BW Doubles Metagame Discussion

Stratos

Banned deucer.
approved by jellbro

Hey there, if you were around for the good old days of BW Doubles or even if you weren't, this is the place to discuss its metagame! A lot of veterans have been mentioning their love for the now all-but-disbanded format, myself included, and new users have expressed interest in learning it. Feel free to link replays and share thoughts itt, honestly it will be almost like learning a new metagame for all of us so don't be afraid to explore! In the immortal words of Mrs. Frizzle, "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!"

Notable mechanics changes from XY Doubles:
  • Steel resists Ghost and Dark
  • Gems exist and confer a 1.5x boost
  • Knock Off has 20 base power
  • Ability-summoned weather conditions are permanent
  • Follow Me/Rage Powder have +3 priority (same as Fake Out)
  • Standard Singles Sleep Clause is enforced
  • Grass Types are affected by powders, Electric Types can be paralyzed
  • Sleep Timer resets on switch-out
  • Wide Guard / Quick Guard can fail like Protect
  • Double Protects work 50% of the time.
  • Various Special attacks have higher BP
  • Critical Hits do 2x Damage
Some useful teams to get started if you really got nothin:
Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Manaphy @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Blizzard
- Protect

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Feint
- Wide Guard

Scizor @ Metal Coat
Ability: Technician
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Protect

Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Volcarona @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 148 HP / 252 SpA / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Rage Powder
- Protect
Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
- Icy Wind
- Scald
- Protect
- Helping Hand

Kingdra @ Dragon Gem
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Muddy Water
- Protect
- Substitute
- Draco Meteor

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam

Thundurus (M) @ Electric Gem
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Feint

Scizor @ Steel Gem
Ability: Technician
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Protect
Chief Justice (Scizor) @ Occa Berry
Trait: Technician
EVs: 136 HP / 152 Atk / 172 SDef / 48 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Protect

El Presidente (Tyranitar) @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 100 HP / 184 Atk / 224 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Predator (Genesect) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

The Nuclear Option (Victini) @ Choice Band
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Bolt Strike
- Brick Break

Chief of Staff (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Heal Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Helping Hand

M16 (Breloom) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Spore
- Protect
 
Last edited:
This is amazing. Thanks pwne. Im a really big fan of bw doubles but struggle to find games so this will really help!

Firstly, i just wanna state that sun is quite bad in this meta. With only ninetales as a setter, you have very little in terms of power unlike the nuclear bomb that is charizard y.

Sand is also very much better in bw, though usually found without excadrill by its side. It is very good as an opposing weather disruptor and without fairy types, can actually stay around for a bit and is not 100% sackable. All the games i won in sdpl were using this kind of team.

Hitmontop is amazing, ALMOST the landorus t of bw. It has all the same qualities as it does in xy, but now it actually hits very hard with fighting gem close combat so it isnt dead weight as soon as it has used fake out.

Gems are very big, and quite game changing. If you are stuck for what item to use on a poke, use a gem. They are so easy to throw on most pokes and have no drawbacks, a one time specs/band attack. Latios, hitmontop and tornadus i are the three pokes that almost always run a gem, but be wary of a gem on any other poke.

I think i touched the of most of the main bw stuff. Cant wait to play more people!
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
i made a new team based around sand offense, after making a ton of changes every time i lost a match i finally came across a variant that I REALLY REALLY like, the basic premise is to use Jirachi (best FM Gen V NA) and Thundurus to support a bunch of super offensive pokemon cleaning out counters for a Rock Slide Tar sweep. Tar being good feels weird as hell but it truly is :O. Also, GEMS. And Special Move BAP boosts, holy shit. It feels so good to be playing this metagame again.

I highly recommend for anyone who was around for the original gen v doubles, please make new teams instead of using the ones provided in the op to keep the metagame growing. if this is your first experience with the meta, then those teams are a great place to get started :)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5smogondoubles-220379749
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5smogondoubles-220383580
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5smogondoubles-220385495
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Roar Cune was pretty good vs Stratos. I really enjoyed this metagame but I find it too difficult to get a match
you just have to spam the hell out of the chat but i know a good amount of people have been playing bw lately

landorus-t is really annoying to me in this metagame because its kind of useless garbdixerino vs rain and TR but super duper good vs sand and goodstuff. Which i guess is how it was in XY but it's a lot more pronounced here since 80% of XY teams are goodstuff. Sand/Weatherless teams have to be super serious in their preparation for it, but I never get mileage out of using it even when im using it on Sand (maybe i need to pack like Sunny Day for it to work)

"Welcome to BW, Population: Thundurus" is even truer than i remembered it being though, this pokemon is just. so. good. in such an offensive meta, that thunder wave and swagger support has a lot more capability to turn games on its head than in XY, even ignoring the fact that it can paralyze Electrics again and gets a usable Hidden Power.
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
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Haven't really played enough to comment too much on the meta yet beyond saying that it's very fun. I enjoy it a lot more than ORAS Doubles. Gems for example let you do cool things with so many mons that you just wouldn't bother using and the extra KOs you can nab gives you more leeway in teambuilding to use things that aren't necessarily powerhouses in their own right but can get some good shots in and not be offensive dead weight thanks to the gem boost. Just gonna drop some replays here of the battles I've done:

Me vs Social
Me vs Stratos (game 1)
Me vs Stratos (game 2)
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
hardest thing for me to adjust to is the dark nerf TBH, i'll have a dark type out vs a steel type and i'll just have this realization like FUCK I CAN'T TOUCH IT, which is especially bad since everyone has a steel type now cuz how else do u stop dragons. Especially prominent with bisharp whose dark/steel coverage is now very subadequate. Perhaps Bisharps should be running a fighting move over night slash but either way I'm thinking Tornadus is the superior defiant user in this meta, just as it says in the viability rankings, and u should only use bisharp if u REALLY want sucker or have no other steel types.

On the other hand the change i am loving the most is the Follow Me buff, being able to redirect Fake Outs with Rachi/Volc just reminds me how FUCKING BROKEN that move is in gen six, gf please rebuff these moves cuz fake out is turbogay
 
Some first impressions of the metagame:
  • Tar, Cress, and Top are extremely good mons that are easy to slap onto teams (personally, I would say they are the top 3 mons in the meta). Cress and Top is an incredible supportive threats, while Tar is a versatile and dangerous offensive threat. From the matches I have had, there is a Rock paper scissor MU between these 3 mons, where top checks tar, Tar checks Cress, and Cress checks Top.
  • Due to Gen 5's Sleep mechanics, status moves that induce sleep are incredibly powerful tools in the metagame, as they basically make your foe a sitting duck for 2-3 turns and the opponent can't switch out either because the sleep counter resets.
  • Tornadus is the best defiant user in the tier thanks to Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics (extremely good move for sniping Hitmontop and Landog). Also can provide Speed control with Tailwind.
  • Gems are very good and game changing. They provide a huge one time power boost with no drawbacks. Very easy item to slap onto pokes if you can't think of any other item to use.
Overall, I'm finding this metagame to be quite fun. Here's the one of the teams I'm currently using:
Hydreigon @ Dragon Gem
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Protect

Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 SpD / 108 Spe
Calm Nature
- Follow Me
- Psychic
- Icy Wind
- Helping Hand

Terrakion @ Rock Gem
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Substitute
- Protect

Cresselia (F) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 140 HP / 252 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Icy Wind
- Helping Hand

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Scizor @ Occa Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Bug Bite
- Protect
 
So this is a team which has done very well for me, beating almost everyone ive played with it (about 20 wins 2 losses) and won me both the games in which i used it in sdpl. Its honestly just sand offense but its a very easy team to pick up and use.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Power Whip

Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Feint

Latios (M) @ Dragon Gem
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Tailwind
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Low Kick
- Protect

Volcarona @ Lum Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Heat Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Protect


Ferrothorn is very good in bw and is probs my favourite poke to use. It finds a way onto almost every team i build. Its reliably beats so many team styles and threats its silly. Rain, opposing sand, trick room, dragons and rotom-w. With a combination of leech seed, leftovers as well as great bulk and typing, it lasts forever on the field. Thunder wave is to slow down tailwind teams and rain sweepers. I didnt feel as if i needed gyro ball because ttar beats most of the pokes gyro ball would be hitting harder anyway (latios and tornadus basically). The evs just give ferrothorn good all-round bulk to last longer.

Rotom-w is my second rain check and another way to just generally hit bulky waters. The moves are standard and the evs are maximising special attack with a few evs in speed to beat 136 adamant hitmontop and burn it before it hits you with a close combat. The rest are in hp for bulk.

the reason im using qd volcarona is because with one boost, it can easily sweep a team as many are unprepared for it. Its also my main way of beating steels not named heatran. Sometimes i can lead with top and volcarona to form the topmoth core and try to do deal major damage from the start.

The other 3 members are super standard.
 
i used to like lum berry metagross and hitmontop wideguard together. its good cause the common fire and ground moves in doubles r spread. then you run like gyarados and dragon gem latios to poop on the rain.
 
I feel like conk tran cress cube and jirachi are just like amazing. Jirachi resisting pretty much everything but tran heat wave and lando-t eq is annoying af and conk/tran abuse every free turn they get really really well. Conkeldurr just straight up fucks your shit up [fam] and it should be noted that it can hit basically everything you can think of but cress jellicent and a small list of others.

Conkeldurr @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Protect

Based off Arash Omatti's 2013 worlds conkeldurr (yeah it's from vgc but who cares) this thing becomes incredibly hard to deal with since it chunks everything and recovers most damage you throw at it with sitrus+drain punch. It doesn't really need anything more reliable to stay alive the entirety of the game, especially if you get trick room up.
Never give this guy free turns holy shit
Cress gets smacked around, the poor thing. Too bad those abusive people hitting it aren't going to kill it before it sets Trick Room or uses SKILL SWAP on a heatran.
Cube just like... hits everything again. But I'm not talking about ur gay sub sets im talking scarf
Gyarados is also pretty fun to use but you have to set up dd at like the perfect time or else you're just shitting on yourself. After 1 DD it starts tearing apart the meta game tbh
Subtran can legit just win matches all the time, you don't even need to be awake to do it.

Just thought I would post my first thoughts back since there was the big explosion of users starting to play gen 5 and dpl is coming up soon
 
So something I was wondering when it comes to BW Doubles is whether or not Shaymin-S is banned. It is on the viability rankings and was only banned during XY. Mentioning this because A) I am not positive on whether it is (I think it is but just want to confirm), and B) it would be a good idea to mention that on the list of notable changes.

So moving on, one of my favorite BW Doubles threats in Tornadus-Incarnate, who is far less relevant in the XY metagame. In BW Doubles, it is essentially the best Defiant Pokemon in the entire format:


Tornadus (Item: Flying Gem)
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Acrobatics
-Superpower
-Tailwind/Taunt/Heat Wave
-Protect

Tornadus is pretty simple, but the 50% boost to Acrobatics makes it far more threatening. For those who don't know, burning a Gem will make Acrobatics full 110 power and then add the 50% power boost.

252 Atk Flying Gem Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 297-351 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Consider this is a neutral hit, then add in Superpower for coverage as well as Tailwind for speed control and you have a threat on your hands. In summary, if you give this thing a Defiant boost, then this stuff starts happening:

+1 252 Atk Flying Gem Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Cresselia: 300-354 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Cresselia: 253-301 (56.9 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Don't give it a Defiant boost. Just don't. Things will die if you do.
 
I've actually tried smack down in the 3rd slot along with garchomp to hit rotom w and thundurus hard. although I like taunt/ u turn best and usually leave tailwind to another poke.

scizor is another one of those pokemon that isn't very viable in oras but is a big threat in bw. with cresselia and ttar being common, as well as pokemon like latios, kyurem b etc., getting up a swords dance can be huge in opening up holes to exploit. a steel gem boosted bullet punch hits extremely hard at +1/+2 and in a meta where strong priority isn't as common due to the lack of azumarill and talonflame, it can really help.

Scizor @ Steel Gem
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Protect

I can't remember if there is a better ev spread or not. lum berry can be used to help vs rotom but steel gem gives you that big damage to break through a check.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
skymin isnt banned btw and probably doesnt deserve to be in this meta cuz its not as good w/ ttar s rank bustin up its sashes and every team havin a bulky thund and hail existing and tr being more common (dunno if its better lol but its more common) and weather sweepers etc
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
thank god theres no rachi in DPL that shit literally turned the meta into rachi+ho mons cuz there is very little that can dunk it w/o getting dunked first by a partner like keld/lando-i/cube/skymin/torn since we aint got no good defensive fires in this gen (rip zard y ;_;) and its not weak to dark/ghost. Steel is honestly fucking busted in BW but now the only choices for steels are Genesect / Heatran / Bisharp / Ferrothorn / Metagross / Scizor (I guess lol, don't really like it) all of which have their pretty substantial flaws as opposed to Jirachi which was just fucking silly. Teams were always weak to either Jirachi or Water-types, it was impossible to build for the meta. Sweet freedom now tho.

With Jirachi gone, Tornadus might be S rank it's so good. u can still redirect fast fake outs with Togekiss which is actually decent without Diancie runnin around or defensive Volc if youre brave, Deoxys-A goes from literally unusable to probably quite good, Tar gets better (but I think it was a little overrated before, so it balances out) and hyper offense gets much worse, by worse i mean it's still a super good playstyle but now its at least fucking fun to play against
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
me and shay and memoric are like the 3 most active bw players by a lot and we had a chat about the meta

on rachi:
[12:56 AM] Stratos: btw memo
[12:56 AM] Stratos: me and shay
[12:56 AM] Stratos: played some no-rachi bw
[12:56 AM] Stratos: its fucking great
[12:57 AM] Memoric: i'd imagine
[12:57 AM] Memoric: when i played shaian with rachi b4
[12:57 AM] Memoric: rachi was a bitch
[12:57 AM] after hanabi: i need to fix up a lot of my other teams
[12:57 AM] Memoric: i cant ohko it while the partner just outright demolishes me
[12:57 AM] Memoric: and i cant slowly take rachi out if my mons are dying
[12:57 AM] Memoric: like
[12:57 AM] Memoric: ???
[12:58 AM] Stratos: i owned shay twice
[12:58 AM] Stratos: with a sick team
[12:58 AM] Stratos: amoong is still hot in bw
[1:09 AM] Memoric: building bw is really fun tho
[1:09 AM] Stratos: only w/o rachi
[1:09 AM] Stratos: fuck
[1:09 AM] Stratos: u cannot cover both rachi and waters
[1:09 AM] Stratos: its simply not done

on tran:
[12:58 AM] after hanabi: yeah megagross is a bitch to that hailroom
[12:58 AM] after hanabi: fucking steels man
[12:58 AM] Memoric: i've been really trying to avoid using heatrans
[12:59 AM] Memoric: because of how it gets dunked on by rain
[12:59 AM] Stratos: i dont too much like heatran
[12:59 AM] Stratos: in bw
[12:59 AM] after hanabi: heatran and cress
[12:59 AM] Stratos: its only ok
[12:59 AM] after hanabi: are two mons i think are overrated in bw
[12:59 AM] after hanabi: cress just sorta sits there doing nothing
[12:59 AM] Memoric: tran is a b rank

on hitmontop:
[12:59 AM] Stratos: does anyone else feel like
[12:59 AM] Stratos: if their team doesnt have
[12:59 AM] Stratos: fake out faster than 70 or fm faster than 70
[12:59 AM] Stratos: theyre in shit creek
[1:00 AM] Memoric: kinda yeah
[1:00 AM] Memoric: one free turn is really crucial fam
[1:00 AM] Memoric: when a lot of things can just smash you
[1:00 AM] Stratos: other fake outs
[1:00 AM] Stratos: arent as scary
[1:00 AM] Stratos: as hitmontops
[1:00 AM] after hanabi: yeah tops fake out leads are so much more threatening than kang
[1:00 AM] Stratos: because no feint option
[1:00 AM] Memoric: hitmontop can feint too
[1:00 AM] after hanabi: because it can run reint
[1:00 AM] Stratos: and u cant get pounded by CC if u try to switch
[1:00 AM] after hanabi: *feint
[1:00 AM] Stratos: gem CC is a fucking rape train
[1:01 AM] Memoric: why did i ever doubt gem cc
[1:01 AM] after hanabi: jolly top is only my favourite thing rn
[1:01 AM] Memoric: i used to be a bulky top nigga before
[1:01 AM] after hanabi: bulky = lame
[1:01 AM] Memoric: ya
[1:01 AM] Stratos: well
[1:01 AM] Stratos: i kinda lied
[1:01 AM] Stratos: u can do fine vs top without one of those things
[1:01 AM] Stratos: just not on offense
[1:02 AM] Stratos: u will get blown the fuck out if u try to run offense without those
[1:02 AM] Memoric: Follow Me Luke
[1:02 AM] Memoric: : )
[1:03 AM] after hanabi: i mean you can also
[1:03 AM] after hanabi: lead torn + fast attacker vs tops if you're using offense
[1:03 AM] after hanabi: and come out
[1:03 AM] after hanabi: fine
[1:03 AM] Stratos: nah
[1:03 AM] Stratos: u really dont
[1:03 AM] Stratos: thats what i tried to do
[1:03 AM] Stratos: w/ that one team

on tornadus:
[1:03 AM] Memoric: torn's a literal bitch
[1:03 AM] Stratos: torn + ape is still my favorite thing tho
[1:03 AM] Memoric: in this meta
[1:03 AM] Stratos: u get
[1:03 AM] Stratos: the fast fake out
[1:03 AM] Stratos: to boop top
[1:04 AM] Stratos: so u can lead torn ape into top for free
[1:04 AM] Stratos: and
[1:04 AM] Stratos: AND
[1:04 AM] Stratos: ape dunks steels
[1:04 AM] Stratos: like gross
[1:04 AM] Stratos: that torn cant beat
[1:04 AM] after hanabi: god fuck steels man
[1:04 AM] Memoric: mix ape?
[1:04 AM] Stratos: y
[1:04 AM] Memoric: feint infernape
[1:04 AM] Memoric: - lord
[1:04 AM] Stratos: that was analysis actually
[1:04 AM] Stratos: u also get
[1:04 AM] Stratos: my favorite anti-tr lead
[1:05 AM] Stratos: fake out + taunt
[1:05 AM] Stratos: -
[1:05 AM] Memoric: mfw Ferro doesn't have a BW analysis
[1:05 AM] Stratos: unless u run twind torn
[1:05 AM] Stratos: which is still cool

on landog:
[1:07 AM] Memoric: mfw Lando-T isn't great in BW
[1:07 AM] Memoric: how can i win now???
[1:08 AM] after hanabi: lando-t is good af breh
[1:08 AM] after hanabi: whatchu eatin
[1:08 AM] Memoric: well
[1:08 AM] Memoric: it's good
[1:08 AM] Memoric: but not gr8
[1:08 AM] Stratos: nah lando isnt that good
[1:08 AM] after hanabi: yeah top being top tier
[1:08 AM] Stratos: running intim is almost a liability
[1:09 AM] after hanabi: makes lando-t not as good
[1:09 AM] Stratos: because of fuckin torn
[1:09 AM] Stratos: and waters everywhere so

play bw my niggas its mondo fun if u want to build and dunno where to start just pm one of us im sure we'll be down
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm kind of curious: when do you run a gem vs. Life Orb? What exactly makes you say "oh a gem goes here" or "oh I use life orb here"? Should gems be the default and Life Orb the exception? Do you look for specific calcs that require that gem? How about for Full TR?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
for me its usually 1) is there a calc i want to hit i need gem for? if so, gem. alternatively, are there multiple calcs i want to hit (With different moves) that i need life orb for? If so, life orb. 2) If 1 doesn't apply, which do i value more, consistent power or longevity? Remember sand is v common + permanent in this gen so life orb attackers can chip to death FAST if you rely on them to take even resisted hits (lo keldeo taking lando eq in gen six: not a big problem. lo keldeo taking lando eq in gen v: suddenly youve got 3 turns left if you are in sand). Gems are definitely annoying sometimes because you have to manage when you use them if u need them for a specific KO and that leads to you sitting back with certain pokemon, but dying quick AF is annoying too.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
First Blood: A BW OU Team Dump

XY is a great metagame, no doubt about it, but I'll always consider BW DOU to be my first love. It's been a long while since I put serious effort into the tier, almost three years, so I went into this DPL with the goal of building a variety of different teams to try and build and develop the metagame, since I suspected that what we thought was good in 2013 was probably a very incomplete picture. I ended up going 4-0, which was fantastic. I do think there was a bit of luck in that; every week except vs qsns I had a fantastic matchup, though I do believe that that's in part because I put so much effort into preparing for this DPL. Every week I probably played with every BW main who wasn't on the opponents team—and one time I played with one who was while I wasn't thinking and had to scrap my team, that was embarrassing.

I wonder if XY players are afraid to get into BW because it's so foreign to them. I hope not, but if you are, I think my teams from this DPL would make for a good introduction to the metagame. They used a variety of different styles and Pokemon—in fact, no Pokemon repeated—and utilize a bunch of unconventional sets, but they're all solid and I think they would all make great teams to play with and learn the big threats. Title of this thread is because I was first blood for my team every week I played BW.

Without any further ado, here's the teams.

Week 2 vs qsns


Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Protect

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Follow Me
- Air Slash
- Protect

Sableye @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Foul Play
- Fake Out

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Taunt
- Earth Power

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Psycho Boost
- Low Kick
- Protect
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-365033493

This team was actually inspired by a team I built with Mishi around Sub Landorus-T in the Jirachi era, but this one is way more solid. Dual wincons of Sub Lando-T and Deoxys-A are really great at taking out bulky and fast teams respectively, and the rest of the team provides the support they need to thrive. The replay vs qsns really demonstrates the effectiveness of Deoxys-A + Togekiss which are able to pull like a four-mon comeback after I misplay badly in the middle. This is probably the weakest of my four teams, maybe because I built it first and had the least experience, but I want to dump them how they were built when I played them.

Landorus-T: I've wanted to use Sub Lando-T ever since Laurel owned me with it in 2014. It's really powerful at taking out balance teams that typically rely on Landorus-T's relative inflexibility to beat it because it's mad flexible and way harder to force out or take advantage of defensively. I went Jolly to beat Kyurem-B. I typically bring Lando in on the opponent's Intimidate user and then Sub as they switch it out, using Kiss / Sab / whoever to make sure that the Sub stays safe. If Lando-T can't be Intimidated, many teams have a lot of trouble breaking it.

Rotom-W: I used Scarf Rotom-W on my first ever DOU team and I still like it. Starting from Sub Lando-T I definitely needed a solid Rain and Tornadus check and Scarf Rotom-W is good at owning those things. It also outspeeds opposing Deo-A which might otherwise be a problem and is great at being a nuisance to most fast things with Volt Switch. I used Thunder Wave in the fourth slot because TWave + Sub = orgasm but you could use HP Ice (for Skymin) or even Trick if you're so inclined.

Togekiss: When you're using Deo-A, redirection that outspeeds Hitmontop is absolutely essential. Togekiss was better for this team because it had the ground immunity that helps Landorus-T spam EQs and because Air Slash is yet another way that I can help keep my win cons healthy. Not...too much to say here.

Sableye: Running a team like this can be hard in BW because there's really just a bunch of offensive shit ready to steamroll you at a moment's notice; Sableye helps a TON with that. Sunny Day and Will-o-Wisp are the important parts of this set; I can counter rain and preserve Deoxys's sash with the former and deal with shit like Tornadus, scarf Lando-T, Bisharp, and Hitmontop with the latter. The last two moves are kind of filler, but I went with FO and Foul Play. If I did it again I would probably run Recover or Snarl over Foul Play, becasue most of the time I used Wisp instead of FP on opponents.

Heatran: I added Tran as a TR and Steels check (and kind of a Dragons check). I don't think it's particularly good, but the prototypical TR in BW is Cress + Tran, which ShucaTran destroys, as well as all other types of Steel. Don't ask me why Flamethrower over Heat Wave, I couldn't tell you. I'm sure there was something.

Deoxys-A: DUDE DEO-A OWNS as long as u have rain or sun to keep weather from ruining your Sash. This guy just tears up, especially with kiss, the combo of those 2 is hot. Not really a tough decision with his coverage moves in this gen since knock off sucks and espeed doesnt beat redirection (and theres no talonflame lol).

Week 3 vs AuraRayquaza


Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Muddy Water
- Draco Meteor
- Protect

Terrakion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Protect

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Superpower

Volcarona @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 28 SpA / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rage Powder
- Overheat
- Bug Buzz
- Protect

Shaymin-Sky @ Focus Sash
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Protect
- Substitute
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-368504238

I noticed that AuraRayquaza was pretty weak to rain, and this is the rain team I thought up. Very hyper offensive. The plan was simply to use the two powerful Waters and the two powerful Grasses to hit the opponent with powerful typings that were hard to switch into while having plenty of Ferrothorn checks. Since I didn't need EP for Tran, I decided to use Sub Skymin, and the absolute beauty of Sub Skymin + RP Volcarona at tearing apart balance teams was an accidental discovery but boy was it a fortunate one. This team's a lot more standard sets-wise than the last one so I have a lot less to write.

Politoed: I used Choice Specs because Kingdra can deal with fast things so I let Politoed deal with bulky things, and HP Grass for Gastrodon, which otherwise had a pretty good matchup vs anything on my team that wasn't grass-type. Fact: I once KOed a Kingdra with nothing but specs hydro pumps.

Kingdra: Basis of the team of course. Pretty standard set. Timid to win mirrors, or at least tie them.

Terrakion: Lum Terrak as a Thund check. Also owns Ferrothorn, and has Taunt to stop Trick Room.

Breloom: Breloom gets Spore and strong Fighting-type moves for a secondary TR / Ferro check. It also hits hard with Superpower or Bullet Seed and checks opposing rain pretty well while also picking off weak things with Mach Punch, and Spore is really damn good. Also great for checking Sand, considering my back two were rock weak.

Volcarona: Another redirector that outspeeds Hitmontop. If you haven't noticed a pattern yet, I think it's pretty important to have a dedicated Hitmontop check in BW, because otherwise it can really throw a spanner in your works. Bug Buzz to beat Dragons, which most of my team can't really hit. Honestly besides the Speed I pulled this spread out of my ass. Volcarona is great because it's very good at redirecting Thundurus, which allows me to either Sub on it with Skymin like I do in the replay, or else whack it with a water-type move. Specs Hydro OHKOes the standard bulky spread.

Shaymin-S: I used Sash Sub because if I can get Skymin behind a sub the game is already won, but if not, I would want Focus Sash. Holy jeez this set is such a menace, and complemented Kingdra well in being able to take out defensive teams (which is good cuz Politoed was kinda disappointing). It can be incredibly hard to remove a Shaymin behind a Sub, especially with Rage Powder support from Volcarona. 10/10 would recommend. You feel like an absolute cheater when using this duo.

Week 4 vs Level 51


Tornadus @ Flying Gem
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Tailwind
- Protect

Conkeldurr @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Mach Punch
- Hammer Arm
- Wide Guard
- Ice Punch

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Rotom-Heat @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 100 SpA / 36 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 18 Spe
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt
- Protect

Cresselia @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 3 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Trick Room
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-372447367

I had no real clue what to expect vs Level 51, since he had brought the same team to the past two weeks he played and I was fairly sure he wasn't going to do that again. I decided that since my last two teams had been very fast, I would flip the script and bring some TR this week. It worked out well; OTR cress had a fantastic matchup and I was able to keep control throughout the entire game, barring a little scare when he revealed Swagger, but I took momentum back with a timely sack of my Tornadus. Yes I rip on TailRoom a shit ton but to be honest this was actually originally Taunt Tornadus and I just right before the game that decided fuck it, I never use Taunt anyways, I'll change it to be Tailwind and fiddle with some EVs. Not that Torn ended up doing much. I don't know if I've ever once clicked Tailwind since I havent used this team since I fought level 51. I really like it, but I was busy working on my next one. This team's probably rain weak. You can get away with semi-room a lot better in BW because you dont need amoonguss checks. I'm just adding shit to the end of this paragraph as it comes to me.

Tornadus: Tornadus is such a muhfuggin GOD in BW, maybe the best Pokemon in the metagame. I don't know if I really have a reason to run it, except that Torn is so frickin good.

Conkeldurr: Conk is mega powerful under TR and serves as my primary check to Rocks, which otherwise fuck up this team pretty good. Fight Gem because Fight Gem Mach Punch OHKOes Hydreigon and Terrakion, at least sometimes, and because fuck taking life orb damage on my sand check.

Kyurem-B: Two of my favorite strategies: Sub + TR and Sub + Redirection, united as one. Kyurem-B is fat enough and the rest of the team provides it the support to be a big threat under TR and then once TR wears off it's fast and scary and hopefully behind a sub unless Levjew 51 gets a billion full paras and you can go to town on things. Rain check. Takes advantage of Thundurus which is scary to much of my team.

Amoonguss: Rain check #2, and spore on TR is cool, not much to say.

Rotom-H: This slot used to be like a scarf tar or scarf lando to check torn + thund + heatran but then I got mega pwned by a scizor so now its a rotom-h. was a good call. Outruns skymin in twind. Good utility check to things.

Cresselia: OTR cress is pretty good since a lot in this meta is weak to Psychic or Ice. Also Ghosts basically don't exist and neither does kangaskhan. Speed outruns genies in Tailwind.

Week 5 vs shaian


Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 28 Def / 228 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Blizzard
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Giga Drain

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Protect

Gyarados @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icy Wind
- Waterfall
- Taunt
- Protect

Thundurus @ Electric Gem
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Infernape @ Fire Gem
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Feint

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-374824504

Building for shay was kinda interesting since I had 18 mons completely unavailable to me. I had built a totally different team for him that used sand but it had an unfixable Tornadus weak and I was so miffed about the Torn weak that I said fuck it, I'm building Scarf Abomasnow. I kinda just added two solid af heatran checks and then fleshed out the team.

Abomasnow: Scarf Abomasnow is cool af which is why it was the centerpiece of the team. Like with Cress last week, a lot is weak to Ice in that speed tier and Aboma's blizzards are fairly strong.

Hydreigon: Earth Power Hydreigon owns Heatran and very much appreciates the removal of things in the 100-111 speed tier which Abomasnow is more than happy to orchestrate.

Gyarados: Icy Wind Gyara was very cool with a team like mine that outsped everything it wanted to at -1, though I didn't get to use it because shay was already owned as fck anyways. Other than that I added Gyara because Aboma and Hydrei are both fighting weak and Gyara is a great fighting check, except for Rak, which was probably the least scary fighting.

Thundurus: Checks Keldeo, Skymin, Terrakion, and Tornadus, each of which were lookin like a threat to the team. HP Fly because I wanted to beat Volcarona and Hitmontop way more than I wanted more ice type coverage.

Infernape: Fast Fake Out keeps Hitmontop at bay, fire type to pwn steels. I use this over Keld so i can live a hit from Thundurus if need be mostly. Gem Overheat with those EVs will KO amoonguss and put Landorus-T in feint range 100% of the time.

Metagross: Life Orb for two reasons. First is so that ZHB always breaks fast Tran sub, second is because LO Mash -> Bullet Punch KOes Landorus-T (a big threat to my team) after hail damage. Used Metagross because the team desperately needed a Rock resist. Also checks Skymin which is important. BP is really good with Aboma which cant OHKO shit like Latios.

If you read this, thanks for reading!
 
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Bughouse

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Week 2 vs qsns

I like this team because it almost looks like a team you could use in ORAS, barring the fact that most people would be building with a Mega. So even though this is a BW thread, I'm curious if you agree, and if so how would you update this rough build (ie you're allowed to change mons, not just sets) to ORAS dubs?
 

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