SSB Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion

dhelmise

free palestine
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OP stolen from Kalalokki and HiZo


Cool art by ausma

What is Super Staff Bros?

Super Staff Bros is a seasonal ladder format featuring random teams made up of Pokémon created by the staff members of Pokémon Showdown. But these aren't your standard everyday Pokémon; these Pokémon have custom abilities, moves, and even items that do not exist in standard formats! From dealing massive amounts of damage to the opponent's team on death to even permanently scrambling a Pokemon's moveset, these custom moves, abilities, and items have a wide variety of crazy functions that are sure to keep you on your toes. In addition to their custom attributes, these staffmons are named after the PS staff member they represent and post witty messages on their staff me in battle, and there is no limit to how many Mega Evolutions a side may use. Other than these changes, it's just a normal Pokémon battle; the first trainer to KO their opponent's team wins! How do I learn more about this? There's a super handy article that shows the entire roster available, as well their sets, moves, and everything that is custom made for this metagame! You can also learn about specific staff members by doing /ssb [Staff Member's name] in the Pokemon Showdown server or via the article.

[insert mon here] is broken and should be nerfed!!!

Something that QC and I discussed that we will do is mid-release balance patches. If there is an overwhelming, unanimous cry that certain Pokemon are too good or suck a lot we will evaluate those Pokemon and adjust them to even the playing field a bit better.

Hope you'll have fun playing, as we put a lot of heart and soul into this! :]
 

ausma

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I just wanted to say before I start to participate on the ladder proper that it’s been a massive honor to be apart of this project and get to contribute as much as I have. I think this turned out phenomenally and I hope you all enjoy it as much as we have!
 

ausma

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I’ve been hearing some reports that Cascade activates like Berserk; it’s only meant to activate once! sorry all if my set is currently mildly frustrating
 

Irpachuza

You didn't get this far by giving up, did you?
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Hi! Bug, or more like, unintended behavior that I don't recall from playtesting: Someone rolled a Medicham after Mime's sig move, and it had Psych Surge, so it's likely that it got all of Isaiah's mons elements. If I recall correctly, Mime's sig shouldn't transform targets into species used on SSBU, right?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2117789454 turn 21

Told you before, but thanks all Programmers and QC for the inmense work!
 

sharpclaw

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wow posting about my own mon biased much????

Two things:
1. Rough-forme should be male, not female
2. Treacherous Traversal doesn't clear hazards or terrain (which was the intended effect, but IIRC it was never coded in and I still have a positive WR, so, rip), but the description for it in both /dt and the guide says that it does.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2117804979
 
Found a bug with Breadstycks (Dachsbun). When using the signature move, the secondary effects fail often. It creates the substitute, but doesn't pass the it. The wish and baton pass parts of the move seem to just not be working at all. Additionally, if you use it while awake and below 25% hp, the move KOs you.
I didn't get a replay of the self-KO bug in action, but this battle showed the wish and BP parts of the move not working: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2117813651
 

Celever

i am town
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Aye, got a niche bug I think:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2117842573

- Meteordash used Plagiarise on dhelmise, getting Biotic Orb
- First Biotic Orb worked fine -- it was a damaging Biotic Orb because both mons were above 50% HP
- Second Biotic Orb was a healing orb. Meteordash was still above 50% HP, but dhelmise was below it
- It seems like a copied / mimicked Biotic Orb still uses dhelmise's health to work out which function it should have, not the user's. This also happened after dhelmise switched out, though, so it could be related to that.

Turn 13 for the faulty Biotic Orb
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2118250939

On turn 22, when Peary uses its Z-Power, it automatically gets put in the last Pokemon slot so you see 2 Klinklang icons in the party. But in turn 31, when Toxicroak is sent out, the Klinklang icon is replaced with a Toxicroak icon. I don't know if Klinklang taking up another party icon slot is intended or not so I'm posting it here.
Yea this one is just a client thing we can't really fix
 
new ssb dropped!! we will be laddering for #1!!!
took a brief glance at all of the mons and they’re all pretty cool! will be playing too many games of this (and making too many alts) just like the previous 2 iterations but definitely looks fairly exciting
no super strong opinions on balance atm since i haven’t played enough
only opinions are lol dawoblefet + felucia sets and mex (dialga) seems to be pretty good on paper at least
 

ausma

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Because I'm great at procrastinating studying, here is my first impressions tier list (post-launch, anyway) with tentative ordering:

1714981362892.png


Regarding Broken, S, and some of the A+s:

:chespin:
skies is, frankly, extremely stupid. On paper their kit shouldn't feel too egregious but in practice they can have an extremely deadly snowball with their ability and keep healthy with their signature and ability. They can win pretty consistently (it has the highest win percentage atp) since their signature + Body Press blanks most of the format, or at least be a serious blockade without specific tools since they have raw bulk and absurd passive sustain no matter what you do. Absolutely in need of a nerf and probably the only one on here that I think deserves decisive action.

:audino-mega:
Ransei is also stupid but mostly because they have raw numbers. Ultra Mystik is extremely hard to remove since Normal/Fairy is a tricky type to hit super effectively in a random format, and for your troubles Ransei becomes asinine to remove and deals asinine damage even on resisted Pokemon, meaning that there's really nothing you can do to prevent them from forcing an advantageous trade in the Ransei user's favor. They're #2 in winrate as insult to injury.

:sprigatito::jumpluff:
Nothing personal to the staff members who made these sets, but these are immensely toxic to the format and are plain unfun to play against while being a massive chore to remove. For Fame, they can easily pressure the Grass-types immune to their signature (which is literally free Leech Seed) with Serene Grace Air Slash + dual Status to create consistent value even without SubSeed shenanigans, but become a fucking nightmare with them (which is often). For Alex you absolutely need a Grass-type, which is admittedly a brutal counter, but in exchange you don't need to sink your Tera into them as much to stick around, and the inherent strength of their kit will usually win games on their own. Both of these sets need to be toned down tremendously or reworked imo.

:melmetal:
Aelita's strength in this format feels mostly reactionary right now but at the same time, they're just insanely consistent offensively while bringing excellent tanking prowess to the table. Of the high tiers I feel like it's one that is more "honest" but it's extremely reliable at tanking and breaking very well in most cases, which warrants a high placement.

:tropius:
WarriorGallade is extremely fun to use and I think they are really intuitively designed in the context of a format like this, but I do think they are a smidge overtuned as they do possess highly destructive snowballing qualities that you can't really do a ton about. Removing one or two effects from the innate ability would make WarriorGallade's sub perfect I think, since it's really the accumulation of effects that makes them a bit of a struggle to take down.

:aggron:
The concept is really funny on paper but in practice this Pokemon is arguably more of a nightmare to play against than Alex/Fame since they force a lot of 50/50s while often being able to force damage/execute an excellent pivot for a teammate to some magnitude. All of the passive turns they generate also makes them tough to take down and make progress against it thanks to Leftovers and its Poison immunity. Nerfing the abilty so counterplay is more consistent could be a decent approach.

---

As a rule of thumb, I think the sweet spot of this format is high B, low-mid A, with some exceptions depending on the Pokemon. Most Pokemon that hover around there will balance consistent value with an intriguing and reasonably balanced quirk (namely sharp_claw's, which I've loved getting to use). Even being in high A/A+ doesn't really mean I think you're in need of a nerf, but it means that they're serious threats that could potentially get out of hand once things are more solved/stabilized.

If you possess some degree of survivability and winning power, you have a recipe for success in this format. On average, I've ranked many of the generic overtuned walls pretty highly because they're difficult to break by design and because the Taunt effect is very uncommon and sometimes even accounted for by these subs. You'll notice that the walls that also have the potential to win/snowball are among the best the format has to offer. Everything in broken/S and a good deal of A+ exhibit these qualities and I believe will stay at the top when all is said and done.

The goofy as fuck tier is basically for the oddballs; Pokemon that are extremely fucking goofy by design and are defined by their volatile gimmicks. I struggle to really gauge them, but they are definitively funny to me which is a success in and of itself.

---

If any of you have questions regarding these placements, let me know and I'll be happy to illuminate.
 
OP stolen from Kalalokki and HiZo


Cool art by ausma

What is Super Staff Bros?

Super Staff Bros is a seasonal ladder format featuring random teams made up of Pokémon created by the staff members of Pokémon Showdown. But these aren't your standard everyday Pokémon; these Pokémon have custom abilities, moves, and even items that do not exist in standard formats! From dealing massive amounts of damage to the opponent's team on death to even permanently scrambling a Pokemon's moveset, these custom moves, abilities, and items have a wide variety of crazy functions that are sure to keep you on your toes. In addition to their custom attributes, these staffmons are named after the PS staff member they represent and post witty messages on their staff me in battle, and there is no limit to how many Mega Evolutions a side may use. Other than these changes, it's just a normal Pokémon battle; the first trainer to KO their opponent's team wins! How do I learn more about this? There's a super handy article that shows the entire roster available, as well their sets, moves, and everything that is custom made for this metagame! You can also learn about specific staff members by doing /ssb [Staff Member's name] in the Pokemon Showdown server or via the article.

[insert mon here] is broken and should be nerfed!!!

Something that QC and I discussed that we will do is mid-release balance patches. If there is an overwhelming, unanimous cry that certain Pokemon are too good or suck a lot we will evaluate those Pokemon and adjust them to even the playing field a bit better.

Hope you'll have fun playing, as we put a lot of heart and soul into this! :]
its back
 
If any of you have questions regarding these placements, let me know and I'll be happy to illuminate.
I would feel like HiZo should be placed in the A+ tier. It outpseeds the majority of Pokemon in the tier, besides Arva, Autumn, Auzbat, Beowulf, Elly, Fame (tied), havi (tied), Hecate, Karthik, keys, kolohe ✮彡, Mathy (tied), MyPearl (tied), sharp_claw, TheJesucristoOsAma, UT, Vistar, and XpRienzo ☑☑.

However, it can easily outspeed those Pokemon by using its signature move and sacrificing a Pokemon to sweep teams with Last Respects.

The reason why HiZo is not S tier is because it is stopped by priority attackers and walls.

Counters:
DaWoblefet can stop any sweeper.
Haste Inky can stop HiZo by inverting its stats, but only if it has sacrificed a Pokemon.
Pokemonvortex has a Focus Sash.
xy01, R8, and EasyOnTheHills can tank any special attack and are immune to Last Respects.

Ney can essentially stop any offensive pokemon.
zoro can live multiple KOs from any Pokemon.

Priority attackers:
252+ Atk Scizor (aegii) Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui (HiZo): 217-256 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability (Grassy Emperor) Thwackey (Corthius) Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui (HiZo) in Grassy Terrain: 360-432 (143.4 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Azumarill (marillvibes ♫) Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui (HiZo): 234-277 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Kry and PYRO both get Sucker Punch, so they easily OHKO HiZo.
252+ Atk Huge Power Lucario (Valerian) Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui (HiZo): 193-228 (76.8 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster (Klmondo) Icicle Spear (4 hits) (The Better Water Shuriken) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 220-264 (87.6 - 105.1%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Greedent (za) Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 107-126 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Out of the 151 Pokemon in the tier, there are only 17 that have a chance at stopping HiZo once it sets up.
This seems to be A+ material to me.

Lastly, I do not understand why Vistar and EasyOnTheHills are both D tier. Vistar is the third-fastest Pokemon in the format and can easily Encore a slower Pokemon to set up. EasyOnTheHills can also do this if the opponent simply has no Fighting Pokemon.
 
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ausma

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Out of the 151 Pokemon in the tier, there are only 17 that have a chance at stopping HiZo once it sets up.
This seems to be A+ material to me.
I generally agree with this sentiment but because of their volatility I think a larger sample size of games would help me feel more confident in an A+ ranking. I think they’re an example of a Pokemon that will ravage the tier once the dumb stuff is solved and their best setup opportunities are more consistently established.

Lastly, I do not understand why Vistar and EasyOnTheHills are both D tier. Vistar is the third-fastest Pokemon in the format and can easily Encore a slower Pokemon to set up. EasyOnTheHills can also do this if the opponent simply has no Fighting Pokemon.
Vistar’s base form is very solid disruption but that’s about where it ends. The sweeper mode requires a turn and a move slot in exchange for a STABless and generally weak attacker which is highly committal due to Throat Spray’s expendable nature while having a completely useless Tera type. If your opponent has Speed boosting you wind up just falling flat most of the time; there are far better anti setup options in the format that also actually do something to make progress. I guess you could argue a case for low C but I still feel pretty confidently it's high D.

EasyOnTheHills consistently is too overwhelmed before they can actually snowball. Hills needs time to get going which they rarely can afford due to the high power nature of the tier and due to all of the anti-setup around. Hills needs two turns (one as a sitting duck, one where you can react to it without being punished) to execute the signature, by which point the passive recovery seldom makes a difference since you require even more turns to get going, and you're slow even after the fact. With all of this combined, you’ve likely sustained too much pressure to actually sweep or take more than a trade in most cases. If you choose not to use the signature, you're left with a middling power STAB and even more middling coverage. It can sweep sometimes but you kind of have to let it get out of control or have really garbage tools for it to actually be threatening tbh.
 

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