CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 12b - Complete Movepool Poll 2

[beej]

Down to three. Vote for the movepool you think best suits this CAP!

scuttle scuttle

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Name: Krilowatt
Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Ability: Trace
Ability: Magic Guard

Submissions:

Admiral_Korski

Deck Knight

Jibaku

----

Rules:

We will not allow posts in this topic such as "I voted Movepool." Put some substance into your post. This means that you need to back up your post with reasoning or you will be infracted.

No being a Negative Nancy. As in, don't post complaining about how all the movepools suck or how your submission didn't get in. CAP is designed in a way that inherently doesn't give everybody what they want, so quit complaining.


I would also like to note that the movepools in this slate may all look the same on the surface, but this tends to be true for almost all movepools. If you take the time to look into what each of them have to offer, you will notice key differences that make this a tougher decision that you would think. I strongly urge you to look into what you're voting for, because if you don't know why you're voting for a movepool other than a name, you might as well be voting randomly.

This is last competitive thing we need to decide, guys. Krilowatt is almost done. Happy voting!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I voted for Jibaku's because of a few things that it has going for it over Korski's.

• Aqua Jet: Sorry, I don't care for Vacuum Wave, I want a STAB priority move so it's actually useful. Jibaku has this, Korski does not.
• Cooler Level-Up Movepool: Generally not a fan of the double-moves at a given level that Korski's movepool has. I also really don't like it having Hydro Cannon, since that's something I feel should stay on the starter Pokemon only. The whole progression of Korski's level-up movepool bothers me, whereas I feel that Jibaku's actually looks like a realistic (lol, irony) Pokemon.

That's really it. Both get all of the cool gimmicks I really like, such as CounterCoat, Mind Reader+OHKO, Perish Trapping, Heart Swap, etc. The movepools are very similar at this point, with the exception of Deck's, which I generally do not favor for lacking Ice Beam.

Good luck everyone and congratulations for making it this far!

 

[Raj]

Do none of these have Hydro Pump?

 

[Banryu]

I completely agree with Dusk about Hydrocannon in Korski's levelup movepool, the only purpose of that move is for flavor and flavor-wise, it belongs only on Water-type starters. Is it, I wonder, possible to remove a move like that with the consent of the movepool creator or anything...? >.>

It's super tough at this point because they're all really good...
Despite the flavor problem of Hydrocannon, though, I maintain my vote for Admiral Korski, since I really want CounterCoat to be in Krill's movepool... that's mostly it, really, but there are a couple of other minor things like Draco Meteor and Sucker Punch, which I don't think are competetively (and flavor-wise in the case of DM) necessary...

Good luck and hope it turns out for the best.

-EDIT- Vleeter, Hydro Pump was banned in the movepool discussion. :0 the movepool creators were forbidden to use it in their movepools.

-EDIT AGAIN- @ Rising Dusk: I did, actually, and there were certain things about Korski's movepool that I preferred over Jibaku's, despite it having CounterCoat. >.> Sorry for not specifying in that regard, but please do not assume that I'm not making the decision carefully.

 

[Shock Trooper]

I was torn between Jibaku and Korski's submissions (Ice Beam is important to me), but what pushed me towards voting for Admiral Korski was the exclusion of Superpower, which i did not want to see on this CAP.

 

[Jibaku]

I was torn between Jibaku and Korski's submissions (Ice Beam is important to me), but what pushed me towards voting for Admiral Korski was the exclusion of Superpower, which i did not want to see on this CAP.

Mine doesn't have Superpower...

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Despite the flavor problem of Hydrocannon, though, I maintain my vote for Admiral Korski, since I really want CounterCoat to be in Krill's movepool... that's mostly it

I would like to point out that Jib's movepool definitely includes CounterCoat. On the whole, I must really ask that people read over the entire movepools before submitting their vote. It's really that important.

 

[Seizen]

Still voting Deck Knight.

I like the controversial side of things here: we aren't trying to make a Starmie Mk II, and I agree that it could never happen with the stats Kril has, but by removing Ice Beam and Blizzard, we're forcing a certain flair into movepool design. While 'Mence and Flygon are both 4x weak to Ice, can Ice Beam OHKO them when HP Ice cannot? Obviously, I haven't done the calculations, but it shouldn't matter too much if you're trying to counter one of them.

Secondly, I love all the comments for "anti-Deck" - a lot of them are ignoring the huge boost for the Physical set. I'd have thought that if we are going to be countering a lot, surely we need to advocate a use for a physical set when it would be more appropriate, rather than a typical coverage Special set.

Finally, I like the idea of needing to go into battle with a slightly different design to my previous movepool: it's using your head to play mindgames with the opponent at it's finest, as even a rematch could end up with a completely different result simply because they expect a different Krilowatt.

 

[zarator]

Secondly, I love all the comments for "anti-Deck" - a lot of them are ignoring the huge boost for the Physical set. I'd have thought that if we are going to be countering a lot, surely we need to advocate a use for a physical set when it would be more appropriate, rather than a typical coverage Special set.

This argument reminds me of the people who, when CAP 5 was going on, wanted to make Tech Stratagem viable via removing the Elemental beams from Strata's movepool. Luckily, they stayed, yet the Tech set is very viable (as shown by the statistics). What is the moral of the story? We should not try to make "alternate sets" viable through nerfing. It is not necessary.

Do you really think that, with Sucker Punch, X-Scissor, Earthquake and maybe Aqua Jet, the physical movepool is definitely outclassed by the special counterpart? I don't think so.

 

[Phi]

Deck Knight's movepool just meshes the best for me. The deal breaker for me is Superpower, because otherwise Blissey becomes way too easy of a switch-in for Krilowatt. I understand that with Heart Swap it is especially devastating, but at that point you've given up two moves for a Trick that only works one time on an opponent that's switched in before you're forced to take at least one negative boost. Otherwise, yeah, it's lacking Ice Beam, though what does it really complements his STAB too well. Basically, two of the types it covers are better covered by its STABs (Flying and Ground), whereas Overheat, Draco Meteor, and to a lesser extent, Signal Beam and X-Scissor all hit the Grass and Dragon types that resist his STAB combination without hitting both types at once. I especially like that super effective Draco Meteor hits as hard as 4x effective Hidden Power Ice, which means Krilowatt needs to choose between hitting all dragons equally hard on the special side with a drawback, or hitting Salamence and Flygon without drawback and being left semi-helpless against Latias. I just feel like Deck Knight's is going to lead to the largest variety of movesets.
I also like all the priority it has, which combined with Draco Meteor/Overheat/Superpower will basically allow Krilowatt to play pretty cool mindgames with Heart Swap.

 

[Matthew]

Voting Deck Knight

Looking at Deck's movepool I see a decent balance of strong physical moves and special moves. This let's us customize Krill to do most any situation we want. "Do we need to get rid of Blissey? Use SuperPower! Do we need to get rid of xyz, use this!" I think it helps achieve the concept far better than the other applicants. Though no offense to Jibaku and Korski, their movepools were very good too. In the end the thing that pushed Deck's ahead was SuperPower, to be perfectly honest.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

ended up voting for jibaku. very close between jibs and admiral_k though.

sorry deck, i just think this cap needs ice beam. ballsy move but i don't think it will pay off this time. also i really hate superpower :(

the main difference between jibaku and adm_k is the flavour and the priority moves, as rising_dusk outlined. both great; i would settle for either.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Was looking for the presence of Imprison and the absence of Draco Meteor and Outrage. Turns out all 3 sets have Imprison, near as I can tell, but Korski's is the only one without the uber-powerful Dragon moves....actually, looking more closely, Jibaku's isolates Meteor as well, but the lack of other competitive moves in the same vein being egg move-only still opens up the possibility of fitting it onto any full-offensive set. That over-accessibility is the only thing that keeps me from shifting my vote.

 

[tennisace]

little bit i'd like to clear up:

neutral surf does 1.5 * 95 = 142.5 bp
neutral thunderbolt does 1.5 * 95 = 142.5 bp
neutral draco meteor does 140 bp + a nice -2 drop in spa
neutral waterfall does 1.5 * 80 = 120 bp
neutral thunderpunch does 1.5 * 75 = 112.5 bp
neutral outrage does 120 bp + locked in for 2-3 turns + confusion after

I've been too busy to respond but the reason Outrage / Draco Meteor are worth it in today's metagame is because dragons get stab, making them much more powerful than other options.

 

[Str0ngbad]

Voting Deck Knight again. I believe that his movepool will encourage the most creative and diverse movesets. Dragon moves are NOT a problem competitively and I feel that Ice Beam being nerfed will encourage the physical set or diversity with the special set. You don't lose coverage on anything as he gave us plenty of other options to handle the same threats that Ice deals with. We are simply having to focus in on our targets more specifically. Hello, concept. (LOVE the gimmick options too.)

EDIT: The arguments against Deck's submission are really non-existent. People keep saying they really want Ice Beam but do not back that up with any half decent reasoning other than flavor (every water poke but Magicrap...) Does anyone really disagree that its removal promotes the concept?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

There is only one case that can be made for not having Ice Beam on movepools, and it was made by Deck when he submitted his movepool.

My reasoning is that I did not want there to be a "standard" Krilowatt set.

I would then like to point out that there are other Pokemon with similar problems; as in, there are other special attackers that lack Ice Beam and really want it. The solution for these special attackers always ends up being Hidden Power Ice. If you remove Ice Beam and Blizzard, you just force the "standard set" to change, you do not eliminate it. Now it's Surf, Thunderbolt, HPIce, <Filler>. It's the same with many other Water-type Pokemon that lack Thunderbolt but want to sweep. You get Surf, HPElectric, Ice Beam, <Filler>.

You cannot get rid of a standard set by removing Ice-type attacks, and therefore the primary case against having Ice Beam in the first place is completely nullified. Removing Ice Beam serves only one net purpose on Krilowatt's movepool, and that is to make it more difficult for it to do it's job. Now it relies on a 70BP move instead of a 95BP one. That's it.

 

[Deck Knight]

Obviously supporting my own work here. I made a lot of decisions I knew would be unpopular and I'm sticking to them.

To be honest I'm actually surprised I lasted past the first movepool poll. I appreciate all the work that Jibaku and Admiral Korski put into there movepools, but there's a reason I singled out Ice Beam/Blizzard and Counter/Mirror Coat for features. Yeah, they're notable moves, but my primary reasons for opposing them are concept-driven.

May the best movepool win, but I'm not going to be shocked when the "gimmick" CounterCoat set wreaks havoc on everything but stat-up sweepers. Immunity to residual damage (Magic Guard) combined with those two moves makes that set a menace. Stall can't even touch it as a bonus, and as a last Pokemon the two moves have 64 PP between them, plus the number of turns you could stall out with Rest given they'd need direct attacks to overcome a likely PP advantage. Considering Krilowatt can reach Wobbuffett-esque HP levels (506 Max vs. 528 on standard 28 HP Wobba), the only thing keeping it from total menace is no Encore and a lack of trapping. Fortunately Whirlpool (on both movepools) is temporary trapping, but it can have the same effect, and Encore was banned.

In either case, I doubt with 443 HP before investment that the double HP retaliation moves aren't going to find a welcoming home, especially since they aren't separated in the breeding schema.

I would then like to point out that there are other Pokemon with similar problems; as in, there are other special attackers that lack Ice Beam and really want it. The solution for these special attackers always ends up being Hidden Power Ice. If you remove Ice Beam and Blizzard, you just force the "standard set" to change, you do not eliminate it. Now it's Surf, Thunderbolt, HPIce, <Filler>. It's the same with many other Water-type Pokemon that lack Thunderbolt but want to sweep. You get Surf, HPElectric, Ice Beam, <Filler>.

You cannot get rid of a standard set by removing Ice-type attacks, and therefore the primary case against having Ice Beam in the first place is completely nullified. Removing Ice Beam serves only one net purpose on Krilowatt's movepool, and that is to make it more difficult for it to do it's job. Now it relies on a 70BP move instead of a 95BP one. That's it.

The problem with that logic is that HP Electric (even UnSTAB, of all things) is used as a substitute for Thunderbolt for one Pokemon and one Pokemon only: Gyarados. HP Ice may still hack it against Salamence/Flygon/Dragonite/Gliscor, but it does laughable damage to Celebi, Latias, et al. A "standard set" with HP Ice is going to fall flat on its face, that's the difference between 70 BP and 95. You can coast on 70 when you can hit something 4x with it, you can't if you're going 2x. Draco Meteor hits just as hard as HP Ice on the 4x weak Dragon targets, while Surf hits Gliscor. Overheat has double HP Ice's power vs. Celebi and bulky grassers and co. Krilowatt in no way yearns for Ice Beam, its exclusion fulfills the concept by allowing a cadre of moves with different coverages in the place of that single move (and its higher power/lower acc counterpart). Krilowatt has multiple means to dispatch dangerous Grass and Dragon types that resist both its STABs separately.

Furthermore, this combination of attacking types is only hampered on the Special set. I cannot tell you how many complaints I have heard about lacking "Ice moves" despite Krilowatt possessing all of them except the featured IB/Bliz exclusion and tweener moves like Aurora Beam and the laughable Icicle Spear. Effectively what I want to do is force special sets to choose between HP Ice (Salamence & co.) and HP Grass (Swampert). Given that the answer to which is a greater threat depends entirely on the rest of the team, you will choose the HP most sensitive to that need. Because I have filled out pretty much every other slot with a competitive level special attack, the only other HP you might consider is HP Fire if you aren't fond of Overheat's SpA drop. Combine this with all the support options at Krilowatts disposal and I fully expect multiple sets, both serious and gimmicky, on both sides of the physical/special spectrum to arise. The Physical side of Krilowatt's movepool has no such problem, save I have given Fire Punch similar treatment to Ice Beam/Blizzard.

I don't believe in coddling the current OU participants by making our CAPs predictable. Then it's the job of the playtesters to find a counter, and I like to keep it that way. Built in standardization does not adhere to my interpretation of the concept. You build in standardization for sweepers, walls, and tanks. This CAP is supposed to be unpredictable enough where it could be a threat to any one of those groups. I've probably gone on long enough, so I'll edit in this last bit too: Our original concept was to test the viability of defensive diversity. If we end up with a product that has a "special breaker" set with something to the effect of Magic Guard Krilowatt @ Life Orb, Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Overheat, I will consider the concept to have been lost at the end. A few threads ago we were getting all riled up over Bug Moves doing too much to threaten Celebi. Now we simply must have maximum coverage? What happened?

 

[Losa]

Jibaku for me. Aqua Jet, Ice Beam and no Superpower sealed the deal. Excluding Ice Beam just seems a bit weird as pretty much all water types get it.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

Again, everyone claims Ice Beam is important or vital, but no one can explain why having a standard BoltBeam set is more important than fitting the concept. Again, I must comment that, with all flavor aside, Deck Knight's is the only movepool that has gone out of it's way to embrace the concept: the idea of being able to counter any group, but not several at once. Everything you could hit with Icebeam, you can still counter with Deck Knight's Movepool.

The only thing remotely broken in DK's set is that it would be able to 2-hit KO everything with Mind Reader and Guillotine. And by everything, I mean non-ghosts, anything without Detect/Protect, anything that wouldn't kill it first, anything dumb enough to stay in, and anything that wouldn't be OHKO'd by a STAB move first anyway. And OHKO clauses take care of that. Jibaku's moveset has the same "downfall".

Now that Deck has pointed it out, it seems clear that Shodders (?) won't have to worry about Surf/Bolt/Beam being the standard set. The standard set will probably be Counter/Coat, possibly with Heart Swap/STAB (to handle the stat boosters Deck Knight mentioned as potential counters to the set), or Rest for recovery, or Whirlpool for trapping. Awesome. That is sooo much better than having half a dozen of the unpredictable niche BluffWatt sets provided by Deck Knight's movepool.

I'm not supporting Deck Knight because he's been a winner in the past. I'm supporting him because he's able to counter every (legitimate) argument ever brought against his move set with solid logic. He did the math when he submitted the stat spread, and it shows in his well-reasoned responses. I voted Deck Knight because I favor the concept and variety over flavor and predictability.

I'm seeing three basic voting motivations in this thread. First places flavor as a priority. Second places easy metagame success of Krilowatt as a priority. And third places CAP 10 concept and metagame experimentation as a priority. It's debatable that all three submissions fit the first two motivations. But if you claim the third as your motivation and vote against Deck Knight, please answer any one of the following:

Please: Find me a CAP/OU threat that is countered by AK/Jibaku's submission that is not countered by Deck Knight's, then tell me again how Ice Beam is required. Please: Find me a move set in Deck Knight's submission that counters more threats at once than is capable by Bolt/Beam or another set available in AK/Jibaku's submission. Please: Tell me how AK/Jibaku's submission fits the original CAP10 concept better than Deck Knight's.

 

[Raikaria]

little bit i'd like to clear up:

neutral surf does 1.5 * 95 = 142.5 bp
neutral thunderbolt does 1.5 * 95 = 142.5 bp
neutral draco meteor does 140 bp + a nice -2 drop in spa
neutral waterfall does 1.5 * 80 = 120 bp
neutral thunderpunch does 1.5 * 75 = 112.5 bp
neutral outrage does 120 bp + locked in for 2-3 turns + confusion after

I've been too busy to respond but the reason Outrage / Draco Meteor are worth it in today's metagame is because dragons get stab, making them much more powerful than other options.

So, Draco Meteor is only 2.5 Base Power off the STABs? This is even more fuel to my fire of not allowing it. Against Krillowatt, thigs ARE going to switch, usually to a counter/check.

Now, which is better to blindly fire off to deal some damage? A random Surf, Thunderbolt, or a Draco Meteor?

Water Type Super-Effectives:
Aerodactyl, Gliscor, Heatran, Infernape, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, Tyranitar [7]

Water is resisted by:
Breloom, Celebi, Dragonite, Empoleon, Gyarados, Kingdra [x4], Latias, Salamance, Starmie, Suicune, Tentacruel, Roserade [12 Resists, 1 being x4]

Immune to Water:
Vaporeon [Water Absorb]

Ratio:
1: 2 that you'll be better off. [1/3 chance]

Electric-Type Super Effectives:
Aerodactyl, Gyrarados, Starmie, Suicune, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Togekiss, Skarmory, Ninjask [9]

Electric Type is Resisted by:
Breloom, Celebi, Magnezone, Rotom-A, Latias, Roserade [5]

Immunities:
Electvire, Flygon, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Jolteon, Mamoswine, Swampert [7]

Ratio:
3 : 4, looks better than water on the face of things... then you realise Immunites are worse than Resists.

Draco-Meteor Super Effectives:
Dragonite, Flygon, Kingdra, Latias, Salamance [5]

Draco Meteor is Resisted By:
Brongzong, Emploeon, Foretress, Heatran, Jirachi, Magnezone, Scizor, Skarmory, Lucario, Metagross [10]

Ratio:
1 : 2 The exact same as Water.

So, Electric is certainly worse to 'Switch-in-spam' then Draco Meteor, but Water and DM are tied, according to Ratios. So why is Draco Meteor better?

Why Draco Meteor makes up for that 2.5 BP
NO Immunities or x4 Resists. Those count for more than a x2 Resist.

Some things have no business switching into Krillowatt anyway. Skarmory won't be switching in in fear of Thunderbolts same with Empoleon and Gyarados, nor Heatran of Surfs. Most Bulky-waters, barring Gyarados, however, are willing to come in and take a Thunderbolt. Suicune comes to mind instantly, as does Vapreon Wishstalling it. Infernape?! This thing is a walking Infernape counter, as much as Latias is.

Then, you bear in mind some of the things hit SE by Krillowatt's Surf have no business switching in, unlike the dragons. Areodactyl's a suicide lead, so it's null, and, as mentioned before, no SANE Heatran is coming in on Krill.

Odds are they're switching to a counter, and when that happens, especially if it's Krill's first time out, you can BET it's a Water or Electric Resist. Krill will also probobly have to switch out afterwards, making the Sp.Attack drop moot.

Finally, some of the names on the Water list are not big players in OU. Mamoswine? Hippowdon's not that common either. On the other hand, the dragons, bar maybe Kingdra and Dragonite, are seen EVERYWHERE, and you can be sure Scarfgon will be attempting to come in on Krill.

So, basically, despite having 2.5 Base Power Less, Draco Meteor remains Krill's best 'Come in and spam on the inevitable switch' move.

Due to this, I do not support any movepool with Draco Meteor, and hence, voted the Admiral again.

 

[Sceats]

What you seem to be forgetting (unless i missed something) is that it leaves you with -2 special attack. Yes you can use heartswap, however thats another highly competed moveslot gone.

I voted dk. I agree with much of his above reasoning, especially concerning counter coat and that icebeam isnt needed.

 

[neverender1862]

I vote for Deck Knight's submission.

The only thing I really have an issue with the movepools is Mind Reader/Lock-On + Zap Cannon. Then again, it's very predictable, and easy to stop once you figure it out. OHKO Clause is almost always on anyway, so Mind Reader + Guillotine isn't much of a problem.

Other than that, without Ice Beam, it won't be relying too much on coverage to counter anything. That way, I feel that it won't be countering too much just based on "super-effectivity". Hidden Power Ice should be fine.

Also, I like the "neat tricks" from his movepool. Imprison, Me First, Worry Seed, among others, look great on paper, and hopefully would be great when put into practice.

I think that his movepool is not going overboard, while giving Krillowatt a good number of options to use for countering.

 

[zarator]

Guys, if you really think that unSTABbed Draco Meteor is that good, can someone explain me why it isn't used AT ALL on Jirachi? He has better SpA than Krilowatt, worse STAB (so it would have even more reason to fire off neutral Draco Meteors, not having wide neutral STABs like Water or Electric), yet Draco Meteor Jirachi is almost non-existant. If it were the "omg almost broken" move you claim, I guess Jirachi would use it sometimes.

 

[SJCrew]

Jirachi just received it recently and some people probably don't even know he has it. Besides, it can't abuse Heart Swap to get rid of the Sp. Attack drop.

 

[supermarth64]

Jirachi just received it recently and some people probably don't even know he has it. Besides, it can't abuse Heart Swap to get rid of the Sp. Attack drop.

Draco Meteor: 140 Base Power
Heart Swap: 0 Base Power
Total: 140 Base Power, -2 Special Attack, which doesn't matter because Krillowatt should be hit by Earthquake or something.

vs.

Resisted Surf: 71.25 Base Power
Resisted Surf: 71.25 Base Power
Total: 142.5 Base Power.