Ubers Arceus-Water

Fireburn

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I hope you like looking at Arceus-Water since it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
_____________________

[OVERVIEW]

* Arceus-Water's excellent bulk, key resistances to Fire-, Water-, and Ice-type attacks, and lack of weaknesses to Fairy- and Dragon-type attacks make it the premier support Arceus forme for balanced and defensive teams.
* It makes an excellent check to top metagame threats such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence.
* Arceus-Water gets access to the coveted Defog, giving it valuable defensive utility shared only by few other Pokemon in the metagame.
* Arceus-Water has a slight case of four-moveslot syndrome, which can make it somewhat difficult to perform all of its roles to maximum effectiveness.
* Arceus-Water's passivity makes it fairly vulnerable to status and trappers such as Mega Gengar.
* Pokemon that Arceus-Water otherwise checks can and will often run sets designed to beat it, such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Recover
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* The first two moveslots must be considered together depending on what Arceus-Water's role on a team needs to be.
* Judgment provides Arceus-Water with a STAB option to maximize its ability to check Arceus-Ground and Ho-Oh.
* Ice Beam is useful to OHKO Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, as well as to deal a small amount of chip damage to Primal Groudon. Using Judgment and Ice Beam together generally affords Arceus-Water the most flexibility if entry hazard removal is unnecessary or present elsewhere on its team.
* Defog provides valuable hazard removal, and Arceus-Water's bulk affords it the ability to use it multiple times during a game if needed. It can be used over either Judgment or Ice Beam if Arceus-Water's team needs hazard removal and can provide backup support against Ho-Oh and Arceus-Ground or Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, respectively.
* Toxic allows Arceus-Water to defeat Primal Groudon and pressure Ho-Oh and other defensive walls.
* Recover keeps Arceus-Water healthy throughout a match.

Set Details
========

* The Speed EVs enable Arceus-Water to outspeed Jolly Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh, allowing it to cripple these threats with Toxic before taking a hit.
* The remaining EVs go towards maximizing Arceus-Water's physical bulk, with a Bold nature to increase it further.
*Arceus-Water's Speed EVs can be adjusted depending on team needs if more bulk is desired. Only 16 Speed EVs are necessary to outspeed Adamant Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh while providing maximum physical bulk, while 168 EVs enable Arceus-Water to outspeed Jolly Rayquaza and Timid Kyurem-W.
*Arceus-Water can opt for a Timid nature for more Speed if necessary, though it should run at least 252 HP EVs and 100 Defense EVs, the minimum necessary to survive a +1 Double-Edge from Adamant Mega Salamence after Stealth Rock damage.

Usage Tips
========

* Arceus-Water makes a solid initial switch-in for threats such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence. Some caution should be exercised, as these Pokemon can all do considerable damage to Arceus-Water with the correct move.
* Should the need arise, Arceus-Water can be also used as a safe pivot switch against Primal Kyogre if it manages to switch in on Primal Groudon.
* Bear in mind that Arceus-Water cannot beat Swords Dance Primal Groudon by itself—the best option for Arceus-Water against such a set is to use Toxic and play around Primal Groudon's attacks with teammates until enough poison damage accumulates to KO it. Attempting to determine what set Primal Groudon might be from Team Preview can help determine if it is safe for Arceus-Water to take it on.
* Defog is best used on forced switches—the only entry hazard setter Arceus-Water wants to try and take on by itself is Primal Groudon.
* Although Mega Gengar takes a lot of damage from Judgment, it can easily trap and take out Arceus-Water if it manages to switch in relatively unscathed, so exercise caution against it.

Team Options
========

* Arceus-Water can fit onto many balanced and stall teams due to its utility and great synergy with other defensive Pokemon.
* Primal Groudon can check many threats to Arceus-Water, including Primal Kyogre, Xerneas, and most Steel-types.
* Ho-Oh loves Defog support and can take on Xerneas and Steel-types, while Arceus-Water can handle many physical attackers that threaten Ho-Oh in return such as Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, and Mega Salamence.
* Giratina-O provides a backup answer to Primal Groudon and can provide Defog support, allowing Arceus-Water to use two attacks.
* In a similar vein, Lugia and Celesteela both provide a backup answer to Mega Salamence, lessening the need for Arceus-Water to run Ice Beam. Lugia greatly appreciates having Defog support as well.
* Steel-types such as Klefki, Magearna, Ferrothorn, and Bronzong can absorb Toxic for Arceus-Water while helping against Xerneas. Klefki and Magearna also help against other threatening special attackers such as Yveltal.
* Xerneas offers clerical support with Aromatherapy, provides a check to Dark-types, and can threaten offensive teams that might be able to overpower Arceus-Water.
* Blissey checks most special attackers and can help keep Arceus-Water alive with Wish and Heal Bell. Clefable fills a similar role, but it is more specialized towards handling Xerneas and Dark-types.
* Mega Sableye can keep most Spikes users from setting up on Arceus-Water courtesy of Magic Bounce, as well as providing an answer for Extreme Killer Arceus should it attempt to set up on Arceus-Water.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Reflect provides additional support against physical attackers for Arceus-Water and its team.
* Grass Knot 3HKOes Primal Kyogre, allowing Arceus-Water to break Rest variants.
* Iron Defense can allow Arceus-Water to defeat Swords Dance Primal Groudon in conjunction with Toxic.
* Perish Song punishes Pokemon that attempt to set up on Arceus-Water by putting them on a timer, notably acting as a deterrent for Calm Mind + Refresh Arceus formes. However, Toxic is sufficient in most other cases.
* Waterium Z can be used with Surf to OHKO Mega Gengar after Stealth Rock damage, but the damage output is underwhelming, particularly being unable to OHKO Ho-Oh. Splash Plate Judgment is superior in almost all cases for decent, consistent damage.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Arceus-Water cannot hit Steel-types with Toxic and its attacks will often do little damage back if they have some means of recovery or resistance to Water-type moves. Dialga, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Klefki cripple Arceus-Water with Toxic while potentially taking advantage of it to set up entry hazards. Bronzong, Celesteela, and defensive Solgaleo can also outstall Arceus-Water if necessary with Toxic, especially if Arceus-Water lacks Judgment.

**Shadow Tag**: Mega Gengar can trap and remove Arceus-Water from the game relatively easily with status-boosted Hex or Destiny Bond, although it needs to be wary of Judgment. Wobbuffet can use Encore to turn Arceus-Water into easy setup fodder for a teammate.

**Toxic**: Toxic ruins Arceus-Water's walling ability, making it easy to outstall. Blissey and Clefable are among the most dangerous users, since they can shrug off status with Heal Bell, leaving Arceus-Water with no method to effectively damage them.

**Setup Sweepers**: Geomancy Xerneas can set up on Arceus-Water with little risk to itself and easily KO it, especially if Xerneas has Rest or Aromatherapy to remove Toxic. Nasty Plot Darkrai, Z-Heal Block Palkia, and most Swords Dance Arceus formes and Calm Mind + Refresh Arceus formes can also set up on Arceus-Water and overwhelm it or at least force it to switch out. If Arceus-Water is not using Judgment, Mega Lucario can set up Swords Dance with ease on a resisted Ice Beam and proceed to KO Arceus-Water with Close Combat, making it very dangerous. Swords Dance Primal Groudon can also overwhelm Arceus-Water with boosted attacks before succumbing to Toxic.

**Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre can switch in on Arceus-Water with ease and either KO it with Thunder or outstall it with Toxic or Scald burns in conjunction with Rest.

**Electric-types**: Tapu Koko and Zekrom can easily OHKO Arceus-Water with STAB Electric-type attacks, though they risk taking significant damage from Judgment and Ice Beam if they switch in directly, respectively.

**Shaymin-S**: Shaymin-S outspeeds Arceus-Water and OHKOes it with Seed Flare, though it cannot switch in on Ice Beam.
 
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Fireburn

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Main questions for QC:

Slashing on first two moveslots - keep ORAS slashing or make Defog a primary option?
How much Speed is necessary? I have enough for max Speed Jolly PDon/Ho-Oh but neither of those are common atm...
 

shrang

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Have you tried this tech:

Arceus-Water @ Waterium Z
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam

Fun P Donner lure, you easily 2HKO at +2 with EQ and they can't defeat you in return. Z-move Aqua Tail nukes shit while Ice Beam takes out Zygarde and Mega Mence. In some trouble vs Giratina-O and Ferrothorn but oh well. Not saying it should definitely get a set, but something to have a play around with imo.
 

Fireburn

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Have you tried this tech:

Arceus-Water @ Waterium Z
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam

Fun P Donner lure, you easily 2HKO at +2 with EQ and they can't defeat you in return. Z-move Aqua Tail nukes shit while Ice Beam takes out Zygarde and Mega Mence. In some trouble vs Giratina-O and Ferrothorn but oh well. Not saying it should definitely get a set, but something to have a play around with imo.
Swords Dance telegraphs Earthquake which is the opponent's cue to send in their Ferrothorn/Giratina-O/Arceus-Water/Giratina-O or whatever else they have to wall this, defeating the purpose of the set. Don't see it being viable at all over a better SD Arceus. :/
 

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
Jc do you think surf+waterium Z might have merit on support sets?

If you run ice beam along with it you can possibly bluff not carrying water STAB and lure a Ho-Oh for a KO. Additionally Hydro Vortex would do a lot of damage to Xerneas to get in priority range from the likes of Deoxys, Mluke, even Gira depending on how the Xerneas is invested. I think especially because Z-geomancy is just waffling around and support arcs are a good set up opportunity for that xern set, carrying Hydro Vortex to just knock off a huge amount of HP from it makes it all the more easy to handle for teams using Waterceus.
 

shrang

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Z moves on Supportceus has always been something I thought might be viable just in case you need that additional power (eg OHKOing Gengar) in a team where you might have a spare slot for a Z move.

EDIT:
0 SpA Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs 0/0 Mega Gengar: 81.21% - 96.10%

Tbf though in terms of Z-GeoXern, it's not really going to help that much unless you can take it out on that charge turn afterwards since they carry Rest and would just Rest it off anyway.
 
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I'd mention that running Ice Beam only is very dangerous against Mega Lucario (mention in C&C).

Waterium Z on this mon is ass. Z-Surf does 60% to Xern, and doesn't even OHKO Ho-Oh. It is nowhere close to being worth the downsides of having to use Surf which is already weaker than Judgment (WITHOUT a Splash Plate to boost it) which means that consistent and decent damage (a necessity for support Arceus) goes right out the window. Surf doesn't 2HKO Ho-Oh and tickles Steel-types unboosted. If you ever have to use anything other than Hydro Vortex which is already lacking then it just sucks. Waterium Z can be mentioned in Other Options if only to explain the downsides of its use, which I think that section can cover.

It seems the late ORAS revamp's slashing is still preferred from QC discussion so i'm fine with seeing that again with the new EV spread.

QC 1/3
 

Freeroamer

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Is it worth mentioning the competition also that Ice Beam+Defog has with Arc-Dragon? Softer Zygarde matchup vs stronger Mega Gengar and Pdon etc. matchup
 
"Bear in mind that Arceus-Water cannot beat Swords Dance Primal Groudon by itself - the best option for Arceus-Water against such a set is to use Toxic and play around Primal Groudon's attacks with teammates until enough poison damage accumulates to KO it. Attempting to determine what set Primal Groudon might be from team preview can help determine if it is safe for Arceus-Water to take it on."

I'd mention more strongly that Arc-Water loses to SD PDon variants or add a mention of SD PDon under C&C / setup sweepers, since the most you can do is get a Toxic off vs them.

Everything else looks good :]

QC 3/3
 

Lumari

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remove add / fix (comments); (AC=add comma; RC=remove comma; SC=semicolon)
GP 1/1
[OVERVIEW]

* Arceus-Water's excellent bulk, key resistances to Fire-, Water-, and Ice-type attacks, and lack of weaknesses to Fairy- and Dragon-type attacks make it the premiere premier support Arceus forme of choice for balanced and defensive teams.
* It makes an excellent check to top metagame threats such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence.
* Arceus-Water gets access to the coveted Defog, giving it valuable defensive utility shared only by few other Pokemon in the metagame.
* Arceus-Water has a slight case of four-moveslot syndrome, which can make it somewhat difficult to perform all of its roles to maximum effectiveness.
* Arceus-Water's passivity makes it fairly vulnerable to status and trappers such as Mega Gengar.
* Pokemon that Arceus-Water otherwise checks can and will often run sets designed to beat it, such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Recover
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* The first two moveslots must be considered together depending on what Arceus-Water's role on a team needs to be.
* Judgment provides Arceus-Water with a STAB option to maximize its ability to check Arceus-Ground and Ho-Oh.
* Ice Beam is useful to OHKO Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, as well as to deal a small amount of chip damage to Primal Groudon. Using Judgment and Ice Beam together generally affords Arceus-Water the most flexibility if entry hazard removal is unnecessary or present elsewhere on its team.
* Defog provides valuable hazard removal, and Arceus-Water's bulk afford affords it the ability to use it multiple times during a game if needed. It can be used over either Judgment or Ice Beam if Arceus-Water's team needs hazard removal and can provide backup support against Ho-Oh and Arceus-Ground or Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, respectively.
* Toxic allows Arceus-Water to defeat Primal Groudon and pressure Ho-Oh and other defensive walls.
* Recover keeps Arceus-Water healthy throughout a match.

Set Details
========

* The Speed EVs enable Arceus-Water to outspeed Jolly Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh, allowing it to cripple these threats with Toxic before taking a hit.
* The remaining EVs go towards maximizing Arceus-Water's physical bulk, with a Bold nature to increase it further.
*Arceus-Water's Speed EVs can be adjusted depending on team needs if more bulk is desired. Only 16 Speed EVs are necessary to outspeed Adamant Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh while providing maximum physical bulk, while 168 EVs enable Arceus-Water to outspeed Jolly Rayquaza and Timid Kyurem-W.
*Arceus-Water can opt for a Timid nature for more Speed if necessary, though it should run at least 252 HP EVs and 100 Defense EVs, (comma) the minimum necessary to survive a +1 Double-Edge from Adamant Mega Salamence after Stealth Rock damage.

Usage Tips
========

* Arceus-Water makes a solid initial switch-in for threats such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence. Some caution should be exercised, (AC) as these Pokemon can all do considerable damage to Arceus-Water with the correct move.
* Should the need arise, Arceus-Water can be also used as a safe pivot switch against Primal Kyogre if it manages to switch in on Primal Groudon.
* Bear in mind that Arceus-Water cannot beat Swords Dance Primal Groudon by itself—the best option for Arceus-Water against such a set is to use Toxic and play around Primal Groudon's attacks with teammates until enough poison damage accumulates to KO it. Attempting to determine what set Primal Groudon might be from Team Preview can help determine if it is safe for Arceus-Water to take it on.
* Defog is best used on forced switches—the only entry hazard setter Arceus-Water wants to try and take on by itself is Primal Groudon.
* Although Mega Gengar takes a lot of damage from Judgment, it can easily trap and take out Arceus-Water if it manages to switch in relatively unscathed, so exercise caution against it.

Team Options
========

* Arceus-Water can fit onto many balanced and stall teams due to its utility and great synergy with other defensive Pokemon.
* Primal Groudon can check many threats to Arceus-Water, including Primal Kyogre, Xerneas, and most Steel-types.
* Ho-Oh loves Defog support and can take on Xerneas and Steel-types, while Arceus-Water can handle many physical attackers that threaten Ho-Oh in return such as Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, and Mega Salamence.
* Giratina-O provides a backup answer to Primal Groudon and can provide Defog support, allowing Arceus-Water to use two attacks.
* In a similar vein, Lugia and Celesteela both provide a backup answer to Mega Salamence, lessening the need for Arceus-Water to run Ice Beam. Lugia greatly appreciates having Defog support as well.
* Steel-types such as Klefki, Magearna, Ferrothorn, and Bronzong can absorb Toxic for Arceus-Water while helping against Xerneas. Klefki and Magearna also help against other threatening special attackers such as Yveltal.
* Xerneas offers clerical support with Aromatherapy, provides a check to Dark-types, and can threaten offensive teams that might be able to overpower Arceus-Water.
* Blissey checks most special attackers and can help keep Arceus-Water alive with Wish and Heal Bell. Clefable fills a similar role, but it is more specialized towards handling Xerneas and Dark-types.
* Mega Sableye can keep most Spikes users from setting up on Arceus-Water courtesy of Magic Bounce, as well as providing an answer for Extreme Killer Arceus should it attempt to set up on Arceus-Water.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Reflect provides additional support against physical attackers for Arceus-Water and its team.
* Grass Knot 3HKOes Primal Kyogre, allowing Arceus-Water to break Rest variants.
* Iron Defense can allow Arceus-Water to defeat Swords Dance Primal Groudon in conjunction with Toxic.
* Perish Song punishes Pokemon that attempt to set up on Arceus-Water by putting them on a timer, notably acting as a deterrent for Calm Mind + Refresh Arceus formes. However, Toxic is sufficient in most other cases.
* Waterium Z can be used with Surf to OHKO Mega Gengar after Stealth Rock damage, but the damage output is underwhelming, particularly being unable to OHKO Ho-Oh. Splash Plate Judgment is superior in almost all cases for decent, consistent damage.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Arceus-Water cannot hit Steel-types with Toxic and its attacks will often do little damage back if they have some means of recovery or resistance to Water-type moves. Dialga, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, and Klefki cripple Arceus-Water with Toxic while potentially taking advantage of it to set up entry hazards. Bronzong, Celesteela, and defensive Solgaleo can also outstall Arceus-Water if necessary with Toxic, especially if Arceus-Water lacks Judgment.

**Shadow Tag**: Mega Gengar can trap and remove Arceus-Water from the game relatively easily with status-boosted Hex or Destiny Bond, although it needs to be wary of Judgment. Wobbuffet can use Encore to turn Arceus-Water into easy setup fodder for a teammate.

**Toxic**: Toxic ruins Arceus-Water's walling ability, making it easy to outstall. Blissey and Clefable are among the most dangerous users, (AC) since they can shrug off status with Heal Bell, leaving Arceus-Water with no method to effectively damage them.

**Setup Sweepers**: Geomancy Xerneas can set up on Arceus-Water with little risk to itself and easily KO it, especially if Xerneas has Rest or Aromatherapy to remove Toxic. Nasty Plot Darkrai, Z-Heal Block Palkia, and most flavors of Swords Dance Arceus formes and Calm Mind + Refresh Arceus formes can also setup set up on Arceus-Water and overwhelm it or at least force it to switch out. If Arceus-Water is not using Judgment, Mega Lucario can set up Swords Dance with ease on a resisted Ice Beam and proceed to KO Arceus-Water with Close Combat, making it very dangerous. Swords Dance Primal Groudon can also overwhelm Arceus-Water with boosted attacks before succumbing to Toxic.

**Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre can switch in on Arceus-Water with ease and either KO it with Thunder or outstall it with Toxic or Scald burns in conjunction with Rest.

**Electric-types**: Tapu Koko and Zekrom can easily OHKO Arceus-Water with STAB Electric-type attacks, though they risk being 2HKOed by Judgment and Ice Beam on a direct switch-in if they switch in directly, respectively. (not really sure what's going on here though since if they OHKO Arceus-Water and outrun it, there's no real scenario in which they'll get 2HKOed. at that rate it may be better to just make it "they take over half from Judgment and Ice Beam if they switch in directly")

**Shaymin-S**: Shaymin-S outspeeds Arceus-Water and OHKOes Arceus-Water it with Seed Flare, though it cannot switch in on Ice Beam.
 
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