Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk IV

petition to codify some flavor

Solarbeam:
Description: The user spends time absorbing sunlight, before firing an incredible beam of energy at their opponent. The user charges at Priority 1, and fires at Priority -1. In sunny weather, the user both charges and fires at Priority 0 instead. In rainy, sandy, hail, or foggy weather, this move has 6 BAP instead of 12. If the Pokemon is entirely isolated from sunlight or powerful artificial lights, such as an unpowered structure with no windows, this attack fails.

if you haven't used solarbeam yet, and begin charging, you'd start storing energy. Then if you get disabled the opponent wouldn't know to disable the beam. only the charging.
if you get disabled mid-charge like that, it would logically stop charging but still have charged half-way.
in terms of solar energy, you'd have the same as if the weather was bad (a partially charged solarbeam)

therefore.... logically solarbeam should have 6bap if it's partially charged. Saying that you can't fire a half-assed shot is obviously false because solarbeam already has 6bap shots codified for situations in which you can't get the full amount of solar energy.

codification: If disable(solarbeam) is used against a solarbeam user the first time they use solarbeam, solarbeam completes but only has 6 BAP.

Edit @ toon: logically this could make sense for everything except shell trap. and maybe razor wind. everything else would have this apply to it perfectly fine
 
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It's recently come to my attention that two Pokemon now possess the utterly redundant Ability combination of Keen Eye and No Guard. Could we add an extra effect to one of the Abilitits to fix this problem?
 

JJayyFeather

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Slightly disreagrding the above because we've made it an expectation to address these redundancies.

That being said, this topic is pointless because both Pokemon that have these interactions have signature items that add a boon to it. Mega Pidgeot has Pidgeotite and Lycanroc-Midnight has Lunar Ray.
 

ZhengTann

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Okay, going back to one month ago.....

Reworking Normal STAB: Deserves its own thread, even if momentum has dies by now and it turns out to amount for very little. I'll open up a thread and see what happens, maybe even pitch in a few ideas myself. Moving to Discussion.
Buffing compensation for Approvers: Not enough traction, given Fort liked apricity's post and then posted right underneath giving ambiguous support before Toon flat-out said "no". Nothing to be done for now.
Solar Beam codification change that might affect other Charge moves: I like it personally, but Toon and Fort are again the only ones in dialogue, to not enough traction. Nothing to be done for now.
Keen Eye and No Guard interaction proposal: I agree with Tex and Jay that this is largely unnecessary. Nothing to be done for now.
Feint, Sluggish, and Protective/Evasive interaction: I like it, and it seems a fellow Council member agrees. I'll write up a draft, go through Toon just to make sure it's what he specifically asked for, and skip the Discussion. Moving to Voting.

Note that I have not touched anything before November 30th. If you have any issues you think are important, please raise them up again.
 
/me posts in an attempt to bump the flavor codification

petition to codify some flavor

Solarbeam:
Description: The user spends time absorbing sunlight, before firing an incredible beam of energy at their opponent. The user charges at Priority 1, and fires at Priority -1. In sunny weather, the user both charges and fires at Priority 0 instead. In rainy, sandy, hail, or foggy weather, this move has 6 BAP instead of 12. If the Pokemon is entirely isolated from sunlight or powerful artificial lights, such as an unpowered structure with no windows, this attack fails.

if you haven't used solarbeam yet, and begin charging, you'd start storing energy. Then if you get disabled the opponent wouldn't know to disable the beam. only the charging.
if you get disabled mid-charge like that, it would logically stop charging but still have charged half-way.
in terms of solar energy, you'd have the same as if the weather was bad (a partially charged solarbeam)

therefore.... logically solarbeam should have 6bap if it's partially charged. Saying that you can't fire a half-assed shot is obviously false because solarbeam already has 6bap shots codified for situations in which you can't get the full amount of solar energy.

codification: If disable(solarbeam) is used against a solarbeam user the first time they use solarbeam, solarbeam completes but only has 6 BAP.

Edit @ toon: logically this could make sense for everything except shell trap. and maybe razor wind. everything else would have this apply to it perfectly fine

lol but seriously I think we should do more flavor codifications
more combo techs would be amazing imo

for example, I'm sure tackle would love some love
maybe something similar to pound, getting a bonus for comboing with another WC-based move
 

Frosty

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[buff culture]

2/3 of the pokemon affected by Relic Crown got Rank 3 SpD (exception being tangrowth ;~;) due to the latest revamp and now Relic Crown gives a largely unnecessary SpD boost to primarily offensive mons.

Can it get changed to highest stat or Attack/Special Attack? Seems like a better choice.

Sure, Tangrowth is slightly screwed if highest stat is chosen, but as the sole proper user of it in all ASB I don't mind it :>
[/buff culture]
 

JJayyFeather

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re relic crown: Redirecting this suggestion to the Signature Items discussion thread, it'll get discussed when we reach the end of the pre-existing list :>

Crit has been resolved
Baton Pass I'll look at more before saying anything wrt to
 
Literally only because I think Ghost Curse is trash and this could be cool, how do people feel about buffing it to make Curse last even upon switching out?

Has anyone ever used Curse and had it actually feel worth it? idk maybe im off base but ive never seen it used effectively
 

JJayyFeather

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It's been used once in my time here that I know about. Me vs Matezoide in LCT (what i want to guess was) SFs, used to abuse a shitty Pain Split order I had.

That aside, I'm not a fan of that buff, feels incredibly unnecessary.
 

Birkal

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...her-vs-challenger-birkal.3620582/post-7642004

This sort of thing should not be ok. My third substitution has been argued as illegal in this situation. Jayy has a speech about why my substitution is illegal, but I hope the ASB council can see why this is a toxic thing for two reasons:
1) It is horribly pedantic to tear apart a substitution like that in order for a gym leader to win a match.​
2) If those are really ASB's substitution rules, I think we have messed up with how convoluted they are.​

I remember having a gym match versus zarator back in the day where I used the term Magic Guard instead of Magic Coat. zarator made two sets of orders in response: one that abused my mistake and one that accommodated for it. The Gym Committee deemed that it was semantics and allowed the round to be ruled with my orders stating Magic Coat. I was really appreciative of this, and zarator went on to win (destroy) the match anyways. It kept the meaningfulness of the battle intact.

I worry about the ramifications of having a dual Gym Leader and ASB leader who needs to be this pedantic in order to win matches and the effect that will have on the metagame. For me, it makes the fun level drop through the floor.
 

JJayyFeather

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2 versions of my response to this, the more annoyed one is in discord. Here's the more professional one.

For starters, this discussion, if it is going to be had, needs to be had without these attacks on me. Being pedantic/calculating/etc has always been a part of the game, and trying to make it seem like I can only win by abusing little things like this is both false and insulting. I understand that it must suck for you given that you're the one being abused at the moment, but I assure you that I'm 100% okay with my orders no matter which way it goes. I just know that the reason I ordered them puts me head and shoulders in a better spot than the non-abusive orders, which still abuse something anyways.

Now as for the actual discussion topic, I'll address each part of your two reasons as for why its "toxic" as you would put it:

1) It is horribly pedantic to tear apart a substitution like that in order for a gym leader to win a match.

So are you trying to tell me that if this happened in say, Round 1 of a tournament, it's suddenly perfectly fine? Like, because I'm a Gym Leader I should be forced not to order the way that I see will put me the furthest ahead? Call me crazy, but this complaint just feels like you are complaining because you wanted this badge, and this abuse is costing you yet another chance at it. I will admit that it is a very pedantic move on my part, but I don't see anything wrong with being pedantic because I think that sometimes being a pedant and abusing subs make for some of the greatest plays.

2) If those are really ASB's substitution rules, I think we have messed up with how convoluted they are.

This one I slightly agree with, but not because I think they are convoluted. The biggest issue I have with our sub rules is that we still do not actually have it documented anywhere official how chance clauses work. We've spent forever and a half arguing over how everything works, clarifying everything else, but this is not specifically written anywhere that isn't just a match that I have to cite to show that I'm not pulling the rules about this interaction out my ass, whether it be for this match in particular or any other match in ASB.

Regardless of how we're going to rule things here, this actually needs to finally make its way into an official writing since I think the original ruling was always just a WoG thing.

All that being said, here's the issue that's actually at hand, because Birkal didn't actually state any issue besides the fact that I'm abusing his sub for a victory:
--- As it currently stands, Chance Clauses are by default checked when the Pokemon is supposed to act that action.
--- Also as it were, Chance Clauses have the loosest definition of anything in ASB, which is something along the lines of anything in the trigger of a substitution that is not a logical operator or things that can be identified as a Move Clause.

The above basically says that if you were ordered to use Mach Punch, the chance clauses check at +1. Body Slam? 0. Protect? +4. But this isn't written anywhere specific.

The lack of definition of Chance Clauses leaves a lot of room for a lot of abuse cases, both known and unknown. Outside of things like this, we have things like using a sub that is the most bullshit chance clauses I've ever seen just to bypass a substitution entirely (link). As a whole, the term actually needs a definition and a governing set of rules that are written down in order to reduce the amount of bamboozles that can occur as a resulted of their undocumented rules.

For starters, I want to actually patch the abuse I linked, and I know Emma mentioned this back when it happened too, so I would like to add this rule to the list:
- A substitution made by the player ordering second is illegal if the result of that substitution would trigger the substitution of a Pokemon that has already acted that action.

As for this, I'm going to wait for more non-existent feedback from other users before giving any more of my cents on this matter or suggesting ways to improve this.
 

nightblitz42

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(EDIT: I still don't fully understand chance clauses.)

I do, however, agree with JJayyFeather's final proposed rule clarification. I think it would best be worked into the ASB Handbook's What is Sub? section, rule 8, which currently says:

If, ordering second, your substitution would cause the Trigger of an opponent's substitution which has already legally activated to no longer have it's unknown conditions met (Such as 'AND NOT Encore next action), then it is ignored.

This rule (for some reason) only works when going from true to false, and not the other way around.
 
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yes plz fix that silly chance sub oversight and we can deal with the rest of it after.

Can we clarify how Future Sight/Doom Desire/Egg Bomb(lol) work?

Gonna preface the rest of this post by saying that conceptually how we are deviating from ingame with these moves. I would prefer we keep them as a weird hybrid of damaging move/residual damage. But there’s some unclear details we should iron out that somehow haven’t ever been ironed out.

[stuff in square brackets is my opinions to my questions raised, regardless of how they have been ruled in the past, if there has ever been a ruling, or how it works ingame]

1) Future Sight (etc) damage is “residual,” but what should that mean? The design of that was to bypass Endure, but what about other interactions?
- Should it be affected by Magic Guard? [no]
- Should it be blocked by Protect/etc? [idc]
- How does it interact with Substitute? [imo should bypass Substitute]
- Should its damage be capped by Focus Band? [idc, probably?]
- Anything I’m missing?

2) The current description states that the attack uses the ranks/stats of the Pokemon at the time the move is called. This used to be how it worked in-game, but it was changed to use the ranks/stats of the defender when the move hits. How do we want it to work? [idc]
- Also, do screens affect these moves? Does it matter when the screen is up (ie, before or after the move is called)?
 

Frosty

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Future Sight is a product of:
a) whoever writing it not fully understanding the mechanics involved
b) Every gen changing how it worked but the NDA description not being updated accordingly.

I don't feel we should create some frankenstein of Future Sight picking whatever effects we deem better or worse wrt being residual or not.

Just follow ingame. Copy and paste whatever is on bulbapedia and go from there. The more it deviates, the weirder it gets. Its not like it plays some significant part in the metagame to warrant special treatment.
 

Frosty

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I dont mind changes for asb due to asb mechanics. For example, given that endure in asb works differently, it bypassing it seems plausible, even though personally i wouldnt go that route

What I am against is just making an entirely different move for the heck of it. Seems too arbitrary and it opens such a can of worms in potential...

Although focus energy is here to prove us that it has been done before I guesssss
 

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