Well, Bpass celebi can avoid Pursuit (but not Scarf Crunch), Def Jellicent can stand a non-band Pursuit, and if you run a choice Tyranitar you may give to your opponent a free setup to stuff like Terrakion (Sub, Rock Polish as examples), Lucario, Scizor and many others. The same for Scizor. What I want to explain is a strategy based on that too clear moves like "trap n sweep" doesn't always work, especially if you're facing an expert opponent, and that's not a reason to consider this "broken". That's what I call "evolution of metagame" and stop this process to make things easier with a ban is not the smartest thing to do.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
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*ahem* I'll have you know that my favorite set to use as Jellicent is the Choice Specs set. It may not have Will-o-Wisp, but I'm pretty sure Energy Ball is enough to break Keldeo's bones. I'm not quite sure how it'd fare against comptetent Tyranitar users, but I'm pretty sure Water Spout has lol'd against it in the past, especially when it attempts to switch in.
Toxicroak is probably the least shaky check, although I'm fairly certain its frailty and the fact there's more to a team than just Keldeo and Tyranitar will cause problems for it (the latter of which probably has Earthquake to deal with Heatran of all things), meaning if a fast Psychic-type is alongside Keldeo then Croak's croaking unless it can OHKO with a Sucker Punch.
HoL's posts kind of reminded of this specific Gen 4 Garchomp meta where every (successful) team followed this rigid protype:
Lead
Garchomp
Garchomp Counter #1
Garchomp Counter #2
Counter of Garchomp's Counter
Spinner and/or Anti-Lead.
Now tell mer, we can play the counter-counter game all day. Whether that's healthy or not is up to your (obvious) interpretation.
Lead
Garchomp
Garchomp Counter #1
Garchomp Counter #2
Counter of Garchomp's Counter
Spinner and/or Anti-Lead.
Now tell mer, we can play the counter-counter game all day. Whether that's healthy or not is up to your (obvious) interpretation.
/B/utterfree hit the nail on the head. Theres indeed a lot more to a keldeo team than just pursuit support. Even if youre prepared to keldtar you can still have problems with rain keldeo not to mention that there are 5 different movesets and several possibilities for the hp of choice. This is what makes keldeo so scary to deal with.
Genesect and Tornadus-T got really few counters literally smashed by Dugtrio. And the real problem of Tornadus-T was Regenerator and its 121 base speed, without these particular attributes it should be a Tornadus-I bulkyer and less offensive (so why Tornadus-I is still OU? His sweeping strategy + Dugtrio works exactly as Tornadus-T's). And Genesect could run Physical Moves boosted by Download in order to smash special walls (like Chansey?)
Bringin it back to the main thread:
having at least two ways (between check,counter and revengekill) to threat particular Pokèmons is not that wrong. I really want to see how your team can work if it has just one Counter/Check/Rkiller of Dragons as example. You can't stand all the pressure given also by a single pokèmon, especially with EH support. But that's not a reason to sayin "broken", right?
And all Pokèmon mentioned to threat Keldeo got also more functions and can be useful to entire team, in an offensive or defensive way. What's wrong?
Bringin it back to the main thread:
having at least two ways (between check,counter and revengekill) to threat particular Pokèmons is not that wrong. I really want to see how your team can work if it has just one Counter/Check/Rkiller of Dragons as example. You can't stand all the pressure given also by a single pokèmon, especially with EH support. But that's not a reason to sayin "broken", right?
And all Pokèmon mentioned to threat Keldeo got also more functions and can be useful to entire team, in an offensive or defensive way. What's wrong?
I don't think so. I ran a Toxicroak on a weatherless team and it did just fine. Toxicroak is a just all around a great anti-rain pokemon and a viable sweeper outside of rain. Additionally I don't like the argument going from "keldeo has tyranitar" to "keldeo has a team". What is this? Also the 100% pro ban side is so confused on what sets really are broken that it is just frustrated. First it was the specs set... Then it was the ebelt set and then if it is a jellicent then it is a calm mind set. You can only have 1 keldeo per team. Once you figure out what set it has then with good team building skills and top level playing you should be able to beat it really easily. The power drop off is also very noticeable. Between scarf/specs/ebelt/CM/LO the power difference is extremely noticeable and each set has its own obvious problems. This is the exact argument that I hated for the deoxys-d ban. You guys made him have every possible move possible depending on the situation that was brought forth. Keldeo is broken in rain because guess what? Every water type is broken in rain. Keldeo just happens to be the best right now.
Prague Kick Mamoswine alone defeats every single dragon with just hazard support if thats what youre looking for, but anyway the point is youre forced to run several checks exclusively for keldeo, regardless of whether theyre useful or not this restricts teambuilding. If keldeo had a vast amount of checks and counters that could consistently handle it this suspect wouldnt happening, but this is not the case. Very few pokemon can claim to repeteadly switch into keldeo which is why you can easily customize keldeo moveset and dedicate one or two team slots to destroy them without any negative repercussions for your team.
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MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
If you run offensive toxicroak outside of rain
You are getting 2hkod by secret sword...
It seems that way at first:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 147-174 (46.96 - 55.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
However, because of Drain Punch, Keldeo can't 2HKO Toxicroak with Specs Secret Sword while Toxicroak 2HKOes post SR
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 165-196 (51.08 - 60.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Toxicroak can come in on Keldeo, force it out, set up to +2 with SD and sweep any teams unprepared.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I would assume that keldeo is not coming in on toxicroak. Toxicroak has the burden of switching in on keldeo (unless it comes in after a kill... which is self explanatory)
Toxicroak can still check scarf/e-belt variants, prevent specs ones from spamming Hydro Pump and set up on them, if they decide to do so. That and the ability to take on pretty much all Ttar sets, which would destroy most of Keldeos other checks/counters, are the main reasons to use it besides the fact that it's a pain in the ass for a lot of rain teams.
Nobody is going to stay in after seeing the damage from specs sword anyway.
Nobody is going to stay in after seeing the damage from specs sword anyway.
Okay, I got reqs on OU Current, so I'll share my experiences facing Keldeo.
Well, unfortunately, I didn't actually see a lot of it. I played roughly 60 battles, and saw it in about 10 of them though. I'll admit, Keldeo is a monster. It can be difficult to stop, and was the cause of a couple of my losses. Despite this, I don't think it's broken. I was able to combat it and defeat it in most cases through smart switching and preserving my (admittedly flimsy -- I ran HO) checks. It wasn't getting around these checks with such ease that I am convinced it is broken. I had a Starmie, which is OHKOed by Specs Hydro Pump and a Dragonite, which also is OHKOed by Specs Hydro Pump (after Stealth Rock damage). Specs was however the easiest to play around -- its Speed was middling enough for me to revenge it with either my Scarfer or Starmie. Scarf ended some games against me, and was difficult to beat -- I consider it the most suspect-worthy set. Expert Belt was really manageable, being weaker than Specs, which makes it much easier to handle. Scarf is fast and an adept revenge killer and cleaner. It still could be checked, but against my team, it was by far the most threatening of the Keldeo sets.
My conclusion is that it's not broken from the metagame with it. I ran a fairly Keldeo weak team and still managed to beat it in most cases. It might just be the ladder quality -- I don't really know. In my experience, Keldeo was not an overwhelmingly powerful threat that could smash apart everything and was impossible to play against. I'll see what I think of the metagame without it.
This is just my opinion based on what I saw, and could very well be flawed in the grand scheme of things. I really don't provide an argument for Keldeo not being broken other than how I handled it on the ladder, my battles on which are of course different than those of everyone else and thus have little value in an argument. I'm not interested in one.
Well, unfortunately, I didn't actually see a lot of it. I played roughly 60 battles, and saw it in about 10 of them though. I'll admit, Keldeo is a monster. It can be difficult to stop, and was the cause of a couple of my losses. Despite this, I don't think it's broken. I was able to combat it and defeat it in most cases through smart switching and preserving my (admittedly flimsy -- I ran HO) checks. It wasn't getting around these checks with such ease that I am convinced it is broken. I had a Starmie, which is OHKOed by Specs Hydro Pump and a Dragonite, which also is OHKOed by Specs Hydro Pump (after Stealth Rock damage). Specs was however the easiest to play around -- its Speed was middling enough for me to revenge it with either my Scarfer or Starmie. Scarf ended some games against me, and was difficult to beat -- I consider it the most suspect-worthy set. Expert Belt was really manageable, being weaker than Specs, which makes it much easier to handle. Scarf is fast and an adept revenge killer and cleaner. It still could be checked, but against my team, it was by far the most threatening of the Keldeo sets.
My conclusion is that it's not broken from the metagame with it. I ran a fairly Keldeo weak team and still managed to beat it in most cases. It might just be the ladder quality -- I don't really know. In my experience, Keldeo was not an overwhelmingly powerful threat that could smash apart everything and was impossible to play against. I'll see what I think of the metagame without it.
This is just my opinion based on what I saw, and could very well be flawed in the grand scheme of things. I really don't provide an argument for Keldeo not being broken other than how I handled it on the ladder, my battles on which are of course different than those of everyone else and thus have little value in an argument. I'm not interested in one.
I have seen Bulk Up Protect Toxicroak to counter Keldeo 100% which isnt bad idea at all thanks to Dry Skin + Leftovers.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 154-182 (39.18 - 46.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Here probably the most hard counter of Keldeo, has Psyshock for CM variants. A less bulkier Slowking like OTR with Leftovers is a good check to Keldeo in offensive teams and honestly we are just speaking about all the right conditions for Keldeo: Rain up, Stealth Rock up, Choice Specs, right move in this case..
I just found that isnt hard to fit checks / counters to Keldeo on every team / playstyle (unlike Landorus-i).
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 154-182 (39.18 - 46.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Here probably the most hard counter of Keldeo, has Psyshock for CM variants. A less bulkier Slowking like OTR with Leftovers is a good check to Keldeo in offensive teams and honestly we are just speaking about all the right conditions for Keldeo: Rain up, Stealth Rock up, Choice Specs, right move in this case..
I just found that isnt hard to fit checks / counters to Keldeo on every team / playstyle (unlike Landorus-i).
A lotta people are saying that it's easy to counter Keldeo by baiting out its set. The problem with that is that offense teams often have to sack a poke, or a stall team poke has to take a lot of damage if you're not able to predict amongst the different Keldeo sets. While each set can be countered, (outspeed Specs and E-Belt, Scarf doesn't have that much power, etc, etc.) I really don't want to hafta take damage to counter that pony, and it can just switch out again, come in on a Keldeo weak poke, spam Hydro Pump, switch out again, rinse and repeat.
MoosyDoosy, the problem with that logic is that you are letting the opponent dictate the match. While Keldeo is switching about, what are you doing that whole time? I'm not looking for specific examples or taking sides on the keldeo argument. I'm just saying that the logic of an opponent outplaying you, whether they have a keldeo or not, is reason for the opponent to win. The same argument could be made for something simple like life orb 4 attacks terrakion, under these circumstances.
The suspect ladder is proving quite the pain. I had like 2600 Glicko2, 173 dev at 8-1...in my experience dev is usually quite a bit lower by that point, and when I won a battle, my dev did not go down a point. I am very confused, lol. It's also literally impossible not to get over 2000 -- At 1-1 my Glicko2 shot up high above 2000 within 3 matches. Something is off...idk
You posted that replay in the replay thread, got called out for it but promoted you heavily anyway. Your "awesome replay" is you sweeping a rain team with Kingdra, after the guy had let all of his resists die / get crippled. This has no relevence to how "good" or "bad" Keldeo is vs offense.
Worth noting I could post a replay for a frontier match when the brain brought an offensive team, and was ripped apart by Scarf Keldeo at the very end. Id rather not post it in case the Brain / challenger wants to keep the team secret or something, but the examples are there of Keldeo smashing through offensive teams, even at higher levels.
Because the simple fact was if you used more offensive sets to beat Tyranitar, then Keldeo would blow past you since you lacked defensive bulk. LO HP fucking Fighting Latias doesn't work when your taking 16% per turn against a sand team, which basically puts you into KO range ov an Icy Wind + HP Bug. Even Scarf Keldeo enjoys LO Latias because its killing itself with LO Recoil thus allowing a Keldeo to pull off a late game clean just spamming Surf. Celebi obviously still loses to HP Bug, plus again, Rain Boosted surfs would plough into it.
That would be me xD
edit: sorry, accidently hit reply, before the post was made
I've think I've actually seen the game that ginga is talking about(I'm not sure, I think scarf keldeo cleaning has happened several times), and there was literally no way that the brain could have won the game. I
Outside of rain, I find keldeo quite managable and not much harder to deal with than, say, latios. It is hardly overwhelming, and even with pursuit support, the main switch ins can stay alive. Celebi can bp out before tyranitar can do anything and jellicent can simply add extra speed EVs so it outspeeds and hits ttar with a WoW before the crunch. Ttar don't want to give up bulk for speed if it wants to switch into dracos. Keldeo is fast and strong, but so are many things these days.
In rain however, it is a different story. A specs hydro will dent pretty much anything, and while you ARE giving away a lot of momentum by locking yourself into moves with common resists, water moves are so spammable so you risk very little anyways.
As for the scarf set, it can clean up incredibly well late game when the opponent's big water resist(s) is gone.
I am still a bit torn on this, and IMO a pokemon should not be banned unless it is obvious that it needs to be. I will try to keep on laddering and see.
BTW, on the ladders, you get ALOT of glicko/acre very quickly (sitting on 2700ish acre myself). Is this intended? I've seen poeple with 3500+. It just seems weird because the req seems pretty low.
In rain however, it is a different story. A specs hydro will dent pretty much anything, and while you ARE giving away a lot of momentum by locking yourself into moves with common resists, water moves are so spammable so you risk very little anyways.
As for the scarf set, it can clean up incredibly well late game when the opponent's big water resist(s) is gone.
I am still a bit torn on this, and IMO a pokemon should not be banned unless it is obvious that it needs to be. I will try to keep on laddering and see.
BTW, on the ladders, you get ALOT of glicko/acre very quickly (sitting on 2700ish acre myself). Is this intended? I've seen poeple with 3500+. It just seems weird because the req seems pretty low.
lol
Did you ignore the entire reply? Keldeo does amazing against offense, the only reason you won was because your opponent played badly enough he let all of his Kingdra checks die. Your replay is literally worthless, don't bring it into this thread. Keldeo does great against offense, and I have already given my arguments. You really can't use "offensive pressure" as an excuse for everything. Even IF one style completely destroyed a Pokemon, that wouldn't mean that Pokemon isn't broken.
Did you ignore the entire reply? Keldeo does amazing against offense, the only reason you won was because your opponent played badly enough he let all of his Kingdra checks die. Your replay is literally worthless, don't bring it into this thread. Keldeo does great against offense, and I have already given my arguments. You really can't use "offensive pressure" as an excuse for everything. Even IF one style completely destroyed a Pokemon, that wouldn't mean that Pokemon isn't broken.
How did I ignore your entire post. I just replied to the part that Ginga quoted, which was blatantly wrong. Offense doesn't do great against Keldeo, i'm not sure where you're going with this at all. You can barely "offensively pressure" Keldeo as it is. You can say it is simple and easy all you want, but Keldeo can really just beat down offensive teams very quickly. I have beaten Keldeo with offensive pressure, sure. But for the most part the only players I have actually ever faced were complete scrubs. Keldeo does great against offense, you really can't argue that. Keldeo doesn't really need that much support. You get up Rocks and basically go to town.
Every time we bring up a suspect you literally go on about how "HO is the best style" and how "Kyurem-B gets beaten by HO, it must not be broken!" I can put words into your mouth all I want, considering you said them in the first place.
Every time we bring up a suspect you literally go on about how "HO is the best style" and how "Kyurem-B gets beaten by HO, it must not be broken!" I can put words into your mouth all I want, considering you said them in the first place.
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