Minior Discussion

[dsm77773]

SR weakness is a problem if you intend to switch in multiple times. He still will be in defense form after one hit. You'll probably just send it out once and only once, and then you just kill as many things as you can until you crash and burn, like a true meteor. No need to worry about chip damage

SR + 1 hit while setting up might leave Minior in easy priority range, ending its sweep prematurely. But yeah, only need to worry about SR once.

 

[Bombkirby]

SR + 1 hit while setting up might leave Minior in easy priority range, ending its sweep prematurely. But yeah, only need to worry about SR once.

You have to kill all priority users before sweeping. It's defenses drop at half hp when it's ability activates. It just can't survive any super effective priority hits or sucked punches at half up and with low defenses at that point either way.

That's why I'm wondering how useful White Herb really is. Is fixing your dropped defenses from shell smash really going to help after losing your armor and switching forms while being at half hp?

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

I did a bunch of calculations earlier today and learned that even with 0 speed investment the only unboosted thing that outspeeds a Minior with Shell Smash in OU right now is Weavile with a Choice Scarf.
....

Anyway, here, I did a bunch, these are assuming you are in unarmored form and a Shell Smash used.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the armored form is immune to status effects, so no need to worry about stuff like Klefki while you're setting up.

+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 345-406 (87.5 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior in Sun: 74-88 (28.3 - 33.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO (Just to show Minior might work in Sun with Solar Beam)
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 310-366 (95.9 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 648-764 (150.3 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 435-513 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Mega Charizard X: 456-536 (127 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 276-325 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-261 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Ferrothorn can't safely switch into Minior)
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 342-403 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (Mega sets tank and kill us though)
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 16 HP / 8 Def Mega Gardevoir: 460-543 (163.7 - 193.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Minior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 396-468 (116.1 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 714-842 (221 - 260.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 205-243 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (can't switch into you)
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, this is funny but even with absolutely no speed investment, Minior has 1 more speed than max speed Excadrill, so Minior outspeeds and OHKOs any non-Air Balloon Excadrill, even in sand.

However, Minior is beat by Mega Slowbro and Sableye, Ferrothorn if you're not careful, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, any Azumarill, Landorus-T.

Though since you outspeed anything with shell smash, I think you can invest fully in both atk and spatk and run a mixed set. Almost nothing can switch into Minior besides stuff like Mega Aggron.
Landorus-T destroys Minior though so maybe HP Ice is gonna be a thing if it's srs since it also lets you beat Garchomp. I don't know.

 

[Ash Borer]

It's probably worth going mixed if you need literally 0 speed to outpace the entire metagame. I would imagine Power Gem gets past phys def Skarmory a lot easier for example. Not missing is handy too innit?

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

It's probably worth going mixed if you need literally 0 speed to outpace the entire metagame. I would imagine Power Gem gets past phys def Skarmory a lot easier for example. Not missing is handy too innit?

With no speed investment and the guaranteed Shell Smash, Minior hits 552 speed. There's no point investing in speed when you can get both offensive stats to 339/372 whether or not you want a specially or physically superior Minior and still outspeed everything. Minior's special movepool is Psychic, Power Gem, Solar Beam and Dazzling Gleam, enough to warrant the investment on something it can't cover physically.

I would go Naughty or Quiet, as well. Priority moves are all (but one) physical so it's better to weaken the stat where you'll get OHKOed either way and keep up the other one where you might survive if it's Aqua Jet in sun or unboosted on a defensive build.

 

[Kadabrium]

scarf raikou only hits 541 speed for ref

 

[Bombkirby]

That's nice to know. Mixed opens up a lot more options.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

That's nice to know. Mixed opens up a lot more options.

You don't have to worry as much about the opponent being stubborn about getting you to half or less either, by the way. Sure, Minior's armored form only has 60/60/60 offensive stats, but if we use our 252 atk and spatk EVs, its atk, spatk and speed reach 480, 438 and 312, respectively. These are not numbers that are usually able to sweep, but the looming threat of a status-immune mixed sweeper getting a second Shell Smash off would give your opponent enough incentive to get you below half. 480 attack, after all, gives it the same attack as Rampardos, and a second Shell Smash would be fine because, while you have a bit less speed (468) than unarmored form with +4 60/60/60, your atk and spatk will become enough to sweep with and you will be immune to burn, paralysis, toxic stall, etc.

Can't ignore Minior. The difference between 1 and 2 Shell Smashes is only one turn, after all.

The point of this post was to quickly dispel "Minior is situational because it relies on the opponent hitting you !!" Yeah, that's optimal, but even without it, you're letting it hit +700 atk/spatk and 468 speed if you try to play that game.

 

[oreofestar]

This is definitely my favorite sweeper of the gen...only 5 non legendary/UBs have over 110 speed this gen after all

 

[Bombkirby]

You don't have to worry as much about the opponent being stubborn about getting you to half or less either, by the way. Sure, Minior's armored form only has 60/60/60 offensive stats, but if we use our 252 atk and spatk EVs, its atk, spatk and speed reach 480, 438 and 312, respectively. These are not numbers that are usually able to sweep, but the looming threat of a status-immune mixed sweeper getting a second Shell Smash off would give your opponent enough incentive to get you below half. 480 attack, after all, gives it the same attack as Rampardos, and a second Shell Smash would be fine because, while you have a bit less speed (468) than unarmored form with +4 60/60/60, your atk and spatk will become enough to sweep with and you will be immune to burn, paralysis, toxic stall, etc.

Can't ignore Minior. The difference between 1 and 2 Shell Smashes is only one turn, after all.

The point of this post was to quickly dispel "Minior is situational because it relies on the opponent hitting you !!" Yeah, that's optimal, but even without it, you're letting it hit +700 atk/spatk and 468 speed if you try to play that game.

I guess the stat immunity (if that's correct) is really the selling point, not the boosted stats then.

Is quiet nature really enough to still outspeed most things though?

 

[Siggu]

If priority is the problem, Tapu Lele is the solution. Set that up (better with that Terrain Extender item), clear way for a Minior switch-in. Shell Smash, take a hit... and GG. 3/5 turns of Minior sweeping without risk is too much to handle.

And Minior happens to be able to learn Psychic...

 

[Bombkirby]

If priority is the problem, Tapu Lele is the solution. Set that up (better with that Terrain Extender item), clear way for a Minior switch-in. Shell Smash, take a hit... and GG.

And Minior happens to be able to learn Psychic...

We figured out earlier in the thread that Psychic terrain protects you from priority attacks. Previously we were under the impression it made the USER of the priority move fail the attack, but it just makes the TARGET immune. And our target is a Flying type. So it's unaffected by terrain.

 

[Siggu]

We figured out earlier in the thread that Psychic terrain protects you from priority attacks. It doesn't work on flying/levitating Pokemon.

It has to have some sort of flaw after all.

Forgot it had that Flying-type :P

Reflect, then?

 

[Retro64]

If priority is the problem, Tapu Lele is the solution. Set that up (better with that Terrain Extender item), clear way for a Minior switch-in. Shell Smash, take a hit... and GG. 3/5 turns of Minior sweeping without risk is too much to handle.

And Minior happens to be able to learn Psychic...

Terrains only effect grounded Pokemon so Minior wouldn't be affected since he's half flying.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Bombkirby]

Forgot it had that Flying-type :P

Reflect, then?

Yeah I guess that's as good as it'll get. Or just kill all of their priority users and THEN send this guy out as a win-condition. It won't get OHKO'd by priority when in defense form most definitely. That'll just boost your damage before you finally hit them.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

Quiet and Naughty are what you want. The only thing that actually beats Minior is priority. Since almost all priority moves are physical, by choosing a -spdef nature instead of -def, you let your Minior survive, for example, Aqua Jet in sun or non-SE priority moves from unboosted Pokemon, more reliably, since you won't be hit to exactly 50% HP every time, unfortunately.

Adamant/Jolly and Modest/Timid are bad because, as we saw before, you don't need the speed from Jolly and Timid to outspeed everything and because you give up the ability to be a mixed sweeper by choosing one of those. When you're at 50% or less with Minior you're not expecting to survive another attack so there's no point trying to preserve your defenses much but with a -spdef nature you have just enough defense to survive more often because you'll realistically be hit to 35-45%, not 50% on the dot. In the long run it could save your Minior many times.

 

[ShinAion]

for VGC partner with Oranguru symbiosis, instruct Shell Smash/protect, pass assault vest/sitrus berry/weakness policy

 

[Bombkirby]

Quiet and Naughty are what you want. The only thing that actually beats Minior is priority. Since almost all priority moves are physical, by choosing a -spdef nature instead of -def, you let your Minior survive, for example, Aqua Jet in sun or non-SE priority moves from unboosted Pokemon, more reliably, since you won't be hit to exactly 50% HP every time, unfortunately.

Adamant/Jolly and Modest/Timid are bad because, as we saw before, you don't need the speed from Jolly and Timid to outspeed everything and because you give up the ability to be a mixed sweeper by choosing one of those. When you're at 50% or less with Minior you're not expecting to survive another attack so there's no point trying to preserve your defenses much but with a -spdef nature you have just enough defense to survive more often because you'll realistically be hit to 35-45%, not 50% on the dot. In the long run it could save your Minior many times.

Sounds solid. My only concern is almost all of its weaknesses are common special attacks (electric, ice, water, etc), but it won't be a problem if you time your switch-in at the proper moment ofc.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

I was having fun with doing calcs against ubers and seeing how Solar Beam would work if you put Minior in a sun team against stuff that would otherwise check it:

+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 392-464 (94.2 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Salamence: 390-458 (99.2 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Solar Beam calcs:
+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 430-506 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-W: 396-466 (130.2 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Aerodactyl Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 436-514 (107.9 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO <Physically bulky so you wouldn't OHKO without Solar Beam

+2 252+ SpA Aerodactyl Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 288-339 (90.2 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO <Quiet Minior, not Naughty

Minior can work in Sun teams since it also has a very unorthodox typing for a Pokemon in a Sun team on top of everything else.

 

[Bombkirby]

That is definitely an idea. Torkoal is looking more appealing with the new weirdly-typed sun-parters like Exeggutor / Minior.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

Calcs for UU Pokemon that would otherwise not care about Minior (Note: UU POKEMON THAT WOULD CHECK DAZZLING GLEAM MINIOR BUT NOT SUN MINIOR)

+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 384-454 (95 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 386-456 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 658-776 (171.3 - 202%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Swampert: 588-696 (145.5 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Minior Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Krookodile: 430-508 (109.1 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another thing to note about using Minior in a Sun team is that this gives HP Fire 90 power and turns it into a viable move for coverage. What does that cover in OU that would otherwise be hard for Minior to deal with?

+2 252 SpA Minior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor in Sun: 544-640 (158.6 - 186.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Minior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 428-504 (121.5 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Minior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory in Sun: 296-350 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

[BENDIEZ]

I hate the fact that the 120 base speed Minior is a whack gimmick form only achievable via ability. If that was it's base form, it could have been a nice Smasher despite it's somewhat narrow offensive movepool. 60/100/100 defenses is decent at best and would work if Minior had a good defensive typing. Rock/Flying has a few good resistances like Fire and Flying. Though quite a few weaknesses especially to priority moves and SR. With that mediocre bulk and exploitable weaknesses. Minior is getting one shotted by strong SE hits and really powerful neutral ones which means setting up is not always possible.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

I like Minior but its needs to have Shell Smash to not be totally outclassed by Aerodactyl. Even then its not too impressive. Doesnt its ability also boost its defenses and make it difficult to status? If so it would be a lot better than we might be making it out to be.

 

[DuplexBeGreat]

I like Minior but its needs to have Shell Smash to not be totally outclassed by Aerodactyl. Even then its not too impressive. Doesnt its ability also boost its defenses and make it difficult to status? If so it would be a lot better than we might be making it out to be.

I'm not sure what you mean by "boost" its defenses. The defenses are 60/100/100 and then they drop. The ability boosts the attack and speed. And yes, it is immune to status above 50% HP.

And people are making it out to be pretty damn good.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

First of all, it does have a basically guaranteed Shell Smash so it's not hard for it to outclass Mega Aerodactyl with the free turn of setup. I explained as well that even if you ignore it in armored form to try the OHKO, it still has 450-500 on both offenses as well as mid 300 speed.

It also has the ability to use special moves that Aerodactyl does not have. Since you can maximize both of its offensive stats, there are very few options that can properly wall you, as they'll be either more specially or physically inclined. As well, you can go Quiet for superior special moves.

Another thing to note is that, since it still outspeeds everything after Shell Smash, we have 256 EVs to spare. If it is so consistently being OHKOed with full HP somehow, we CAN spare like 72 EVs into HP. It won't change that both its offensive stats will be near 700.