that wasn't your argument at all, you said it was decent on the basis of a comparison to ice punch. now you're just a defending a point you didn't even make and has been discussed previously.
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Black and White Kyurem
- Thread starter shrang
- Start date
Judging from my wins and losses on wifi battles and PO, I'd say Kyurem B is a solid pokemon, imo. However, it does need the rest of the team to back it up. I use a mixed tier team, and my most useful ally for Kyurem B is Bronzong, or (Insert screener here). Only problem is that any Fire or Fighting type is gonna murder this setup. Anyway, I use my Kyurem B as a mixed wall/ Physical sweeper. I'm gonna get flamed I'm sure, but I usually send out my Deoxys D for spikes to start things out, OR my Trick Room Gengar to get that out, though Deoxys D's purpose on my team is for speed spiking. After that and/ or Gengar, I use Steelix for Stealth Rocks and possible kills with Earthquake and Gyro Ball. Steelix is also equipped with magnet rise, instead of toxic to avoid earth power users and earthquake. If needed I'll use Blastoise for support in that he has rapid spin and scald for those pesky fire types (hurrhurr). Wow I trailed off. Anyway, depending on the situation, my Kyurem B has those two purposes ready, though sweeping is situational. Sub Freeze Shock is pretty damn helpful with screens set up. Sorry if this is noobish, I've only been into competition for a month.
there probaly going 2 be ubers, but r they already? or are they not yet anything?
...They were declared Uber, but if you have a simple question, get a simple answer.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3450215
Also, when it takes someone longer to read what you are saying than it takes for them to type their sentence and grab a link to add to it...
Also, although I'm not interested to much in the Uber Metagame, I'm still very interested in everyones impressions now of the two new forms. With this much time past, has anyone formed new opinions on them? Specifically Kyruem-B.
I realize the debate was quite on sided, but maybe he just needed a bit more time to find the right set?
I'm using a more "bulky" Kyu-W on my Team
First it looked like this:
Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fusion Flare
- Earth Power
Max HP to take on hits, modest max s.atk + specs draco meteor is just an overkill on everything that does not resist, even the great wall named Lugia takes a fuck-ton of damage and is to 75% OHKO'ed after SR damage.
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Kyurem-W (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/80 SpDef Lugia: 71,63% - 84,62%
Entry hazards damage: 104
After entry hazards: 402 - 456 (96,63% - 109,62%)
75% chance to OHKO
But it happend quiet often that it survived so I changed Kyu-W's EV's a bit:
Kyurem-W @ Choice Specs
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 124 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fusion Flare
- Earth Power
I took away some HP EVs and invested them into speed so that Kyu-W can outspeed Great Wall-Lugia and kill it off with another Draco.
EDIT!!! (calc VS CM Lugia if it tries to switch in *lol* ):
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Kyurem-W (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Lugia: 75,96% - 89,66%
Entry hazards damage: 104
After entry hazards: 420 - 477 (100,96% - 114,66%)
Guaranteed OHKO
First it looked like this:
Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fusion Flare
- Earth Power
Max HP to take on hits, modest max s.atk + specs draco meteor is just an overkill on everything that does not resist, even the great wall named Lugia takes a fuck-ton of damage and is to 75% OHKO'ed after SR damage.
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Kyurem-W (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/80 SpDef Lugia: 71,63% - 84,62%
Entry hazards damage: 104
After entry hazards: 402 - 456 (96,63% - 109,62%)
75% chance to OHKO
But it happend quiet often that it survived so I changed Kyu-W's EV's a bit:
Kyurem-W @ Choice Specs
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 124 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fusion Flare
- Earth Power
I took away some HP EVs and invested them into speed so that Kyu-W can outspeed Great Wall-Lugia and kill it off with another Draco.
EDIT!!! (calc VS CM Lugia if it tries to switch in *lol* ):
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Kyurem-W (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Lugia: 75,96% - 89,66%
Entry hazards damage: 104
After entry hazards: 420 - 477 (100,96% - 114,66%)
Guaranteed OHKO
Because all dragons exkeept bulky Dialga and Dragonite (w/o taken SR dmg to Multiscale) are killed by Draco... so I do not need Ice Beam; Landorus and Gliscor are OHKO'ed as well... Bulky grass types *lol* are also extremly damage for example Grasseus wont enjoy risking to get hit by Specs Fusion Flare (with sun boost; I have a Support Groudon on my team)... and even wont enjoy the Specs Meteor.
Fusion Flare is there to hit all the 4x fire weak Mons in UBER which are quiete common (Ferro, Scizor, Forretress and friends...Genesect as well when its released).
Earth Power is most likely for Heatrans which I suprisingly face very often on PO / PS....
Also this moveset is a nice addition to my team... dealing with Mon's I otherwise would have trouble against or just to hit everything very hard, so that my opponent have to think twice who he switches in...it also forces alot of switches to make my hazards do work as well.
Yeah, with Kyurem-W you really don't need Dragon Pulse and Ice Beam on the same set since the coverage is kind of redundant. The whole debate for Ice Beam vs. Dragon Pulse basically boils down to whether you want to do a little bit more damage or have slightly better coverage (or more to the point, whether you want your team to do better against Kyogre or Lugia). Of course it doesn't matter too much because Draco Meteor and sun-boosted Fusion Flare are better than both of them in 99% of the situations you'll encounter in Ubers. So if you have another Lugia counter on your team (Darkrai, Zekrom, etc. and I'm assuming preliator does in this case), it's perfectly reasonably to run Dragon Pulse over Ice Beam if you're ok with sacrificing a little power.
One thing I definitely will say about your set, preliator, is that you should take off 4 HP EVs so that Kyurem's HP is an odd number. As your spread is right now, you can only come in on SR 3 times. This is pretty important since even Specs Kyurem-W can't fire off too many Draco Meteors without having to switch out.
One thing I definitely will say about your set, preliator, is that you should take off 4 HP EVs so that Kyurem's HP is an odd number. As your spread is right now, you can only come in on SR 3 times. This is pretty important since even Specs Kyurem-W can't fire off too many Draco Meteors without having to switch out.
Thank you very much! I'll change that immediatly.
And I aggree that its extremly important for a Mon weak to SR to come in as often as possible! Btw...yes, I do not fear Lugia.
You're missing the point of Ice Beam, which is that it grants similar coverage to Dragon Pulse but also hitting certain crucial targets more effectively, such as Ferrothorn and Grass Arceus. While yes, you do have coverage moves, the coverage provided by Ice Beam is essential in differentiating itself with other Dragons, most notably Specs Palkia (don't even say 10% more SAtk). Since you already have Draco Meteor and a consistent move, there is little reason to use Dragon Pulse.
I'll test Ice Beam over Dragonpulse and I'll tell later if it worked out better.
Specs Palkia also is a beast but Kyu-W packs alot more power; Modest Max Specs Palkia 657 SAtk; Modest Max Specs Kyu-W 723 SAtk; now thats hell of alot more... the only thing why i would choose Palkia over Kyu-W in generel is cuz it can be a Blissey/Chansey Boxer.
EDIT!!! :
I tested and it really made no difference in all the matched I had...
So in my opinion its like "whatever"... run Ice Beam or Dragon Pulse... you'll be fine with both moves.
I disagree with this. Ice Beam > Dragon Pulse all the way. Why are you even using Dragon Pulse when you have STAB Ice Beam and you are also using Draco Meteor.
1) Ice Beam is marginally stronger and the freeze rate still counts.
2) Like what Jibaku said, Ice Beam strikes quite a few crucial targets for major damage: Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Grass Arceus(regardless of weather and Fusion Flare is piss weak outside of sun), Ground Arceus(OHKO regardless of spread), also Ice Beam knocks out Groudon in one hit without resorting to Draco Meteor. You cannot assume sun is always up even when you have Groudon because you might not always control the weather with Kyogre so common.
3) Kyogre does not enjoy Draco Meteor at all. Ice Beam smashes Lugia. Lugia can easily outspeed you with a little Speed investment, and it can Roost off Draco Meteor.
4) STAB Ice Beam is what sets Kyurem-W apart from Specs Palkia, Reshiram and Dialga. Don't even argue that extra power sets it apart, the extra KOes are not really significant.
Keep in mind Reshiram and Palkia outdamage Kyurem-W with Blue Flare in sun and Hydro Pump in rain.
Basically echoing what Jibaku said. Palkia will never switch in directly on Kyurem-W and Ice Beam still does major damage to it.
1) Ice Beam is marginally stronger and the freeze rate still counts.
2) Like what Jibaku said, Ice Beam strikes quite a few crucial targets for major damage: Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Grass Arceus(regardless of weather and Fusion Flare is piss weak outside of sun), Ground Arceus(OHKO regardless of spread), also Ice Beam knocks out Groudon in one hit without resorting to Draco Meteor. You cannot assume sun is always up even when you have Groudon because you might not always control the weather with Kyogre so common.
3) Kyogre does not enjoy Draco Meteor at all. Ice Beam smashes Lugia. Lugia can easily outspeed you with a little Speed investment, and it can Roost off Draco Meteor.
4) STAB Ice Beam is what sets Kyurem-W apart from Specs Palkia, Reshiram and Dialga. Don't even argue that extra power sets it apart, the extra KOes are not really significant.
Keep in mind Reshiram and Palkia outdamage Kyurem-W with Blue Flare in sun and Hydro Pump in rain.
Basically echoing what Jibaku said. Palkia will never switch in directly on Kyurem-W and Ice Beam still does major damage to it.
Rockceus with 252 HP/4 Sp.Atk/252 Spe (Standard Mono Attacker) Vs:
0/0 Black Kyurem 84.9%-100.3% (OHKO after SR. High chance with 1 layer of Spikes)
0/4 White Kyurem 77.2%-91% (OHKO after SR)
Rockceus does have to watch out when switching in against Kyurem-B as even Jolly Scarf Kyurem-B can 2HKO with 1 layer of Spikes using Outrage. Although in that situation you switch to a steel and save Arceus.
It does even better at checking Kyurem-W though.The only move that can threaten a 2HKO is Focus Blast (not as common as Earth Power in my experience) and that only does 41%-48.6% in the Sand (assuming Timid Scarf).
EDIT: The Kyurem-W calc assumes sand.Out of Sand, Earth Power can 2HKO with a layer of spikes
I don't think it matters much what you're locked into. After an attack, choiced kyruem is likely going to be forced out as your oppoppent is going to send in either their revenge killer or proper resist to whatever attack you just locked yourself into. Also, even at -2 a specs draco metor from kyruem-w should hoko anything it's super effective against. Unless it's something very uncommon and bulky like arceus dragon I guess. But I can see how having dragon pulse could be helpful mid or late game when you want to lock yourself into a good stab option. So Draco metor / dragon pulse / ice beam / focus blast seems like the best option to me, if you really think you need it. Otherwise I'd use draco metor / ice beam / fusion flare / earth power or focus blast.
Ignoring the fact that I can't think of any reason why you would choose to stay in after being locked into a Draco Meteor, -2 max SpA Modest Specs Draco Meteor still does a lot of damage. It still OHKO's Palkia, Giratina-O, Zekrom, and frail stuff (Rayquaza, Deoxys, etc.),has a very good chance to OHKO Groudon, Darkrai, Giratina, and Psychokiller Mewtwo with hazards, and it hits offensive Dialga and Kyogre pretty hard. With a Modest nature and Specs, -2 Draco Meteor is functionally the same as a slightly weaker Dragon Pulse and will OHKO in all the situations Dragon Pulse would. Again, there's really no point running both Ice Beam and Dragon Pulse on the same set since they're so redundant, so just pick one (the better one) (Ice Beam).
I may exaggerate in this next part so bear with me, but I think that cutting Fusion Flare is a horrible idea. One of the big draws to Turboblaze pokemon is that they can OHKO Forry and Skarmory through Sturdy, which is useful since it prevents your opponent from setting up their entry hazard suite, including the entry hazards that Kyurem is weak to (read: all of them). There's also a whole list of other common pokemon that you could hit with Fusion Flare for more than his STAB moves...Ferrothorn, Steel Arceus, Jirachi, Scizor, Heatran (because of Turboblaze)...cutting it is just not a good idea gicen the prevalence of both sun teams and 4x weak to fire pokemon in the current format.
I may exaggerate in this next part so bear with me, but I think that cutting Fusion Flare is a horrible idea. One of the big draws to Turboblaze pokemon is that they can OHKO Forry and Skarmory through Sturdy, which is useful since it prevents your opponent from setting up their entry hazard suite, including the entry hazards that Kyurem is weak to (read: all of them). There's also a whole list of other common pokemon that you could hit with Fusion Flare for more than his STAB moves...Ferrothorn, Steel Arceus, Jirachi, Scizor, Heatran (because of Turboblaze)...cutting it is just not a good idea gicen the prevalence of both sun teams and 4x weak to fire pokemon in the current format.
Ok, thanks for answering! (((:
I thought so as well that cutting fusion flare wouldn't be a good idea... I've even tried d.pulse over f.flare and it did not worked out... for said reason, steel types. I just wanted to ask more experienced battler's cuz I'm kind of new to the uber's metagame. Thank you very much for your answere! (:
This is a little off the topic of the current discussion, but I've been running Kyurem-W with Draco Meteor/Ice Beam/Focus Blast/Fusion Flare with an Expert Belt on my sun team and it has worked wonders for me as a lure. Nobody expects it, considering the massive popularity of Choiced sets. It does miss the boosts of Scarf and Specs, but it's well worth it.
As I have been running a stall team as of late with Chansey, I have not yet felt threatened by Kyurem-W. Even his massive special attacks are easily soft boiled off, and the (rare) outrage is also manageable. Additionally, if Kyurem-W is at -2, I bring in my Latias who can safely calm mind and recover up. All in all, not as big of a threat, though that is just for my specific team.
Even though I run Skarmory, I find Kyurem-B, though he is less commonly run, to be a huge threat because the commonly packed Ice Beam simply ruins Skarmorys bad SpD stat, so my decision on which switch to make against Choice Sets becomes that much more difficult.
Even though I run Skarmory, I find Kyurem-B, though he is less commonly run, to be a huge threat because the commonly packed Ice Beam simply ruins Skarmorys bad SpD stat, so my decision on which switch to make against Choice Sets becomes that much more difficult.
Actually unless I'm calcing it wrong, Ice Beam and Fusion Bolt do approximate same damage to a physically defensive Skarmory. If its Specially Defensive Skarm, Fusion Bolt will obviously do more. So, you dont need Ice Beam to nail Skarmory at all. Ice Beam off unboosted Kyurem-B is not that strong anyway. Another thing, the problem with Chansey is that apart from full stall teams, its complete setup bait for most in Ubers. I'm talking less setup and more stuff like Sub Ho-Oh / Lugia / Giratina-O. With Latias here to take Kyogre on, Chansey and Ferrothorn will normally dip.
Just nitpicking here you are better of with a ev spread of 252 HP/ 82 SDef/ 176 Spe on Arceus-rock because it lets you avoid the 2HKO from WK with focus blast in the sand while still outspeeding Speedy Lugia (more common now thanks to multiscale) and Max Speed Ho-Oh.
Iam not ready to be so tehcnical and cientific so iam going to be direct:
Hone Blackyu Ideas
Nature: Maibe Hasty or Naive
EV: Priorize Speed and SpA and let the rest to Atk
Item: Lum Berry/ Life Orb/
Moveset
-Hone Claws
-Fusion Bolt
-Outrage /Dragon Claw
-Blizzard/Focus Blast
Thats it ( Maybe not the greatest set but, Thats it)
Hone Blackyu Ideas
Nature: Maibe Hasty or Naive
EV: Priorize Speed and SpA and let the rest to Atk
Item: Lum Berry/ Life Orb/
Moveset
-Hone Claws
-Fusion Bolt
-Outrage /Dragon Claw
-Blizzard/Focus Blast
Thats it ( Maybe not the greatest set but, Thats it)