np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned

[Eoin482]

This is just like Megagross. Something that isn't broken at all is being considered for ban, simply because it "restricts teambuilding", "2HKOs everything", and "we want to see how the metagame changes". I will explain why those accusations are similarly false.

"It restricts teambuilding!"
That's almost irrelevant when literally every A+ & S tier Pokemon restricts teambuilding as well. You either keep them in mind, or else you will fail. Stop being lazy and put a Hoopa-U check on your team! I assure you, it isn't difficult...Any decently strong physical attacker at least max 127 base speed will do, and that's for scarf (mega bunny & bee). Specs have more checks than I can count, but Talonflame & Garchomp are my favorite.

"2HKOs almost every switch-in!"
So does Band Azumarill, Specs Chandelure, Band Rampardos, Band Haxurus, etc. Doesn't make them broken, and they are either faster than Hoopa-U, stronger, or have priority. Fact is, every Pokemon can only have 4 moves, and choice items locks you into a single move as a payment for increased speed or power. For example, Psyshock is a free switch in for every dark type in OU. A choice-locked Hoopa-U would normally have no choice but to keep switching out whenever it attacks, because it is just too freaking easy to revenge kill this "banworthy" Pokemon.

"We wanna see how the metagame shifts"
This is just a fancy way of saying "I don't have any real reasons to ban this pokemon other than to see what happens". That is just...*sigh*

We're supposed to ban something if it's BANWORTHY! Nothing more, nothing less!

I forgot to say, I choose no ban!

I understand your point of view but I feel you are misinterpreting the reasons behind this suspect.

It is restrictive to teambuilding because if you use stall you absolutely must have a niche answer to Hoopa U; the current crop of OU has nothing that comes close. This comes down to simple base stats. Clefable, one of the most common dark switch ins in the tier, has base 95/70 physical defenses. Hoopa's attack is 160. It's a mismatch. The irony with Hoopa is that it can barely even be called centralising because the counters that a centralising poke would force you to run simply don't exist.

Every S rank pokemon cannot be said to restrict teambuilding in the same way. Again it is simply down to raw stats. Zard X has 130 attack with no ability to hold an item, Clefable relies entirely on its abilities, Manaphy is scary vs full stall but it has viable counters. The difference is that naturally synergistic teams of all styles can run viable counters to these pokemon. Clearly not every team will counter every pokemon, but a well built one will have offensive checks to the things it has no safe switch ins to. A really good team should then consider the likely switch ins to a check, and judge whether they have a counter to that, which can hand them the momentum back.

Nobody is arguing that Hoopa isn't easy to check, but it is the lack of natural counters which makes it restrictive. In addition, the Pursuit argument generally relies on Hoopa being choice locked. It won't drop to a 40 base power neutral move if it stays in and goes for Focus Blast, this isn't an Alakazam we're talking about.

It doesn't 2hko almost every switch in. With the right set, it 2hkos everything. Banded Azumarill, the only standard pokemon you mentioned, has switch ins like Rotom-w, Mega Scizor, Skarm, Amoonguss, Mega Slowbro, and if you consider the danger of locking yourself into Superpower you can also list things like Ferrothorn.

The other pokemon you listed are not currently OU but I can explain why they are not up for suspects in their own tier. Specs Chandy is countered by Snorlax, Blissey and Umbreon for example. Banded Haxorus has fewer counters but due to the kind of attacks it would be using it has a tendency to hand over momentum once it gets a kill. I don't know anything about PU so I can't account for banded Rampardos but if stall is a thing that low in ther tiers i guess it would have a similar effect as Hoopa.

It can of course only have 4 moves but the fact is It can run sets like Specs Psyshock, Dark Pulse, Thunderbolt Focus Blast that have no viable switch ins.

Just to point out something; none of the other wallbreakers are "stronger" as you suggest. Hoopa U holds the title of best mixed offenses in the game after Deoxys attack and Mega Rayquaza.

The point you have about people just wanting to see how the meta game evolves is fair in cases that it is true, but to be fair a lot of people have put forward carefully reasoned arguments about Hoopa's unhealthy effect on the tier.

Edit: Sorry, didn't realise a few people had addressed this comment already. Don't want to pick on anybody :b

 

[QuickBH]

Honestly not a big fan of this ban, I understand that stall has 0 switch-ins for this but Tornadus-T, Scarf Landorus-T, M-Scizor, Bisharp, Keldeo, and any priority user are quite prevalent these days, and the fact is people have been talking about how unhealthy Pokemon have been for metagame for ages. This isn't DPPt, we can't come to a "true" balanced state like we could then. Honestly we've been talking about "unhealthy" (which is incredibly subjective, might I add) for ages rather than actually broken or metagame changing. I can't just shove a Hoopa-U on a team and decimate a team when many teams carry 2-3 ways to beat this Pokemon and prevent it from doing anything, and not due to Hoopa-U's existence, but because the Pokemon that beat it are good Pokemon. Honestly, this kind of turns me away from this ban and this whole process in general.

 

[BlueLobster]

Honestly not a big fan of this ban, I understand that stall has 0 switch-ins for this but Tornadus-T, Scarf Landorus-T, M-Scizor, Bisharp, Keldeo, and any priority user are quite prevalent these days, and the fact is people have been talking about how unhealthy Pokemon have been for metagame for ages. This isn't DPPt, we can't come to a "true" balanced state like we could then. Honestly we've been talking about "unhealthy" (which is incredibly subjective, might I add) for ages rather than actually broken or metagame changing. I can't just shove a Hoopa-U on a team and decimate a team when many teams carry 2-3 ways to beat this Pokemon and prevent it from doing anything, and not due to Hoopa-U's existence, but because the Pokemon that beat it are good Pokemon. Honestly, this kind of turns me away from this ban and this whole process in general.

Just saying as an offense user that has Torn-T, Bish and Keldeo as well as (non scarfed) Lando on my main laddering team, I have had moments where I have a Hoopa in front of me and can't do anything but sack a mon. You are saying that a team with these does not care about hoopa, and while I care about it less than stall/fat balance teams do, it can still pose a problem in practice despite me having 5 mons that win it in theory. You have 1 turn to guess it's set once it's in, and it's goodbye to something if you guess wrong, sometimes even if you guess correctly. A good player can easily get one in as well, people say it's hard to get in but it isn't so hard it makes it not broken. Yes unhealthy is awfully subjective, but I'm sure most will agree the meta was a lot better before Hoopa's release.

 

[Asek]

Hey guys, I'd like to see Hoopa-U be banned

reason: I can't play stall with hoopa around and i think metagame diversity in which everything is viable and can be played is a nessecity because i dont understand tiering and will vote for the metagame in which my mega abomasnow stall can work (hoopa-u stops this :///), like come on 2hko'ing everything in the meta what is this CB terrakion in BW1? thats the first time this has ever happened which makes hoopa-u broken in my opinion, you may have ur own but its probably wrong js.

please ban this unprecedented monstrosity

 

[pokemonisfun]

If metagame diversity is so important then why aren't we complaining about lack of HO in Adv - HO was really "invented" with set up sweepers in DPP. A question we need to ask and answer is at what point do we accept gamefreak's decisions in making tiering policy - they are the ones creating monsters regularly with 150+ base offenses and boosting moves, not smogon tiering policy.

 

[Starmei]

Ban

Gonna keep this short because, even though the suspect is relatively new, most points about Hoopa have already been brought up to a degree and I'd rather not sit around repeating the same arguments for 20 pages. Very limiting in teambuilding yada yada no real switchins zzz unhealthy metagame. Basically I just wanted to address a few quick things:

If Hoopa is gone stall does not become unbeatable. Yes, Hoopa is very good against stall/more bulky teams as there are pretty much 0 safe switchins to a set like Specs Hoopa. However, Hoopa is by no means the only threat to bulky teams in OU, there are in fact many and I don't believe stall will become significantly better if Hoopa is banned.

http://prntscr.com/am0x08 - Shoutouts p2 for the role compendium. Ignoring the failed images, I hope this can provide at least some idea of why Hoopa is not the only thing stopping stall from being significantly more common sight.

"Hoopa provides no defensive synergy and is extremely frail" On the physical side, yes, Hoopa is clearly quite frail and a 4x weakness to U-Turn doesn't exactly help that. However, on the special side Hoopa actually has pretty decent bulk even when uninvested allowing it to survive a LO Draco from Latios after rocks, Specs Keldeo HPump after rocks & even live a Fire Blast from CharY. Being able to live these special hits pretty much allows Hoopa to stay in vs these things and get a kill if it wants to because it doesn't really have a safe switchin.

Having this decent SpD can be pretty useful, especially considering its typing. Being immune to Psyshock, surviving a Draco & being able to get a kill whenever it can fire off a move puts immense pressure on Latias/os when they're inside. Other Psychics like Zam, Celebi, Mew, Starmie, etc too (hence Signal Beam Zam.)

tbh I'm too lazy to expand on the obvious or restate things that are going to be thrown around 100 more times in this thread any more than I have done already so I'll just leave you with this quote from AM

AM: this mexican was good but it felt like hoopa was coming out of my ass

 

[BK]

Sooo, a stall breaker should be able to one v six always? Man, your hate for stall has really blinded ya. No stall breaker should always be able to one v six, it is stupid to think so.

I Don't hate stall , conversely i like play Stall , and we are not talking about stall breakers , we are talking about Hoopa-U , and as i said before in a metagame where his check are at least one per team this mon cannot be broken.

 

[BlueLobster]

I Don't hate stall , conversely i like play Stall , and we are not talking about stall breakers , we are talking about Hoopa-U , and as i said before in a metagame where his check are at least one per team this mon cannot be broken.

What on Stall is a reliable hoopa check, may I ask? Sorry to burst your bubble but there really isn't a reliable answer to every Hoopa set on stall, or even most hoopa sets.

 

[Ijon Tichy]

I'm kinda wonder why we are suspecting hoopa-u if it is only dangerous against some teams?

Right now (or more accurate, just a while ago) Hoopa was everywhere. Hoopa HYPE! Every team needs hoopa, stall too!

However I don't think that hoopa is that good. Of course it breaks some walls, however it has flaw and it get tossed by HO, or even BO. It does well against fat balance and stall (and only those without trappers!).

So why are suspecting mon which is checked by every single psychical attacker, every single priority user, every traper, every u-turner and even few special attackers? Maybe fix ya teams?

Metagame has changed by specs hoopa. Some teams turned to be unviable. Is that really bad thing? Why are you making ban only to protect some teams? You really want this in metagame? Not every team is viable, why aren't you making bans to protect other team? Like "Ban lati, cuz i dono hawe lati switchin, plz".

I will see you after few months after this suspect test when hype will be gone and hoopa turn into normal, average wallbreaker.

 

[eden]

How is slow volt-turn+hazards Hoopa-U specific support? Its not exactly debilitating to have to use those, and benefits other sweepers as well. It's just that Hoopa-U, with the ability to get in safely, just invalidates defensive checks even harder with hazards down . Dunno why people are saying those HAVE to be used for Hoopa-U, which implies that volt-turn is some sort of specific team support that Hoopa-U in and of itself requires. That's generally good team structure for an offensive threat.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I Don't hate stall , conversely i like play Stall , and we are not talking about stall breakers , we are talking about Hoopa-U , and as i said before in a metagame where his check are at least one per team this mon cannot be broken.

The comment about the stall breakers was to counter your point about the other breakers sucking. They don't. On top of that, it also enforces my opinion that a stallbreaker such as Hoopa-U that can one v six stall is stupid, not to mention that it still preforms well against other play stalls, very well against balance. It also does a lot more work against offense then Anti-ban people would like you to think being able to swap into a ton of different sp. attackers but I am going to stop here because otherwise I am going to start wasting space restating all the other solid arguments presented by the pro-ban side that are already posted here.

 

[TerrorthornColt]

I Don't hate stall , conversely i like play Stall , and we are not talking about stall breakers , we are talking about Hoopa-U , and as i said before in a metagame where his check are at least one per team this mon cannot be broken.

However a Check is very different from a Counter. Basically for anyone to use their check they must let something die to it and even the is switches out, finds a way back in and something ends up having to die again. Things like Stall have a hard time doing that. I mean I in particular play Balanced so I have about 2-3 checks to it on every team and I'm semi okay with sacing something off to take it out but if I mess up then all 2-3 checks are gone and I lose. Which is a definite possibility since most bring Hoopa-U in through a slow Baton Pass or Volt-Turn. If you adapt to it, it has enough sets to adapt to meta in itself leading to a cycle of suspect tests and it still not being banned. Which then will make it the true king of OU despite its low speed and physical defense and x4 weakness to U-Turn (which not every team has room for a U-Turn user unless it's mainly offensive).

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I'm kinda wonder why we are suspecting hoopa-u if it is only dangerous against some teams?

Right now (or more accurate, just a while ago) Hoopa was everywhere. Hoopa HYPE! Every team needs hoopa, stall too!

However I don't think that hoopa is that good. Of course it breaks some walls, however it has flaw and it get tossed by HO, or even BO. It does well against fat balance and stall (and only those without trappers!).

So why are suspecting mon which is checked by every single psychical attacker, every single priority user, every traper, every u-turner and even few special attackers? Maybe fix ya teams?

Metagame has changed by specs hoopa. Some teams turned to be unviable. Is that really bad thing? Why are you making ban only to protect some teams? You really want this in metagame? Not every team is viable, why aren't you making bans to protect other team? Like "Ban lati, cuz i dono hawe lati switchin, plz".

I will see you after few months after this suspect test when hype will be gone and hoopa turn into normal, average wallbreaker.

Hoopa-U will never be an "average wallbreaker" I'm honestly not trying to make a pro -ban statement here, but I feel that this post lacks any substance whatsoever. So, what you mean when you say "fix your teams" is "don't use stall" which is just showing how Hoopa-U can invalidate almost all stall. It's perfectly okay to be antiban on Hoopa-U, but what completely sets me off about this post is your braindead comment on "Ban lati, cuz i dono hawe lati switchin, plz" You seem to forget that specs Hoopa-U has absolutely no switchins. This is in very stark contrast to Latios, who has a verity of switchins like Ferrothorn, Msciz, Tyranitar, Heatean, Klefki, and Mgarde. Yes, I'm aware it can get by many of these with the proper coverage move (Earthquake of HP fire) but there are drawbacks to running each of those. Also, just because you have a trapper doesn't immediately make your stall team safe against Hoopa-U, as all of them are OHKOed by focus blast. Furthermore, Scarf TTar (which is probably the most common trapper on stall) fails to OHKO Hoopa-U switching out. In fact, without any prior damage, TTar fails to OHKO with any of its moves and will drop to Focus blast. You mention it breaks some walls. No. It breaks every. Single. Wall. My point here is that your post is extremely flawed and not really applicable to this discussion. Also, even if hoopa-U isn't banned, it will never be an "average wallbreaker" unless something drastic happens in OU. It will still be absolutely no switchins, and stall will still just basically drop to it.

 

[konstantellos]

I would also like to bring up another important point to support what I said in my primary post on the first page (that Mega Sableye should either both stay or both go). How healthy is a metagame that is very matchup-based? Yes, if Hoopa-U goes away stall can still be broken but because of Mega Sableye you have to dedicate a lot of your team's potential to stallbreaking and this makes you vulnerable to more offensive teams which results in a very matchup-based meta. I don't want to prepare for stall and get blown back by offense or vice versa. In OU it happens all the time. This does not happen in any other tier to that degree and the reason has a mame (Mega Sableye). The reason Mega Sableye stayed was that Hoopa-U exists and now you want to ban Hoopa-U?

 

[GOthee]

I would also like to bring up another important point to support what I said in my primary post on the first page (that Mega Sableye should either both stay or both go). How healthy is a metagame that is very matchup-based? Yes, if Hoopa-U goes away stall can still be broken but because of Mega Sableye you have to dedicate a lot of your team's potential to stallbreaking and this makes you vulnerable to more offensive teams which results in a very matchup-based meta. I don't want to prepare for stall and get blown back by offense or vice versa. In OU it happens all the time. This does not happen in any other tier to that degree and the reason has a mame (Mega Sableye). The reason Mega Sableye stayed was that Hoopa-U exists and now you want to ban Hoopa-U?

Now i remember a guy answering that there are other stall breakers like zard ,gard, etc(inbefore this answer to your post)even if hoopa goes, that really doesnt matter since i count the number of counters to mega sab. He doesnt certainly kos pokemon like hoopa, but his potential damage and support its comparable to the offensive pressence hoopa has.

 

[Gengarino]

I would also like to bring up another important point to support what I said in my primary post on the first page (that Mega Sableye should either both stay or both go). How healthy is a metagame that is very matchup-based? Yes, if Hoopa-U goes away stall can still be broken but because of Mega Sableye you have to dedicate a lot of your team's potential to stallbreaking and this makes you vulnerable to more offensive teams which results in a very matchup-based meta. I don't want to prepare for stall and get blown back by offense or vice versa. In OU it happens all the time. This does not happen in any other tier to that degree and the reason has a mame (Mega Sableye). The reason Mega Sableye stayed was that Hoopa-U exists and now you want to ban Hoopa-U?

Hoopa-U in the first place doesnt exists to just counter M-Sableye in the first place, it counters many many teams and hits like a truck even when in a disadvantage, while M-Sableye can only status and pp stall you if you do not have a good strat. M-Sableye is a different kind of stall pokemon, but it gets really blown away by curslax (both) or any kind of boosting with guts. Hoopa is a fun pokemon to play, but not so much if you run into a Hoopa vs Hoopa after literally sweeping between both teams.
Also, why bringing a pokemon that has nearly nothing to do with him? He can status Hoopa, but if he doesnt mega evolve to get a scumbag prankster parafusion or something like that is screwed, while he can be one shotted ( i have seen and experienced that more than one time, me using Hoopa) bi one physical move as sableye tends to be sp defensive, and either you build a mixed defense set wich leaves the majority of pokes with less than 300 hp, they can be played around by the rest of the team, we're talking about 1 pokemon blocking 3-4 pokes in a stall comp ( or even all) or 1-2 in a normal comp, while having the power to send you to "another dimension!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". I hope you now understand that stall comps can be broken without much effort, whereas defeating Hoopa is a pain.

 

[eden]

I would also like to bring up another important point to support what I said in my primary post on the first page (that Mega Sableye should either both stay or both go). How healthy is a metagame that is very matchup-based? Yes, if Hoopa-U goes away stall can still be broken but because of Mega Sableye you have to dedicate a lot of your team's potential to stallbreaking and this makes you vulnerable to more offensive teams which results in a very matchup-based meta. I don't want to prepare for stall and get blown back by offense or vice versa. In OU it happens all the time. This does not happen in any other tier to that degree and the reason has a mame (Mega Sableye). The reason Mega Sableye stayed was that Hoopa-U exists and now you want to ban Hoopa-U?

Huh? Are you implying in anyway that Mega Sableye's being there or not being is related to Hoopa-U staying or not? How is Mega Sableye relevant to Hoopa-U's metagame when it's not even a proper switch in to any of the sets? Hoopa-U and Mega Sableye are two completely sperate issues to be honest, and yes Mega Sableye is matchup inherent in that the teams it is run on are generally stall, which indeed have a terrible matchup versus a variety of things even excluding the existence of Hoopa-U ranging from CB Azu, to TG Manaphy, to MVoir, to SD MCross, Taunt/WoW Mew(vs Non MEye stall), Taunt+BU TFlame(vs non-Toxic MEye teams) and so on ad infinitum. Mega Sableye certainly did not stay because of Hoopa-U, and if you build teams that lose to stall at team preview, and thus can't impose your own tempo on the game; then either build better/play better, because losing to stall in this metagame is pretty much a mark of being outplayed/not being prepared especially considering how easy stall is to break right now.

 

[Gengarino]

Now i remember a guy answering that there are other stall breakers like zard ,gard, etc(inbefore this answer to your post)even if hoopa goes, that really doesnt matter since i count the number of counters to mega sab. He doesnt certainly kos pokemon like hoopa, but his potential damage and support its comparable to the offensive pressence hoopa has.

With the introductiion of fairy types and that lil' cute serial killer called sylveon, or a belly drum slurpuff or azumarill play rough set can kill Sableye with ease, again, everyone has to run a trunk card in case something goes wrong.Hoopa is like having sceptile running with 3 sets that are difficult to predict, but with good stats.

 

[eden]

BD Slurpuff is in no way relevant, and neither is Sylveon to stall teams/bulkier teams especially when Hoopa-U is the stick against which they are being measured. Also talking about the quoted post neither of the Zard's break stall; Quagsire answers all variants of ZardX, while ZardY is taken care of by Chansey, unless its something specifically designed to counter team stall like, Solar Beam/DD/Flare Blitz ZardY; but except for that yeah.

 

[Gengarino]

Huh? Are you implying in anyway that Mega Sableye's being there or not being is related to Hoopa-U staying or not? How is Mega Sableye relevant to Hoopa-U's metagame when it's not even a proper switch in to any of the sets? Hoopa-U and Mega Sableye are two completely sperate issues to be honest, and yes Mega Sableye is matchup inherent in that the teams it is run on are generally stall, which indeed have a terrible matchup versus a variety of things even excluding the existence of Hoopa-U ranging from CB Azu, to TG Manaphy, to MVoir, to SD MCross, Taunt/WoW Mew(vs Non MEye stall), Taunt+BU TFlame(vs non-Toxic MEye teams) and so on ad infinitum. Mega Sableye certainly did not stay because of Hoopa-U, and if you build teams that lose to stall at team preview, and thus can't impose your own tempo on the game; then either build better/play better, because losing to stall in this metagame is pretty much a mark of being outplayed/not being prepared especially considering how easy stall is to break right now.

That's what i've been saying in my replies to them, stall comps are predictable and easy to play around, if someone starts with ferro you should know stealth and seeds are coming, or a prankster klef with toxic and screens, and much more. So if you can break this sets with original or just straight up strong comps there's no need to have in this tier ( at least for now) a poke that can break entire teams, being stall, offensive or anyone with proper checks and a huge patience.

 

[Unknown Warrior]

My opinion may not be worth much, but isn't it kinda unfair to limit votes for people high on the ladder when (I may be wrong on this) the high-end of the ladder has percentually higher rates of stall users, who are the most threatened by Hoopa-U?
I'm not anywhere on the Showdown ladder except random battles (lol) but the few really high-end users I have seen were primarily stall-oriented.

 

[jordanthejq12]

My opinion may not be worth much, but isn't it kinda unfair to limit votes for people high on the ladder when (I may be wrong on this) the high-end of the ladder has percentually higher rates of stall users, who are the most threatened by Hoopa-U?
I'm not anywhere on the Showdown ladder except random battles (lol) but the few really high-end users I have seen were primarily stall-oriented.

The point of instituting a qualification requirement for public suspect testing is to ensure that those voting have some degree of skill and knowledge of the tier in question. A fully-open test is liable to having its results swayed by the uninformed, those who would be, for example, voting no-ban out of a reflexive hatred of Smogon bans in general, or those who assume the OU council is full of stall-lovers. By making voters actually earn their votes, the voters have the opportunity to experience the metagame under the conditions specified (without Unbound, in this case) and make a more informed decision. Sure, some people have their minds set from the beginning and will not be swayed--but at least they've had the exposure to potentially change their perspective.

As somebody who could scarcely dream of the skill level necessary to earn reqs, it bothers me too. But I can definitely see from my experience with previous suspect threads that there's a reason for things to be like this.

 

[Albacore]

I agree with you that Ijon Tichy post was exaggerated, however Hoopa-U misses in its movesete perfect coverage.

Lets say you have:
dark pulse
psyshock
thunderbolt
fire punch

Now you cannot hit hard heatrans and ttars. Switch fire punch and you are problems with mega scizor. Switch thunderbolt and mandibuzz is couter. Switch psyshock and you are walled by chansey.

So you can't break everything with single set. Exactly like manaphy, kyurem-b

I mean, if you want to use a terrible Hoopa-U set that actually gets walled by things then fine, but just because there exists a Hoopa set with counters doesn't mean all Hoopa sets have counters, because they do not.

So do realise that while you use your Fighting coverage-less Hoopa set, most of the rest of us are using sets like Specs or Band which are not, in fact, walled by Dark types, or even anything.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I agree with you that Ijon Tichy post was exaggerated, however Hoopa-U misses in its movesete perfect coverage.

Lets say you have:
dark pulse
psyshock
thunderbolt
fire punch

Now you cannot hit hard heatrans and ttars. Switch fire punch and you are problems with mega scizor. Switch thunderbolt and mandibuzz is couter. Switch psyshock and you are walled by chansey.

So you can't break everything with single set. Exactly like manaphy, kyurem-b

Oh, I beg to differ.

Hoopa-U is being suspected for its specs set, which has no counters, and runs Dark Pulse, Psyshock, Focus Blast and Thunderbolt.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 198-234 (57.7 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO So, Msciz doesn't work. As for TTar and Tran...

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 330-390 (85.4 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO I don't believe I need to calc TTar, then. Moving on.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Chansey, Even if it's max HP (which isn't standard)

What I'm basically saying here is that hoopa, with a four move set, will not miss out on anything. And Albacore basically ninja'd me, so you might consider listening to him.

Tldr: Specs Hoopa-U can cover the entire metagame with one set.

 

[nLTk]

So I have skimmed some of the arguments regarding this suspect, and I take issue with some of the reasoning provided. Before I elaborate, I should mention that as of now, I believe that Hoopa-U should be banned, as the moment it is inside it either gets a kill or cripples its "check," which is probably only a check for that turn. As first mentioned by CBB, the Specs set in particular is frighteningly powerful. Yes, I am aware that this argument has been made.

What I don't agree with is the argument that Hoopa-U should be banned because it is extremely problematic for stall teams. My interpretation of this logic is "this hurts my preferred play style and should therefore be banned." In each Pokemon match, a significant factor is the matchup between the two teams. Just because you ran into something that you couldn't switch your Chansey into doesn't mean that it should be banned.

On a broader level, I am really, really concerned with how quickly the sentiment for this suspect turned to overwhelmingly in favor of the ban. Perhaps this is slightly ironic given my initial opinion, but when I look at Hoopa-U compared to previous suspected pokemon (most notably Aegislash, Greninja, and Mega-Mawile), it just doesn't compare in terms of how much it hurts the meta. I'm concerned that the current sentiment of ban is the result of Smogon's pro-ban culture in OU as opposed to genuine reasoning.

My main point is this: Throughout this suspect test, I encourage all players to ask themselves if Hoopa-U is truly good to the point where it can only be countered through VERY specific means, or simply one of the better offensive options in the current meta that has its weaknesses. As I said, I am inclined to say the former, but I have yet to contribute to the suspect test.

I haven't read this entire thread, and if this post is repetitive, I apologize. I would really appreciate a more experienced user's input on whether or not Hoopa-U has genuine weaknesses or simply "checks" that can only take one hit.