Resource Don't Use That; Use This (ORAS Version)

[Sheers Man]

It's hard for me to believe this crap is STILL used quite a bit and what makes it worse is that in the January 1825 OU usage stats for Charizard:

Air Slash 5.171%
Dragon Pulse 4.789%

The 1695 and 1500 stats only get worse and it's cringe worthy looking at them.

So in other words -
Don't use this:

Charizard@Charizardite Y
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest nature
-Fire Blast
-Solar Beam
-Focus Blast
-Air Slash

Air Slash has literally zero use on Char-Y. Fire Blast nukes everything in sun and Solar Beam is a very obvious move on it for waters and whatnot while Focus Blast nails Tyranitar and Heatran. Air Slash is so weak compared to these moves what on EARTH would you ever need it for? Your last move typically won't be used QUITE as much as these first three anyway so instead of Air Slash:

Try using this:

Charizard@Charizardite Y
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest nature
-Fire Blast
-Solar Beam
-Focus Blast
-Dragon Pulse/Roost/Will-O-Wisp/SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE SOME USE

As mentioned, you likely won't use this last move too often, but since you have it, why not make it at least SOMEWHAT useful? Dragon Pulse gives you an option for hitting Latias/Latios who resist all of your other moves. Roost is recovery, enough said. It hardly matters what it even is, just think about it and you'll find something with more use than Air Slash. Even something like Earthquake could be used for reliably hitting Heatran. I took a quick look through the Viability list and there is NOTHING that is hit harder by Air Slash than a sun-boosted Fire Blast, Solar Beam or Focus Blast. Do yourself a favor and give your last moveslot some purpose.

 

[Der Twist]

I've seen this around more than I'd ever have liked and it makes me die a bit on the inside when I do.

Don't Use This:

Ambipom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Low Kick
- Knock Off

Why It's Shit:
The arguments I've heard for using this fucking thing are as follows: It's powerful, it's a good anti-lead, it's fast, it's unusual to see in OU so no one knows how to deal with it. Son, everyone knows how to deal with it, it's pretty limited in what it does and it's not a hard thing to get around, we know what Ambipom does. The power is greatly debatable, I'm assuming people say this because of Technician Fake Out and Return, but ultimately when you break it down it's not much; it's a base 100 attack on a mon whose STAB hits literally nothing for super effective damage, not even Technician can save you from hitting like a wet towel in OU if that's what you're working with, it's a far cry from the potential of Breloom and Scizor who are actually good Technician abusers. What leads are you really successfully dealing with here? Fake Out + Low Kick handles Terrakion and T-Tar and Azelf is handled by Knock Off if you win the speed tie, but what else? Please tell me how you can handle Ferro, Mega Sableye, Garchomp, Mega Diancie, Landorus and such? Not much of an anti-lead. I'll give it that that it's fast and speedy Knock Off or U-Turn spam is quite nice, it's one of the cool things about Scarfed Lando who can actually hit harder and forces switches allowing it to function as a good pivot, what the Hell kind of switches are you forcing with an Ambipom? But I digress, its speed is good, but nothing overly spectacular, and running into a priority infested meta when with an unspectacular mon boasting as much bulk as wet toilet paper is a ballsy thing to pull to put it nicely, Ambi can die pretty easily without Sash, but with Sash he's not going to be doing much besides tickling opponents to death; you either die to a sneeze or hit like one. As far as anti-leads go you're spoiled for much better choice.

Use This:

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch

Why It's Better:
Remarkable speed tier, dual unresisted STAB, great offensive capability, versatility with sets (the above set is just standard example), base 136 Atk. Need I say more? She's Ambipom but not shit. Yes, Lop has Normal STAB, but is also Fighting which is one of the best offensive typings around and a great counterpart to Normal because it can hit things super effectively and the Normal typing hits neutrally whatever resists Fighting so it's not just a dead-weight type. As such, HJK hits insanely hard and Scrappy makes sure it hits everything insanely hard, so that Sableye lead is not going to appreciate the hit, even Mega Diancie has a very high chance to die to Fake Out + HJK. It can essentially handle every mon listed above barring Lando after the Intimidate drop and can still be used effectively throughout the match thanks to her speed and offensive typing. Multiple sets for multiple things, there's all-out attacker Bunny above, there's stallbreaker Bunny, Sub PuP Bunny, not that she's the hardest thing to predict but not a one-trick pony and can be the bane of multiple playstyles, she's not just that annoying twit to switch in to spam Fake Out until a priority hit, Scarfer, or something generally speedier farts in its direction. It's essentially everything that monkey ever hoped to be, there is no good reason to use it over this, and no good reason to use it at all tbh.

Stop justifying Ambipom in OU!

 

[Kurona]

I've seen this around more than I'd ever have liked and it make me die a bit on the inside when I do.

Don't Use This:

Ambipom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Low Kick
- Knock Off

Why It's Shit:
The arguments I've heard for using this fucking thing are as follows: It's powerful, it's a good anti-lead, it's fast, it's unusual to see in OU so no one knows how to deal with it. Son, everyone knows how to deal with it, it's pretty limited in what it does and it's not a hard thing to get around, we know what Ambipom does. The power is greatly debatable, I'm assuming people say this because of Technician Fake Out and Return, but ultimately when you break it down it's not much; it's a base 100 attack on a mon whose STAB hits literally nothing for super effective damage, not even Technician can save you from hitting like a wet towel in OU if that's what you're working with, it's a far cry from the potential of Breloom and Scizor who are actually good Technician abusers. What leads are you really successfully dealing with here? Fake Out + Low Kick handles Terrakion and T-Tar and Azelf is handled by Knock Off if you win the speed tie, but what else? Please tell me how you can handle Ferro, Mega Sableye, Garchomp, Mega Diancie, Landorus and such? Not much of an anti-lead. I'll give it that that it's fast and speedy Knock Off or U-Turn spam is quite nice, it's one of the cool things about Scarfed Lando who can actually hit harder and forces switches allowing it to function as a good pivot, what the Hell kind of switches are you forcing with an Ambipom? But I digress, its speed is good, but nothing overly spectacular, and running into a priority infested meta when with an unspectacular mon boasting as much bulk as wet toilet paper is a ballsy thing to pull to put it nicely, Ambi can die pretty easily without Sash, but with Sash he's not going to be doing much besides tickling opponents to death; you either die to a sneeze or hit like one. As far as anti-leads go, Breloom, Lum Chomp, and the upcoming Mega Lop, you're spoiled for much better choice.

Use This:

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch

Why It's Better:
Remarkable speed tier, dual unresisted STAB, great offensive capability, versatility with sets (the above set is just standard example), base 136 Atk. Need I say more? She's Ambipom but not shit. Yes, Lop has Normal STAB, but is also Fighting which is one of the best offensive typings around and a great counterpart to Normal because it can hit things super effectively and the Normal typing hits neutrally whatever resists Fighting so it's not just a dead-weight type. As such, HJK hits insanely hard and Scrappy makes sure it hits everything insanely hard, so that Sableye lead is not going to appreciate the hit, even Mega Diancie has a very high chance to die to Fake Out + HJK. It can essentially handle every mon listed above barring Lando after the Intimidate drop and can still be used effectively throughout the match thanks to her speed and offensive typing. Multiple sets for multiple things, there's all-out attacker Bunny above, there's stallbreaker Bunny, Sub PuP Bunny, not that she's the hardest thing to predict but not a one-trick pony and can be the bane of multiple playstyles, she's not just that annoying twit to switch in to spam Fake Out until a priority hit, Scarfer, or something generally speedier farts in its direction. It's essentially everything that monkey ever hoped to be, there is no good reason to use it over this, and no good reason to use it at all tbh.

Stop justifying Ambipom in OU!

... this... this is a thing?
I mean I know it's a problem in RU, but...
| 166 | Ambipom | 0.16153%
| 169 | Exploud | 0.15505%

... damn.

Anyways.

Time to conclude this... what is this, the seventh Pokémon I've covered that's only viable with it's mega stone but has significant usage without it's mega stone? And I'll have to do one for Venusaur too...

Don't use this:

Why it's bad:
Sharpedo has next to no use in OU this gen. While admittedly very appealing with Speed Boost, a nice attack stat of 120 and a dual STAB that has proven it's worth before in the form of Mega Gyarados, in practise base Sharpedo really doesn't work out. It's extremely frail and susceptible to priority which OU is infested with, it struggles to get around a lot of physically defensive threats due to not being able to boost it's attack, it's worn down very easily and there's not much if anything you can do with it that isn't accomplished by other speed boosters such as Scolipede or Pokémon that can boost their speed in general such as Charizard and Gyarados. The base form on it's own simply finds itself too weak and too outclassed to be competent in OU without extremely significant support, and at that point you might as well be using something else. However, that said, if there's one thing Sharpedo's base form is good for this gen...

Use this instead:

Why it's better:
... it's this. Look at this fucking beast; he's just raring to tear shit up. This is what Sharpedo is good for, ladies and gentleman - supporting it's Mega. Get up a Protect for Speed Boost then Mega Evolve the next turn. The very significant change here, unfocused as Mega Sharpedo's stat distribution may be, is that it becomes an extremely effective late-game cleaner with Strong Jaw Crunch and a Speed Boost. Crunch backed up by STAB, Strong Jaw and 140 Base Attack is almost stupidly powerful, and it even gains enough Special Attack to get past physical walls like Skarmory with Hydro Pump. This also finally gives it reason to be used over Mega Gyarados; with a speed boost under it's belt, a powerful enough Hydro Pump and a Crunch that gives even the sturdiest of Mega Slowbro nightmares - seriously look at this
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Jesus christ
- means Sharpedonite is what finally gives Sharpedo use in OU. Just make sure you use it to late-game clean rather than attempt a sweep.

 

[firehusky]

I take responsibility for the ambipom usage, I accidentally started 3 battles with my RU team in OU.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I take responsibility for the ambipom usage, I accidentally started 3 battles with my RU team in OU.

Why did you have Ambipom on a RU team in the first place ?_?

 

[firehusky]

Why did you have Ambipom on a RU team in the first place ?_?

I suck at teambuilding xD
I used ambipom in UU once and I actually did pretty well, so I thought it would be nice in RU. Evidently, I was wrong.

 

[Toljik]

I know that statistically, this particular set is only on 0.5% of teams, but I also know that ELO 1000 loves their Eeveelutions.

Don't Use This:

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Payback
- Moonlight/Wish
- Heal Bell

Umbreon's base 65 Attack means that it is going to take a long time to sweep. Mega Altaria can boost once with Dragon Dance, and it'll be doing more damage than Umbreon will in three turns, given the same EV spread. Payback has no secondary effects, so it can't threaten the opponents before boosting. And it'll be selfishly hogging Wish for itself rather than passing Wishes to a teammate. As a win condition, it is outclassed by a different Pokemon, namely

Use These:

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind

Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Foul Play
- Defog
- Taunt


Suicune has two important things going for it over Umbreon: Higher Special Attack, and Scald. Scald is a threatening move even before Suicune boosts, weakening opponents on their physical side and doing chip damage. That 30% chance of a burn means that Suicune is a lot more successful at its job than Umbreon, and like Dark, nothing (relevant) in OU is immune to Water.

Mandibuzz, for its part, can do great damage immediately off the bat with Foul Play while supporting the team with its arsenal of great utility moves. OU is full of powerful physical attackers, and Mandibuzz has the moves and stats to turn that against them.

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 202-238 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Umbreon Payback (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Foul Play Umbreon has its own DUTUT in the archive. But between the two, Foul Play cleric Umbreon > Curse "sweeper" Umbreon.

 

[InvisibleWater]

Is Trevenant worth mentioning?

 

[Kurona]

Is Trevenant worth mentioning?

Most certainly. Most everything not on the viability thread that has decent usage is worth making an analysis about imo. I was actually going to do it myself but wasn't quite sure what outclassed it lol.

 

[Karxrida]

Most certainly. Most everything not on the viability thread that has decent usage is worth making an analysis about imo. I was actually going to do it myself but wasn't quite sure what outclassed it lol.

Gourgeist XL, Chesnaught, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Celebi for bulky Grass-types that can check Keldeo.

 

[AD impish john]

Hi everyone I had to say this since no one has said it.

Don't Use This

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch

Why Its Bad

Magnezone is not a bad pokemon its just that its just slow. Magnezone has a base speed of 60 which is slow but has a base special attack of 130 which is really good. I don't know why it is used as a scarf tho? I understand specs but scarf zone is just bad. This is the average set people use so you know what I mean and is used to out speed scizor but lacks the power to kill. Its better to just use specs zone instead.

Use This

Magneton @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch

Why Its Good

Scarf Magneton is much better it in speed by 10 more base stat speed lose special attack by 10, not much of difference. Scarf ton is used to out speed talonflame to hit it with a electric type move. It still has magnet pull so it is as good as magnezone it does hit as hard and it does the samething. You probably won't use this often but I had to say to those who use scarf ton.

Bye-Bye

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Hi everyone I had to say this since no one has said it.

Don't Use This

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
Why Its Bad

Magnezone is not a bad pokemon its just that its just slow. Magnezone has a base speed of 60 which is slow but has a base special attack of 130 which is really good. I don't know why it is used as a scarf tho? I understand specs but scarf zone is just bad. This is the average set people use so you know what I mean and is used to out speed scizor but lacks the power to kill. Its better to just use specs zone instead.
Use This

Magneton @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch

Why Its Good

Scarf Magneton is much better it in speed by 10 more base stat speed lose special attack by 10, not much of difference. Scarf ton is used to out speed talonflame to hit it with a electric type move. It still has magnet pull so it is as good as magnezone it does hit as hard and it does the samething. You probably won't use this often but I had to say to those who use scarf ton.

Bye-Bye

No one has said it because there's nothing wrong with Scarf Magnezone. It has an OU analysis and is in the Smogon Dex

 

[firehusky]

Not really, magneton does not necessarily outclass magnezone. Yeah, sure, it does check talonflame and other flying types a bit better, but it's actually a lot weaker in terms of damage. Scarfton was more relevant when greninja was still in the tier, but now that greninja has left us (yay), magneton is tbh, kind of sucky. Magnezone is bulkier and stronger. You also shouldn't be using magneton as your talonflame check anyways. Magnezone's job is to get rid of steels, and gain momentum with volt switch. It can do that perfectly fine, and isn't outclassed by magneton in any way, shape or form. Magneton is faster, but magnezone is more powerful and bulkier, making up for the lost speed.

Also, no one has said it, because there is a reason that magnezone is OU, and magneton is RU. A general rule of thumb is that pokemon in RU do not outclass OU. A rarely used pokemon almost never outclasses an overused pokemon.

 

[Thunderorange]

You know I just realized how confusing the title of this thread is when considering the responses.
It's titled "don't use that use this", yet the write-ups are "don't use this use that", even the example on the OP being listed as such.
hhhhhhhhhhhhuh.

ANYWAYS, new usage stats came out Monday so hoo boy have we got a few new targets of Snorlax, Venusaur and Machamp to go through. But I'll be nise and steal the unviable Pokémon with the most usage not already covered.

Don't use this:

Why it's bad:
Roserade simply finds itself in the annoying little world of not necessarily being a bad Pokémon on it's own merit, but unfortunately falling just short of being good in OU simply for being outclassed at everything it tries to do. However, from what I can see in the usage stats - that list it as 123 in usage - it's most used moves and EV/Nature spreads classify it as being used either as an all-out attacker or as an offensive support with spikes. While I will get to why those are outclassed in a moment, I must clarify why using them on Roserade would not be a good idea either -- for the all-out attacking set, I'm afraid this is just plain bad. I can see why it might be considered because it's the only Pokémon in the game with technician and a good special attack stat; hence you turn HP Fire into essentially Flamethrower, HP Ice into what is essentially Ice Beam, etc. That's nice but it's where the pros for all-out attacking end; as it does not have the characteristics to support this. It's STAB is downright awful outside of punishing fairies, and while 125 special attack is very nice, 90 speed with no priority is certainly not. As for a defensive support... Grass/Poison has been shown to be a nice defensive typing by Venusaur and Amoongus, but it's not being held up well by Roserade's very frail 60/65/105 defences. This is downright laughable for an OU 'mon and the only reason you'd use it over another defensive spiker is the speed; but 90 speed is rather slow in OU where 110 has become the new standard to meet and 115 is starting to become rather common as well.

Use these instead:

Why they're better:
First off, allow me to address the all-out attacking sets. If you want an all-out grass-type attacker, Serperior and Mega Sceptile are your best bets. Both carry amazing speed that allow them to compete in this metagame, with great power coming either through direct stats (Mega Sceptile's 145 SpA), or the very unique unconventional method of boosting in Serperior's Leaf Storm. They also have better coverage than Roserade - never thought I'd say that about Serperior of all things - as they both carry what matters from Roserade in powerful grass STAB, Giga Drain for longevity and a Hidden Power for coverage while boasting Dragon Pulse which is even STAB on Sceptile. Talking of Sceptile, it also has access to Focus Blast or EQ on mixed sets which rounds out it's coverage nicely. This leaves Roserade's only real niche over them a STAB Sludge Bomb, but this being your only Fairy answer is a very bad idea and the cons far outweigh the pros.
If you want a defensive grass/poison type, well, here you go. Mega Venusaur and Amoongus. Mega Venusaur boasts far, FAR better defences of 80/123/120, while Amoongus has 114/70/80. This already makes the two far better choices for a defensive Grass-type but it doesn't stop there. They also boast incredible abilities in Thick Fat and Regenerator, respectively, which increases Venusaur's resistances and allows Amoongus to keep very health throughout the entire match. In regards to movepool, they do have the staple Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb, but Venusaur also gets the very nice Synthesis and Knock Off and even Swords Dance sets are starting to become viable. Amoonguss, meanwhile, gets the coveted Spore for crippling an opponent. Which brings me to the point that you may be so inclined to use Roserade for some form of offensive presence; but Venusaur has that covered pretty decently in Base 122.
Finally, the one other thing I saw was that people wanted to use Roserade as a spiker. Here we go. Forretress is a better grass-type to set these up in every sense of the word, with far better defences, typing, an ability which complements spikes' use of wittling opponents down, and a myriad other crippling support options in Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Leech Seed and Knock Off. It also has decent offensive presence with Gyro Ball and Power Whip. But if a fast spiker is what you want, allow me to introduce you to skillkeys Klefki. Prankster lets it set up spikes before anything else and even get rid of one of it's only weaknesses through Magnet Rise if you're so inclined. It also has better support options such as dual screens and thunder wave, not to mention an all-around better defensive typing and stats.

Agree with your post but you might want to fix bolded bit.

 

[Subzero008]

snip

Roserade has 2.5 advantages over the others: Sleep Powder, Coverage, and Speed. It's uses also vary quite a bit depending on what build you have and item and such. I'd say the two viable sets are Choice Scarf and Specially Defensive - neither of which have Spikes or Toxic Spikes. There are better entry hazarders out there. That's not its point.

Sure, it's speed isn't great, but it's certainly useful enough. This lets it uniquely deal with quite a few common OU mons, such as:

Scizor and Mega Scizor (with HP Fire/SP)
Non-Scarf Rotom Wash
Breloom
Sylveon
Skarmory
Magnezone
Azumarill
Ferrothorn
Bisharp? (Again, HP Fire/SP)
Non-Scarf Mamoswine (SP or Grass Moves)

It's typing and special defenses, if invested, also helps it get around a few other mons and then kill them because mons like Amoonguss have weak offensive potential or stuff like Mega Venu take up a mega slot.

Keldeo
Mega Manectric
Thunderus
Mega Venu
Special Mega Altaria

Blah blah im hungry, other mons can be dealt with with the right HP, which also gives it a shit ton of flexibility.

tl;dr: Roserade has Amoonguss' typing, decent special bulk, and access to a unique speed tier, coverage, and sleep powder let it do things that its competitors cannot. It doesn't have Serperior's raw power and speed, but better coverage. It doesn't have Mega Venu's ability or bulk, but doesn't use a mega slot (and I'm fairly certain that Roserade can outduel it). It's also faster and stronger than Amoonguss at the expense of the bulk.

 

[Kurona]

Roserade has 2.5 advantages over the others: Sleep Powder, Coverage, and Speed. It's uses also vary quite a bit depending on what build you have and item and such. I'd say the two viable sets are Choice Scarf and Specially Defensive - neither of which have Spikes or Toxic Spikes. There are better entry hazarders out there. That's not its point.

Sure, it's speed isn't great, but it's certainly useful enough. This lets it uniquely deal with quite a few common OU mons, such as:

Scizor and Mega Scizor (with HP Fire/SP)
Non-Scarf Rotom Wash
Breloom
Sylveon
Skarmory
Magnezone
Azumarill
Ferrothorn
Bisharp? (Again, HP Fire/SP)
Non-Scarf Mamoswine (SP or Grass Moves)

It's typing and special defenses, if invested, also helps it get around a few other mons and then kill them because mons like Amoonguss have weak offensive potential or stuff like Mega Venu take up a mega slot.

Keldeo
Mega Manectric
Thunderus
Mega Venu
Special Mega Altaria

Blah blah im hungry, other mons can be dealt with with the right HP, which also gives it a shit ton of flexibility.

tl;dr: Roserade has Amoonguss' typing, decent special bulk, and access to a unique speed tier, coverage, and sleep powder let it do things that its competitors cannot. It doesn't have Serperior's raw power and speed, but better coverage. It doesn't have Mega Venu's ability or bulk, but doesn't use a mega slot (and I'm fairly certain that Roserade can outduel it). It's also faster and stronger than Amoonguss at the expense of the bulk.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here and a lot of your information is just... wrong.
AM at least brought up the point that it can abuse Natural Cure and Toxic Spikes but even then he admitted it wasn't that viable and very team-specific. The three advantages you listed aren't even advantages. Venusaur has Sleep Powder and Amoonguss has Spore. Roserade does not have the advantage of coverage over Serperior or Sceptile because realistically, all it really has is Giga Drain, a boosted Hidden Power - which you're overselling way too much btw - and Sludge Bomb for fairies. Hell I pretty much already covered all of this already but I'll just go over it anyway. Sceptile gets Giga Drain/Leaf Storm, STAB Dragon Pulse, HP Fire, Focus Blast and Earthquake. Serperior has the lesser end of the deal with only Leaf Storm, HP Fire/Ground and Dragon Pulse but even that's better then Roserade; at least having the power from +2/+4/+6 to back it up. Speed... you're kidding me, right? 90 Speed for an offensive Pokémon with no boost is absolutely horrendous in this meta, especially considering Roserade's bulk which you're also overselling a lot, but I'll get to that later. The new standard is 110 and even base 100 is struggling a little. If Roserade had the offences to be a wallbreaker or the defences to be a wall 90 speed would be fine but this is very clearly not the case. In conclusion, Sleep Powder is not something held only by it, it's coverage is not good, and it's speed is completely irrelevant.
Now to the point of the sets you recommended. Now this is absolutely stunning. You start off by saying that it shouldn't lay hazards which is literally one of the few unique things it can do, and then go on to recommend a scarf set. Choice Scarf. On a Pokémon outrun by a ton of scarfers and boosters, beaten by most priority in the game incredibly easily and with a horrible offensive typing. Let me give you a few examples of Choice Scarf Pokémon that works but I honestly had no idea I'd have to go into detail about why Scarf Roserade doesn't work.
Garchomp. Landorus-T. Terrakion. Kyurem-B. Victini. Heatran. Diggersby. Tyranitar. Magnezone.
There's a good chunk of viable scarf Pokémon. Hopefully you should notice a pattern; all of them - aside from Heatran who uses it's defences and fire moves to fuck over a ton of mons and Magnezone who traps steels usually faster than it - pack incredible STAB in addition to fantastic offensive stats (or in Diggersby's case huge power, or Victini's case just smashing everything with V-create) and a decent enough speed tier. They also all have something unique to their name. Garchomp and Kyurem-B can wreck through teams late-game with Outrage. Tyranitar can Pursuit trap. Landorus-T... jesus christ Landorus-T; it does everything. Pivots out with U-turn, Knocks Off items, cripples physical attackers... it's pretty incredible. In comparison, Roserade is stuck with absolutely nothing it can do. It has Leaf Storm, I guess? The big problem here is that aside from Leaf Storm it doesn't have any high BP moves, nor does it have high offensive stats to make up for that fact. I have absolutely no reason to use Scarf Roserade over any other Scarfer because despite it's different coverage, that just isn't powerful enough without a boost.
Specially Defensive you provide absolutely no claims as to why it's better over Venu, Amoongus or Ferro. Wait, it has toxic spikes -- but then you said that it shouldn't be laying hazards. ... so what does this do? Sleep Powders stuff and hope to wittle down with Giga Drain? I'm honestly scratching my head here to work out just what on earth it'd do. Amoongus can spore, foul play, stall out 'mon with synthesis... and all with much better bulk. Mega Venusaur can sleep powder, far better offensive presence with which to use Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/Hidden Power and the ability to stall out 'mon with synthesis... again, all with much better bulk. If you're not going to provide an argument for how specially defensive works then I have no idea what you're on about.
You totally lost me at the point you stated it beats Thundurus and Mega Manectric. I'm not sure how exactly to respond to that.

tl;dr - Roserade does have certain niches as shown by AM but not enough to make it really viable. As an offensive 'mon there is still no reason I would want to use this over Serperior or Mega Sceptile, as a defensive grass-type there is still no reason I would want to use this over Amoonguss or Mega Venusaur, and your logic astouds me with no real empirical evidence to back it up. If you want to argue this further, go to the viability thread and nom Roserade for D or something, but I must warn you standards are starting to rise. Your arguments are flawed with no meat to them and I honestly have no clue what part of the ladder you're having success with Scarf Roserade on.

 

[jzplr]

I see this quite a lot and I'm getting tired of it. Also, keep in mind that I'm nowhere near good at arguing points, so don't expect me to answer any questions without vague, crappy dug-up answers.

Don't use this!

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch

Lucario seems like a great choice due to it's STAB combination of Fighting and Steel which hits things hard. He has Swords Dance and 80BP priority. What could go wrong with Lucario?
EVERYTHING.
Lucario definitely isn't perfect. While you might be able to snag one or two kills from that pretty powerful +2 E-Speed, Lucario just can't cut it. It's stats are very mediocre. 70/70/70 bulk isn't appealing at all, and considering Steel isn't the best offensive type, you could say that Lucario's steel typing actually hinders it by giving it glaring weaknesses such as the ever-common Ground, Fire, and Fighting types. Much like a discount Mega Charizard X, you might find yourself gracefully "tearing" through the enemy's team, and after one kill, they send out a Sash user and they ruin your day. Heck, 110/115/90 isn't good either. First off, you're using Swords Dance to boost it's less-prominent attack, and while that might not look like a big deal, let's face it. If you're using Lucario, you have to be using him as a very, very late-game cleaner. Because if you don't, you know what terrible fate comes upon your Lucario? Death. Your Lucario will get knocked out. He has so many things that can stop it. I mean, let's do a headcount. Before a Swords Dance, here are your potential threats.

Mega Altaria
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Conkeldurr
Clefable (With Fire Blast/Thrower)
Breloom
Dragonite
Garchomp
Mega Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Heatran (Even if they decide to Close Combat, lol it's priority bait to something else because it's defenses which were already weak turn into wet toilet paper)
Keldeo
Lati@-- You get the point.

And after a Swords Dance, what? You're getting walled by ghosts, Sash users, things that are bulky enough to live a +2 E-Speed (which is just about anything bulkier than Mega Altaria) BREATHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... you know what? I think I've gone on enough about Lucario. He's awful. Don't use him!

Instead, use this!

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost

It might seem odd. Lucario is a Fighting/Steel type who you already bashed for being frail and having bad attack! Why are you giving us a Fire/Flying type that's even more frail (typing-wise... debatable.) and is quad-weak to Sneaky Pebbles? Well, that is true! But fear not! Because the Talonflame-is-really-good-at-life train is here! Okay, so first off, Lucario is nowhere near threatening to the titans of OU. He'll get smacked likely before he can pull off a Swords Dance. Talonflame, however... Talonflame gets around. He's the epitome of revenge killer. Move along, Ditto. He forces all of the switches. All of them. Now, I don't feel like writing whole paragraphs, so here's a bulleted list on why Talonflame is generally better.

~Flying is a far better priority typing than Normal. Also, with Talonflame receiving STAB, 120 Base Power, on top of that, priority, there's not much that likes a Brave Bird, even when unboosted.

~Fire is better coverage than Dark. It doesn't even come with the defense drop penalty! Cool!

~Talonflame has a form of reliable recovery. Not just that, but PRIORITY recovery. So, if you're feeling confident, Talonflame has TWO switch predict options. Compared to Lucario's one, which is just a "do it or you're useless" thing and not really a switch option.

I kinda ran out of bullets that couldn't go into a paragraph, but just take my word for it, Talonflame is just better. If you can get Talonflame in on something that can't counter it, he's terrifying. Once he dances, he smacks around all of the things. All of them. With Flying being un-immunity-ridden, and Fire/Flying only being taken well by Heatran, who doesn't appreciate too many Swords Dance boosted Brave Birds by the way...
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 162-192 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 162-192 (42 - 49.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also, on, top, of, thaaaaaaaaaaat, Talonflame is 2phast2kwik, so you don't have to use that atrocious base 90 speed that Lucario has with the risk of getting outsped.

It's kinda hard to explain, but Talonflame is just... he's just better than Lucario, okay?

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I see this quite a lot and I'm getting tired of it. Also, keep in mind that I'm nowhere near good at arguing points, so don't expect me to answer any questions without vague, crappy dug-up answers.

Don't use this!

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch

Lucario seems like a great choice due to it's STAB combination of Fighting and Steel which hits things hard. He has Swords Dance and 80BP priority. What could go wrong with Lucario?
EVERYTHING.
Lucario definitely isn't perfect. While you might be able to snag one or two kills from that pretty powerful +2 E-Speed, Lucario just can't cut it. It's stats are very mediocre. 70/70/70 bulk isn't appealing at all, and considering Steel isn't the best offensive type, you could say that Lucario's steel typing actually hinders it by giving it glaring weaknesses such as the ever-common Ground, Fire, and Fighting types. Much like a discount Mega Charizard X, you might find yourself gracefully "tearing" through the enemy's team, and after one kill, they send out a Sash user and they ruin your day. Heck, 110/115/90 isn't good either. First off, you're using Swords Dance to boost it's less-prominent attack, and while that might not look like a big deal, let's face it. If you're using Lucario, you have to be using him as a very, very late-game cleaner. Because if you don't, you know what terrible fate comes upon your Lucario? Death. Your Lucario will get knocked out. He has so many things that can stop it. I mean, let's do a headcount. Before a Swords Dance, here are your potential threats.

Mega Altaria
Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard Y
Conkeldurr
Clefable (With Fire Blast/Thrower)
Breloom
Dragonite
Garchomp
Mega Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Heatran (Even if they decide to Close Combat, lol it's priority bait to something else because it's defenses which were already weak turn into wet toilet paper)
Keldeo
Lati@-- You get the point.

And after a Swords Dance, what? You're getting walled by ghosts, Sash users, things that are bulky enough to live a +2 E-Speed (which is just about anything bulkier than Mega Altaria) BREATHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE... you know what? I think I've gone on enough about Lucario. He's awful. Don't use him!

Instead, use this!

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost

It might seem odd. Lucario is a Fighting/Steel type who you already bashed for being frail and having bad attack! Why are you giving us a Fire/Flying type that's even more frail (typing-wise... debatable.) and is quad-weak to Sneaky Pebbles? Well, that is true! But fear not! Because the Talonflame-is-really-good-at-life train is here! Okay, so first off, Lucario is nowhere near threatening to the titans of OU. He'll get smacked likely before he can pull off a Swords Dance. Talonflame, however... Talonflame gets around. He's the epitome of revenge killer. Move along, Ditto. He forces all of the switches. All of them. Now, I don't feel like writing whole paragraphs, so here's a bulleted list on why Talonflame is generally better.

~Flying is a far better priority typing than Normal. Also, with Talonflame receiving STAB, 120 Base Power, on top of that, priority, there's not much that likes a Brave Bird, even when unboosted.

~Fire is better coverage than Dark. It doesn't even come with the defense drop penalty! Cool!

~Talonflame has a form of reliable recovery. Not just that, but PRIORITY recovery. So, if you're feeling confident, Talonflame has TWO switch predict options. Compared to Lucario's one, which is just a "do it or you're useless" thing and not really a switch option.

I kinda ran out of bullets that couldn't go into a paragraph, but just take my word for it, Talonflame is just better. If you can get Talonflame in on something that can't counter it, he's terrifying. Once he dances, he smacks around all of the things. All of them. With Flying being un-immunity-ridden, and Fire/Flying only being taken well by Heatran, who doesn't appreciate too many Swords Dance boosted Brave Birds by the way...
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 162-192 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 162-192 (42 - 49.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Also, on, top, of, thaaaaaaaaaaat, Talonflame is 2phast2kwik, so you don't have to use that atrocious base 90 speed that Lucario has with the risk of getting outsped.

It's kinda hard to explain, but Talonflame is just... he's just better than Lucario, okay?

Wait, this isn't fair at all. Lucario and Talonflame have completely different checks and counters. Further, Lucario's Extreme Speed is an arguably better cleaning attack than Brave Bird because you can't out-priority it. You also seemed to miss that Heatran is wrecked by +2 Close Combat and can't simply be revenge-killed by a priority user, and you neglected to mention Iron Tail, which can wreck Clefable and other would-be counters. I know that Lucario isn't perfect, but can we please stop writing articles saying not to use OU-viable sets? It may not be an A+ threat, but Lucario isn't so bad that you shouldn't use him.

 

[AM]

This ^. They play different roles and have no real comparisons to be used other than having priority and SD. Lucario is a cleaner on HO anyways so that one didn't make sense.

 

[jzplr]

Wait, this isn't fair at all. Lucario and Talonflame have completely different checks and counters. Further, Lucario's Extreme Speed is an arguably better cleaning attack than Brave Bird because you can't out-priority it. You also seemed to miss that Heatran is wrecked by +2 Close Combat and can't simply be revenge-killed by a priority user, and you neglected to mention Iron Tail, which can wreck Clefable and other would-be counters. I know that Lucario isn't perfect, but can we please stop writing articles saying not to use OU-viable sets? It may not be an A+ threat, but Lucario isn't so bad that you shouldn't use him.

I just don't see how he's viable. I have a feeling the only reason he's used literally at all is because of his popularity. I've seen quite a few Lucarios and I can't remember a single time he knocked out any more than one of my 'mons, if any. Talonflame might not be that similar, but come on, what is similar to Lucario? Terrakion? Nope. Diggersby? Nope.

All I'm trying to say is that Lucario is far more trouble than he's worth. He's too unreliable to have as a team member when he's only working, what, 5-10% of the time?

 

[Froggyboy]

Lucario is B- Rank on the viability thread, so I don't think this fits into the thread for clearly outclassed Pokemon.
Also, how is 110/115/90 offensive stats bad? That's better than M-Altaria for example.
While Lucario isn't the best, Talonflame is far from a fair comparison, and Lucario has plenty of options for SD. Iron Tail, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, etc.

I just don't see how he's viable. I have a feeling the only reason he's used literally at all is because of his popularity. I've seen quite a few Lucarios and I can't remember a single time he knocked out any more than one of my 'mons, if any. Talonflame might not be that similar, but come on, what is similar to Lucario? Terrakion? Nope. Diggersby? Nope.

All I'm trying to say is that Lucario is far more trouble than he's worth. He's too unreliable to have as a team member when he's only working, what, 5-10% of the time?

He's also used because he is a good late game sweeper with high attacking stats, high powered moves, strong priority, and slight unpredictability. You aren't OU for a while just because of 'popularity'.

Personal experience doesn't really say how good a Pokemon is or not. I haven't encountered many Specs Sylveon, or did it ever cause me trouble, but I still think it is a good Pokemon.

 

[jzplr]

Lucario is B- Rank on the viability thread, so I don't think this fits into the thread for clearly outclassed Pokemon.
Also, how is 110/115/90 offensive stats bad? That's better than M-Altaria for example.
While Lucario isn't the best, Talonflame is far from a fair comparison, and Lucario has plenty of options for SD. Iron Tail, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, etc.


He's also used because he is a good late game sweeper with high attacking stats, high powered moves, strong priority, and slight unpredictability. You aren't OU for a while just because of 'popularity'.

Personal experience doesn't really say how good a Pokemon is or not. I haven't encountered many Specs Sylveon, or did it ever cause me trouble, but I still think it is a good Pokemon.

I agree with you. I think Lucario can be used correctly and Talonflame isn't a DIRECT UPGRADE, but I can't see how it's useful. Swapping moveslots for things like Ice Punch means NOTHING because Lucario loves the extra coverage, and even though Crunch was just because I copypasta'd from Smogon doesn't mean that Focus Sash users and Ghosts are suddenly threatened.

I just find Talonflame far better just in general.

 

[Froggyboy]

I agree with you. I think Lucario can be used correctly and Talonflame isn't a DIRECT UPGRADE, but I can't see how it's useful. Swapping moveslots for things like Ice Punch means NOTHING because Lucario loves the extra coverage, and even though Crunch was just because I copypasta'd from Smogon doesn't mean that Focus Sash users and Ghosts are suddenly threatened.

I just find Talonflame far better just in general.

What Focus Sash users threaten Lucario outside Breloom may I ask? And Ghost types are still wrecked by Crunch, pretty sure a +2 super effective move coming off an 110 attack stat is pretty threatening.

Just because a Pokemon has more viability than an other, doesn't mean the other is a bad Pokemon and shouldn't be used.

 

[Der Twist]

He's used because Steel and Fighting provide fantastic offensive coverage and Extreme Speed is one of the best, if not the best priority move in the game. Lucario has potential to be a very potent SD sweeper with how well he can check some common threats. Yes, his bulk and speed hold him back from being truly potent, that's why he's in UU and B- on the OU viability rankings, but he does have a niche which makes him very viable in certain situations.

 

[AM]

The point of this thread is to compare sets and mons who have similar roles but are far superior or inferior depending on the comparison. If they server entirely different roles there's no point in trying to establish not to use one of them. That's like comparing Azumarill and Diggersby and saying not to use one or the other.