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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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Copy Cat
Ni don't really care if venusuar is band or not. Yet, I acknowledge that is a good mon. It has 2 advantages over other sleep boosters 1 although still unreliable he has better accuracy and 2 he has the power to do something with that boost. Ninetails and poliwrath(bar focus punch) although cool lack power to handle some pokemon in the clutch of battle. Not to mention that the hypnosis slots are better used for hp rock and encore respectively.
Edit: personally I find leafeon far more troublesome then venusaur. Yet not quite broken
Edit: personally I find leafeon far more troublesome then venusaur. Yet not quite broken
1. Comparison to other BLs/Ubers is useless. Salamence was (IMO anyway) less broken than anything else that has been banned. This argument didn't work on him. Why should it work on Venusaur?
2. Not all Sleep Powders are equal, any more than Sand Veil is equal on Gliscor and Garchomp. For Gliscor, Sand Veil is a nice bonus. For Garchomp, it's a slap in the opponent's face. The effectiveness of Garchomp/Venusaur makes it an even more effective user of Sand Veil / Sleep Powder, which in turn may push it further over the edge.
3. The arguments being made are (probably... I can't actually speak for Eo) relative to the environment. I used an argument similar to 1. against Manaphy's ban, but that was in a metagame with Latias unbanned and in conjunction with other factors. What Eo might have considered fine in the Raikou/Froslass environment can perfectly well be broken in this one.
... oh yeah I guess I'm still following this forum
2. Not all Sleep Powders are equal, any more than Sand Veil is equal on Gliscor and Garchomp. For Gliscor, Sand Veil is a nice bonus. For Garchomp, it's a slap in the opponent's face. The effectiveness of Garchomp/Venusaur makes it an even more effective user of Sand Veil / Sleep Powder, which in turn may push it further over the edge.
3. The arguments being made are (probably... I can't actually speak for Eo) relative to the environment. I used an argument similar to 1. against Manaphy's ban, but that was in a metagame with Latias unbanned and in conjunction with other factors. What Eo might have considered fine in the Raikou/Froslass environment can perfectly well be broken in this one.
... oh yeah I guess I'm still following this forum
I'm loving subseed Venusaur. Not only does it screw with Rain teams, but is just annoying in general should you have something to check opposing Venusaur and Mismagius. I've stalled out at least 2 Pokemon with it in each game I played, but I only played like 7 matches with it. I honestly don't think it's broken, but extremely good since it's easy to build a team around for general support, not to mention its common partners have more general uses outside just having good resistances when paired up with Venusaur.
Another great pokemon I've been trying out yesterday was Specially defensive arcanine (Venusaur also managed to stall this one out a few minutes ago :p). The fact it can beat most Milotic one on one is just amazing as I paired it with Steelix and Leafeon. The core was really strong, at first...
Another great pokemon I've been trying out yesterday was Specially defensive arcanine (Venusaur also managed to stall this one out a few minutes ago :p). The fact it can beat most Milotic one on one is just amazing as I paired it with Steelix and Leafeon. The core was really strong, at first...
Venusaur is a tough suspect to weigh in on in my opinion. I'm not sure whether it qualifies as bl, though I tend to lean towards uu because it clearly isn't nearly as broken (if it is even broken) as some of our former suspects. The uu proponents insist that many things are indeed safe switches to Venu, but Sleep Powder makes practically anything switchin risky because you risk being incapacitated. What's more, if you assume it's running one set and it turns out to be another, then the pokemon you sacrificed to Sleep Powder is basically worthless. For example, let's say I have Tangrowth and Registeel on my team. In theory, the two of them counter all of Venusaur's sets. If I let Tangrowth get slept and Venu turns out to be a SD variant, then I lose and likewise if I let Registeel take the sleep and it's the special LO set. I firmly believe that once you figure out his set, Venusaur can be countered. But at what cost? The aspect that makes Venusaur suspect-worthy is that by the time you figure out the set, you may have sacrificed your counter for one or more of his sets.
That's why I feel it may be BL-worthy. On the other hand, I don't think it qualifies as BL because every set is counterable. In my experiences battling against Venusaur the hardest turns to face it are the initial turns. It involves a certain amount of guesswork, but figuring out Venu's set is the key to stopping it. This is easier said than done due to the sheer number of sets that Venusaur can run effectively, but I can usually determine the set by looking at damage rolls (both from and against it) and switching around. I haven't really used Venu extensively this round, as it doesn't really appeal to me, but I've laddered quite a bit and I haven't found it obviously broken.
That's why I feel it may be BL-worthy. On the other hand, I don't think it qualifies as BL because every set is counterable. In my experiences battling against Venusaur the hardest turns to face it are the initial turns. It involves a certain amount of guesswork, but figuring out Venu's set is the key to stopping it. This is easier said than done due to the sheer number of sets that Venusaur can run effectively, but I can usually determine the set by looking at damage rolls (both from and against it) and switching around. I haven't really used Venu extensively this round, as it doesn't really appeal to me, but I've laddered quite a bit and I haven't found it obviously broken.
i'm going to need you to elaborate on that because eo's logic is perfectly fine and a majority of the player base who want venusaur in BL share the same idea as him. the reasonings behind the status of venusaur being bl are perfectly viable reasonings and they are not even close to absurd to be considered "baffling". i am towards venusaur being bl and in case you were wondering, my nomination can be found here. you can flesh out my arguments in my nomination and tell me which one "baffles" you, i'll be glad to respond back.
I absolutely love the amount of thought in this post, every single one of your points are so well covered by flawless arguments that it leads me to dismal due to me thinking I'll never be like you. Bravo.
Now to the serious part, can you possibly explain why his logic baffles you? I might not agree at all with him regarding Venusaur's tiering, but I sure as hell know where he's coming from and also know it isn't that absurd to consider moving Venusaur to another tier. Also, AFAIK, Bad Ass'; Franky's and Eo's arguments are basically the same, so I suppose all of them put up arguments that baffle you.
I was just making an offhand comment regarding Banedon's second point. I do remember Eo being one of the few "Raikou for UU" supporters and the argument he proposes for Venusaur being broken is awfully similar to the one he proposes for Raikou being UU.
I don't think that needing two Pokemon to stop in most cases makes him more broken than Raikou, who managed to wreak even more havoc than that. I mean, LO/Shuca were a pain in the ass, but SubCM steamrolled teams. Venusaur has served me well, but it's simply not on the same level. Raikou is about the closest to the borderline of broken we can get in terms of BLs and I think voting Venusaur out in terms of unpredictability and versatility would tiptoe right over it.
I don't think that needing two Pokemon to stop in most cases makes him more broken than Raikou, who managed to wreak even more havoc than that. I mean, LO/Shuca were a pain in the ass, but SubCM steamrolled teams. Venusaur has served me well, but it's simply not on the same level. Raikou is about the closest to the borderline of broken we can get in terms of BLs and I think voting Venusaur out in terms of unpredictability and versatility would tiptoe right over it.
Raikou couldn't put one of its counters to sleep, thus virtually eliminating it for great part of the match; which would leave you with only one counter. Until you figure out what set it's running and what counter is less valuable you might have already lost an important pokémon. This is common knowledge to be honest, and even not supporting a Venusaur ban I gotta say comparing Raikou to Venusaur is completely wrong.
SJCrew, I agree with you that there exist discrepancies between Eo's current nomination and his previous vote, but you're neglecting an important point: intelligent people change their minds. Eo may well have decided by now that Raikou deserves the BL status that it received. Or the basis for his logic may have adapted itself to the current state of the metagame (a switch-oriented one, in short). If Eo and other voters never, ever changed their minds regarding what qualifies as BL and what does not, I would question their validity as voters.
The ability to change one's mind is one of the key components of being a voter in any system for resolving basically any problem. Flexibility is the cornerstone of genius; consistency is the flagship of mediocrity.
The ability to change one's mind is one of the key components of being a voter in any system for resolving basically any problem. Flexibility is the cornerstone of genius; consistency is the flagship of mediocrity.
I had a huge ass post typed up but I hit backspace and the page went back and it got deleted....so...in short:
I don't think Venusaur is BL. It has quite a large amount (approximately 25* pokemon in the top 50) of Pokemon who can reliably switch in and fend it off. Additionally, it has a very large* amount of checks. In fact, Moltres has less counters and checks even when considering Sleep Powder and we aren't even talking about Moltres for BL at this point. Additionally, when compared to Raikou, Venusaur's counters are very viable and great. Raikou's counter list had mons like Quagsire on it, while Venusaur's is mainly Moltres, Arcanine, Registeel, etc. We need to stop saying shit like "well it puts a counter to sleep" when it's just another attack that Venusaur has. For example, Moltres / Blaziken have Fire Blast + 2 coverage moves that 2HKO more Pokemon than Venusaur does with Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Sleep Powder.
*I counted these in the top 50 and had them in my post before it got deleted...so take my word for it...?
Just think of the line that a Pokemon needs to cross to be considered broken. Venusaur does not come close to crossing the line set by Raikou, Froslass, Cresselia, and the like. It is not anywhere near as hard to deal with as any of the current BL Pokemon. Of course, that in itself doesn't prove shit about Venusaur's tiering status, but it puts it in perspective.
All in all, Venusaur is not remotely as difficult to switch into as other Pokemon in this tier are, and it's just a threat that we should have to / can easily deal with.
I don't think Venusaur is BL. It has quite a large amount (approximately 25* pokemon in the top 50) of Pokemon who can reliably switch in and fend it off. Additionally, it has a very large* amount of checks. In fact, Moltres has less counters and checks even when considering Sleep Powder and we aren't even talking about Moltres for BL at this point. Additionally, when compared to Raikou, Venusaur's counters are very viable and great. Raikou's counter list had mons like Quagsire on it, while Venusaur's is mainly Moltres, Arcanine, Registeel, etc. We need to stop saying shit like "well it puts a counter to sleep" when it's just another attack that Venusaur has. For example, Moltres / Blaziken have Fire Blast + 2 coverage moves that 2HKO more Pokemon than Venusaur does with Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Sleep Powder.
*I counted these in the top 50 and had them in my post before it got deleted...so take my word for it...?
Just think of the line that a Pokemon needs to cross to be considered broken. Venusaur does not come close to crossing the line set by Raikou, Froslass, Cresselia, and the like. It is not anywhere near as hard to deal with as any of the current BL Pokemon. Of course, that in itself doesn't prove shit about Venusaur's tiering status, but it puts it in perspective.
All in all, Venusaur is not remotely as difficult to switch into as other Pokemon in this tier are, and it's just a threat that we should have to / can easily deal with.
Sleep Powder has more accuracy than Hypnosis/Grasswhistle, which is likely one of the reasons that those Pokemon don't see as much usage. Those other sleep inducers are also far less versatile than Venusaur. I don't believe Venusaur is BL solely because of Sleep Powder; I believe Sleep Powder is a contributing factor.
You need three Pokemon to cover Venusaur, unless you're content with leaving something asleep.
Furthermore, Raikou was banned anyway, so I was "wrong" in that regard, wasn't I?
venusaur and moltres are not comparable as sweepers - they are completely different in their sweeping approaches. moltres doesn't boast the ability to switch in the game with consistency like venusaur can. venusaur has sets of important resistances to common attacking moves and passable defensive stat on both ends. venusaur sweeps teams with a slower approach with synthesis, albeit it still packs a punch while doing so. moltres holds tremendous power but lacks the defensive typing and important sets of resistances venusaur has.
i'm not a big fan of comparing two different pokemon when you are trying to justify a pokemon's tiering. for your information, raikou's counters were also viable and great: specially defensive venusaur, chansey, steelix, and registeel. raikou is a fantastic sweeper though and will often bypass its soft checks but the main point is it had viable counters like venusaur as well.
the difference between another attack and sleep powder is that sleep powder mitigates prediction games and places an opponent in deep slumber for x amount of turns. sleep powder not only easens predictions, it also provides another pokemon to sweep sufficiently easier. venusaur to me lingers between offensive/support characteristics - it can sweep a significant portion of the metagame and can provide oppurutnies to help another teammate sweep via sleep powder.
Moltres has better defenses, immunity to the most common attack in the game, and resistance to the main attack of the most common Pokemon in the metagame (Venusaur itself). You are flat out incorrect, and to be honest, I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. Sure, "Stealth Rock", but we all know you can keep that off the field if you specifically play for it. It doesn't take away from the fact that Moltres is bulkier and has an easy (if not easier) time switching in.
Anyway, they are quite comparable, as you have shown:
"Moltres has sets of important resistances to [the most] common attacking moves and [more than] passable defensive stats on both ends."Franky said:
Franky said:
"Moltres sweeps teams with a slower approach with synthesis, albeit it still packs a punch while doing so."
The thing is, when you compare them, Moltres seems better (though it isn't). This puts things in perspective at the very least.
1. Venusaur is not a counter for Raikou (very common misconception)franky said:
2. Registeel is a one time check. Once it has less than 75% (without entry hazards!), Raikou actually beats it most of the time.
3. Chansey sucks.
4. Steelix is good. Raikou has one good counter.
Venusaur has a huge list of offensive checks and counters that are threatening as well as many defensive checks that don't suck (and are actually counters, unlike Registeel for Raikou).
After the first line, all you're doing is trying to explain that Sleep is better than attacking because it removes a Pokemon, temporarily, from a battle (where as attacking would result in completely removing a Pokemon from the battle). Moltres is not a prediction heavy sweeper. You literally open with Fire Blast and 1-2HKO something. Venusaur opens(?) with Sleep Powder, sleeps something, and then has to play like a weaker Moltres (in a sweeping sense, not in a playstyle sense).Franky said:
Sleep Powder is one of the most over-glorified moves. It's inaccurate and Sleep only lasts 1-4 turns, meaning if you are faster than something and Sleep it, it will have a decent chance to wake up immediately after your next move.
eo is a riddle to some but he is the kind that makes you feel fuzzy once you realize the logic of it.
his arguments for venusaur are reasonable and at this point, i dont think venu will ever be banned, but at least its the only uu pokemon with an actual case.
sjcrew, in all seriousness, where do you get the nerve to call out eo like that =/. raikou and venusuar are also obviously different, as the latter can sleep and run viable physical sets and has 50% recovery. i think sometimes you need to reconsider what you post.
his arguments for venusaur are reasonable and at this point, i dont think venu will ever be banned, but at least its the only uu pokemon with an actual case.
sjcrew, in all seriousness, where do you get the nerve to call out eo like that =/. raikou and venusuar are also obviously different, as the latter can sleep and run viable physical sets and has 50% recovery. i think sometimes you need to reconsider what you post.
If you want to send Venusaur to BL your also going to have to boot Milotic because those two go hand in hand with each other. If Venu goes away Milotic usage will sore as its lost its best counter.
In turn if you send Milo away after that UU will be raped by high power fire types eg. Moltres.
If you want UU to stay balanced Venusaur has to stay.
In turn if you send Milo away after that UU will be raped by high power fire types eg. Moltres.
If you want UU to stay balanced Venusaur has to stay.
I am not in favor of banning Venusaur, but this reasoning is horrible. If Groudon checks Metagross well, by your logic, we should unban Groudon for the sake of checking Metagross. If one broken Pokemon is the only thing holding another Pokemon back, then that Pokemon is also suspect-worthy.
Please keep this Venusaur BL debate within the boundaries of how Venusaur performs in the UU tier, not about what impact its removal would have.
you practically answered your own question - sr is the main drawback with moltres. how does moltres even sweep easily with sr being so omnipresent in the metagame? unlike venusaur, it can switch in without taking a wooping 50 percent and not have to worry about relying on a spinner to actually help it switch into threats and make use of its resistances. lets be honest here, moltres is one shakey motherfuck and if you are planning to switch in grass-type moves it is tough. moltres is placed out of commision by sleep powder or takes a ton of damage from sludge bomb (57% - 67.3%) pure ohko with sr down. sceptile threatens with rock slide or hp rock, while leafeon damages with double-edge or worse gets a +2 on the switch and removes moltres, torterra rock polishes as it switches or gets hurt by rock slide. its that very reason (sr) why venusaur has a much easier time switching into moves and venusaur shines best at switching into defensive walls (the common milotic) and even stuff like hitmontop. moltres grass-resistance is nothing to boast about since grass-types can actually beat it. the ground resistance is nice however, i'll give you that, but that comes with a hefty price of taking 50 percent from sr.
takes sr damage - imo that should be the cutoff point to their comparison. sr destroys moltres's ability to switch into stuff at pristine condition and threaten them back. (see my grass-type scenarios again).
not true. venusaur mostly uses synthesis primarily on defensive walls, while moltres has a fair amount of difficulty using it in front of offensive grass-types like leafeon, sceptile, and even venusaur. against donphan, you aren't going to risk roosting on a predicted eq. the sr is applying too much pressure for moltres to even sweep with a slow approach because it needs to muscle its way through raw power.
@ raikou's counters
i'm not going to bother quoting that, raikou is deemed bl for that very reason. my point has already been made: it has viable counters like venusaur does. it has soft checks (venusaur, rhyperior, etc) but this is purely dependant on the hidden power. hard counters are steelix, registeel, chansey, dugtrio - all 4 are perfectly viable and not out of picture like that quagsire you mentioned.
it removes a pokemon temporarily and easens predictions. moltres needs to predict the switch in. one situation: assuming it takes the sr damage, and you use fire blast on an azumarill, you are placed in a tight position. if moltres had sleep powder, it can place azumarill out of commission and can attack it with a respective move or even use roost to heal! leaf storm + sludge bomb gains excellent neutral coverage in the tier, and it only needs two attacking moves and sleep powder to tear stuff apart.
@Thund - Sure Offensive Venusaur is 2HKO'd by Ice Beam, but are you really going to stay in and go for the 2HKO? Once Venusaur comes in and eats the Ice Beam, its probably going to sleep you, heal itself, then Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb/Switch out depending on whatever you brought in. The logic is blown if Sleep Powder misses or Sleep Clause is in effect, but LO Leaf Storm is still doing 77.9% - 91.6% to a 248/252 +SpD Milotic. Which is more than enough for another thing to come in, maybe your sweeper that enjoys Milotic out of the picture, and go for a sweep. Ultimately, even if Milotic managed to kill Venusaur, your Milotic is basically mince-meat.
This is mostly why I think Venusaur should be BL under Support. It makes it too easy to blow a team apart and allow something else to come in and wreck shit up once your team has been revealed.
This is mostly why I think Venusaur should be BL under Support. It makes it too easy to blow a team apart and allow something else to come in and wreck shit up once your team has been revealed.
The thing with Trick is that it was enough keep Blissey from switching in readily. Sleep Powder, however, is not your one stop cripple for whatever switch-in, because if you remember correctly, sleep lasts for 1-4 turns while Trick lasts for the entire match (Unless Blissey decides to learn Trick next gen, lol). This is not mention that Sleep Powdering a sleep absorber means absolutely jack shit. Oh, and how does Bronzong handle CB Mence, when CB Fire Fang (lol) does 53.25% - 62.72% to standard tank Bronzong, a clear 2HKO. This is not to mention that Cresselia, like Registeel to Raikou was only a one time check to Mence (Moonlight hardly helps you).
Mmkay, rephrasing:
"The thing with Sleep Powder is that it is enough to keep Registeel from switching in readily. Trick, however, is not your one stop cripple for whatever switch-in, because if you remember correctly, trick locks a Pokemon into one action while Sleep prevents a Pokemon from taking any action (Unless the Pokemon is given Sleep Talk, lol). This is not mention that Tricking a trick absorber like Tyranitar means absolutely jack shit."
My point was that Trick is enough to stop Blissey from switching in readily. How many times did you actually see Latias use Trick?? Not very many. Try switching your Tyranitar into Specs Surf or Draco Meteor, which is a much more commonly seen attack used by Latias. Venusaur, however absolutely needs Sleep Powder to cripple its MANY checks. What happens if you Sleep Registeel (Who I might say can use a RestTalk set with reasonable efficacy)?? Boom, in comes Arcanine. What happens to Venusaur now?? You might go "Well you need 2 checks to Venusaur, therefore it's too much", but if you just make a normal team, you will find that without trying, you are packing multiple counters for Venusaur just by sticking to synergy and that crap.
EDIT: Don't try to be a smartass, it doesn't work.
EDIT: Don't try to be a smartass, it doesn't work.
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