Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Finchinator

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Tired of the council overhyping toxapex. Yes its top tier but the way the vr thread is updated is toxapex being the center of the meta which it certainly isn't. I'm not disagreeing with it being at S- but for pex to be the basis of every other mons viability seems erroneous. Like wtf look at venusaurs explanation? Elaborate
I'm totally willing to discuss alternative opinions, but I think you're undermining the impact Toxapex has on the viability of some other threats in the metagame. Mega Venusaur is a big one as you really cannot threaten Toxapex at all with it unless you run Knock Off, which is rare and you often lack room to, whereas Toxapex can Scald you, recover to full, etc. as you waste Synthesis and pretty much gain nothing, thus forcing you out more likely than not. Given that they are both defensive Poison types and Toxapex's rise in popularity has also came alongside a drop in that of Mega Venusaur, I'd argue there is a clear correlation. In general, the metagame is influenced pretty significantly by Toxapex's presence I feel seeing as it 1v1s and defensively checks so much without being deadweight -- it's a pretty unique case and while I hope I did not over-mention it, I was not trying to particularly emphasize upon it so much as give an accurate description of why we made the changes we did.

I'd prefer future posts of this nature that are not intended to argue for a Pokemon's rank to change be directed at me in private, if possible, by the way, but thank you for your points and I hope this helped.

e: OP is now up to date w/ the last vote, btw
 
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-> A
I'll have to disagree on this one as it is still as effective as it was when it rose back up to A+, not to mention that CB sets have started to run Iron Tail more and more, making Tapu Bulu less of a problem. Its DD Groundium Z set is also very effective in breaking through fat as Clefable usage is *not as high* as it was initially. Not much has changed for Zygarde at all and if anything the meta has shifted to its favor, this is why it should stay in A+.

-> B+
Tornadus-T should definitely rise to B+ as it is a very good and effective Defogger and many fat balances heavily appreciate its utility in Defog and strong utility options in U-turn and potentially Knock Off. Not to mention, it's also a pretty cool fit on some bulky offenses that like its ability to act as a fast Defogger that can come in on rocks relatively easy thanks to Regenerator. Z-Hurricane is nothing to laugh at either as there are very few Pokemon that can effectively switch into it, this isn't only due to Z-Hurricane but also due to, for example, Knock Off, which allows it to cripple most Flying-type resists like Celesteela and Heatran.

e: It's thicc too so that's definitely an upside too.

-> S-
I don't have a lot to say about this since sedertz covered it perfectly, just wanted to say that I do agree.

-> the shadow realm
Can we please just unrank this nibba. It is really bad. I've tried using it and I have written its analysis but it really isn't quite viable enough to be ranked. It fails to get setup opportunities due to its horrific defense stats and after use of Splintered Stormshards it is rather weak and doesn't break through many walls, even if this is what it's supposed to do. Accelerock may be a valuable attribute to some teams that are very weak to Volcarona and Mega Pinsir, it is not enough to warrant it being ranked.

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Yeah what was the point of Venuaur dropping? It's still really good and shoud definitely NOT be B+. How the hell is Toxapex a good stop to Mega Venusaur too? It can do NOTHING to mega venusaur, what is it going to do, scald? It can't even touch venusaur. I'm sorry if this sounds rude but it should not of dropped and since it did why?? The Venusaur drop reasoning made no sense at all.
Mega Venusaur can't do much to Toxapex if it doesn't have Knock Off to cripple it. Toxapex can't do much back to it except for a Scald burn, which can actually be really annoying as Mega Venusaur lacks Leftovers recovery.
 
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I'd like to mention that I really dont like the idea of S- and S rank pokemon being immune to getting demoted. It makes no sense to have one specific rank impossible to drop from. It being the highest rank shouldnt warrant special treatment and neither should being a new rank. Ever since I have been active on this site (mid XY) people thought they had S rank all figured out and it kept changing consistantly. Charizard X (ORAS), Keldeo (ORAS), Magearna (SM) are some examples I can name off the top of my head and the current S- pokemon Kartana and Heatran could instantaniously drop depending on the metagame trends!
 

Finchinator

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I'd like to mention that I really dont like the idea of S- and S rank pokemon being immune to getting demoted. It makes no sense to have one specific rank impossible to drop from. It being the highest rank shouldnt warrant special treatment and neither should being a new rank. Ever since I have been active on this site (mid XY) people thought they had S rank all figured out and it kept changing consistantly. Charizard X (ORAS), Keldeo (ORAS), Magearna (SM) are some examples I can name off the top of my head and the current S- pokemon Kartana and Heatran could instantaniously drop depending on the metagame trends!
They’re not immune to dropping. That wasn’t the point of my blacklist. The point was that I don’t want this thread flooded with people who don’t agree with S- or the placements currently as the VR Council can handle these pokemon ourselves. If there is a metagame shift, we will change accordingly, but that does not mean we need CharizardFan696 to say how his Giga Impact Kartana kills everything, so it should be S.

If I were to open discussion to this right now, the same thing that has happened time after time would happen again — posts would get deleted and the thread would probably get locked. This was a very calculated move and the Pokemon in question, in these ranks, will still be examined as per normal by the VR Council (perhaps even to a more thorough extent as they’re all very prominent presences in the metagame).

If you have any future questions or statements of this nature and not an actual nomination or support of something else, address me in private and not in the thread, please.
 
I first would say I agree pretty much entirely with the VR update and the S- ranks. I think there is more trash to get rid of in the C ranks (most of the C megas need to be delisted) but that will come in time.

Tapu Koko -> (S-) agree
It’s something you need to consciously prep for just as much as Kartana and Heatran. The sheer versatility, power and team support it brings to the table absolutely elevates it from the rest of A+ in my eyes. Many mons on the VR owe a chunk of their own viability to the support and terrain Koko brings. The craziest part is that it has stayed so good for so long, despite Dugtrio, despite AV Mag, AV Bulu, despite 50% Lando use, Koko evolves and adapts and I don’t think we’ve seen the end of innovating its sets. A well played Koko never fails to put in work and the ranks should better reflect it. Also, Kokos hardest check Alowak just fell to UU.
 
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Just going to make this quick nomination.
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Azelf to Unranked from C-.
IMO, this thing should have been unranked a long time ago. Suicide lead Landorus Therian and Lead Excadrill completely outclass Azelf. Landorus Therian has a huge amount of offensive presence, meaning it is hard to taunt or defog away its hazards. It can also reliably gets its rocks past Mega Sableye. Excadrill can rapid spin the enemies hazards and will always get past Mega Sableye by virtue of Mold Breaker. Azelf has nothing over these two. Azelf has virtually no offensive presence with its only attacking move being explosion. It also has a hard time getting its rocks past Mega Sableye, as Azelf must win a lot of 50 50s. There is just no reason to run Azelf over suicide lead Lando or Excadrill.
No opinion on the other noms.
Edit: Going to echo my previous nomination.
Terrakion to C+.
Terrakion is completely awful. It’s best set, scarf, is outclassed by Keldeo and Greninja, as well as kartana. Terrakion isn’t the terror to offense the way Keldeo and Kartana are, and Terrakion can’t provide the momentum or spikes that greninja does. SD Rockium Z is also extremly niche compared to Landorus therian or even Garchomp.
Terrakion absolutely hates the fact that defensive lando has insane usage at the moment, as Terrakion basically gives free momentum or entry hazards to it. In general, a lot of balanced teams spammed on the ladder have no trouble with Terrakion. Terrakions main draw was that it could ohko Charti Berry Volcarona. Charti Berry Volcarona is deader than disco rn. There is a reason why Terrakion has very little usage in tournaments as well as in the ladder. Terrakion should go to C+, as it is very outclassed with only some niche roles, as well as the meta being awful for it right now.
 
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Nomination
B -> C+ (or B- at the least)

I'm not sure why Garchomp is still in B. As a sweeper, Zygarde has pretty much put it out of business thanks to Thousand Arrows, and it's also greatly outclassed as a Stealth Rock user. Pretty much every other Pokemon in B (such as Gyarados, Excadrill, or Diancie-Mega) are more useful than Garchomp in the current meta. Even B- has mons such as Stakataka, Mamoswine (especially), or Victini who have more utility than Garchomp. There's just no real reason anymore why Garchomp should be two whole ranks above Pokemon like Mega Charizard Y and Hippowdon.
 
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Gary

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Jesus these ranks at the top are a poor representation of OU.

Landorus-Theiran S -> S+
Wake up people. This mon has 50% usage in over 50% of the ladder sample, which doubles the 2nd place mons below it respectively. While I do appreciate that S- now puts Lando in a section of its own so to speak, we're talking about a mon that isn't just a meta defining mon, but a meta within itself. HP Ice used to beat other Lando. Speed creeping in order to outspeed other Lando. Imprison to block other Lando from attacking. While I'm still on the edge as to whether this mon needs a suspect test, I do know a centralizing mon when I see it.
You realize this was the main reason S was separated right? Landorus-T is too defining to be compared to anything else so it got its own spot in S. The purpose of S- is for Pokemon that are an obvious step above the rest of A+ but none of which define the meta like Lando-T. There is no reason to create another rank above S when Lando-T is the sole S rank Pokemon. Anyone who reads the VR should deduce that Lando-T is the most dominating Pokemon in the metagame. An added + symbol is not going to change anything. There are currently only 3 Pokemon in the S ranks total so an S+ rank would create an entirely pointless second rank. It's essentially the same concept of S and S-. It would just make shit more complicated for the sake of visuals lol.
 

GMars

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Lycanroc Dusk C- -> Blacklisted
Yah. I'm for blacklisting this mon. Again, who the fuck nommed this and why are you so retarded? "This is Terrakion with rock priority" bitch please. This mon is barely stronger than its PU counterparts and should have no mention amongst OU viable mons while there are plenty of better Pokemon for this rank. The fact this was nominated must be some kind of real joke. Like "hey little retarded Timmy brought in a pet frog, I guess we'll be nice to him and let him keep it on his desk". This mon right here is the real definition of stupidity, and for whoever nominated this, and then KEPT IT, I really hope they keep feeding you that applesauce.
Let me make one thing abundantly clear to all future posters.

You don't need to preface your arguments with "who the fuck nommed this and why are you so retarded?" Ideally you can make your arguments about competitive Pokemon rankings without devolving into a slap-fight of slurs and idiocy.

I've infracted SolaceAcheron, and anyone else who thinks this is the thread for anything like that will also receive infractions.
 
Just going to make this quick nomination.
View attachment 98797
Azelf to Unranked from C-.
IMO, this thing should have been unranked a long time ago. Suicide lead Landorus Therian and Lead Excadrill completely outclass Azelf. Landorus Therian has a huge amount of offensive presence, meaning it is hard to taunt or defog away its hazards. It can also reliably gets its rocks past Mega Sableye. Excadrill can rapid spin the enemies hazards and will always get past Mega Sableye by virtue of Mold Breaker. Azelf has nothing over these two. Azelf has virtually no offensive presence with its only attacking move being explosion. It also has a hard time getting its rocks past Mega Sableye, as Azelf myt?ust win a lot of 50 50s. There is just no reason to run Azelf over suicide lead Lando or Excadrill.
No opinion on the other noms.
I don't think Azelf is particularly good, but it does have access to a very fast taunt as well as magic coat that gives it a unique niche among usable suicide leads in OU.
 
  • Tornadus-Therian to B+
    • Yeah, this thing's pretty good. With Lando-T everywhere and other Defog users being either quick to die or offensively impotent (or both, in the case of Gliscor), it's neat to have something that can annoy stallers with Knock Off, chip opponents and gain momentum with U-Turn and blast something with SS coming off a decent Special Attack stat while also providing a useful defensive niche. While it's not as splashable a fogger as Kartana, that ability is something to kill for on a support Pokemon. The popularity of Tapu Bulu, Chansey and Heatran gives this thing even more reason for being since Knock Off is incredibly useful for neutering them and others.
  • Zygarde to A
    • I disagree with this. Zygarde isn't the offensive teammate it once was, but I think it's still crazy viable and has adapted to a new role in the meta. With Sub/Protect + Toxic it effectively annoys all of its common counters (Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, and Tangrowth) leaving only Clefable as a surefire check. It can block Magma Storm Heatran and for that alone it's great. I don't see Iron Tail variants as much as Toxic, mostly because of how well that set counters everything, but it's still noteworthy that it can run a move that plows through 2/3 of its best counters (Bulu and Clefable). Zygarde's ability to mess up Heatran/Bulu cores is similar to when it was a great answer to Celepex - its just that times have changed. Thus, I think it deserves to stay in A+ for its continued ability to adapt to and counter new strategies that have emerged in the metagame.
  • Tapu Koko -> S-
    • Going to have to reluctantly agree with this one, if we have an S- Rank then I think Koko epitomizes it, as it checks a ton of popular threats and has the movepool to do a lot of offensive damage, without being as frail as other sweepers like Ash Greninja or Kartana. Recently I've noticed Calm Mind sets have proliferated as a scary answer to people who try to play around Specs with resistances, and it occasionally runs Defog to abuse the myriad free switches it gets. Sending in Magearna or Heatran on a predicted HP Ice/DG can give Koko a chance to boost to +2 with CM, at which point it can plow through a large portion of the metagame with its two STABs alone, letting it run a niche coverage move like HP Fire. It seems like every couple of months this thing gets a new and scary set- first it was Z-Wild Charge to break Chansey, then Specs, now we have Kokos with Roost, Defog, and Calm Mind running amok. On a Pokemon as fast and powerful as Tapu Koko, this kind of versatility spells S- Ranking, as it does with Kartana.
 
Firstly thanks for this update, not a single change I don't agree with here, it looks like a hell of a lot of work went in and the scale of this was well worth the wait.

For the nominations:
Tapu Koko A+ -> S- Agree
Tapu_Koko_Icon.png

Honestly I thought Koko should have been S before the new rank was made. Other than the obvious things that have been mentioned already that make Koko great, I'd just like to say I think the versatility this thing brings is widely underrated. At team preview, though Specs is certainly most common, you're not sure whether you're facing a physical or special attacker, Koko is the fastest mon that can run Scarf viably (imo, Greninja Ash is not viable with Scarf, its a waste) and it actually has a good range of team support options. It is a very fast defogger, while a niche pick due to its weakness to hazard setters, it's still another weapon in it's arsenal. Electric Terrain not allowing sleep is nice, but working so well with Hawlucha, as well as helping breakers like Mawile, Medicham and Kyurem break through Toxapex with boosted Electric attacks is awesome. Also Koko can OHKO Toxapex and Landorus itself with Specs, which makes it almost as splashable as those two mons themselves, seeing as you're almost guaranteed to see one of them every game, plus it murders SD Kartana which is another very common threat right now. For something this fast and strong its not-absolutley-abismal defense and typing is also something to look at (252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 217-256 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), not being OHKO'd by Kartana is just peachy. Volt Switch also hits like a truck and you can get awesome momentum with slow VoltTurner's like Landorus and Magearna (who gets boosted Volt Switch), letting these guys tank a hit, bring Koko in, have him deal massive damage and get out for free before taking a hit, or picking up the KO. I went on for longer than I thought but yeah, S- is great for this think, if not S.
Ok last edit, with a lot of teams making use of terrains nowadays it is useful to have your own terrain user to counter this, eg Psychic for boosting Psychic moves and preventing frail cleaners from being hit by priority, or Grassy making Kartana simply insane, giving Toxapex ungodly recovery and supporting things like Heatran, who are vulnerable to EQ and don't have reliable recovery.

Azelf C- -> UR Disagree
Azelf_Icon.png

While yes this thing certainly isn't good, it is a *viable* option for a suicide lead, in that it is fast, can set Rocks, has access to Magic Coat and Taunt and Skill Swap. If you wanted Landorus or Excadrill on your team but as a Pivot or Attacker or you needed a lead with Taunt; Azelf is still worth considering. Also Explosion off a actually decent attack stat is nice and it guarantees the suicide to bring something else in without taking a hit and without letting the opponent set up.

I really want to know how a Gliscor can be an A- rank in OU but still only be in the UU tier.
This is a post for the simple questions thread. It's because the tiers are separated by how much pokemon are used, not by how good they are (unless something is banned for being too strong in its usage category, where it will go to something like BL or Ubers depending on what usage tier it is from).


Edit - Post I answered was moved, spelling, added Azelf.
 
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Tapu Fini B- -> C+

Unfortunately, Tapu Fini just finds itself outclassed at most of the roles it wants to pull off. As a Defoger, it's almost irrelevant, as there are just better options - Rotom-Wash has less weaknesses and is harder for offensive teams to switch into (thanks to Will-O-Wisp), Gliscor is better at breaking stall thanks to its recovery and also has the status immunity, and that's not counting the competition it had before USUM. It still kept relevancy through a Whirlpool trapping stallbreaker set, but now that is outclassed by PerishTrap Azumarril, thanks to Sap Sipper allowing it to trap more targets. Plus, the recent surge in Kartana has been very troublesome for Fini, especially since it can't even try to Scald burn as long as Misty Terrain is up. AV Bulu has also been rising recently, and Koko is still as common as ever. I think that a drop to C+, alongside Pokémon like Amoongus and Thundurus who offer some role compression, but struggle to find their own niche, sounds reasonable.
 
I’m very intrigued by the introduction of the S- tier, and I applaud the decision. I agree that it was needed. As for nominations:

Tornadus-T -> B+ Agreed

I'm not the best player around, but I have been using this mow's flyinium z set and agree its deserving of a rise. The ability to mash together a decent special attacker, utility attacker, and even a defogger gives Tornadus special relevance. Flyinium Z is no joke on this thing: it can blow past so to speak (don't mind the pun) pokemon such as meta defining Landorus and even the two viable forms of Clefable. It can also annoy the heck out of mons it can't kill with hurricane or flyinium z by spamming knock off to rid them of their item, crippling standard checks like Zapdos and Celesteela, or can steal momentum by using U-Turn, while also chipping the opponent for a bit of damage. I feel this pokemon can really fit on balanced and bulky offense teams, and so that's why it deserves to go to B+.
 


Greninja from A- to B+

I know it was just dropped, but I really think it's due for another. The main argument I've seen against a drop is its unpredictability, being able to bluff Ash-Greninja while running a variety of viable sets. However, it instantly reveals it's not Ash-Greninja after attacking, and the scarf set is the only one commonly used. The popularity of HO teams the suicide lead set fits on is declining, and most HO teams don't even run it anymore. The offensive sets aren't used anymore either, with most players electing to run the much more powerful Ash-Greninja instead. The scarf set is really the only viable set, however it still has a problem with being weak and the decline of sweepers it's designed to kill, such as DD Zygarde and Mega-Tyranitar.

Looking at the Pokémon in A- and B+, I'd say it fits in more with Blacephalon than anything in A-. Useable, yes, but not splashable and requires more team support. This is all coming with the massive opportunity cost of being unable to use Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja's popularity also hurts Greninja severely, as most teams are forced to carry answers for Ash-Greninja, most of which also happen to be counters to Greninja. In addition, the decline of HO really hurts, as it's really the only playstyle it's good against. Considering every offensive team carries Tapu Koko now, it really isn't as good against offence as it use to be either. From my experience using Greninja, I've found that most of the time I'd rather be using something else.
 

mushamu

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Tapu Fini B- -> C+

Unfortunately, Tapu Fini just finds itself outclassed at most of the roles it wants to pull off. As a Defoger, it's almost irrelevant, as there are just better options - Rotom-Wash has less weaknesses and is harder for offensive teams to switch into (thanks to Will-O-Wisp), Gliscor is better at breaking stall thanks to its recovery and also has the status immunity, and that's not counting the competition it had before USUM. It still kept relevancy through a Whirlpool trapping stallbreaker set, but now that is outclassed by PerishTrap Azumarril, thanks to Sap Sipper allowing it to trap more targets. Plus, the recent surge in Kartana has been very troublesome for Fini, especially since it can't even try to Scald burn as long as Misty Terrain is up. AV Bulu has also been rising recently, and Koko is still as common as ever. I think that a drop to C+, alongside Pokémon like Amoongus and Thundurus who offer some role compression, but struggle to find their own niche, sounds reasonable.
I'm going to have to pop up from lurking and disagree with your nomination for Tapu Fini to drop. I acknowledge that Tapu Fini does find itself outclassed as a Defogger, although it does have some traits that make it stand out from the likes of Gliscor and Rotom Wash, and that is Taunt and Nature's Madness. With Nature's Madness and Taunt, Tapu Fini is able to switch into hazard setters such as Chansey and Toxapex, break them with Taunt + Nature's madness, and threaten other hazard setters such as Lando-T and Heatran with Surf. Anything else that decides to switch in on Nature's Madness will find their HP cut in half, which really helps wear down the opposing team for your own breakers. Misty Terrain also helps your own breakers as they no longer have to fear for burns and poison, and makes things such as SD Mega Mawile easier to use. It's Fairy+Water typing allows it to serve as a formidable Ash Greninja check and that is something that Rotom Wash and Gliscor cannot do, as the former can't take Dark Pulses for shit and the latter just topples in front of Hydro Pump. I agree how Azumarill is better as a Perish Trapper but Azumarill cannot Defog or stallbreak like Fini can. Tapu Fini as a Defogger + Stallbreaker + Ash Greninja check in one teamslot and I feel that its role compression should let at least stay B-. Although it has fallen off at the beginning of SM, I feel that Tapu Fini has unique utility over over stallbreakers and Defoggers and putting it at C+ is underselling it in this metagame.
 
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Éric

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Tapu Koko A+ -> S- Disagree.

I really like using Koko, but whenever I use it, it does nothing. Landorus (and Zygarde) are everywhere, so you can’t just click Volt Switch if you don’t want to lose momentum. And if you decide to predict and click specs HP Ice, which doesn’t kill defensive Lamfo 100% of the time, and your opponent stays in, it will do a big damage, because Koko’s defenses aren’t the best. Also, the increase of AV Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, Gliscor and the omnipresent AV Magearna, two Pokémon that counter Koko, means Koko hasn’t the greatest match up vs most teams. And scarfers like Lando are way too common.
Otherwise, Koko hits like a truck. It KOes and 2HKOes a large amount of Pokémon. It provides so much support to stuff like Hawlucha, Kyurem Black, Medicham...
I think Tapu Koko should remain in its A Rank.


(Sorry for my English xd)
 
I'm going to have to pop up from lurking and disagree with your nomination for Tapu Fini to drop. I acknowledge that Tapu Fini does find itself outclassed as a Defogger, although it does have some traits that make it stand out from the likes of Gliscor and Rotom Wash, and that is Taunt and Nature's Madness. With Nature's Madness and Taunt, Tapu Fini is able to switch into hazard setters such as Chansey and Toxapex, break them with Taunt + Nature's madness, and threaten other hazard setters such as Lando-T and Heatran with Surf. Anything else that decides to switch in on Nature's Madness will find their HP cut in half, which really helps wear down the opposing team for your own breakers. Misty Terrain also helps your own breakers as they no longer have to fear for burns and poison, and makes things such as SD Mega Mawile easier to use. It's Fairy+Water typing allows it to serve as a formidable Ash Greninja check and that is something that Rotom Wash and Gliscor cannot do, as the former can't take Dark Pulses for shit and the latter just topples in front of Hydro Pump. I agree how Azumarill is better as a Perish Trapper but Azumarill cannot Defog or stallbreak like Fini can. Tapu Fini as a Defogger + Stallbreaker + Ash Greninja check in one teamslot and I feel that its role compression should let at least stay B-. Although it has fallen off at the beginning of SM, I feel that Tapu Fini has unique utility over over stallbreakers and Defoggers and putting it at C+ is underselling it in this metagame.
You have a good argument, that Tapu Fini fills at least a couple of niches. That being said, there are just pokemon that can do Fini’s job so much better. As a trapper, Heatran rose to S- for that reason, and yes Toxapex with regenerator is op. Finally, too many top tiers that threaten her, such as even Ash Ninja with Gunk Shot, although that is a niche option. Bottom line is Fini is probably deserving of a lowering.
 

B+ --> A-

I disagree with Blace ever dropping in the first place. It has terrifying wallbreaking capabilities that people seem to overlook just because it's frail. It has no good defensive counterplay, as it is able to easily break through 'checks' with appropriate coverage. Pex and Tran never were and never will be checks. Pex loses to Psyshock into Shadow Ball, and Tran never switched into Shadow Ball. Even if you don't prefer Psyshock, with spike support, it 2HKOs Pex after rocks and a spike. I've even seen people run Baneful Bunker just for this pokemon because it is such a threat to bulky teams. TTar has fallen in usage, and even then CB TTar has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by HPGrass after rocks and 100% dies after rocks and a spike. The only time I've had a Blace do little was when it was against a Sp. Def M-Tar and a Chansey. Even then it was still able to Trick and cripple Chansey. Scarf is a great RK'er with access to very powerful fire STAB in Overheat. It's also a good late-game sweeper because Shadow Ball has such good coverage especially with such a high Sp. Atk. Another very underrated option on either choiced set is Pain Split. Because this pokemon forces so many switches, it finds ample opportunities to heal with Pain Split. And because it has such low HP, it deals a lot of damage allowing teammates to set up etc. It's fairly splashable on teams, really only needing good hazard removal and its own hazards (Landot !) and it gives a lot to teams with such amazing wallbreaking capabilities. Z-Ghost is another niche option that 6-0s stall and is good vs balance, but stall is a pretty bad playstyle and it leaves you lacking in immediate power/speed.


A+ --> S-
Disagree

Don't get me wrong, this pokemon is an utter beast if played correctly, but with being so reliant on its electric attacks, a simple mispredict can cost you greatly. Wrongly HPIcing on the stay-in or vice versa costs you so much momentum or even costs you a pokemon. The rise in usage of defensive cores like AV Bulu/Ferro + a ground type don't do this thing any favors either. It's practically forced to VSwitch every time otherwise the opponent will be able to set up hazards/heavily chip a switch-in. And being able to capitalize so easily on mispredicts is the downfall of this pokemon. Other pokemon in S- don't really have this problem as they always have a way to get something out of switches. Pex can status or Knock Off, Tran can Magma or set up rocks, and Kart can Knock or Defog. It's a high-risk high-reward pokemon that can certainly be a pain, but it's just not S- level.


B --> B+
Agree

This pokemon has had a great influx in usage on BO and Balance builds, and for good reason. Its typing, Regen, and hazard removal all allow it to be a great pivot--switching into top threats like Lando-T and non-Smart Strike Kartana. Its phenomenal movepool makes it fairly unpredictable and hard to fully check. Common Sp. Def pokemon like Ferro, Pex, M-Tar, Celes, and Chansey can't properly check Torn-T because it has access to Knock to severely cripple all of them, especially Chansey, and access to moves like Heat Wave, Superpower. Z-Hurricane give this pokemon a nuke vs pokemon like the aforementioned Lando-T and Pex. This gives Torn-T many opportunities to provide utility for your team through Knock, Defog, and U-Turn. Because it's immune to Spikes has Regen and amazing speed, it makes for one of the best and reliable Defoggers that I've found to fit well on many teams.
 

B+ --> A-

I disagree with Blace ever dropping in the first place. It has terrifying wallbreaking capabilities that people seem to overlook just because it's frail. It has no good defensive counterplay, as it is able to easily break through 'checks' with appropriate coverage. Pex and Tran never were and never will be checks. Pex loses to Psyshock into Shadow Ball, and Tran never switched into Shadow Ball. Even if you don't prefer Psyshock, with spike support, it 2HKOs Pex after rocks and a spike. I've even seen people run Baneful Bunker just for this pokemon because it is such a threat to bulky teams. TTar has fallen in usage, and even then CB TTar has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by HPGrass after rocks and 100% dies after rocks and a spike. The only time I've had a Blace do little was when it was against a Sp. Def M-Tar and a Chansey. Even then it was still able to Trick and cripple Chansey. Scarf is a great RK'er with access to very powerful fire STAB in Overheat. It's also a good late-game sweeper because Shadow Ball has such good coverage especially with such a high Sp. Atk. Another very underrated option on either choiced set is Pain Split. Because this pokemon forces so many switches, it finds ample opportunities to heal with Pain Split. And because it has such low HP, it deals a lot of damage allowing teammates to set up etc. It's fairly splashable on teams, really only needing good hazard removal and its own hazards (Landot !) and it gives a lot to teams with such amazing wallbreaking capabilities. Z-Ghost is another niche option that 6-0s stall and is good vs balance, but stall is a pretty bad playstyle and it leaves you lacking in immediate power/speed.


A+ --> S-
Disagree

Don't get me wrong, this pokemon is an utter beast if played correctly, but with being so reliant on its electric attacks, a simple mispredict can cost you greatly. Wrongly HPIcing on the stay-in or vice versa costs you so much momentum or even costs you a pokemon. The rise in usage of defensive cores like AV Bulu/Ferro + a ground type don't do this thing any favors either. It's practically forced to VSwitch every time otherwise the opponent will be able to set up hazards/heavily chip a switch-in. And being able to capitalize so easily on mispredicts is the downfall of this pokemon. Other pokemon in S- don't really have this problem as they always have a way to get something out of switches. Pex can status or Knock Off, Tran can Magma or set up rocks, and Kart can Knock or Defog. It's a high-risk high-reward pokemon that can certainly be a pain, but it's just not S- level.


B --> B+
Agree

This pokemon has had a great influx in usage on BO and Balance builds, and for good reason. Its typing, Regen, and hazard removal all allow it to be a great pivot--switching into top threats like Lando-T and non-Smart Strike Kartana. Its phenomenal movepool makes it fairly unpredictable and hard to fully check. Common Sp. Def pokemon like Ferro, Pex, M-Tar, Celes, and Chansey can't properly check Torn-T because it has access to Knock to severely cripple all of them, especially Chansey, and access to moves like Heat Wave, Superpower. Z-Hurricane give this pokemon a nuke vs pokemon like the aforementioned Lando-T and Pex. This gives Torn-T many opportunities to provide utility for your team through Knock, Defog, and U-Turn. Because it's immune to Spikes has Regen and amazing speed, it makes for one of the best and reliable Defoggers that I've found to fit well on many teams.
Most Blacephalon are Specs or they don't carry Psyshock on the Calm Mind + Ghostium Z set. And besides, Toxapex can just switch out and get back some of it's health back because Specs Psyshock doesn't kill Sp.Def Toxapex.
 
You have a good argument, that Tapu Fini fills at least a couple of niches. That being said, there are just pokemon that can do Fini’s job so much better. As a trapper, Heatran rose to S- for that reason, and yes Toxapex with regenerator is op. Finally, too many top tiers that threaten her, such as even Ash Ninja with Gunk Shot, although that is a niche option. Bottom line is Fini is probably deserving of a lowering.
I think you missed the point of the post, he wasn't saying Fini is better than other deffogers or trappers, hell he used Azumarill as an example of a niche trapper saying its better than Fini rather than Heatran whose trapper set is one of tran most know and a contender for best set so I don't know why you decided to bring it up. The point of the post is yes Fini is outclassed however it brings things other deffogers can't, like bringing his field with the perks involving it, being a Ash-Greninja check , a stall-breaker and a deffoger in a single mon. Yes its outclassed at doing specific stuff, but the fact it can role-compress those stuff things in a single mon give it jump over the stuff at C+ and down below.
 


Greninja from A- to B+

I know it was just dropped, but I really think it's due for another. The main argument I've seen against a drop is its unpredictability, being able to bluff Ash-Greninja while running a variety of viable sets. However, it instantly reveals it's not Ash-Greninja after attacking, and the scarf set is the only one commonly used. The popularity of HO teams the suicide lead set fits on is declining, and most HO teams don't even run it anymore. The offensive sets aren't used anymore either, with most players electing to run the much more powerful Ash-Greninja instead. The scarf set is really the only viable set, however it still has a problem with being weak and the decline of sweepers it's designed to kill, such as DD Zygarde and Mega-Tyranitar.

Looking at the Pokémon in A- and B+, I'd say it fits in more with Blacephalon than anything in A-. Useable, yes, but not splashable and requires more team support. This is all coming with the massive opportunity cost of being unable to use Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja's popularity also hurts Greninja severely, as most teams are forced to carry answers for Ash-Greninja, most of which also happen to be counters to Greninja. In addition, the decline of HO really hurts, as it's really the only playstyle it's good against. Considering every offensive team carries Tapu Koko now, it really isn't as good against offence as it use to be either. From my experience using Greninja, I've found that most of the time I'd rather be using something else.
I disagree with another Greninja drop. I've been using its scarf set quite a bit recently and it is still extremely good, surprising Koko/Scarf lele (or even non scarf thinking it can tank a hydro) with gunk shot and having a very adaptable bunch of moves depending on what you want to kill, so is still quite splashable. Its also caught me off guard quite a few times, cleaning me when I expected to KO it thinking it was ash gren. I get that it's other sets are not particularly good rn, but I've seen a few spikes sets which still do well despite ash gren and Koko being around, with the type change helping a lot with getting up spikes, which gives it a niche over ash gren. I think it still deserves a place in A-, even though it is not the best mon there, I think it is still better than the stuff in B+.

Also agree with Koko to S-, it's kinda the face of offense being ridiculously splashable and the best offensive pivot in the tier.
 

Indigo Plateau

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Overall, I'm really pleased with the new update, but there are a couple things I personally think are missing. I'll start with the one I can see happening the most:

I think Tapu Koko belongs in S-
--> S-

This. Tapu Koko is one of the most threatening and defining Pokemon on offense due to Electric Terrain and its above average speed tier. The key to Koko is not only how hard its Specs set hits, but also the invaluable amount of support it brings to its team. As mentioned by others before me, a team without a Ground type is a walk in the park for Koko, as it gets to freely fire off boosted Thunderbolts. Grass-types such as Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth have been seeing increased usage, and although they can absorb hits, they hate coming in vs Volt Switch, as this gives the user a chance to bring in Pokemon that typically can apply pressure to Koko checks.

The terrain it provides helps a vast amount of Pokemon in the meta, such as Magearna, Hawlucha, and Kyu-B. Common switch-ins to Koko, such as Ferro, Lando-T, Tapu Bulu, Gliscor, Tangrowth, etc., can all be taken advantage of by common Pokemon paired with Koko like Medicham/Lop, Kyu-B, Hawlucha, and Heatran, making it that much harder to deal with. On top of being the best pivot on offense in the game, it also provides offense with an offensive check to two of the most threatening types against the archetype: Pinsir and Hawlucha. This is severely important for offense, which usually falls down after either of these get off an SD.

Regarding recent metagame trends, all of these help Koko out:
Rises
  • Hawlucha from A- to A
  • Zapdos from B+ to A-
  • Medicham (Mega) from B+ to A-
  • Tornadus-T from B- to B
Koko can take advantage of Zapdos, Hawlucha, and Torn-T due to its typing, and these Pokemon have seen more usage lately due to how splashable they are (in Torn-T's case, Z-Hurricane + Defog has brought it new life). Moreover, Medicham and Hawlucha are amazing partners for Koko, and they see good success when paired alongside it, forming a powerful core for opposing teams to face. Keep in mind that this is solely from the Specs set, which is by no means its only set (I've used Z-Wild Charge still and it's decent).

All in all, Koko's ability to 1) serve as an effective pivot with an above average speed tier, 2) summon terrain for itself and its teammates to abuse, 3) force a builder to run a Ground-type since Grass-types don't suffice due to its overwhelming offensive presence, and 4) provide valuable resists against some of the most threatening sweepers against offense definitely merits it S- rank in my book.

I would also personally like to see
--> A, but I've run out of time so I'll write about that some other time.
 
Tapu Fini B- -> C+

Unfortunately, Tapu Fini just finds itself outclassed at most of the roles it wants to pull off. As a Defoger, it's almost irrelevant, as there are just better options - Rotom-Wash has less weaknesses and is harder for offensive teams to switch into (thanks to Will-O-Wisp), Gliscor is better at breaking stall thanks to its recovery and also has the status immunity, and that's not counting the competition it had before USUM. It still kept relevancy through a Whirlpool trapping stallbreaker set, but now that is outclassed by PerishTrap Azumarril, thanks to Sap Sipper allowing it to trap more targets. Plus, the recent surge in Kartana has been very troublesome for Fini, especially since it can't even try to Scald burn as long as Misty Terrain is up. AV Bulu has also been rising recently, and Koko is still as common as ever. I think that a drop to C+, alongside Pokémon like Amoongus and Thundurus who offer some role compression, but struggle to find their own niche, sounds reasonable.

Waifu Tapu Fini B=> C+

I dissagree with this nom. Fini, like you said, isn't that great, however, I don't think its on the level of the C+ 'mons. First, like Ghost Cream said, Fini has a great ability that prevents sweepers from getting burned/paralyzed/poisoned for 5 turns, has access to taunt, which coupled with terrian, shuts down stall. Fini also has nature's madness, which makes 'mons easier to break for sweepers.




Tapu Koko A+=>S-

There isn't much that I can say that hasn't been said before, but this guy needs a raise. electric terrain helps itself (koko), and other powerfull breakers like Kuy-b & hawchula, it has great speed, and good power under electric terrain.

Now for a nom of my own

Volca
nion C+=>B-

This may be a little controversial due to Koko (which eats this thing for breakfast) being so popular , but I think volc is good enough to warant a raise, even if it's B- (which honestly isn't that high). Volc has a good offensive typing, coupled with one of if not the best special water attack in Steam eruption, being able to threatan pretty much every steel type, volcarona, tyranitar (swiching in), Pinsir, defensive Lando, and heaviliy denting loppuny, Hawchula, and Greninja ( 2HKOing them), with its STAB attacks. Volc also Has a decent typing, with a good ability in water absorb, which alows for it to check prominent threats, like both Grens, Keldeo, toxapex (without toxic), Heatran, unboosted Volcarona, celesteela, Clefable, Ferrothorn, and others. However, volc is walled by special walls like chansey, and a weakness to stealth rocks and low speed hutrs it, as well as weakneses to common ground & electric attacks.

TL;DR: Volcanion is a good special wallbreaker that can thretam many common 'mons, as well as having a decent defensive typing & ability that walls commom wals as well, although a weakness to rocks, comon ground and electric attacks, and low speed really hurt it.


(this is the volc set I'm using as for this nom, btw.)
Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
 
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I couldn't agree more with the Kartana and Tornadus rises, Kartana excels as a cleaner and a wallbreaker while also can offers utility to HO running defog and Tornadus brings to balance teams a good speed tier while also checks many things that threaten balance such as SD Kartana.
I can't say nothing new about those two, I glad that they are receiving the acknowledgement that they deserves in the current meta.

Also I would like to make this nomination

1516756604871.png
-->B-

I know that Araquanid is in the C rank because is mostly a niche mon but I think that it's not only the best SW setter in the meta it's also can work as a decent wallbreaker.
Shuckle and Araquanid are in the same rank but in my opinion Araquanid outclasses Shuckle in the current meta. Yes, Shuckle has SR, better bulk, Knock off, encore and it doesn't have to risk nothing in 50/50 situations with Magic coat but its passivity is something that can be really bad for your team in the current meta, many of the set up sweepers in the tier that can use Shuckle as set up fodder are the z move users that doesn't care much about knock off or encore, so outside of just using a slot in your team for SR and SW, Shuckle has more drawbacks as the SW setter like being dead weight against stall teams.
In the other hand, Araquanid offers offensive presence that the opponent has to take in count while also its typing, bulk and ability allows it to check many threats in the tier such Ash Gren, Volcarona, Heatran, non dragon move Zygarde, defensive Landorus, Mega Swampert, Keldeo, Charizard Y and Gliscor. Also only a few mons can use it as set up fodder like Dragonite while others take enough damage to be revenge killed by other mons in the team if they try to set up in front Araquanid.
Araquanid also helps against Trick Room teams, it's slower than some TR staples like Magearna, Crawdaunt and Marowak, helping a lot to its teammates in a such desfavorable matchup.
And the last thing that I think that make Araquanid worth of a higher rank is its ability to pass through the most walls or at least keeping them low for its teammates and doesn't allows wish pass in the mid game like Shuckle does.
In the first instance, it can seems like a joke, but metronome Araquanid is a really good wallbreaker, the things that can OHKO Araquanid can't switch in for free and neither can't be bring to the field with slow volt turn because Araquanid is even slower than min speed Magearna.
Usually the defoggers or water resist such Toxapex are the switch ins to Araquanid, once they are in, Araquanid can pressure them spamming Liquidation and once the opponent realizes that Araquanid has metronome, it is forced to sacrifice something if the wall doesn't has nothing to beat it before fall (like Toxapex without toxic or Mew with only ice beam) and the ones that can beat it such defensive Zapdos are forced to stay with low hp or don't defog, in any of the both cases, its teammates would appreciate it a lot.
Maybe I don't explained the reasons of why I think that Araquanid is better than c+ in the best way, so I'll put two replays where Araquanid was the MVP.

vs another SW team with dual screens support:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-692949659

Here Araquanid saved the game of a boosted Zygarde taking a hit and weakened it enough to be in range of my own priority move, avoided the set up of the light screen, set up the SW and saved the game again weakening a Mega Tyranitar enough to be revenge killed by Diance, and it could have been the same story with Victini, Diance also take a +5 stored power and revenge kill a +1 Victini with earth power after rocks and Liquidation.

vs stall:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-693160895

Here SW was useless but Araquanid wasn't, Araquanid weakened two mons for the Kartana sweep and forced my opponent to lose its mega to rocks just to break the metronome chain, if my opponent had not sacrifice Sableye and Araquanid would have not got para, Zapdos would have got KO by Liquidation after rocks.
These wasn't the best games that Araquanid have had but I didn't save the others game where Araquanid was even better but I think that these show how good is Araquanid like support and wallbreaker, maybe not the best but it's a solid mon in the current meta.
 
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