seriously, if i lost turn 1 to a teapot i would take that shit to the grave. you couldn't jedi mind trick that info out of me. i haven't seen someone burn themselves that bad since regular ursaluna was ou
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
Also because it's a pseudo with 140 in attack (the highest one of the pseudo category) and was already borderline before DLC1, and besides that it had to decide if running DD to boosts its speed but then missing some KOs requiring +2, or SD missing the speed boost, DLC1 as you said gave to it Scale Shot, which even if it lowered its defense, it boosted its speed and still had a respectable bulk with 110 in HP, then A-Tails support and Tera Ground with EQ for perfect coverage and you created one of the strongest war machines
lmao at you people trying to point and laugh because I am the only person active in this thread with the balls to admit to losing a game. Post elo btw
we all lose games, dude. most of us just don't let the opponent set up on turn 1, openly admit it on a public forum, and call for a ban of the thing we lost to
It was not turn one, it was halfway through, (well right before the end more like) and I have played many games with stored power in play and have enjoyed none of them. Gliscor was at 50 the rest of the team was at or near full and opp was 2 mons down. I popped my Tera already on a psyshock hatterene. I also successfully hazed the teapot once then it simply used shell smash one more time and one-shot my haze user
notable exclusion in this post btw
Perhaps don’t overreact to a couple pages of forum propaganda and participate in the suspect and tiering process; survey scores have improved with each ban and suspect, so either it’s working or the people complaining are too busy doing that to participate, which is on them
so you either didn't cover it in builder or didn't position right, either of which is actually more of a skill issue than if you'd just led wrong against it
Why are people wanting to ban stored power? It is in NO WAY Bannable
Dumb and annoying, yes, but not banworthy
None of the mons who get it are busted because of it, and if they are busted, its likely a combination of things that make them busted, such as having a built in boost at the end of each turn or having good defensive typing.
Dumb and annoying, yes, but not banworthy
None of the mons who get it are busted because of it, and if they are busted, its likely a combination of things that make them busted, such as having a built in boost at the end of each turn or having good defensive typing.
Stored power is a funny move, but the amount of counterplay available is so widespread and common
i swear every time i look at this thread it just cycles between gliscor vs gholdengo, tera, stored power and booster energy lmao. i wanna try and set the conversation in a different, hopefully less argumentative direction, what pokemon not ranked in ou currently are people finding success with in ou right now? just a mon that you're having fun experimenting with and having some level of success with?
i don't play very often and i'm still pretty low ladder because time is a rare resource nowadays, but i've been having fun with crawdaunt on a veil team, since its pretty frail normally but with dragon dance or swords dance behind veil it can live long enough to get a boost or two and deal some serious damage with its adaptability boosted stab moves, its also pretty fun to use in rain because adaptability boosted, tera water, rain boosted liquidation goes brrrrr. what mons are y'all using that aren't the conventional ou picks?
i don't play very often and i'm still pretty low ladder because time is a rare resource nowadays, but i've been having fun with crawdaunt on a veil team, since its pretty frail normally but with dragon dance or swords dance behind veil it can live long enough to get a boost or two and deal some serious damage with its adaptability boosted stab moves, its also pretty fun to use in rain because adaptability boosted, tera water, rain boosted liquidation goes brrrrr. what mons are y'all using that aren't the conventional ou picks?
You know I'd really like to someday, but as it stands I lack the ability to get reqs. If I was able to get reqs I wouldn't even be talking about anything :3
Amoonguss + gastrodon. Amoonguss is honestly pretty great, as it is a great check to ogerpon-wellspring and alright against double dance manaphy before it starts going, especially with tera dark, as it can spore manaphy to allow a teammate to kill manaphy/force it out. Gastrodon is quite great against manaphy as well and with tera fire + storm drain, can stone wall ogerpon-wellspring with rocky helmet chip + recover.
i'd like to clear a point: surveys are not a global vision of The playerbase as it is not Worldwide-accessible (sTOP using GDOCS for EVERYTHING).
i'd add Stored power is not broken at All, because If it were, every pokemon with The move would spam it. No gallade has been seen with SP, And No it's not a "yes but it's a spec move" Cause bascu-F used Last respect as much as bascu-M.
I’d like to clear a point: we are going out of our way to employ a data-driven and transparent approach that takes many hours of work when it is not mandated and wasn’t employed for generations prior, so perhaps instead of nitpicking, you take it as a good starting point.
We already publicly stated that we are likely moving to forum based surveys in the future to eliminate the margin for error, too, so like what do you want from me? Or do you just want to be difficult for the sake of being difficult?
If both Gliscor and Gholdengo are banned, not only one but both, hazard stack is probably not going to be much of a playstyle anymore. (Unless someone has a reason why it somehow would be? Hamurott perhaps?) Maybe that is what some people want, or maybe it is just an unintended consequence, but I remember being told by multiple people that nerfing hazard stack into oblivion wasn't what anyone was trying to do. So I guess I would just ask what is the goal here? Is it to ban Gliscor and then move onto maybe banning Ghold? Because this seems to be what is happening, for better or worse.
If I had to pick one of the two to ban, I'd probably pick Gliscor just because there are other ground type glue pokemon in the tier like Tusk and Lando-T. There isn't really anything close to Ghold.
Not trying to pick a fight or even tell you off myself. I'm just generally wondering why people say there are no double standards on here.
If I had to pick one of the two to ban, I'd probably pick Gliscor just because there are other ground type glue pokemon in the tier like Tusk and Lando-T. There isn't really anything close to Ghold.
So it's ok if you tell other people how to play and act superior? The mods told me off for less than you've done today. And you were personally told off by a few different people. This particular post is even a one liner.
Not trying to pick a fight or even tell you off myself. I'm just generally wondering why people say there are no double standards on here.
did i say i was superior or even particularly skilled? no. but you bet your buttons i know how to play around stored power, so yes, it is in fact ok for me to share that advice. exert offensive pressure on your opponent to prevent them from safely setting up. use taunt or encore. paralyze them and sack something to bring in a breaker or revenge killer. put them to sleep. phaze them. actual-haze them. run a fat dark-type like ting-lu that can phaze out most stored power users even at +1, especially if you go for tera poison to dunk on the extremely telegraphed fairy or fighting move they throw out against all dark-types. try to preserve your tera if you see a stored power user at team preview. use focus sash on something and be very aggressive with your hazard control. all sorts of stuff works. [disclaimer: counterplay may not work against manaphy because that shit be broken y'all]
did they? from what i remember, you made a series of very uninformed posts comparing gliscor to lando-t, then the entire forum lined up one by one to tell you why you were wrong. morkal made charts, for crying out loud. and when finch stepped in to protect you from getting your ass kicked any more, you went off on him for "elitism" and complained about being silenced for not having a "pc populist opinion". in comparison, all i did was say that stored power isn't broken or uncompetitive, counterplay to it is common, and losing to it is more of a skill issue/builder issue/dandori issue than a stored power issue. i'd wager that most people would agree that stored power isn't a problem
which people are "personally telling me off"? ian? he'll argue with anything i try to say. i wasn't even being condescending this time (trust me, if i wanted to be condescending you would know) and he accused me of it anyway. not sure if it's a personal vendetta or he's just picking on me to farm likes
ok well now you're just minimodding. if moderation wants to do something about me, let them. don't try to call out my posts to get them deleted
do you really think i, of all people, am part of some sort of privileged in-group that's immune from moderation? c'mon, i probably have more deleted posts than anyone here (although i also probably have more posts in this thread than anyone else in general, so that statistic might not mean much—i'm responsible for more than 10% of the posts here). i just happen to have barely enough self-restraint to not do anything worthy of infraction most of the time, and i guess i contribute enough to valuable discussion to be worth keeping around (which must be a really low bar).
Last edited:
*Sidesteps whats happening up there*
I am a Garganacl and Skeledirge believer cuz lately Iron Valiant and Iron Moth have been caving my skull in. Still good Pokemon imo but I can see why they fell off. But that won't stop me from using them in low ladder as my low tier warriors.
i'll always be a garg and dirge supporter, partly because they're both part of my in-game team, partly because i love their designs, but mostly because i love the way they play
Not say. Act. I was accused of acting superior and I never said I was. So were you by me just now, I guess. You don't have to literally say you are.
Advice? While I don't personally believe there is anything wrong with stored power, the way you made fun of him for losing was certainly a unique way to share "advice."
I was accused of many other things along the way, including being insulting and acting superior.
As for my actual points in that conversation, which was left unfinished, I'll just leave it alone so as not to derail the thread.
I know! They looked great. I still wish I could have discussed those charts with them. Maybe another time.
A few things need to be clarified here. The elitism and populist opinion quip I made was a general statement at the end of my comment, which was not aimed directly at Finch. I was admittedly too worked up at that point, so I can understand why that might have been taken incorrectly. But that's not what I meant. You yourself have basically dumped on anyone and everyone trying to defend Gliscor since I've seen you the last few days. It's the popular opinion of the forum right now. What if the reverse was to happen?
Furthermore, what Finch did cannot be called defending me. Finch decided to end the conversation as it was getting out of hand, which in of itself is both his right as a mod and very arguably the right call. However, he didn't defend me when doing so. He literally insulted me. I had a private discussion with him afterwards over it that I'll keep private. And I'm not trying to start a fight or dig up old things. But the fact that you called it defending me is a real twisting of what actually happened. That's not defense.
And for the record, I think Finch is generally pretty cool as a mod. And he's also in a no win situation dealing with all this gen 9 nonsense. But I don't always agree... In general, I think Smogon has a tendency to be fairly narrow minded at times.
Looking at it again, Ian was admittedly a lot of it. But, bigasschungusboi called you out specifically. MattC and ButWhyThough_2 made more general comments on the state of the forum. Make of that what you will.
No. As of right now, I don't believe you get special treatment. That's not what I ever meant by double standard. It seems to depend heavily on the content whether or not people are allowed to get away with the extra curricular.
so the people who "called me out" are:
- someone who hates my guts
- one of the few people on the forum more toxic than i am
- two people who didn't actually call me out at all
that's… the exact opposite of what a double standard is. a double standard would be if i did the exact same thing as you and didn't get told off while you did. what you're describing is just how moderation works, everywhere
Last edited:
No, you did most of what I got criticized for if not more so. I even outlined what specifically. The biggest difference was you had a popular opinion to hide behind. The double standard is about if you are blowing the way of the wind or against it. That is indeed a double standard and I don't believe you are too dense to still not see what I've been saying. But maybe I'm wrong and you do just get special treatment.
Anyways, I don't want to turn the thread into this when I was just making a point. I made it. I'm moving on.
---
What do people think about Red Card? To me, it seems pretty good to disrupt the opponent's momentum. I have seen some on Hat, but I stopped seeing it on them as much lately. Maybe because of Knock Off.
I have tried some Mimikyu sets with it on some mostly mid teams. It kinda works, but it's also like playing 5 on 6 most of the time because Mimikyu isn't really viable. Ironically, one partial success I had was playing that on a hazard stack teams as a second spin blocker with Gholdengo. I'm only mentioning it because it was funny.
Anyways, what are some actually good pokemon that might be good with Red Card? I thought maybe Milotic or Glimmora might be interesting, but I haven't tested it out. I've only seen Milotic like to run Boots so far.
I interrupt your casual one liner back and forths for an in depth analysis of a peculiar element of SV OU.
Yo what's up, I think a lot of people are very dissatisfied with the current meta, and there's so many different problematic elements floating around that make it especially difficult pinpoint exactly what the issue is.
Wiith Gliscor, Gholdengo and even more running around and possibly being put under the ban lens, I think it's important to talk about the state of the current metagame, and in particular one move especially that I think is the root cause of many of our problems, Spikes.
It's no secret the hazards metagame has shifted greatly from gen 7 to gen 8, and arguably even more from gen 8 to gen 9. The increased distribution of Spikes is a primary component of this, as demonstrated below:
Gen 8 Spikers:
, 
, 
Gen 9 Spikers:
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
(technically)
In gen 8, Spikes weren't as popular as they were on, the selection of pokemon that had access to them were sparce, you were essentially limited to running Mew on HO, Ferrothorn on BO/Balance and Skarmory on Stall/Semistall. However now, you pretty much have the freedom of running whatever pokemon you want, and there's a decent chance that mon has spikes access.
Before I talk about removal and it's reduced distribution as well, I think it's a decent question to ask why spikes? What makes spikes much better than every other type of hazard? Well when we compare hazards, I don't think I need to explain as much why Tspikes and Sticky Webs aren't very comparable, one is a lot easier to remove, by virtue of just having a grounded poison type, while webs are stuck on being on an HO archetype, on a subpar setter. Stealth Rocks however, is also quite commonly used, and has many similarities to spikes. I think it's difficult to draw the line at this, because ever since gen 2, hazards have been a very important tool in forcing progress, and a lot of the game focused on the control of such hazards, wether it be setting them up for your own and spinning your opponent's away, or removing them altogether with defog.
Now, in general, spikes simply hits for more damage 90% of the time, especially when we have multiple layers, but is this provable? Like obviously we have some "gut" feeling that spikes simply do more damage during a game, I was curious so I decided to tally up all damage percentage of all Pokemon used in OU from the S to C ranks on the VR:
Now the thing here is, this kind of graph isn't super reflective of much, because teams aren't running 6 random pokemon from this list, they obviously build in mind so they have resistances to rocks and what not. Now a flaw with this list is that it doesn't account for Heavy-Duty-Boots, even though a ton of pokemon run it an exceeding amount of the time. To correct this, I ran a new graph, changing the hazards weaknesses of pokemon that run Boots over 50% of the time, these ended up being the new results:
Now this brings a comparison that feels a lot more true, we see that on average, spikes now deal a bit more damage than rocks when we have two layers up, and that when we have 3 layers they deal over 1.5x as much as rocks! So while setting up a single layer of spikes tends to not be as worth as setting rocks up, using it twice or more nets more damage on average.
Again, it's hard to directly take this information as fact, because there's obviously more intricacies that go into teambuilding, but we start seeing why Spikes can be seen as more oppressive. Being able to be stacked is an inherent advantage over rocks, because you have the ability to use it again to stack even more damage on top of usual, while risking wasting more turns in the eventuality your opponent is able to remove those hazards.
Now, I'd argue, that The opportunity cost of setting multiple layers of Spikes this generation, is offset by the heavily limited distribution of hazard removal this generation, including the total lack of reliable hazard removal.
So here's once more a comparison between last gen's removal options, and this generation's removal options, all based on their official smogon sets, and wether or not they include removal. I also include what I call "reliable hazard removal", the way I define it is any pokemon with removal, with access to reliable recovery, wether it be through 50% recovery moves or Rgenerator access.
Gen 8 Removal:
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, , 
, 
, 
Gen 8 Reliable Removal (Recovery):, , , ,
This is also ignoring that there's a few other pokemon that are also able to run defog, but it's just not their optimal set, there's a ton of other ones that are just outclassed as removal options,
, 
and 
occasionally run defog on very niche sets.
Gen 9 Removal:, 
, 
, 
, 
, , , 
,
Gen 9 Reliable Removal (Recovery):
Gen 9 Conditional Removal:
So first of all, there's a dramatic decrease of Removal in general, no duh. But the main thing we also see is that there now exists only one Reliable Removal Option, Corviknight. Now obviously, we see the metagame adapt in essentially the only way it can, either you run Great Tusk, or you run Heavy-Duty Boots, because all the other options are niche, or you're corviknight and get blocked by Gholdengo, which is also very common.
Now I don't think we'd be having as many problems as we're having if there was an increased distribution of removal options, because the rise in the distribution of spikes is in no way proportional to the increase (or lack thereof) of removal options.
Now I think an interesting point here to make is about Gholdengo. An interesting thing is that it's actually been banned in NatDex, a metagame where there is increased removal options, which sounds somewhat paradoxical, because I think Gholdengo is a fine Pokemon in this current metagame. Blocking defog as a move isn't necessarely a "broken" aspect, it creates interesting dynamics around having to use it as a removal option. However it doesn't help that the only Defogger gets stone walled by Ghold, anyway:
I don't believe Gholdengo is responsible for the oppressiveness of hazard stack, and attribute it more to the increased distribution of Spikes as well as the decreased distribution of Removal.
Now obviously, acting on banning Spikes would be a monumental tiering decision, one which I don't particularly think we can act upon before DLC2 comes around. There's also obviously the chance that there is an increased distribution of removal, which alleviates a lot of the current issues around hazards.
However, I'd like this post to highlight the fact that in this current metagame, I think the solution that would be the healthiest as well as the one with the least collateral damage would be banning Spikes. (Also maybe Ceaseless Edge, idk how that'd work out :P)
TLDR:
Spikes are busted, ty for reading
Yo what's up, I think a lot of people are very dissatisfied with the current meta, and there's so many different problematic elements floating around that make it especially difficult pinpoint exactly what the issue is.
Wiith Gliscor, Gholdengo and even more running around and possibly being put under the ban lens, I think it's important to talk about the state of the current metagame, and in particular one move especially that I think is the root cause of many of our problems, Spikes.
It's no secret the hazards metagame has shifted greatly from gen 7 to gen 8, and arguably even more from gen 8 to gen 9. The increased distribution of Spikes is a primary component of this, as demonstrated below:
Gen 8 Spikers:
, , Gen 9 Spikers:
, , , , , , , , , , , (technically)In gen 8, Spikes weren't as popular as they were on, the selection of pokemon that had access to them were sparce, you were essentially limited to running Mew on HO, Ferrothorn on BO/Balance and Skarmory on Stall/Semistall. However now, you pretty much have the freedom of running whatever pokemon you want, and there's a decent chance that mon has spikes access.
Before I talk about removal and it's reduced distribution as well, I think it's a decent question to ask why spikes? What makes spikes much better than every other type of hazard? Well when we compare hazards, I don't think I need to explain as much why Tspikes and Sticky Webs aren't very comparable, one is a lot easier to remove, by virtue of just having a grounded poison type, while webs are stuck on being on an HO archetype, on a subpar setter. Stealth Rocks however, is also quite commonly used, and has many similarities to spikes. I think it's difficult to draw the line at this, because ever since gen 2, hazards have been a very important tool in forcing progress, and a lot of the game focused on the control of such hazards, wether it be setting them up for your own and spinning your opponent's away, or removing them altogether with defog.
Now, in general, spikes simply hits for more damage 90% of the time, especially when we have multiple layers, but is this provable? Like obviously we have some "gut" feeling that spikes simply do more damage during a game, I was curious so I decided to tally up all damage percentage of all Pokemon used in OU from the S to C ranks on the VR:
| Stealth Rocks | Spikes (1) | Spikes (2) | Spikes (3) | Rocks + Spikes (1) | Rocks + Spikes (2) | Rocks + Spikes (3) | |||
| Average Damage Rounded: | 0.14 | 0.1 | 0.13 | 0.19 | 0.24 | 0.27 | 0.34 | ||
| Average Damage: | 0.144921875 | 0.0984375 | 0.13127625 | 0.196875 | 0.243359375 | 0.276198125 | 0.341796875 | ||
| Median Damage: | 0.125 | 0.125 | 0.1667 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.2917 | 0.375 |
Now the thing here is, this kind of graph isn't super reflective of much, because teams aren't running 6 random pokemon from this list, they obviously build in mind so they have resistances to rocks and what not. Now a flaw with this list is that it doesn't account for Heavy-Duty-Boots, even though a ton of pokemon run it an exceeding amount of the time. To correct this, I ran a new graph, changing the hazards weaknesses of pokemon that run Boots over 50% of the time, these ended up being the new results:
| Stealth Rocks | Spikes (1) | Spikes (2) | Spikes (3) | Rocks + Spikes (1) | Rocks + Spikes (2) | Rocks + Spikes (3) | |||
| Average Damage Rounded: | 0.11 | 0.08 | 0.11 | 0.16 | 0.19 | 0.22 | 0.27 | ||
| Average Damage: | 0.105859375 | 0.0828125 | 0.11043875 | 0.165625 | 0.188671875 | 0.216298125 | 0.271484375 | ||
| Median Damage: | 0.125 | 0.125 | 0.1667 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.3125 |
Now this brings a comparison that feels a lot more true, we see that on average, spikes now deal a bit more damage than rocks when we have two layers up, and that when we have 3 layers they deal over 1.5x as much as rocks! So while setting up a single layer of spikes tends to not be as worth as setting rocks up, using it twice or more nets more damage on average.
Again, it's hard to directly take this information as fact, because there's obviously more intricacies that go into teambuilding, but we start seeing why Spikes can be seen as more oppressive. Being able to be stacked is an inherent advantage over rocks, because you have the ability to use it again to stack even more damage on top of usual, while risking wasting more turns in the eventuality your opponent is able to remove those hazards.
Now, I'd argue, that The opportunity cost of setting multiple layers of Spikes this generation, is offset by the heavily limited distribution of hazard removal this generation, including the total lack of reliable hazard removal.
So here's once more a comparison between last gen's removal options, and this generation's removal options, all based on their official smogon sets, and wether or not they include removal. I also include what I call "reliable hazard removal", the way I define it is any pokemon with removal, with access to reliable recovery, wether it be through 50% recovery moves or Rgenerator access.
Gen 8 Removal:
, , , , , , , , , Gen 8 Reliable Removal (Recovery):
, , , , This is also ignoring that there's a few other pokemon that are also able to run defog, but it's just not their optimal set, there's a ton of other ones that are just outclassed as removal options,
, and occasionally run defog on very niche sets.Gen 9 Removal:
, , , , , , , ,Gen 9 Reliable Removal (Recovery):
Gen 9 Conditional Removal:
So first of all, there's a dramatic decrease of Removal in general, no duh. But the main thing we also see is that there now exists only one Reliable Removal Option, Corviknight. Now obviously, we see the metagame adapt in essentially the only way it can, either you run Great Tusk, or you run Heavy-Duty Boots, because all the other options are niche, or you're corviknight and get blocked by Gholdengo, which is also very common.
Now I don't think we'd be having as many problems as we're having if there was an increased distribution of removal options, because the rise in the distribution of spikes is in no way proportional to the increase (or lack thereof) of removal options.
Now I think an interesting point here to make is about Gholdengo. An interesting thing is that it's actually been banned in NatDex, a metagame where there is increased removal options, which sounds somewhat paradoxical, because I think Gholdengo is a fine Pokemon in this current metagame. Blocking defog as a move isn't necessarely a "broken" aspect, it creates interesting dynamics around having to use it as a removal option. However it doesn't help that the only Defogger gets stone walled by Ghold, anyway:
I don't believe Gholdengo is responsible for the oppressiveness of hazard stack, and attribute it more to the increased distribution of Spikes as well as the decreased distribution of Removal.
Now obviously, acting on banning Spikes would be a monumental tiering decision, one which I don't particularly think we can act upon before DLC2 comes around. There's also obviously the chance that there is an increased distribution of removal, which alleviates a lot of the current issues around hazards.
However, I'd like this post to highlight the fact that in this current metagame, I think the solution that would be the healthiest as well as the one with the least collateral damage would be banning Spikes. (Also maybe Ceaseless Edge, idk how that'd work out :P)
TLDR:
Spikes are busted, ty for reading
ahem.
red card shows a lot of promise in this hazard hellscape and i'm genuinely shocked that no one has mentioned it until now. the biggest issue with red card (besides knock off) is that it's kind of imperfect for sweep-stopping because the mon has to survive to force the opponent out. pokemon with sturdy can't be relied upon because of how common hazards are, and also because all of them are either unviable, would rather run another ability, or, in the case of rockpon, can't actually hold items. so, what we need is a mon that can survive hits easily, or has other qualities that it can use to abuse red card's effect. let's look at some of our options:
- is a nice option for this, especially given that it already has whirlwind so you can phaze twice in the same turn and get extra hazard damage. however, this really cuts into its longevity because of the loss of lefties healing. if you want to go this route, i can see it working, but you need wish support for it
doesn't strictly need things like boots or lefties thanks to the three billion different forms of healing it naturally gets, so it's one of the more flexible mons to run an item like this on. the big benefit of this one is that you can click spore while forcing a random thing to switch in, so your opponent can't choose what to use as a sleep absorber
can all get some mileage out of red card thanks to unaware. instead of contending with a set-up opposing mon directly, you can simply yeet them back into their pokeball without having to worry about getting one-shot. not suuuper big on giving it to because of the rocks weakness, but if you're diligent with your hazard control it might work- doesn't really like giving up sash, but if you play things right, you can basically insta-poison something
can't survive too many hits and isn't really that great in the current meta, but it does get prankster and recycle, so i'm sure you can make some low-ladder people lose their fucking minds with this
ok this one isn't in the game yet but hear me out: sturdy + red card + metal burst. get yourself knocked down to 1 hp, then unleash an attack with no immunities that does… *runs calcs* …484 damage. which will ohko anything with fully-invested base 140 hp or lower. with 3 layers of spikes up, it ohkos everything but chansey and blissey. and your opponent has no choice what to sacrifice to this attack. this probably won't be any good but it's really fucking cool
you can just put any fucking item on this, who even cares
While I agree with many points, I just wanted to note that I find it funny how your marked "reliable removal" is one of the least reliable due to Gholdengo's ubiquity and ability to totally negate almost any Corv sets, making Corv actually one of the least reliable options in many games.I interrupt your casual one liner back and forths for an in depth analysis of a peculiar element of SV OU.
Yo what's up, I think a lot of people are very dissatisfied with the current meta, and there's so many different problematic elements floating around that make it especially difficult pinpoint exactly what the issue is.
Wiith Gliscor, Gholdengo and even more running around and possibly being put under the ban lens, I think it's important to talk about the state of the current metagame, and in particular one move especially that I think is the root cause of many of our problems, Spikes.
It's no secret the hazards metagame has shifted greatly from gen 7 to gen 8, and arguably even more from gen 8 to gen 9. The increased distribution of Spikes is a primary component of this, as demonstrated below:
Gen 8 Spikers:
Gen 9 Spikers:
In gen 8, Spikes weren't as popular as they were on, the selection of pokemon that had access to them were sparce, you were essentially limited to running Mew on HO, Ferrothorn on BO/Balance and Skarmory on Stall/Semistall. However now, you pretty much have the freedom of running whatever pokemon you want, and there's a decent chance that mon has spikes access.
Before I talk about removal and it's reduced distribution as well, I think it's a decent question to ask why spikes? What makes spikes much better than every other type of hazard? Well when we compare hazards, I don't think I need to explain as much why Tspikes and Sticky Webs aren't very comparable, one is a lot easier to remove, by virtue of just having a grounded poison type, while webs are stuck on being on an HO archetype, on a subpar setter. Stealth Rocks however, is also quite commonly used, and has many similarities to spikes. I think it's difficult to draw the line at this, because ever since gen 2, hazards have been a very important tool in forcing progress, and a lot of the game focused on the control of such hazards, wether it be setting them up for your own and spinning your opponent's away, or removing them altogether with defog.
Now, in general, spikes simply hits for more damage 90% of the time, especially when we have multiple layers, but is this provable? Like obviously we have some "gut" feeling that spikes simply do more damage during a game, I was curious so I decided to tally up all damage percentage of all Pokemon used in OU from the S to C ranks on the VR:
Stealth Rocks Spikes (1) Spikes (2) Spikes (3) Rocks + Spikes (1) Rocks + Spikes (2) Rocks + Spikes (3) Average Damage Rounded: 0.14 0.1 0.13 0.19 0.24 0.27 0.34 Average Damage: 0.144921875 0.0984375 0.13127625 0.196875 0.243359375 0.276198125 0.341796875 Median Damage: 0.125 0.125 0.1667 0.25 0.25 0.2917 0.375
Now the thing here is, this kind of graph isn't super reflective of much, because teams aren't running 6 random pokemon from this list, they obviously build in mind so they have resistances to rocks and what not. Now a flaw with this list is that it doesn't account for Heavy-Duty-Boots, even though a ton of pokemon run it an exceeding amount of the time. To correct this, I ran a new graph, changing the hazards weaknesses of pokemon that run Boots over 50% of the time, these ended up being the new results:
Stealth Rocks Spikes (1) Spikes (2) Spikes (3) Rocks + Spikes (1) Rocks + Spikes (2) Rocks + Spikes (3) Average Damage Rounded: 0.11 0.08 0.11 0.16 0.19 0.22 0.27 Average Damage: 0.105859375 0.0828125 0.11043875 0.165625 0.188671875 0.216298125 0.271484375 Median Damage: 0.125 0.125 0.1667 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.3125
Lots of text
TLDR:
Spikes are busted, ty for reading
Also I disagre with the conclussion, not all spikes users are broken and the meta is just a reflect of the power creep and poor balance decitions by GF.
Banning Gliscor and Gholdengo would easily, solve the hazard problem.
Also next DLC might fix or break some more stuff.
i think so too, but i'm also unsure of whether hamurott would still be busted in a meta with neither of those two. the spikes would be harder to keep up, sure, but let's be honest: hamurott is the cheapest hazard setter in the whole game and that includes the one that should be banned before it. i think it would probably also need to go before the hazard problem could be considered totally solved
- Status