Not a Golduck user, but as a constant victim of Rain, I am guessing Specs Tera Water Basculegion has largely taken its place due to its slightly higher power, better bulk, and additional Ghost STAB to annoy various Water resist like Walking Wake and Slowking + Extreme Speed immunity. I think Rain may be in a predicament too because Slowking-G can be annoying. All that said, Golduck still seems like it has its own niches over Basculegion-F like not being weak to Gambit Sucker punch, Nasty Plot, Grass Knot, and a slightly better speed tier, so its prob still worth ranking.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SV OU Post-HOME Viability Ranking Thread [ Final Update: Post #280 ]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
Stiff competition from other Ground types. I think early game hazard setters and mixed sets can promote progress and the matter can even be a lure, so this could be a saving grace. However, it’s very hard to fit with all of the added defensive utility other, competing Ground times provide in that team slot.
I’m p sure it clung on to a low ranking for a while, but also a lot of hazard removal that we hoped was going to pop up wasn’t ultimately added. In addition, Shadow Ball is better than ever, it’s speed tier improved relative to before, and offense in general is on the rise.
It just hasn’t surfaced as much on those teams with all of the Basc, Floatzel, and non-Swift Swim Rain abusers. Maybe one day someone will use it more regularly and it’ll find itself clinging to a lower rank again.
Usage =/= viability. Samu-H is an awesome Pokémon with a super relevant niche that helps a lot on common archetypes. But it is pretty limited in what it does and it doesn’t necessarily hold the same necessary characteristics that others in A+ or S possess, especially with Ting Lu also being a good Dark type Spike setter that’s more defensively oriented right now.I find it interesting thatis only ranked A despite being top 5 in usage.
Can I get a brief explanation on why my boy isn't ranked A+?
Why are there pokemon in D rank? Is D rank not for pokemon that are in the tier by usage but unviable? like for ex. in SM RU rankings mega bannete and jolteon are ranked in D rank and they are blacklisted from discussion... esp since they are seen as unviable
Very little viability, but it can be justified in fringe cases
I mean the fact that it’s unranked says it doesn’t really do anything in all honesty. People have tried AV, curse, specs, etc. and it’s just very mediocre. Other steel types provide more for longer and other offensive presences tend to outclass it. I wouldn’t bother with Goodra-H
I think D is the new C-... but yeah thanks for clarifying
Fair enough, thanks for the reply!
Didn't you guys choose to get rid of the D tier in SS because it was cluttering the VR too much ? What happened to make it come back :?
Last edited:
after all if useage = viability then electivire wouldn't have been in ou in dppt for so long XD as an infamous example
Weirdhamster
Banned deucer.
Why is hatterene B+? I feel like it’s much higher than it deserves to be. It’s niche is to block off hazards and poke holes with the cm set, but with samurott-h being able to set spikes up and enamorus (both forms) being able to challenge it as a cm fairy type, I feel like it’s lost it’s niche. They are also not uncommon picks, with both samurott and enamorus-t sitting in top 10 usage right now.
It unfortunately still sweeps much more than it should. Especially with screens it's pulling off quite an impressive amount of sweeps. It is using sub to beat garg/slowking-g easier 1v1, it can just win alot of balance match ups @ lead. So it has become a ridiculous offensive tool than a defensive tool to justify its rating.
Hatterene and Enamorus aren't doing the same Calm Mind shenanigans. Because you invest fully into Hatterene's physical bulk (giving a respectable 306 stat), along with Tera it can quickly become really hard to threaten it in any way that matters. For one, it blocks the most common means of status, so it can quickly find itself sweeping opposing Balance cores that rely on status to break down a Pokemon that bulky, as they can't win a game of sacks.
With Draining Kiss/Stored Power, the STAB is basically unwallable and Hatterene finds itself in situations that suit it decently commonly, against other BO/Balance.
Its flaws are glaring however, With only Draining Kiss, which needs boosts to get going, it relies on Leftovers to keep longevity. However, even with full HP and Defense investment, it is not good at taking repeated neutral hits, which its type has a lot of. Psychic being a really poor type in 2023, its primary Fairy-Type loses a Bug, Dark resistance and Ghost neutrality, meaning it is in fact fairly easy to beat down if you make aggressive plays against it. Which isn't very hard, because a team with Hatterene will often find themselves throwing it out repeatedly, and having to make a 50/50 on attack/hazard stack. Getting the wrong turns can cut down your Hatterene's life quickly.
This also leads to an unfortunate Tera reliance overall, as the teams that Hatterene wants to play on are trying to last longer than the standard SV offense team, and a good Tera can buy you some time, and is practically mandatory to get a Calm Mind DK/SP sweep off.
Lastly, as you say, Samurott-Hisui bypasses Hatterene's role compression, and can do considerable damage, meaning that you always need more hazard removal in the current metagame, generally. It is also notable, though, that things like Corviknight are arguably even more boned against Hazard Stack Offensive teams, making this not a dealbreaker in the context of the metagame, in my opinion.
Overall, Hatterene is a flawed Pokemon. On the teams its trying to fit on, though, it's a rare form of role compression. Hazard denial and being a wincon at the same time can be really good for BO/Balance, however Samurott-Hisui has indubitably lowered its viability. As Hatterene was ranked as an A rank Pokemon in the previous Viability Rankings, a two tier drop for it isn't unwarranted, and arguing it to be lower is fair, but Hatterene can enable a lot of cores.
It can be argued that B+ is a fairly good spot for Hatterene due to all of the above.
Others may disagree, but its ability to completely stop Ting-Lu from making any progress (which imo is the more dangerous of the two main hazard setters) is extremely valuable. Samur-H's lack of bulk makes it a bit easier to play around w/ conventional hazard removal (AKA Tusk) whereas Ting-Lu is more difficult to pin down since its absurdly bulky.
Tbh it’s just the way I did averages. D and C- are essentially the same thing.
This thread is now open to regular nominations. Questions can still be posted in the SQSA (simple questions, simple answers).
Imma make the first move like I did last gen.
Rises
A+ > S: I am aware that the S tier is overblown but Zappy does so much in one slot. Arguably one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into. Even harder if it runs U-Turn over Volt Switch. Its able to put off so much pressure and momentum while also being a strong defensive presence in the meta. Fending off the tier’s fighting types such as Valiant, Tusk, and Sneasler. Unless you are running Ting-Lu who just gets chipped down by constant spikes and Hurricanes, Treads, or Sandy Shocks, this thing is generating momentum and making progress. Switching into Glowking on a Volt Switch only for it to invite in a dangerous Gambit or Hisui-Samu. Fits on so many teams and fills a bunch of roles in on slot. If not S tier than S- is fine.
A- > A: Cinder fares or should I say “hares” very well with the offensive and hazard heavy meta of SV. Its not just Court Change that warrants this nom, it is also the raw power that it provides. Snatching momentum from Tusk and other checks with U-Turn, Sucker Punching Ghosts, and threatening Enamorus and Ghold with strong Pyro Balls. Simultaneously being great vs offense and even defense. I believe the VR should better reflect its capabilities in this hostile environment.
A- > A: This thing was controversial for a month since its debut and now it has settled down, but this thing is still a menace. The set I am nomming it for is Sub-Roar Wake. Being able to exploit Garg while also phazing in a meta so generous towards hazard stacking. There is also Specs Draco which trucks Water resists like Amoonguss, Pex, and Washtom. Clod has seen a decrease in usage with the popularity of Balloon Ghold and Bax along with the general competition from the other specially defensive ground-type spike setter Ting-Lu. Volcanion is forced to Tera and doesn’t live a Draco after chip while Azu takes a huge chunk from Specs. Offensive teams also generally don’t like switching into Wake, especially if it gets a speed boost from its Booster Energy sets or Agility. WW is dangerous to deal with without one of 2-3 specific counters.
B+ > A-: Ghold existing sucks and so does Zapdos existing, but I believe using Corv for hazard removal isn’t the way to go as long as Ghold is around. Instead it excels as a slow pivot that checks those pesky fairies and baits in Ghold for 5 of its teammates to exploit. ID and BU sets are nice against the physically-oriented sweepers like Gambit, Bax, BU Tusk, Dnite, and more. Corv loves it when Ghold comes in, cause it means it can invite in monsters like Gambit, H-Samu, or Hoopa-U to break holes and force progress. P.S: Use Mirror Armor, its better for Mystical Fire from Enam/Hatt.
B+ > A-: Like Zapdos, it generates momentum while being a pain to switch into. Sub-Tera Steel NP ruins bulkier teams that rely on Amoonguss and G-King to beat it while also keeping the defensive utility it is famous for. It isn’t the most durable wall nor the strongest breaker, but its the perfect blend of offensive/defensive utility that has made Washtom an OU staple since Gen 4.
B > B+: Another pesky Volt Switching Electric Type. It is one of the few safe switch ins to Zapdos while being hard to switch into itself. Spikes, EP, and strong Volt Switches make it a strong progress maker, as well as a lead. Booster Energy sets have shown to be solid leads that invert pressure against offensive teams. It does need to burn Tera most of the time, but eliminating a big threat, keeping hazards up, or generally being a pain to switch into is worth it despite the opportunity cost. Honestly just being a Zapdos switch in warrants this nom alone.
B > B+: While far from its glory days of SS OU, Torn-T is still a beast. Tera and Regenerator gives it so much flexibility, whatever to check/lure an important threat, or make it a stronger offensive threat. The speed tier is perfect for the current threats, more specifically Sneasler who can hax through the biggest bird (Zapdos) with Dire Claw. Torn cuts the BS and just murders it. Its bulk, Regen, and offensive movepool is good enough to trade hits to chip or KO certain targets in a pinch. It has also seen a few solid appearances in SPL, one set in particular that caught my interest is RH Torn, a staple item from its days in USUM OU. the most underrated Tera abuser.
C+ > B-: imo Molt’s best competitive gen since ADV despite this being the most hazard focused metagame. There is a reason it has been popping off from its occasional appearances in WCOP and ladder. It just checks so many things. Ice Spinner Tusk, CM Enamorus, Valiant, non-SE Zama, Ghold, Gambit, etc. Without Volc, the only Flame Body users rn are Tran and ofc Molt. It does require heavy support and thus doesn’t fit on many teams, which is why I’m not nomming it higher, but Molt has proved in the last few days that whatever team it fits on, Molt is gonna do work.
C > C+: Who would’ve guessed that an HO meta would be in Ditto’s favor. Stall has been seeing a bit of usage despite how hostile the meta is for it, and that is because of Ditto.
Weirdhamster’s team for reference
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rank-1-ditto-hazard-stack-stall-peaked-2160-1.3723705/
Ditto still does Ditto things. It scouts sets, stalls against fatter teams, and reverse sweeps HO teams. Despite recent meta developments, the meta remains aggressive as ever due to how volatile Terastilization is.
Drop
A- > B+: Ursa is good but overrated. It is not as splashable as the other A tier mons, only really seeing use on screens, TR, (and that one Quick Claw team). Ursaluna is also limited by the constant chip damage from hazards and Flame Orb. ID Corv blanks non-Fire Punch sets hard and the top offensive threats threaten to OHKO it outside of screens despite its fantastic bulk. Cocaine Bear was overrated to me when it was hyped up in the early Home meta and remains overrated to me.
Rises
Weirdhamster’s team for reference
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rank-1-ditto-hazard-stack-stall-peaked-2160-1.3723705/
Ditto still does Ditto things. It scouts sets, stalls against fatter teams, and reverse sweeps HO teams. Despite recent meta developments, the meta remains aggressive as ever due to how volatile Terastilization is.
Drop
Hot take VR machine version 2023 rebooting:
Dragapult+Iron Valiant S-->A+
Dragapult shouldn't be S rank. Kingambit, garg, ting-lu are all excellent choices in the current meta, and we got some new, more fringe, but very viable ghost resists in muk-alola and moltres-galar which have made the landscape not too friendly for pult imo. Obviously it's still a great mon but using it feels like an uphill battle ever since the meta landscape shifted when urshifu got banned-->gambit dominance returned. Everybody is ready for this mon and knows what it does, it feels about as strong as baxcalibur right now, not as strong as Kingambit.
Similarly, I think Iron Valiant shouldn't be S rank. We are seeing colbur glowking, hurricane zapdos, now moltres, bulky gholdengos, amoongus and many other forms of counterplay on teams. While I agree that Ival on paper can break past all of these, in practice you are either using SD or mixed booster energy these days. I have not seen CM+3 attacks or Specs for a while, and they're not that good in a glowking meta imo. Teams are just very prepared for ival right now, and I do not feel that I can just click tera and sweep often at the drop of a hat like kingambit does. It's not as dominant as gambit/tusk, and should not be sharing S rank with them.
I would be fine with both of these mons being S- if we are entertaining that rank, otherwise they should be at the top of A+.
Meowscarada B- --> B
This mon feels comparable to glimmora rn, as a lead and with the power of its other sets. A fast taunt is much better at keeping hazards off your field than mortal spin glimmora, sandy shocks, or H-samurott, and some HOs just want to keep hazards off their side more than they want them up. Not to say meow doesn't get up spikes well, it does fine, but that it can also focus on keeping them off. Vs fatter teams, the knock+taunt+spikes combo can make good progress as well, even on the lead set. Scarf Play Rough has the honor of being a viable scarfer which can revenge kill be ival, and overall I think this mon is being underrated on the current VR, even though we all know what it does.
Side note: I know many of my fans are wondering if I have given up on arboliva. Believe me, I did. I thought zapdos, glowking, and an overall very offensive meta would be too much for the olive branch to handle. Fear not, for I have found a new and unprecedented way to make arboliva work, even in the current meta. I must first gather replays, but look forward to it
Dragapult+Iron Valiant S-->A+
Dragapult shouldn't be S rank. Kingambit, garg, ting-lu are all excellent choices in the current meta, and we got some new, more fringe, but very viable ghost resists in muk-alola and moltres-galar which have made the landscape not too friendly for pult imo. Obviously it's still a great mon but using it feels like an uphill battle ever since the meta landscape shifted when urshifu got banned-->gambit dominance returned. Everybody is ready for this mon and knows what it does, it feels about as strong as baxcalibur right now, not as strong as Kingambit.
Similarly, I think Iron Valiant shouldn't be S rank. We are seeing colbur glowking, hurricane zapdos, now moltres, bulky gholdengos, amoongus and many other forms of counterplay on teams. While I agree that Ival on paper can break past all of these, in practice you are either using SD or mixed booster energy these days. I have not seen CM+3 attacks or Specs for a while, and they're not that good in a glowking meta imo. Teams are just very prepared for ival right now, and I do not feel that I can just click tera and sweep often at the drop of a hat like kingambit does. It's not as dominant as gambit/tusk, and should not be sharing S rank with them.
I would be fine with both of these mons being S- if we are entertaining that rank, otherwise they should be at the top of A+.
Meowscarada B- --> B
This mon feels comparable to glimmora rn, as a lead and with the power of its other sets. A fast taunt is much better at keeping hazards off your field than mortal spin glimmora, sandy shocks, or H-samurott, and some HOs just want to keep hazards off their side more than they want them up. Not to say meow doesn't get up spikes well, it does fine, but that it can also focus on keeping them off. Vs fatter teams, the knock+taunt+spikes combo can make good progress as well, even on the lead set. Scarf Play Rough has the honor of being a viable scarfer which can revenge kill be ival, and overall I think this mon is being underrated on the current VR, even though we all know what it does.
Side note: I know many of my fans are wondering if I have given up on arboliva. Believe me, I did. I thought zapdos, glowking, and an overall very offensive meta would be too much for the olive branch to handle. Fear not, for I have found a new and unprecedented way to make arboliva work, even in the current meta. I must first gather replays, but look forward to it
Last edited:
Why did Zamazenta-H get suspect tested when it isn’t even A+ tier? There are eleven mons ranked higher than Zamazenta-H. So logically, there should have been a suspect test/ban of Kingambit, Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, Gholdengo, Glowking, Garganacl, Enamorus-I, Zapdos, Ting-Lu, and Baxcalibur before it was ever even suspected?
Viability does not equal brokenness, most if not all of the mons above it are ranked higher not just for being overwhelmingly powerful, but for their defensive profile, utility, and role compression, which generally aren’t considered broken characteristics
Woop new meta who dis
A- -> A
Wake feels a lot more self sufficient compared to the pre home metagame. Especially as several of its checks took quite a hit in viability (clod, scream) while it generally has found more sets to use for better versatility. Even off of sun, specs feels more threatening with hard stops being less common, while substitute sets annoy bulkier teams, especially thos relying on walls like Toxapex to handle it. I like sub+2 attacks with sunny day, but i've seen a couple sub 3 attacks and even sub roar to abuse hazard stack well. Booster energy sets are good... In general it feels much more threatening than pre home and worthy of going up.
C+ -> B-/B
somewhat underappreciated defensive mon, Moltres does decently compress being able to check big threats like Great Tusk, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Zama and Enamorus, while not being horrible into Gholdengo or Cinderace either. Flame body is a great deterrent to physical attack spam, and the good stab combo lets it be threatening itself. Obviously needs Tusk to keep off rocks in case of knock off but this isn't unreasonable.
D -> C
Just a case of lead sets letting it keep usefulness as it still is capable of generatingnearly momentum thanks to spore and its power. I feel like this is underexplored also, but for now just focusing on lead sets.
Also disagree with
rising and 
dropping. Corv is very flawed defensively, and bulk ups ets are basically dead these days while defog sets have terrible passivity issues. Luna meanwhile is also flawed, but it holds unique roles on the teams it gets used on and is itself close to uncounterable defensively.
A- -> AWake feels a lot more self sufficient compared to the pre home metagame. Especially as several of its checks took quite a hit in viability (clod, scream) while it generally has found more sets to use for better versatility. Even off of sun, specs feels more threatening with hard stops being less common, while substitute sets annoy bulkier teams, especially thos relying on walls like Toxapex to handle it. I like sub+2 attacks with sunny day, but i've seen a couple sub 3 attacks and even sub roar to abuse hazard stack well. Booster energy sets are good... In general it feels much more threatening than pre home and worthy of going up.
C+ -> B-/Bsomewhat underappreciated defensive mon, Moltres does decently compress being able to check big threats like Great Tusk, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Zama and Enamorus, while not being horrible into Gholdengo or Cinderace either. Flame body is a great deterrent to physical attack spam, and the good stab combo lets it be threatening itself. Obviously needs Tusk to keep off rocks in case of knock off but this isn't unreasonable.
D -> CJust a case of lead sets letting it keep usefulness as it still is capable of generatingnearly momentum thanks to spore and its power. I feel like this is underexplored also, but for now just focusing on lead sets.
Also disagree with
rising and dropping. Corv is very flawed defensively, and bulk ups ets are basically dead these days while defog sets have terrible passivity issues. Luna meanwhile is also flawed, but it holds unique roles on the teams it gets used on and is itself close to uncounterable defensively.I'm going to suggest
C -> C+
also way higher
I don't really know exactly where, but I feel that this Pokemon is a bit underrated, and not just because of Stall, but Balance. Part of this is because everyone currently has Talonflame as a Physically Defensive spread, and I am going to suggest that that is not the only viable set, let alone the best one.
Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fire / Dark / Water (usually you won't Tera to be frank)
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature / Careful Nature
- Your STAB (I will go into detail later) / Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn / Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Roost
The main issue with this spread is it cannot come in on Kingambit most of the time, but this spread is not meant to do that. It's meant to check the Pokemon it doesn't need Defensive investment to check, Special Attacking Fairy-Types, pivot and Defog on most Gholdengo sets.
Let's go in order:
(pivot/1v1/burn proc)
4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 96-114 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
watch out for Booster Max Atk though
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 169-200 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(pivot/1v1)
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 121-143 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 162-191 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(more like iron variance amirite, it can check some well and not others, I'd be here forever for every set but here is SD since it is common right now)
252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 141-166 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 130-153 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
(pivot)
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 83-98 (23 - 27.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
(pivot/burn proc on setup sets, not band)
0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 90-106 (25 - 29.4%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
80 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 69-81 (19.1 - 22.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
+2 80 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 138-162 (38.3 - 45%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
(pivot/burn proc, knock off switch might not be worth, up to your discretion and team matchup)
252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 78-92 (21.6 - 25.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 66-78 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- 89.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 126-149 (35 - 41.3%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
(it actually can decently wall all conventional garchomp sets, funnily, don't come in on life orb modest chomp though)
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 108-127 (30 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 222-263 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 110-133 (30.5 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(pivot)
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 120-141 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
32 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 100-118 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 97-114 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(pivot, only if booster set)
132 SpA Iron Moth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 97-115 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 64-76 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- 59.1% chance to 4HKO
(can fish one time safely, do not rely at all)
(duh)
A lot of these should be self-explanatory. Using a SpDef spread, most of these sets on most of these Pokemon simply cannot easily touch Talonflame without good chip. However, Moltres is right there, and does all of this better, 100%. Moltres has much better stats, Talonflame is abouta take 30% from every neutral hit in the game.
What Talonflame has that Moltres doesn't, and I'd argue gives it a higher niche than C, is Defog. and without further ado, here is how this spread can scout and ultimately beat Gholdengo at the hazard game.
To start, for reference, the base 252 Spa Gholdengo Shadow Ball does a considerable chunk.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Talonflame: 123-145 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Which isn't nice, not at all. But, Talonflame does have reliably recovery, and with HDB it can come in, use attack/Pivot/Roost back to full. This spread makes it exactly one Speed higher than Timid No Scarf Gholdengo.
Scarf is more of a problem, due to the ability to click again. This is where you can run Tera Dark if you want, and attempt to beat it back, but generally, against most teams you want to keep your original typing. I went with SpAtk STAB on my sets but here is some calcs and pro's/con's for the main 4 I expect could have a niche.
-Flamethrower
No thrills. 2HKOs uninvested Gholdengo easily. Full accuracy. Struggles against invested, though most I've seen as of late are offensively invested.
0 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 164-194 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-Fire Blast
Slight thrills. Lower accuracy, but much more consistent against max HP Gholdengo. Much lower HP which could suck if you need to chase out Gholdengo repeatedly.
0 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 164-194 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 164-194 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
-Flare Blitz
Physical move, recoil, pretty high power. With Careful, will do considerably more to Gholdengo, if you are fine with the recoil. The most consistent option to 2HKO Gholdengo, however it will hurt
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both of which can push you into a Shadow Ball 2HKO, if my calculations are not incorrect.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 135-160 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
(using the 246 damage roll)
-Flame Charge
Ultra mega heat spicy spice, you use this to outspeed Scarf Gholdengo. This is dumb, do not use it.
0 Atk Talonflame Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 96-114 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 96-114 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
It could be funny, though.
The basic order of operations is
-Scout Gholdengo set bycoming in and clicking Roost
-If Scarf, play safe and go to your Ghost resist,
-If Timid, you can 1v1, try to Defog on the switch out
-If it Tera Ghosts, run
-If else, you are also probably fine
It isn't perfect, the main thing being that Scarf Trick can cripple Talonflame massively, but that's why I don't see this as a "good" Pokemon, I think it just has a niche.
anywho, I think that being able to more reliably get off hazards against Gholdengo gives Talonflame a bigger niche than C Rank, especially when Fire/Flying is a really coveted type for walling Fairy/Ground at the same time right now. Is Talonflame a good Pokemon? Not really, but I think it is slightly underrated. What has changed for the Pokemon is the influx of Enamorus giving it more opportunities, in my opinion, which means a lot.
C -> C+
C -> C+ also way higherI don't really know exactly where, but I feel that this Pokemon is a bit underrated, and not just because of Stall, but Balance. Part of this is because everyone currently has Talonflame as a Physically Defensive spread, and I am going to suggest that that is not the only viable set, let alone the best one.
Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fire / Dark / Water (usually you won't Tera to be frank)
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature / Careful Nature
- Your STAB (I will go into detail later) / Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn / Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Roost
The main issue with this spread is it cannot come in on Kingambit most of the time, but this spread is not meant to do that. It's meant to check the Pokemon it doesn't need Defensive investment to check, Special Attacking Fairy-Types, pivot and Defog on most Gholdengo sets.
Let's go in order:
(pivot/1v1/burn proc)4 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 96-114 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
watch out for Booster Max Atk though
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 169-200 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(pivot/1v1)252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 121-143 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 162-191 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(more like iron variance amirite, it can check some well and not others, I'd be here forever for every set but here is SD since it is common right now)252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 141-166 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 130-153 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
(pivot)252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 83-98 (23 - 27.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
(pivot/burn proc on setup sets, not band)0 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 90-106 (25 - 29.4%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
80 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 69-81 (19.1 - 22.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
+2 80 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 138-162 (38.3 - 45%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
(pivot/burn proc, knock off switch might not be worth, up to your discretion and team matchup)252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 78-92 (21.6 - 25.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 66-78 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- 89.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 126-149 (35 - 41.3%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
(it actually can decently wall all conventional garchomp sets, funnily, don't come in on life orb modest chomp though)0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 108-127 (30 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 222-263 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 110-133 (30.5 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(pivot)252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 120-141 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
32 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 100-118 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 97-114 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(pivot, only if booster set)132 SpA Iron Moth Psychic vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 97-115 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 64-76 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- 59.1% chance to 4HKO
(can fish one time safely, do not rely at all) (duh)A lot of these should be self-explanatory. Using a SpDef spread, most of these sets on most of these Pokemon simply cannot easily touch Talonflame without good chip. However, Moltres is right there, and does all of this better, 100%. Moltres has much better stats, Talonflame is abouta take 30% from every neutral hit in the game.
What Talonflame has that Moltres doesn't, and I'd argue gives it a higher niche than C, is Defog. and without further ado, here is how this spread can scout and ultimately beat Gholdengo at the hazard game.
To start, for reference, the base 252 Spa Gholdengo Shadow Ball does a considerable chunk.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Talonflame: 123-145 (34.1 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Which isn't nice, not at all. But, Talonflame does have reliably recovery, and with HDB it can come in, use attack/Pivot/Roost back to full. This spread makes it exactly one Speed higher than Timid No Scarf Gholdengo.
Scarf is more of a problem, due to the ability to click again. This is where you can run Tera Dark if you want, and attempt to beat it back, but generally, against most teams you want to keep your original typing. I went with SpAtk STAB on my sets but here is some calcs and pro's/con's for the main 4 I expect could have a niche.
-Flamethrower
No thrills. 2HKOs uninvested Gholdengo easily. Full accuracy. Struggles against invested, though most I've seen as of late are offensively invested.
0 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 164-194 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-Fire Blast
Slight thrills. Lower accuracy, but much more consistent against max HP Gholdengo. Much lower HP which could suck if you need to chase out Gholdengo repeatedly.
0 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 164-194 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Talonflame Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 164-194 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
-Flare Blitz
Physical move, recoil, pretty high power. With Careful, will do considerably more to Gholdengo, if you are fine with the recoil. The most consistent option to 2HKO Gholdengo, however it will hurt
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-270 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both of which can push you into a Shadow Ball 2HKO, if my calculations are not incorrect.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Talonflame: 135-160 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
(using the 246 damage roll)
-Flame Charge
Ultra mega heat spicy spice, you use this to outspeed Scarf Gholdengo. This is dumb, do not use it.
0 Atk Talonflame Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 96-114 (30.4 - 36.1%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 96-114 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
It could be funny, though.
The basic order of operations is
-Scout Gholdengo set bycoming in and clicking Roost
-If Scarf, play safe and go to your Ghost resist,
-If Timid, you can 1v1, try to Defog on the switch out
-If it Tera Ghosts, run
-If else, you are also probably fine
It isn't perfect, the main thing being that Scarf Trick can cripple Talonflame massively, but that's why I don't see this as a "good" Pokemon, I think it just has a niche.
anywho, I think that being able to more reliably get off hazards against Gholdengo gives Talonflame a bigger niche than C Rank, especially when Fire/Flying is a really coveted type for walling Fairy/Ground at the same time right now. Is Talonflame a good Pokemon? Not really, but I think it is slightly underrated. What has changed for the Pokemon is the influx of Enamorus giving it more opportunities, in my opinion, which means a lot.
C -> C+
- Status