Defending in Gen IV - Defense vs Resistances

[Scholst]

Hi.

As we all know, the No. 1 defensive combination in Gens 2-3 was undoubtedly SkarmBliss. However, now it just seems to be becoming rarer and rarer. Personally I think it's due to the rise of MixApe, MixMence, and Mence with Fire Blast, ect. Basically; Mixed Attackers.
So do you think there's another walling combination to replace SkarmBliss as the No. 1, or do you think we're in a Metagame where we really on resistances; i.e. Steel+Duel Dragon Combo.
Also, talking of SkarmBliss, would you say Skarmory is the best man for the job anymore? Hippowdon is, on average, MORE defensive than Skarm. Also, Forry isn't far off, and can set up Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Rapid Spin.
Do you think Bulky Offense is more viable than SkarmBliss nowadays, due to the current Metagame being dominated by 'momentum.'
So does SkarmBliss have a home outside of stall, and is it still really the best was of countering threats?

Discuss.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Personally, I think Skarmory and Swampert is a better walling combo in Gen IV, as by giving Skarmory a specially defensive EV spread and Swampert a physical spread, they wall a lot between the two of them, not to mention they resist each other's weaknesses.

Skarmory is still the best physical wall of there imo, as it sports a better typing and movepoll than Hippowdon and has a Ground immunity and reliable healing move unlike Forretress.

SkarmBliss could work on balanced teams, just as general "go-to" guys in face of danger. Common members of balanced teams such as Latias and Scizor are around to beat common mixed attackers like Infernape and Salamence.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I'm not completely sure if this is worth a thread, but sure, why not.

Skarmory and Blissey are still very very common, so your statement isn't that correct, but thuth to be told, they are dropping little by little. Most Stall teams have Blissey, but not always Skarmory in it. Skarmory has it's pros and cons, though there are others, with their pros and cons as well. Forretress is the prime contender, of course.

I've made a list of most of todays popular stall Pokemon (excluding Blissey, whixh needs no explanation imo):

Hippowdon has astronomical Defense and useful SpD as well, making it and few others a worthwile non-Outrage Mixmence counter with heavy SpD investment, while still countering Tyranitar like no other. Roar and Toxic, not frgetting SR still making this guy worthwile in any stall team, and it's main attraction is actually the ability to put SS up for the rest of the match. All of these make Hippowdon a very very capable and popular Pokemon on stall teams.

Forretress is one of the few Pokemon that can set up both Spikes and Toxic Spikes (and spin them away), so it is self-explanatory why it is popular on stall teams. The thing that makes it so attractive above other like him is his typing and stats though - HP and Def that toghether are bigger then Skarmorys, as well as neutrality to Thunderbolt make Forretress a worthwile competitor to Skarmorys spot as a Spiker on a stall team, with the only letdown being a 4x Fire weakness and no reliable recovery.

Suicune doesn't have the ability to set up entry hazards nor spin them away, but the combination of its bulk, ability and typing make it a force to be wary of. 115 base Def and SpD make it an amazing sponge, while Pressure makes it win against other CM sweepers in a stall battle. The CM sets are of course the prime attraction, being able to rip apart teams after a few CMs. The lack of recovery hurts though. Roar and Ice Beam are also attractive.

Suicune's defenses helps it check and counter an amazing amount of threats, and like Hippowdon, can stop Mixmence to an extent. All of these make Suicune a great addition to stall teams.

And we get to Skarmory. Roost, Spikes and Whirlwind are huge assets to stall teams, and so Skarmory is always a very worthwile option. Taunt, BB and typing is merely a plus. Typing, as well as stats make Skarmory an amazing Pokemon, being able to counter a lot of common physical sweepers. Though a lot of Pokemon out there lurk and take care of Skarmory easily, other Pokemon (caugh Blissey caugh) can take care of them.

Celebi's movepool is the main catch here - Perish Song, Baton Pass, STAB Grass Knot, Recover, Calm Mind, Swords Dance - the list goes on! Celebi can always find itself a roll in stall teams, be it to stop a last-Pokemon sweep with PS, Baton Pass to a teammate or just to check and cointer threats such as CursePert, Gyarados and more. It can also be an excellent lure to Scizor, carrying HP Fire and enough EV investent to take it out in a hit. Base 100 stats across the board justify Celebi's ability to take on almost every roll.

Rotom-A is the primary spin blocker in todays metagame, mostly because of it's Electric typing, giving its team access to Electric-STAB, along with excellent stats, wit hacceptable SpA and defenses. Each form also has a unique move to abuse. Checking and countering a lot of threats easily, such as Metagross, Jirachi and more make it that more attracting.

Latias acts somewhat like Suicune, only with less defences but better typing (to an extent) and Dragon STAB, not to mention base 110 speed and a bigger movepool, allowing it to check multiple threats such as Heatran and Mixmence while being able to sweep with CM. Recover is also a huge plus, and Latias has a lot of other trickes up her sleve such as Refresh, Psycho Shift and more.

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I think that this is enough for now. The stall team's slots have a lot of options as you can see, and a lot of combinations can be made. It mostly comes down to overall resistances in the end, after counters to the majority of the metagame, a hazard layer(s), a rapid spinner and a spin blocke are there, most of the time.

Edit: Oh, sorry about that. Maybe the fact that I didn't play competitive Pokemon back in RSE had an effect. Anyway, this is really a very short list. There are many other options such as Tentacruel, Dusknoir, Spiritomb, Zapdos, Jirachi and many more. To compile a list like that, I would need much more time.

 

[Scholst]

Skarmory and Blissey are still very very common, so your statement isn't that correct

Sorry B_T, what I meant to say was they are becoming rarer and rarer compared to the 3rd Gen, where I'm sure they'd be on nearly a third of all teams, easy, because they could fit onto could fit onto nearly all types of teams. Offensive Teams, loved the Spikes/Cleric support, Stall teams loved their ability to...well...stall, and Balanced teams loved the re-assurence against huge threats like CM-Kou and DD-Tar.
Btw, that's a great list, thanks.

 

[Marzbar]

May I suggest Weezing as another defensive option?

Huge Def stat with helpful resistances to Fighting and Grass, and an immunity to Ground. A reliable healing move in Pain Split, and access to Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Explosion and Sludge Bomb.

A great counter to Breloom, Machamp, Heracross, Flygon, Gyrados, Mamoswine and Scizor.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

That was merely a start-up list. You can add whatever you want really.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I wasn't a competitive Pokemon player in Gen 3, but I'd like to discuss the interesting idea in the thread title - are high defensive base stats or key resistances more important in making an effective defensive Pokemon?

Personally, I think that good resistances with passable defenses are far preferable to very good defenses but a lack of worthwhile resistances. The only cases in which this doesn't hold true is when the defensive Pokemon has an overwhelmingly high defensive stat(s). Blissey in OU and Chansey in UU are the probably the only real instances where sheer defensive stats outweigh resistances - they are hit by the majority of special attackers for neutral damage, but because of their mammoth HP and SpD stats they still manage fine against them. But with the vast majority of defensive Pokemon, I find helpful resistances factor in more than statistical defensive prowess.

The Rotom formes are an excellent example of this. 50/107/107 isn't that impressive at all, but their massive list of useful resistances and immunities make them staples of defensive teams. Immunities to Ground, Fighting, and Normal have great benefits: the first two are very common physical attacking types, whereas a Normal immunity allows them to block Rapid Spin and come in on opposing Explosions. Other notable resistances include Bug, Steel, and Electric, making Rotom one of the best counters for Scizor around. Having few weaknesses is obviously beneficial as well, and Rotom only takes super effective damage from Ghost and Dark attacks, which to a large extent can be played around quite easily.

On the other side of the scale we have Pokemon such as Regirock, Regice, and Articuno, who all have excellent defensive stats, but because of a lack of real resistances cannot break into OU. Articuno and Regice's defensive potential is wasted by Stealth Rock, and neither they nor Regirock possess any really notable resistances.

Access to helpful support moves is also a big factor in making a Pokemon effective, and is why things like Rotom are far more helpful Ground/Fighting resisters than Cresselia, but that's for another discussion topic.

 

[MetaNite]

I think one of the biggest thing defensive Pokemon have going for it is instant recovery. Swampert can only wall for so long, while Skarmory can easily recover its health. Suicune can take a real beating but then must resort to Rest in order to heal itself.

Other than that, I would agree wholeheartedly with LR. Besides Blissey and the like, resistances are often more helpful than good defenses on a Pokemon with at least decent defenses. I think Lucario is a prime example of this. Lucario is often 2HKOed by most even neutral attacks, yet because of its myriad of resistances it can even counter a lot of Pokemon, such as Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor, most Pokemon would trend switching into. Although Lucario is not a defensive Pokemon, it still performs the role of one pretty well in a couple cases.

Not much else to add as LR got most if it.

 

[Scholst]

Also, feel free to add things to Blue Tornado's list.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

@Metanite: I think that some ResTalk sets form the most threatening and effective sets in the metagame, such as CM Cune, ResTalk Rotom-H, ResTalk Mahcamp and more. A Pokemon isn't that bad without instant recovery, but then again, it really is dependant on the 33% chance.

But, ResTalking brings a huge advantage - no fear of status. This fact alone makes them that effective most of the time, i.e. switching Suicune in on Blissey nad setting up with impunity.

ResTalking pretty much varies with the Pokemon. Some Pokemon turn out horribly with a ResTalk set, while other can function very well with ResTalk even if they do have instant recovery.

 

[blasphemy1]

For Suicune, instant Recovery isn't as preferable as Rest. Toxic Spikes and Toxic really screw Suicune, so Rest is a great way to get rid of status, enabling Suicune to stall for longer. Any pokemon that is using a move like Bulk Up or Calm Mind, while using its defenses to set up, and is not immune to Toxic/Toxic Spikes, should be running Rest IMO. There are very few examples of this, since Jirachi is immune, Raikou has a STAB that prevents him from running a mono-attack CM Resttalk set, and other pokemon like Slowbro absolutely need Slack Off to beat physical attackers.

I wouldn't agree with Blue Tornado when it comes to Skarmory having a better typing. Hippowdon's typing is actually what makes it arguably more useful than Skarmory. Rock resistance means Tyranitar and pokemon like Rhyperior are more easily defeated, while electric immunity means that it can easily counter electric types with proper investment. He doesn't have a Fire weakness either, which means pokemon like Salamence, who often run Fire Blast on sweeping sets, can't exploit his mediocre SpD as easily.

 

[Scholst]

Originally Posted by Fat KnightoftheWind:
I think Skarmory and Swampert is a better walling combo in Gen IV, as by giving Skarmory a specially defensive EV spread and Swampert a physical spread, they wall a lot between the two of them, not to mention they resist each other's weaknesses.

Like KOTW's example, can anyone think of a walling comination as good as/better than SkarmBliss?

 

[Glen]

as a competitive third gen player, i like this thread!

On the other side of the scale we have Pokemon such as Regirock, Regice, and Articuno, who all have excellent defensive stats, but because of a lack of real resistances cannot break into OU. Articuno and Regice's defensive potential is wasted by Stealth Rock, and neither they nor Regirock possess any really notable resistances.

articuno was awful back then too, but that's because even before stealth rock, 4x rock weaknesses meant you needed to be a ridiculously good offensive pokemon to warrant play. 'defensive' pokemon with 4x weaknesses barring the likes of someone like swampert were just a no no.

regice was actually pretty good though! not as good as blissey, of course, but it just sat there and took hits like nobody's business. it was one of the only mons that you would actually use toxic on, too.

as far as resistances vs defensive stats, nowadays the former is definitely more important. not only are there just too many mixed offensive threats in the game, but there are too many obscenely powerful moves. moves like outrage and close combat, essentially no-risk 120 base power moves. you can't even take stabbed 120s neutrally without the damage really starting to add up.

this is in stark contrast to third gen. there was very little variation. very few sets for most pokemon, and almost none were mixed simply because they didn't have the stats/moves to pull it off. then along came boah...

of course defensive stats are still mighty important, but now, with the exception of blissey (because blissey is just ridiculous) you need defensive coverage above all else. this is one of the reasons snorlax isn't played much anymore.

but to be fair, defensive coverage was still very important in third gen too! skarmory was so good because it had no physical weaknesses, a concept which no longer exists. anyway, my assessment of this metagame is as such: you cannot expect solid defensive stats to save you because there are just too many possibilities in this generation.

while having one good set could make a pokemon top tier in gen 3 (see gyarados, you KNEW it had taunt/dd/eq/hp flying but that didnt stop it from being scary as hell), now everything seems to have several completely viable sets, and several more 'not quite as viable but still fills a specific niche and can get an important kill' sets. so you're kinda forced to use nve hits to your advantage with semi-bulky mons, since it's less risky than switching a snorlax into a salamence dm when it might just use outrage.

 

[haunter]

Personally, I think that good resistances with passable defenses are far preferable to very good defenses but a lack of worthwhile resistances.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. Resistances\immunities are more important than high defences\HP stats in most cases. See Rhyperior with its 115\130 physical defences, or Relicanth with its 100\130, or Probopass with its 60\145\150 defences; if they hadn't such a bad defensive type combination, they'd be way more used than they currently are (poor Rhyperior fell to UU recently). On the other hand, Pokemon like Zapdos, which has "just" 90\85\90 defences is among the most used defensive Pokemon in OU (having a solid electric\flying type combination, and hence only 2 weaknesses).

On the other side of the scale we have Pokemon such as Regirock, Regice, and Articuno, who all have excellent defensive stats, but because of a lack of real resistances cannot break into OU. Articuno and Regice's defensive potential is wasted by Stealth Rock, and neither they nor Regirock possess any really notable resistances.

Yeah, though that doesn't explain the case of Registeel: solid 80\150\150 defences and an excellent typing, but still not enough to be OU. I guess that's just because of its lack of offensive power and reliable recovery.

 

[VKCA]

May I suggest Weezing as another defensive option?

Huge Def stat with helpful resistances to Fighting and Grass, and an immunity to Ground. A reliable healing move in Pain Split, and access to Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Explosion and Sludge Bomb.

A great counter to Breloom, Machamp, Heracross, Flygon, Gyrados, Mamoswine and Scizor.

Weezing makes a great partner with umbreon, resisting all of each other's weakness's while umbreon can pass weezing some wishes. I saw a team a while ago with a sunnyday weezing so umbreon could use moon light well weezing used fb. Any moderately powerful special moves can easily be handled by ubreon.

 

[Coronis]

I actually think there is a point here that has been lightly touched upon, but is very important. Reliable Recovery. Having recovery is essential for a good defensive pokemon. This is the problem for a pokemon such as Registeel, without much offensive power, how can it stop something like SD Lucario setting up? However Rest can be utilized very effectively by pokemon such as CMCune or Curselax. It depends onthe thpe of pokemon you are using, set up pokemon usually have boosted offenses, as well as defences and can use sleep talk to damage foes.

Right now, i do believe that resistances>defenses. Take a look at Registeel, it has great defenses, but common weaknesses to ground and fighting really hurt it.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

Since no-one else is contributing walling combos, I guess I'll give you another one.

Vaporeon and Gliscor is quite a efficient combo that can easily fit on more defensive teams. They can counter a large number of offensive threats such as Infernape and Lucario. The synergy between them is great too. Vaporeon can spell the doom of offensive teams while Gliscor can use Taunt to efficiently shut down stall teams. They also resist most of each other's weaknesses. Vaporeon laughs at the Water and Ice attacks directed at Gliscor, while Gliscor easily takes Electric attacks meant to destroy Vaporeon. While Grass attacks do hit Gliscor for neutral damage, the most common Grass attack, Grass Knot doesn't do much damage to Vaporeon.

 

[noob3]

Now that Roserade is UU, I wouldn't put much investment into Vaporeon+Gliscor. Rose's Leaf Storm OHKOs both if I'm not mistaken.

What's the point of a two pokemon combo? Is there some 2v2 competition that you are getting prepared for? Pokemon is 4 or 6 pokemon, not 2.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

What's the point of a two pokemon combo? Is there some 2v2 competition that you are getting prepared for? Pokemon is 4 or 6 pokemon, not 2.

...You cannot be fucking serious. People use two Pokemon combos on teams all the time, and this is in 1 on 1 Pokemon play, there aren't many 2 on 2 players. 2 Pokemon combos are designed so that the Pokemon deal with each others threats and have good synergy. Giving the argument that Pokemon teams are larger than two suggests that we need 6 Pokemon walling combos. But those are teams, not combos.

 

[Ericcc]

IMHO, The #1 wall in the current metagame is Suicune. I HATE battling those things.

Sets up CM, sweeps a team if unprepared(and its meant to be a wall! >_>)
Rest Talkers are the worst, because Toxistall won't work on them.
Roarers/Whirlwinders don't work because they aren't usually specially defensive (think of Skarmory, Swampert, Hippowdon) and they can get OHKO'd if the Suicune has a few CM's under its belt.

As for duo-defensive strategies, I dont think theres any better than Dragon + Steel (Is it just me or do most OU teams nowadays seem to have a Latias+Heatran+Scizor???)

Theres my input on this little topic ;D

 

[mtr]

Imagine selecting between these two for the purpose of a physically defensive tank. (@Colonel M: don't give me crap for this. You know I'm right.)

Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 244 HP/184 Def/82 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Avalanche
---

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 242 HP/216 Def/52 SAtk
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect
---

Rhyperior is has better defensive stats than Swampert, and can hit harder with its STAB moves. So why is the Swampert set a standard that has been used since the dawn of RSE and the Rhyperior set an afterthought that one could argue should be moved to the OO section of the analysis? The simple answer: typing. Swampert's only weakness is to a type that has otherwise horrendous coverage in OU play, while Rhyperior bears gaping weaknesses to Fighting, Ground, Water, and Ice moves, who otherwise have excellent coverage. Teams have to go out of their way to defeat Swampert, often incorporating an odd HP Grass on Zapdos or Heatran or the like. Against some teams, Rhyperior has trouble even entering the field of play. Typing plays a massive role in deciding what sets are hot and what are not, and it is certainly the final arbiter in deciding if a Pokemon is defensively viable. Would an RSE Blissey have had any use over Snorlax if it were a Water-type? A CM Raikou could blast through it after a few Calm Minds rather than being utterly walled and defeated.

 

[IcyMan28]

Resistances are definitely superior, IMO. If you just look at offensive teams, you'll see that many off them play through resistances, evading KOs from powerful moves that would otherwise easily wear down and KO walls.

In general, the best defense depends on not one of resistances vs. stats, but a combination of the two. For example, Cresselia is much bulkier than Latias, but without the multiple resists granted by Latias' dragon typing, Cresselia is being worn down much more easily, especially without reliable recovery.

Personally, I think Suicune is the best "defensive" pokemon these days. Its status as a water type means that it carries only 2 weaknesses, both typically special-based, and a decent set of resists. When combined with base 115 defenses, base 100 HP, and a nice base 85 speed (speed can be important for a wall), and you've got a pokemon that can easily bring the game to a screeching halt, reverse direction with Calm Mind + ResTalk, and finish the game in your favor.

 

[TSPhoenix]

I think one of the biggest thing defensive Pokemon have going for it is instant recovery. Swampert can only wall for so long, while Skarmory can easily recover its health. Suicune can take a real beating but then must resort to Rest in order to heal itself.

I'm going to have to disagree here, while its near essential for Blissey (short of Natural Cure resting), of the three Pokemon mentioned, in DP Skarmory has the least survivability from my experience.

Resistances are important, but IMO not having any glaring weaknesses is even more important. Sure a 4x weakness to Grass is not good, but it is Swampert's only weakness and fairly easy to work around. It is much better than being weak to Fire and Electric moves which are way more common. Swampert as a Lead can setup SR, whack most leads fairly hard and Toxic troublemakers. Then it can switchin multiple times thanks to a useful Rock, Fire and Steel resistances as well as an Electric immunity aand gets a hit or two in with EQ/IB or Toxic a threat. Swampert's consistently good performance outweighs the fact it can't recover IMO, and its useful typing contributes to that greatly.

Suicune, while now no longer having "no physical weaknesses" is still very threatening against anything slower than it with a RestTalk set. If you can't 2HKO or finish it with Explosion/priority it can sweep.

Skarm on the otherhand while still fantastic defensively, isn't much of an offensive threat, so hard hitters can come in and knock off large chunks of its HP with neutral attacks like Close Combat and thanks to its typing can't afford to Roost it off and risks being 2HKOed and if you lack a Ghost the switchin will take another CC to the face. Swampert on the other hand can take a CC and hit back hard.

In short if a Pokemon is somewhat offensively threatening (Swampy EQ/Suicune Surf hurts) then it can get away without it, however things like Blissey and Skarm who can't really threaten things need reliable recovery in order to be useful.

I think Lucario is a prime example of this. Lucario is often 2HKOed by most even neutral attacks, yet because of its myriad of resistances it can even counter a lot of Pokemon, such as Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor, most Pokemon would trend switching into. Although Lucario is not a defensive Pokemon, it still performs the role of one pretty well in a couple cases.

Yeah its 4x Rock resistance is very nice, letting it come in on the strongest of CB rock attacks, Swords Dance and sweep.

Actually makes you realise the importance of speed even for defensive pokes. For instance Bulky Zapdos' speed can often result in it taking one less hit than a slower wall would have. In Lucario's case it needs only take one attack on the switch and because of its speed scares off opposing TTars.

Would an RSE Blissey have had any use over Snorlax if it were a Water-type? A CM Raikou could blast through it after a few Calm Minds rather than being utterly walled and defeated.

I have to agree with this, its not so much what Blissey resists that is important, but its weaknesses or lack thereof. Generally speaking with Blissey you know when a Fighting-type move is coming. With the pokes that are 4x weak to Ice, as long as you predict that or a Dragon move you'll be fine.

That said Water's weaknesses would hinder Blissey significantly, so I guess its a combination of all the above to give "favourable typing" for the role of that Pokemon.

I'd love to see stats on what moves kill Pokemon the most often, it'd be very interesting to see. Is it possible to get these kind of stats from Shoddy?

 

[akarias]

The most effective mixed wall is shuckle, who works purely off of resistances. Even with SR on the field shuckle is able to wall mixmence, dd mence, all latias, etc. entirely. Shuckle+skarmory works well has a pure defensive core since shuckle+SS can whether almost any special attack and skarm beats out most rock and steel types. Shuckle+swampert works well too, for the same reason, though swampert kinda sucks on pure stall teams (tspikes own him too much). No one can set up on shuckle and he reliably knocks off and sets up SR, and with rest is immune to status.

The reason hippowdon isn't used that much isn't because of its lack of resistances. It's because hippowdon has a weakness to water, which means it's gyara weak, an inherently very poor thing to have. That's the same reason skarmory works. It isn't because of its resistances, so much of its lack okf weaknesses.

The main reason skarm bliss doesn't work anymore is cuz there are so many good wallbreakers nowadays. Mixmence, infernape, exploding heatrans. Plus ofc lucario and even SD scizor make it hard.

 

[mtr]

The most effective mixed wall is shuckle, who works purely off of resistances. Even with SR on the field shuckle is able to wall mixmence, dd mence, all latias, etc. entirely. Shuckle+skarmory works well has a pure defensive core since shuckle+SS can whether almost any special attack and skarm beats out most rock and steel types. Shuckle+swampert works well too, for the same reason, though swampert kinda sucks on pure stall teams (tspikes own him too much). No one can set up on shuckle and he reliably knocks off and sets up SR, and with rest is immune to status.

The reason hippowdon isn't used that much isn't because of its lack of resistances. It's because hippowdon has a weakness to water, which means it's gyara weak, an inherently very poor thing to have. That's the same reason skarmory works. It isn't because of its resistances, so much of its lack okf weaknesses.

The main reason skarm bliss doesn't work anymore is cuz there are so many good wallbreakers nowadays. Mixmence, infernape, exploding heatrans. Plus ofc lucario and even SD scizor make it hard.

I've always been disappointed by Shuckle simply because of his poor typing, vulnerability to threats like Scizor and Gyarados, and inability to phaze or do anything to help the team besides Encore. The members of a stall team draw their strength from the team, and such is not true for Shuckle.

Hippowdon is the traditional stall lead, and will always be a great option for leading. I've always found mono-Ground to be a great type despite the Gyarados weakness, which can be covered up by Rotom-A, Skarmory, and Celebi. mono-Ground gives few weaknesses, and practically nil physical weaknesses, which all combines to make Hippowdon a surprisingly potent physical wall. I mean, Blissey is great (besides the stats) because of its lack of weaknesses on the special side, and Hippowdon doesn't have too many physical weaknesses either.

SkarmBliss will live forever, simply because Infernape and Mixmence can be checked quite easily. When dealing with what you think is a Mixmence, simply make your initial switch-in Blissey rather than Hippowdon. After Blissey takes lol damage from Draco Meteor, Hippowdon can wall the crap out of Mixmence, who will proceed to die from residual damage. Infernape suffers against Starmie, Tentacruel, and Vaporeon, all of whom are quite common on stall or defensive teams.