly, I am inherently not going to use any cross gen evo because it takes way too much time.
My teambuilding will always be a mix of "How easy is it to obtain/train?" and "How much do I like the design?"
I find a lot of murky ass Sinnoh's regional dex to be boring, ugly, etc. and on top of that a lot of them do just suck. Even mons mentioned like Buizel are SUPER mediocre.
Secondly, I am inherently not going to use any cross gen evo because it takes way too much time.
My teambuilding will always be a mix of "How easy is it to obtain/train?" and "How much do I like the design?"
I find a lot of murky ass Sinnoh's regional dex to be boring, ugly, etc. and on top of that a lot of them do just suck. Even mons mentioned like Buizel are SUPER mediocre.
Vespiquen also rules. Uncommon queen bee Pokemon with 3 signature moves that were all at least decent? That's dope.
The honey trees were also a good thing, actually. Yes, even with the obnoxious required time investment, and even with the terrible encounter rates for stuff like Munchlax. Because of them, not in spite of them, even. Unique, high-effort spawn methods were a necessity to counterbalance how much the addition of online trading utterly trivialized the collection aspect of the game. D/P was the first game in which I even bothered to catch 'em all because the GTS made it so easy to do. So, the devs could get away with making the spawn methods for some Pokemon more obtuse than usual. Daily swarms, Friday-only Drifloon, GBA slot spawns. It was all Good, Actually. You could choose to either engage with it all straight-up and enjoy the variety or just circumvent via GTS the specific ones that were too much of an ask for you. Was the best of both words.
I freakin' love gen 4, man.
The honey trees were also a good thing, actually. Yes, even with the obnoxious required time investment, and even with the terrible encounter rates for stuff like Munchlax. Because of them, not in spite of them, even. Unique, high-effort spawn methods were a necessity to counterbalance how much the addition of online trading utterly trivialized the collection aspect of the game. D/P was the first game in which I even bothered to catch 'em all because the GTS made it so easy to do. So, the devs could get away with making the spawn methods for some Pokemon more obtuse than usual. Daily swarms, Friday-only Drifloon, GBA slot spawns. It was all Good, Actually. You could choose to either engage with it all straight-up and enjoy the variety or just circumvent via GTS the specific ones that were too much of an ask for you. Was the best of both words.
I freakin' love gen 4, man.
My unpopular opinion is that gen4 cross evos are, overall, a net negative.
- As far as battling, i think they're a mixed bag. They're often better, sure, but often not in ways that are fun.
(List of cross-evo Pokemon: Magnezone, Lickilicky, Rhyperior, Happiny, Tangrowth, Mime Jr., Electivire, Magmortar, Leafeon, Glaceon, Porygon-Z, Munchlax, Togekiss, Bonsly, Ambipom, Yanmega, Honchkrow, Mismagius, Gliscor, Weavile, Mantyke, Gallade, Probopass, Budew, Dusknoir, Chingling, Froslass)
1. Some of them just aren't better.
Notable offenders: Leafeon, Glaceon, and the 7 baby Pokemon.
Notable successes: Froslass, Yanmega, Lickilicky.
2. Many original guys are / would be fine in-game, reducing the need.
Notable offenders: Rhyperior, Magnezone, Porygon-Z.
Notable successes: Ambipom, Froslass, Yanmega.
3. Evolution methods made them annoying to utilize. (ant sniped me here!)
This is surprisingly applicable to like every Pokemon here. Trade evolutions are the most prominent reason, but evolutionary stones can be debatably a pain depending on the specific game and Pokemon context. For those requiring a certain move, they often get it unnecessarily late–like level 32 for Aipom and the terrible Double Hit, 33 for Yanma and Ancient Power, and originally level 33 for Tangela and Ancient Power (24 now). Even the location-based ones have fiascos. "Vast Poni Canyon" ring a bell?
Notable offenders: Yes
4. Competitive buffs were often unfun.
Moving past the idea that not all Pokemon can or should be "competitively viable" (meaning of which varies from person to person), and having some worse ones is valuable for reducing power creep and role creep, a lot of cross-evos are boring or annoying competitively. Some have bothersome abilities (though do remember Tangrowth's Regenerator was Gen V), some are noob traps, and some are just terrible.
Notable offenders: Togekiss, Ambipom, Probopass.
Notable successes: Honchkrow, Mismagius, Yanmega.
- Design and concept wise, I think the cross-evos are generally downgrades, with exceptions. Their concepts are often shallower than the original concepts and unfaithful to them, or, swinging to the other extreme, painfully uninventive.
This is something later generations get solid flak for, but Gen 4 not so much. I think Gen 4 is more guilty here than later generations, actually. While a Pokemon like Meowscarada is obviously much more human-like than Torterra, Meowscarada does use that likeness for personality and flair that would be harder to justify on a more animalistic Pokemon. Some middle-generation Pokemon face the worst of both worlds: they are decidedly more human-like than their priors, but not in a way used to characterize the Pokemon like Meowscarada, simultaneously lacking that and any animalistic charm or wonder.
Notable offenders: Electivire, Probopass, Ambipom
(There's a separate class of more subtly humanized Pokemon: e.g. Mismagius's hat, Honchkrow's exaggerated hat, Rhyperior's armor.)
Notable exceptions: There are plenty of cross-gen that maintain their level of humanness, which is good I suppose, but I can't think of any that meaningfully decrease it, so I'll leave this blank.
2. The old Pokemon's concept but, just, again
Notable offenders: Lickilicky, Tangrowth, Leafeon, Glaceon (but not Sylveon!)
Notable exceptions: Gallade, Porygon-Z, Magnezone
3. Shallowness / subtlety
To illustrate my critique by example, I will now describe the concepts behind two Pokemon to the best of my ability.
Murkrow is an odd character. It obsesses over shiny things and can be a bit of a nuisance, as real birds sometimes are. But it causes problems a bit more on purpose than that. It's a mischievous scamp, but also vaguely sinister. If you ever see it, it will try to get you lost in the mountains. Superstitious people think it's a sign of bad luck, which makes some sense from its shady appearance and behavior.
Honchkrow acts all big, but it makes its disposable Murkrow henchmen do the dirty work, and it is really mean if they fail. In other words, it's a stereotypical villainous boss. Also it's a mafia boss, but it doesn't do much mafia-specific. It has goons, but so do all villainous bosses. I guess it's only active at night, which is kind of like organized crime wanting to remain beneath notice, but maybe that's just inherited from Murkrow?
Maybe you think being a mafia boss is cooler than what Murkrow has going on. Sure, that's your prerogative. But Murkrow does have a richer, more cohesive concept that naturally flows into itself, while Honchkrow is conceptually more clumsy.
Notable offenders: Honchkrow, Rhyperior, Dusknoir
Notable successes: Froslass, Yanmega, Mismagius
I do have to stand up for Probopass here. It gets the hat/hairpiece and eyes because those are features that Moai originally had (which have mostly eroded off). So the mon gets those features as part of its line already being based on a representation of a human. Sure, the mustache is new, but that's more than made up for with the complete removal of limbs.
So Sinnoh has 107 Pokemon of its own, 27 being related to Prior Gen mons, compared to Johto (its closest comparison in terms of thematics for the region and preceding Dex size) being 16/100. I have excluded the Eeveelutions of both gens since Eevee's evolution gimmick makes it a common choice for showing off new Evo mechanics and revisiting for new typed members.
Where Johto loses me is how many of those slots are just the Baby mons. Scizor, Kingdra, Slowking are all good as extensions of the pre-existing families, but the Babies are awful, not even implemented interestingly like a means to give earlier access to mid/late game strength mons compared to, say, Budew in Gen 4 letting you get Roselia started earlier and then Roserade to carry into End Game. While Sinnoh has more previous Gen ties, a lot more of them are improving on or outright completing insufficient Mons, so there was some kind of intent behind revisiting them beyond PADDING OUT the dex as the Babies in both games feel like at times. I won't say they're all winners but I definitely think it's a much worse approach in Gen 2 than Gen 4.
Murkrow has a Witch's Hat designed into its head, yet no Dex entries nor its natural movepool reflect a penchant for magic or supernatural abilities, it's simply there because Witches and Crows are linked images/symbology. The name is generic (Murk/Dark + Crow, or "Murder" as in a group despite no allusion to pack life in Murkrow's Dex Entries) and the only thing it has going for it is a level of intelligence in trying to steal shiny objects and mislead followers, which is characteristic of decently-intelligent Corvids but isn't really stand out in the Pokemon World for animal intelligence. Very little is made of Murkrow that is particular to Crows, which have demonstrated intelligence above typical birds like utilizing tools or problem solving with the environment (some have been observed dropping nuts into traffic crosswalks so cars will run over and break the shells, but also stop for traffic lights so they can retrieve them).
Honchkrow by comparison combines the crow traits more harmoniously with the Mafia angle. As a boss of a group of Murkrow who bring it stuff, it's the head of a Crime Family obviously, and its name more directly reflects its concept ("Don" Karasu or "Honchkrow" as in "Honcho", the boss). What is a group of crows often dubbed? A "Murder" of crows, which makes for a fun wordplay on the conduct of a pissed off Honchkrow and what it does to those who double cross it or come up short (Mafia punishments are one of the most famous images of the compared to a random Villain/Criminal Gang). Back to Murkrow's random Witch motif, Honchkrow's white rimmed eyes and prominent white chest feathers evoke the image of a Wizard's beard, giving the Murkrow a role as its familiars or a Coven to actually complete the Magician Angle Murkrow started but did nothing with, even with Honchkrow's Physical lean. Its movepool also reflects the "Criminal/Fighting Dirty" idea with naturally learning Pursuit, Nasty Plot, and later Foul Play/Sucker Punch (previously inherited as Murkrow-exclusive level up or Tutor).
Also something I'd note is a lot of Pokemon teams operate like organized crime, the main thing the Mafia is defined as, dating as far back as Giovanni in Team Rocket deriving from the Yakuza or Team Galactic operating out of a known building in Veilstone next to a Gambling facility much the same way. A boss bringing minions together for larger aspirations is what distinguishes them from random thugs as is the case with Murkrow just being random tricksters if not working under a Honchkrow boss.
Another thing that distinguishes an organized Criminal Organization from a plain old Villain group is the idea that Crime Families are known but not really straightforward to deal with more through their methods vs being under the radar or too strong to challenge. Honchkrow operating at night could stem from its Murkrow minions are more adept there vs their targets but aren't so overwhelming that they could just take whatever whenever. It's a trait inherited from Murkrow being Nocturnal but now put to use instead of simply being.
Honchkrow's actually one of the few Cross Gen Evos to add a new motif or idea to the line instead of "the old thing but more" as criticized for many others (Lickilicky, Tangrowth), which I think is realized rather sufficiently in part because Murkrow's original concept was barely above the "animal but with a funny extra trait" approach but springboarded off of into the new Boss look.
Where Johto loses me is how many of those slots are just the Baby mons. Scizor, Kingdra, Slowking are all good as extensions of the pre-existing families, but the Babies are awful, not even implemented interestingly like a means to give earlier access to mid/late game strength mons compared to, say, Budew in Gen 4 letting you get Roselia started earlier and then Roserade to carry into End Game. While Sinnoh has more previous Gen ties, a lot more of them are improving on or outright completing insufficient Mons, so there was some kind of intent behind revisiting them beyond PADDING OUT the dex as the Babies in both games feel like at times. I won't say they're all winners but I definitely think it's a much worse approach in Gen 2 than Gen 4.
Counter Argument: Murkrow's concept throws a bunch of aspects of Crows together without any real integration, where Honchkrow is a different concept simply realized using the Crow motif. By this metric I disagree vehemently with the idea that Murkrow has a richer or more cohesive concept.
Murkrow has a Witch's Hat designed into its head, yet no Dex entries nor its natural movepool reflect a penchant for magic or supernatural abilities, it's simply there because Witches and Crows are linked images/symbology. The name is generic (Murk/Dark + Crow, or "Murder" as in a group despite no allusion to pack life in Murkrow's Dex Entries) and the only thing it has going for it is a level of intelligence in trying to steal shiny objects and mislead followers, which is characteristic of decently-intelligent Corvids but isn't really stand out in the Pokemon World for animal intelligence. Very little is made of Murkrow that is particular to Crows, which have demonstrated intelligence above typical birds like utilizing tools or problem solving with the environment (some have been observed dropping nuts into traffic crosswalks so cars will run over and break the shells, but also stop for traffic lights so they can retrieve them).
Honchkrow by comparison combines the crow traits more harmoniously with the Mafia angle. As a boss of a group of Murkrow who bring it stuff, it's the head of a Crime Family obviously, and its name more directly reflects its concept ("Don" Karasu or "Honchkrow" as in "Honcho", the boss). What is a group of crows often dubbed? A "Murder" of crows, which makes for a fun wordplay on the conduct of a pissed off Honchkrow and what it does to those who double cross it or come up short (Mafia punishments are one of the most famous images of the compared to a random Villain/Criminal Gang). Back to Murkrow's random Witch motif, Honchkrow's white rimmed eyes and prominent white chest feathers evoke the image of a Wizard's beard, giving the Murkrow a role as its familiars or a Coven to actually complete the Magician Angle Murkrow started but did nothing with, even with Honchkrow's Physical lean. Its movepool also reflects the "Criminal/Fighting Dirty" idea with naturally learning Pursuit, Nasty Plot, and later Foul Play/Sucker Punch (previously inherited as Murkrow-exclusive level up or Tutor).
Also something I'd note is a lot of Pokemon teams operate like organized crime, the main thing the Mafia is defined as, dating as far back as Giovanni in Team Rocket deriving from the Yakuza or Team Galactic operating out of a known building in Veilstone next to a Gambling facility much the same way. A boss bringing minions together for larger aspirations is what distinguishes them from random thugs as is the case with Murkrow just being random tricksters if not working under a Honchkrow boss.
Another thing that distinguishes an organized Criminal Organization from a plain old Villain group is the idea that Crime Families are known but not really straightforward to deal with more through their methods vs being under the radar or too strong to challenge. Honchkrow operating at night could stem from its Murkrow minions are more adept there vs their targets but aren't so overwhelming that they could just take whatever whenever. It's a trait inherited from Murkrow being Nocturnal but now put to use instead of simply being.
Honchkrow's actually one of the few Cross Gen Evos to add a new motif or idea to the line instead of "the old thing but more" as criticized for many others (Lickilicky, Tangrowth), which I think is realized rather sufficiently in part because Murkrow's original concept was barely above the "animal but with a funny extra trait" approach but springboarded off of into the new Boss look.
So let me get this straight...
No wonder y'all are only getting the middling dex fodder...
"Don't want them, too popular and overrated."
"Don't want them, nobody got time for old mons"
"Too much work"
No wonder y'all are only getting the middling dex fodder...
I could go on, but my point has been made. If you can't build a fun team in Sinnoh...
What even was the point of this, anyway? Just to have some cute stuff to fill up the dex?
Whether it's the map or the dex, Johto can only stand on the merit of basically being an expansion to Kanto. It's got such little substance of its own to offer.
I think the idea was to show off the breeding mechanic, but it misses the point that if you have the Mon to breed them down, you would just use the parent in-game, since no one is using Egg Moves for casual runs vs PVP. Gen 4 at least gives Riolu without Lucario immediately accessible and stuff like Gen 5 makes the Babies early game wild encounters like I mentioned.
Merch and flexing the breeding mechanics.
I actually disagree with this.
Johto on its own is a very solid region. If they hadn't done that stupid split path that broke the level curve, it'd be more obvious. But the region itself is pretty good.
It speaks volumes that for all the hype it gets, Kanto is a barren, empty husk in the Johto games.
The cardinal sin of the Johto games is team building. I've learned it the hard way running tests for GSC's IGTL. Once you pick a Normal and a Water-type, you're in no man's land. There's so much overlap.
Not to mention the boneheaded lack of Johto reps in their own damn games. Game Freak couldn't have stuck Murkrow and Houndour *anywhere* in Johto despite the day/night cycle? Really?
Just one of those things where people loved the idea of it and glossed over the execution.
I admit I sometimes have a hard time separating criticism of Johto from criticism of GSC.
But what if, and hear me out, both kanto and johto are mid?
Okay, but hear me out. I've played games that have included all regions, which in this case is FRLG, Yellow, LGPE and HGSS for kanto and johto, and both are not really spectacular, I don't think any pokemon region is spectacular. Even Hoenn, which is the region I grew up with cause my first game was ORAS, is only alright. But Kanto and Johto especially are not good, the others are at least alright.
Kanto sadly falls victim to the fact that unless you know the game, i.e. you have played the games beforehand, you will not know where to go, you just kinda have to guess. Despite the fact that I knew what route you kinda have to go, the game doesn't even have a recommended route of 'you should go here, but you could also go here', its entirely in the players hand. Now, this may not seem bad, but the zero guidance or story means that newer players don't know where to go. Everything else about it is alright, the map layout is cool, but again, you are not guided upon a path and given the option of something else.
Johto on the other hand, is not really good of a region. Sure, there are a few cool things, such as it looping around on itself, but at the end of the day, you are going back and forth between areas and they don't really feel impactful or necessary. You have to get medicine for the ampharos by going to cianwood town (the town where chuck is, if I'm wrong on the name) to go back to the same town by flying. Backtracking should be fun, but it isn't because you get to surf, something which isn't really good in pokemon games in general because they refuse to make interesting water obstacles outside of hoenn, which even then isn't too interesting outside a few routes (the whirlpools are so small they barely count), and thus make the treck there boring. You do get fly in the town, but again, why not just have you fight jasmine and then fight chuck? That seems a lot easier. And then the team rocket stuff happens and you have to go to goldenrod, completely breaking the immersion of the game by going to a previous location unorganically. And then once that's done, you go about your business. Don't even get me started on the level curve, that's the worst part and shows how split paths have to be handled carefully.
Okay, but hear me out. I've played games that have included all regions, which in this case is FRLG, Yellow, LGPE and HGSS for kanto and johto, and both are not really spectacular, I don't think any pokemon region is spectacular. Even Hoenn, which is the region I grew up with cause my first game was ORAS, is only alright. But Kanto and Johto especially are not good, the others are at least alright.
Kanto sadly falls victim to the fact that unless you know the game, i.e. you have played the games beforehand, you will not know where to go, you just kinda have to guess. Despite the fact that I knew what route you kinda have to go, the game doesn't even have a recommended route of 'you should go here, but you could also go here', its entirely in the players hand. Now, this may not seem bad, but the zero guidance or story means that newer players don't know where to go. Everything else about it is alright, the map layout is cool, but again, you are not guided upon a path and given the option of something else.
Johto on the other hand, is not really good of a region. Sure, there are a few cool things, such as it looping around on itself, but at the end of the day, you are going back and forth between areas and they don't really feel impactful or necessary. You have to get medicine for the ampharos by going to cianwood town (the town where chuck is, if I'm wrong on the name) to go back to the same town by flying. Backtracking should be fun, but it isn't because you get to surf, something which isn't really good in pokemon games in general because they refuse to make interesting water obstacles outside of hoenn, which even then isn't too interesting outside a few routes (the whirlpools are so small they barely count), and thus make the treck there boring. You do get fly in the town, but again, why not just have you fight jasmine and then fight chuck? That seems a lot easier. And then the team rocket stuff happens and you have to go to goldenrod, completely breaking the immersion of the game by going to a previous location unorganically. And then once that's done, you go about your business. Don't even get me started on the level curve, that's the worst part and shows how split paths have to be handled carefully.
I think there are a lot of different ways that you can argue that Kanto is lacking compared to what came after it (it's pretty basic), but this isn't one of them. And the older I get, the more I'm inclined to think that games of this style could use less directional guidance, not more.
Pokemon has always been a game for barely-literate children, and those of the late '90s could still brute force their way through it. You don't need a whole lot of direction. Routes are small, secret areas are few and far between, there aren't that many key items needed for map progression, and those that exist have only so many places where they could be found. The most obtuse one is probably the Flash HM, and that's something that actually isn't technically required and at least some players in RBY don't even like to use anyway because of the lack of a move deleter in gen 1.
Like I remember just scrolling through the list of all of the areas on the Town Map in RBY, and the order in which they are listed in the map is like ~95% matched to the order in which you're expected to traverse them over the course of the quest. Didn't take a lot of intuition or experimentation.
I love that, for all the hate it gets, no one is debating Hoenn. Because yeah, it's just good. The first 5 gyms are a legitimately fun pathfinding experience, and post-surf the game is all about letting you decide how much or how little you want to explore the water routes. There's issues, sure, but given the generation and tech available, Hoenn was a gold standard region design. And the mons are similar. Sure there's issues(all the non-Geodude/Marshtomp grounds are available AFTER Wattson), but it had interesting designs and refreshing takes on the standard concepts.
Anyways Mt Coronet is excellent and I wish the rest of Sinnoh was anywhere near that level.
Anyways Mt Coronet is excellent and I wish the rest of Sinnoh was anywhere near that level.
Vespiquen is honestly good. I've been using it in an LP (was also fortunate enough to get Munchlax too). Munchlax soloing Fantina is incredibly funny to me.
idk my opinion on sinnoh is simpler: its not that fun
the choices of sinnoh arent fun. i dont like most of these designs and if im replaying a pokemon game id like to run a bit of variety otherwise whats the point. croagunk toxicroak carnivine brozong gastrodon vespiqueen is basically all i run cuz everything else is so mid. im not even talking abt trade stuff cuz i play on emulator i can just hack those yknow
the routes arent fun. theyre samey and uninspired and the color pallete of sinnoh feels off to me. the hms make travelling a chore.
yeah gen 4 battles slow etc. i run on 2x speed who cares. however the gym leaders dont give me any joy other than fantina and sometimes crasher wake. they feel forgettable and bland. their designs arent nearly as good as gen 3s for sure.
the plot is a plot. i get what they were going for but i find it falling. the main thing it has going on is shock bc blowing up a lake and the giratina summon are pretty cool jumps. i just dont find galactic that interesting or well explored, same with cynthia and cyrus.
idk. its a very "i can just play another pokemon game" game
the choices of sinnoh arent fun. i dont like most of these designs and if im replaying a pokemon game id like to run a bit of variety otherwise whats the point. croagunk toxicroak carnivine brozong gastrodon vespiqueen is basically all i run cuz everything else is so mid. im not even talking abt trade stuff cuz i play on emulator i can just hack those yknow
the routes arent fun. theyre samey and uninspired and the color pallete of sinnoh feels off to me. the hms make travelling a chore.
yeah gen 4 battles slow etc. i run on 2x speed who cares. however the gym leaders dont give me any joy other than fantina and sometimes crasher wake. they feel forgettable and bland. their designs arent nearly as good as gen 3s for sure.
the plot is a plot. i get what they were going for but i find it falling. the main thing it has going on is shock bc blowing up a lake and the giratina summon are pretty cool jumps. i just dont find galactic that interesting or well explored, same with cynthia and cyrus.
idk. its a very "i can just play another pokemon game" game
Ima be honest, I Really Did noy enjoy Shining pearl Because of it being a game, But Because of it being Pokémon. The game is only nice in some ways After The league when You Can fille use The underground, The legendary catching park and the battle tower. The scénario Is a pain, and the fact that Legend Arceus, Better in All points comes 3-4 months After Is Really not helping it.
I think disliking BDSP is not really a controversial opinion. That game was ass. They looked at all the improvements that Platinum made and said 'nah, that ain't good".
It's one of the only mainline pokemon games I haven't played, and boy did I dodge a bullet.
Response to some of the comments:
On the topic of baby Pokemon, one advantage is that they allow that line to specifically appear in an earlier area of another game without breaking game balance, like how Munchlax can appear early in the Alola game; in addition to what's said about encouraging breeding.
A lot of people complain about how tedious the older between the back tracking and how a lot of tedious systems plagued the older titles, but I feel like in Gens 1-4, this was largley influenced by the game design of other JRPGs, specifically Dragon Quest, which was the inspiration for the trading system in Pokemon.
I've been playing through Dragon Quest 8: Journey of the Cursed King on the 3DS, and there is a lot of backtracking and detours to do while progressing the story. A particularly notable example is when you arrive at the Dark Ruins hot in pursuit of the anatagonist, Dhoulmagus, who just recently killed another victim. Upon arriving at the ruins, there's a magic aura preventing entrance. So you have to go to another kingdom and do an unrelated quest to get a magic mirror that dispel the aura, effectively killing the mood. And then once you get the mirror, you are told it lacks magic so you have to visit another location to learn how to recharge the mirror and then travel to that location, which isn't specifically said, and then recharge by " using " a non-weapon item in combat. After all that, finally you can explore the Dark Ruins and defeat Dhoulmagus.
Doesn't that sound familiar to like how people complain about the progression of Sinnoh and Johto? This kind of system in which the player has to travel a lot and do a bunch of unrelated sidequests in order to make progression encourages the player to take their time and explore the world in multiple sessions as opposed to doing in one session- doing that grants the player additional perks like getting better gear, more lore, or items to help create better gear.
On the topic of baby Pokemon, one advantage is that they allow that line to specifically appear in an earlier area of another game without breaking game balance, like how Munchlax can appear early in the Alola game; in addition to what's said about encouraging breeding.
A lot of people complain about how tedious the older between the back tracking and how a lot of tedious systems plagued the older titles, but I feel like in Gens 1-4, this was largley influenced by the game design of other JRPGs, specifically Dragon Quest, which was the inspiration for the trading system in Pokemon.
I've been playing through Dragon Quest 8: Journey of the Cursed King on the 3DS, and there is a lot of backtracking and detours to do while progressing the story. A particularly notable example is when you arrive at the Dark Ruins hot in pursuit of the anatagonist, Dhoulmagus, who just recently killed another victim. Upon arriving at the ruins, there's a magic aura preventing entrance. So you have to go to another kingdom and do an unrelated quest to get a magic mirror that dispel the aura, effectively killing the mood. And then once you get the mirror, you are told it lacks magic so you have to visit another location to learn how to recharge the mirror and then travel to that location, which isn't specifically said, and then recharge by " using " a non-weapon item in combat. After all that, finally you can explore the Dark Ruins and defeat Dhoulmagus.
Doesn't that sound familiar to like how people complain about the progression of Sinnoh and Johto? This kind of system in which the player has to travel a lot and do a bunch of unrelated sidequests in order to make progression encourages the player to take their time and explore the world in multiple sessions as opposed to doing in one session- doing that grants the player additional perks like getting better gear, more lore, or items to help create better gear.
Because they had guides.
God.
I hate. This. Argument. Used all the fucking time for retro gaming. IT'S BECAUSE MFERS WERE PAYING A SHIT TON OF MONEY TO PHONE LINES!
This was the PEAK of the gaming guides! Buy this magazine, subscribe to Nintendo Power, call our phone line to get tips and tricks! That is how kids got through games like Zelda and Pokemon, because
1. They had a shit ton of time on their hands, and despite the recent increase to $70 games literally effectively cost more back then, meaning people played the games for longer, which was a deliberate part of the design to make people play games for longer
2. Because there was entire predatory industry around making shitty designed games with no direction, and having kids pay to understand the basics/learn where to go lmao
Kids were not smarter in the 90s, they had less choice for what to play and they asked their parents to buy a magazine, or their friend used a magazine. Also, while rarer, the fucking internet existed! People also looked up guides back then!
Were there maybe some kids that did it without external help? Sure, probably. But the reason the majority were able to get through it was because guides are not new to the industry, it was at its peak in the 90s with phone lines, magazines, game guides, and the internet still existed.
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A lot of us played that game with no internet, guides, and in some cases like mine, we couldn't even speak English.
It's hardly believable that people got filtered by Kanto's fake open world.
The Safari Zone is kind of a mess tho.
Yeah also, ftr, my post is only in terms of the group that actually beat the game
Tons of people didn't have the money for guides, tip lines, or the internet, etc. etc. etc.
And a lot of people just didn't beat the game
This is honestly a sobering point: There are many games even now people never even any%, much less 100%
RPGs are extremely guilty of this, for as you said, due to predatory practice of guides
Pokemon seems to have wanted to steer away from it since Gen 2, having guides more for extraneous optional mons and items than legit barriers. For as memed as the Braille puzzle is in Gen 3, it's not needed to beat the game
Of course version exclusives are shitty practices themselves till this day, but that again only matters for optional mons
That said, Kanto's bigger issue is how boring it is for landscape diversity compared to later. None of the remakes really fix this (Sevii is postgame). Gen 2 is similarly guilty, though aesthetic of rural areas helps, same for HGSS's autumn theme. Kanto's urbanism is too lightly done nor unique enough across towns
Gameplay wise it's still passable, and arguably better for team building and level curve than Johto. But it's blah to look at
RPGs are extremely guilty of this, for as you said, due to predatory practice of guides
Pokemon seems to have wanted to steer away from it since Gen 2, having guides more for extraneous optional mons and items than legit barriers. For as memed as the Braille puzzle is in Gen 3, it's not needed to beat the game
That said, Kanto's bigger issue is how boring it is for landscape diversity compared to later. None of the remakes really fix this (Sevii is postgame). Gen 2 is similarly guilty, though aesthetic of rural areas helps, same for HGSS's autumn theme. Kanto's urbanism is too lightly done nor unique enough across towns
Gameplay wise it's still passable, and arguably better for team building and level curve than Johto. But it's blah to look at