CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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jas61292

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As per the results of our Typing Poll, CAP23 will be a Dragon/Ghost typed Pokemon. Based on this result and on the goals of our concept, we will in this thread be assessing how and to what degree the CAP should interact with various other Pokemon in the metagame, both offensively and defensively. The goal is to come up with a list of Pokemon the CAP should threaten in common gameplay scenarios, as well as Pokemon that should threaten the CAP. Our Topic Leader snake_rattler will be leading the discussion and finalizing the Threats list at the conclusion of this thread. The final say belongs to the TL (there will be no poll at the end of this thread), so please focus your arguments on his posts and questions. Here are some preliminary questions to think about in this thread:
  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
  • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
  • What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
  • What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
  • Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
  • Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
  • What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
  • Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
  • Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
  • What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
  • What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
  • What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
Obviously, no individual post has to answer every question. Please keep the assumptions minimal (e.g. "CAP23 will have at least one STAB") to avoid poll-jumping. This thread will be opened once snake_rattler has posted his opening remarks.

- - - - -

CAP 23 So Far:

Typing:
Dragon/Ghost

Concept:
Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!

Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).

Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.

So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).

This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).

Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?[/SIZE]
Topic Leader: snake_rattler
Typing Leader: HeaLnDeaL
Ability Leader: LucarioOfLegends
Stats Leader: reachzero
Movepool Leader: cbrevan
 

snake

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Welcome back everyone! CAP23's typing polls have ended, and the winning option is Dragon / Ghost! While discussion in the typing discussion got quite heated, I hope to see everyone move on as a community and advance the project peacefully. Now, it's time to determine what general groups of Pokemon and specific Pokemon we want CAP23 to be threatened by, and what CAP23 wants to threaten more specifically.

Now it might be easy to look at this typing, go over to the typing chart, and say, "Ok we want CAP23 to threaten everything that it's super effective against, and CAP23 to be threatened by everything that's super effective against it." This thread should not be made up of purely type-based observations. This is what we want CAP23 to threaten and be threatened by. So as long as it's reasonable, we can add it on the list, provided there's good enough justification. The type chart is helpful, but it shouldn't be the only driving force behind this thread. There will be a two lists by the end of this thread: a) what CAP23 checks and/or counters and b) what checks and/or counters CAP23.

At the end of the Concept Assessment thread, we decided that we want to generally target bulky Pokemon. However, that's not in any way set in stone. This means we can threaten offensive Pokemon as well, provided that sufficient reasoning is given as to why we should. Now, let's get started.

Questions:
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.

3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

 
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3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?
These would be Ghosts, U-Turn users, Volt-Switch users and Parting Shot users.

Ghosts both threaten us and we threaten them back with our respective STABs. We should make sue that we scare them more than the reverse, so they don't switch in and either do heavy damage, escape to ruin our trap, or both.

We resist Volt-Turn, so that's a start, but it doesn't stop the escape so we should threaten most uses enough to be scared to switch in and out to ruin our trap.

Parting Shot is not a a damaging move, so its Dark typing is not a problem. But what is a problem is that all users are dark or fairy typed. Now Kerfluffle was created due o a lack of other, relevant users, so it's probably the on we'd want to focus on here. Luckily, Fairies are weak to Steel and there is a Steel trapping move with a relatively high BP for trapping moves.

I do agree that Tomo is the most important answer for 1, but our typing alone should mean we should deal with quit a few others as well.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

Out of all the bulky Pokemon that there are in the metagame, I think that two Pokemon we should absolutely be able to beat are Tangrowth and Toxapex. They certainly have challenges if we choose to threaten them, but I think that these two are some of the most important Pokemon that we should be able to beat as a trapping mon. Through the specific use of Spirit Shackle (making assumptions based on type) we are able to cut off one of their most reliable ways of healing in Regenerator, their STAB moves will likely not due much based on CAP23's typing, and they are prime bait for a strong Devestating Drake since they do not resist it and cannot switch out of it. I think there are other bulky Water and Grass types that would be decently good to beat, such as Ferrothorn and Arghonaut, but Tangrowth and Toxapex should definitely be things that we should be beating, since they truly show how well these trapping moves can actually work.

2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.

Probably in terms of bulky stuff, anything that has their STABs resisted by our typing is pretty much fair game. Bulky Grass types and Water types along the lines or Arghonaut, Mega Venusaur, Pyroak, and Mollux all can't do much to CAP23, and certainly don't like the fear of a strong Z-move. Keep in mind though that Arghonaut, Pyroak, and Mollux could fish for burns, which could seriously cut into our attack power if we go physical. Outside of that, there's not too terribly much that we could seriously threaten. Probably Psychics wouldn't like the idea of getting trapped and KO'd by Spirit Shackle, although the pool of ones that we can take advantage of is a bit smaller due to secondary STAB, so a surefire set of psychics to strike should surely sound similar to Mew and Mega Gallade.

3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

Colossoil could honestly care less about the trapping effect that CAP23 inflicts, and can a) U-turn out b) use Pursuit if CAP23 tries to switch out and lay the smackdown. Even if CAP23 chooses to stay in for some ungodly reason, its Earthquakes would certainly do a number on it. A check in every instance of the word. Cyclohm is a very interesting Pokemon to identify, because it has the potential to screw CAP23 over, but doesn't always neccesarily do it. It doesn't really care about trapping if it has Shield Dust or Volt Switch, but seriously is threatened if it doesn't due to a Dragon typing. Draco Meteor and Ice Beam are still certain possibilities though, so I won't say what it should be for now.

Tapu Koko could become a very annoying Pokemon to face if given the right circumstances, as it can just pivot out with U-turn. Can also threaten CAP23 with HP Ice or DGleam possibly, so it could be an annoying mon to face. As Sereg mentioned, Kerfluffle also doesn't care for trapping much, as it is actually put at an advantage by switching into it. Can either nail CAP 23 with a Moonblast or predict the switch and click PShot, so Kerfluffle is a pretty decent check to us at a fundamental level.
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

Ok aside from tomo, we have CHANSEY, tangrowth and toxapex, celesteela could be threatened but I'm putting it as low priority rn.

Chansey is a big asshole, and as we're immune to seismic and it's only way to hurt us is toxic, I believe it's something we have to threaten. It's a physical attacker and can trap chansey in it's tracks. We can potentialy toxic stall it but we should disregard it as we're going offensive, but setting up over it seems like a good idea. Our cap23 is most likely to be physical to threatening it can be something we should do.

Tangrowth, a regenerator pivot has it's main way of recovering cut off (swapping out). Cutting out that mon's main way of moving around and as we have a good enough typing to resist it's stab and not take super effective damage from it's moves, we should be able to threaten it easily.

Same goes to toxapex, but toxapex is way more passive and we resist it's scalds. We should beware of the burns but a regenerator mon like that should be something we should threaten.

The coverage we're using to get toxapex/tomo would most likely be electric, so celesteela gets hit by super effective moves anyway.
 
2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.

With at least B- in OU Viability or CAP; Here is what CAP23 has an advantage with on Typing Alone. [Apologies in advance if I misplaced anything]

i. STAB Advantage
Mew, Medicham (Mega), Alakazam (Mega), Gallade (Mega), Jirachi, Reuniclus, Slowbro (Mega), Alakazam, Aurumoth

ii. Defensive Advantage (Resist Their STAB; No SE in return)
Volcorona, Toxapex, Keldeo, Tangrowth, Venusaur (Mega), Suicune, Alomomola, Amoonguss, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Serperior, Manectric (Mega), Pyroak, Arghonaut, Krilowatt, Mollux, Volkraken, Plasmanta

iii.
Mutual STAB Advantage (SE Against each other)
Zygarde, Garchomp, Latios, Tapu Lele, Gengar, Kingdra, Kyurem-B, Latias (Mega), Marowak-Alolan, Hoopa-U, Latias, Charizard (Mega-X), Dragonite, Salamence, Revenankh , Kitsunoh, Cyclohm, Necturna

iv. Neutral (No SE against each other, at least one STAB is Neutral)
Landorus-T, Celesteela, Dugtrio, Heatran, Charizard (Mega-Y), Ferrothorn, Pinsir (Mega), Chansey, Pelipper, Scizor (Mega), Skarmory, Zapdos, Gyarados, Heracross (Mega), Kartana, Lopunny (Mega), Magnezone, Mantine, Swampert (Mega), Tornadus-T, Excadrill, Gastrodon, Hawlucha, Nidoking, Terrakion, Camerupt (Mega), Thundurus, Fidgit, Stratagem, Tomohawk, Cawmodore, Naviathan, Crucibelle

v. Disadvantage (Resists/Immune to At least one STAB and no weakness to another; and/or Also Threatens with SE with no weakness in return)
Magearna, Greninja, Greninja-Ash, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, Diancie (Mega), Mawile (Mega), Tapu Koko, Sableye (Mega), Tyranitar, Tyranitar (Mega), Bisharp, Tapu Fini, Weavile, Mamoswine, Mimikyu, Ninetales-Alolan, Togekiss, Altaria (Mega), Azumarill, Sharpedo (Mega), Syclant, Colossoil, Voodoom, Malaconda, Kerfluffle

i. CAP23 can more then likely threaten immediately, so trapping them is rather pointless. They are also probably not staying in against CAP23.
ii. Are the Pokemon that if we do trap we can easily set up against, though no one is going too stay in realistically.
iii. Same as i., but they also threaten CAP23 making it even worst to stay in with them.
iv. and v. are going to be the Pokemon people send in to check/counter CAP23 and are the ones that we are going to want to trap on a good read. CAP23 can potentially stay in on defensive iv. such as Ferrothorn, Celesteela or Chansey; but CAP23 is going to want to switch out immediately on any v. and send in their respective check/counter.
 
2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.

Other mons that should threaten Cap23 are dark types that has the move pursuit such as colossoil, weavile, and bisharp. They are a huge threat for cap23 because if the pursuit trappers get a free switch it can go for pursuit and do lots of damage if it switches. It is ironic how cap23 gets trapped by pursuit trappers. If cap23 traps the pursuit trapper with a move, it won't really matter unless cap23 has coverage against dark types because cap23 will get pursuit trapped either way.
 
3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet, but I'm going to state the obvious here. We have to consider the possibility of CAP's presence causing a shift towards Normal pokemon as checks/counters due to SS immunity. They shouldn't be too hard to work around, but would require other trapping moves for our CAP to effectively live up to its concept. The need to vary movesets to account for that might actually work in our favor, upon further thought.
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

Looking at the current OU and CAP tiers, bulky Regenerator mons like Tangrowth and Toxapex (in addition to some more niche ones like Slowbro and Amoonguss) look to be good targets for CAP23 to threaten. Regenerator cores are very strong currently due to the overall bulk of these mons combined with the ease of which they can recover health without losing momentum. Considering that momentum has slowly gained more value with each generation, having CAP23 be able to effectively halt some of the defensive momentum mons would provide it with an interesting niche, without having the same counter-play issues as Dugtrio.

Interestingly, these mons are seen on Balance and Stall a lot, so CAP23 could end up being a very strong offensive support in the same vein as Magma Storm Heatran, albeit with slightly different targeting.

2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.

Bulky Pivots (Tomohawk, and slower Volt-Turn core mons (i.e. Magnezone, Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Scizor-Mega, Jirachi).

Momentum cores are incredibly powerful these days, and providing the ability to strategies that don't utilize as many pivots of momentum mons to shut down these cores, especially on bulkier teams can give windows for very slow stall teams, hyper-offensive teams, and even some linear strategies like Trick Room or weather, thus providing them more viability.

I think that slow Volt-Turn mons are incredibly strong and valuable, but also take away some amount of skill when talking about counter-play and switch ins to very strong attackers. Slow-turning makes predictions matter less when trying to get certain counter-mons onto the field. This is why strategies like Shedinja+Dugtrio created degenerate synergies when slow Baton Pass was still legal. I think CAP23 being able to pushing slow, bulky pivots would help introduce more counter-play for other slower strategies against wall breakers and Dugtrio.


3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

Fast U-turn and Volt Switch (and Parting Shot) mons, Pursuit users, faster or bulky Ghost-types. Ghost types obviously because they can free-switch out of a trapping move, but they are threatened by Ghost STAB from CAP23, so selective Ghost types should be able to check CAP23 based on how viable they are to begin with. Faster U-turn and Volt Switch mons should be able to check CAP23, as they don't create the same kinds of degenerate, skill reducing interactions as slower pivots. Pursuit users I think should be checks based on the ability to potentially switch into CAP23 (possibly on a resisted ghost-type move) and punish it with either strong or super-effective STAB (Tyranitar, Weavile, Bisharp, Colossoil), or by Pursuiting on the switch.


Side Note:
With CAP23 being a Ghost/Dragon type, I would assume the trapping move of choice would be Spirit Shackle. This being the case, a big counter would be Normal-types who would be immune to the trapping move of choice. Would CAP23 have more than one trapping move? If so, what would it be, and if not, do we want CAP23 to not be able to play it's role against Normal-types, especially given how strong trapping is against mons like Chansey, Blissey, and Porygon2.
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

The most obvious targets are Regenerator mons and Tomohawk, as most of the other contributors have pointed out. I think it's also heavily important that we be good against Mollux, Tapu Bulu, and Cyclohm. The goal of CAP is to take out a mon that would otherwise stop a sweep; Mollux stops Water types from sweeping, Tapu Bulu is problematic to sweeps from Ground types like Zygarde, and Cyclohm stops physical attackers and Cawmodore in particular from sweeping. Much of the success of this CAP is probably going to depend on its match-up against these three mons

There are a few other mons it would be nice to beat. While we can't actually trap Chansey, Chansey literally can't touch us behind a Sub and stops special sweeps, so that's also a good mon to smack. Arghonaut is a huge issue for sweepers between Unaware, Circle Throw, Scald, and Knock Off, as well as spinning away hazards needed to facilitate sweeps.

3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

Volt Switch, U-Turn, Parting Shot, and the Pursuit+Sucker Punch combination should both be very good against trappers, as they punish CAP23 for attempting to itself switch after the trap. Colossoil boasts Sucker Punch, Pursuit, U-Turn, and to top it all off, Guts, so that even burning it doesn't play around Soil. If CAP23 isn't at least checked by Colossoil, then CAP23 is probably just thoroughly broken. Kerfluffle has Parting Shot to switch out, and you probably don't want to risk a trap on its Moonblast anyway, so that should at least check. Steel types should probably hard counter us, as they carry Shed Shells and resist our hardest hitting STAB moves. I would, however, like to see at least some allowance to let CAP23 beat Skarmory, whose Whirlwind is an issue to set-up based teams. Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar could shift to using Pursuit if CAP23 ends up being popular, and it should probably go down to those two, as although both are really bulky, they don't actually punish sweepers all that much. Bisharp is probably the best hard counter to CAP imaginable. It has Pursuit, Sucker Punch, resists both STAB, and has the potential to carry either Shed Shell to dodge the trapping or a Lum Berry to punish you for playing around Sucker Punch with a status move. Tapu Koko could probably check CAP23 depending on the Koko's moveset. If Chansey wasn't the only Normal type that wasn't complete garbage in the tier, I would say Normal types can actually avoid Spirit Shackles and threaten us by being immune to the Ghost STAB, but that is sadly not the case. Fidgit is atually super annoying, as it can slow U-Turn out of the trap after setting a Trick Room.
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

TOMO. Tomohawk is all I truly care about right now. It is a fucking hellish nightmare of a bulky CAP and rules the entire fucking metagame thanks to its priority healing and its uncanny ability to stop any setup sweeper dead in its tracks. Trapping moves easily force it into a tight spot, as it either has to start running Shed Shell and risk losing to other physical attackers or pray with Hurricane. Even then, there are a huge list of options we can give to CAP23 to get around Hurricane and just completely screw it over. Another thing is that CAP23 is immune to one of Tomohawk's STAB moves, meaning it has less options to handle it. Because of its huge presence on the metagame, of we do not work to threaten Tomohawk, it will be a major issue. Without specific elements of CAP23 targeting Tomohawk, it won't give a shit about being trapped. When we trap something if we do not beat it, we have to switch out, but we get to do so knowing they cannot switch, so we get whatever matchup we want. And if, as part of trapping, we did a decent chunk of damage, the opponent must either recover right away (making our switch even freer), or risk being forced out while still at reduced health, making it harder to come back in later. Tomohawk, on the other hand, can heal with priority, meaning that, were we not to beat it, it wouldn't need to bother healing right away, since, so long as it is alive, it is almost guaranteed to be able to heal. As such, it is more likely to do something other than heal if it forces us out, making the "free" switch less free than against other bulky mons. Since that is more of a threat to the concept of a good trapper than most other generic bulky Pokemon it would be better for us to just be able to defeat it so that it will not be forcing us into such a situation at all. Pokemon like Toxapex and Tangrowth aren't as big of a deal to me because if we trap them, we cut off a major form of recovery for them in Regenerator. This means that we pretty much get to choose a matchup if we don't beat them as they are either going to use Recover or U-Turn on Toxapex and Tangrowth respectively. This means they can't relliably stop the matchup we want from happening to come to be. As such, while I think we should absolutely not want to be walled by those two, I don't think they're as big of a deal as people are making them out to be.
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

I would argue that because of the typing we've chosen, Spirit Shackle seems to be the most obvious trap move we will wind up utilizing. Since the spirit (heh, pun) of this move requires our mon to be a lure to fulfill the concept, I'd like to use Magma Storm Heatran as a model of how a lure trap mon works.

Heatran is a special attacking fire type with a variety of niches, but the way it works as a lure is that can beat things that ought to beat it. Special walls like Chansey and Toxapex drawn to absorb its fire STAB are beaten through the use of Taunt to prevent healing and coverage moves like Earth Power. Defensive water mons, like Tapu Fini and Rotom can be beaten use of Z Bloom Doom. Heatran works as a lure because it beats things that SHOULD beat it. CAP23 needs to work in a similar way.

It bears noting that Ghost, like Fire, is a fairly splashable attacking type. However the difference is that while Fire hits many types for SE damage, Ghost is more of a neutral coverage move, so it needs to hit hard enough neutrally so that it draws defensive mons to it.

Conversely, look at Decidueye to see what a bad trapper looks like. 107 base attack and low speed, coupled with a bad defensive typing doesn't force switches, and even when it does, it doesn't have the tools it needs to kill things which it draws.

So assuming Spirit Shackle doesn't hit like tissue paper, lets analyze what sort of mons that might WANT to switch into 23, so it can function as a lure:

----------------

Fairies (immune to Dragon STAB), like Magenera, Clefable and the Tapu's minus Lele
Dark types (resist Ghost, can hit for SE damage) like Colossoil, and Pursuit trapping ones like Tyranitar
Bulky Steel types like Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Cawmadore, Ferrothorn and Celesteela, which can tank its hits and set harzards, Leech Seed, boost or whatever
Physical walls, like Landorus and Tomohawk, which can tank neutral hits
Normal types with suffecient bulk (immune to Ghost STAB, and therefore immune to being Shackled) like Status Chansey
Bulky water types which can tank hits, like Argonaught and Suicune
Regenerator pivots like Toxapex and Tangrowth, which are common and generally trouble for an offensive mon you might want to wish to pair with CAP23.

It is from this pool of mons that CAP mon must lure to be effective.

Personally, to make its mark on the meta I would like it if CAP had a tool set able to trap and kill Landorus and Tomohawk, at they are the most blatant physically defensive pivots centralizing to the meta. I also feel hitting Steel types and Regnerator mons to be equally important, as dismantling defensive balance cores and stall cores is what a trap lure ought to do to begin with. Spirit Shackle naturally prevents Regenerators' natural ability to pivot, making Tangrowth lure bait to it, and Toxapex above to be worn down with Taunt.

I feel Chansey is less of an issue for CAP, despite not being able to trap it, because CAP23 is immune to Seismic Toss and should be able to hit hard enough with a dragon STAB.

2. What other Pokemon should CAP23 threaten? Explain why and how it can relate back to trapping moves. Keep in mind this can be non-bulky Pokemon as well.i

Dragon/Ghost STAB has tremendous neutral coverage which should be enough to threaten offensive mons that do not invest in bulk. Defensively the typing has a wide breath of handy resists, which it should be able to take advantage of. If given sufficient bulk for switching in to offensive mons such as Keldeo, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Volcorona, Tapu Bulu, Serperior, Volkraken, Krillowat, Plasmanta, Pyroak, Luminoth etc, CAP 23, this would be very handy for a lure, it should force out these offensive mons to draw in defensive threats, which it is meant to lure. The fact that all these mons are Ghost neutral means that they won't enjoy being hit with a sufficiently strong Spirit Shackle, but defensive mons won't like it either as they are susceptible to being trap killed.

One other point I'd like to make is that CAP23 sports a handy resist to both Water and Fire, making it prone to switch into burning moves like Scald and Lava Plume. As I feel CAP should naturally counter Water and Fire types, and may find itself switching into defensive mons as well, I feel we will need to address this in the abilities stage.

3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

Dark types should be difficult for 23 to handle. After a successful trap kill, CAP will be extremely susceptible to being Pursuit trapped itself or getting revenged by Sucker Punch. This namely includes Colossoil, Tyranitar, Bisharp and Weavile. Defensive dark types are a threat too, as landing a Knock Off or Foul Play should be debilitating.

Faster Dragons, Ghosts, Ices, Darks, Fairies like Sycant, Mega Diancie, Kerfluffle, Greninja, Garchomp, L@tias and Gengar, while not able to switch in because of CAP's STABs, should be able to force it out after trap kills or via slow VoltTurns. CAP23 being immune to its own STABs makes for an interesting relationship with its fellow Ghosts and Dragons, that will create some engaging 50/50 scenarios. Do they set up on the predicted switch out and risk taking an SE hit, or do they set up on the predicting switch? Ah, the mind games will be fun... :)

Common Shed Shell mons like Skarmory and Toxapex are likely to give CAP trouble, which is ok, as they are forced to give up a healing item to run it. CAP should still have to tools to beat these mons though, provided they're aren't using Shed Shell, or get hit with Knock Off.
 
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3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?
Fairies, fast dragons, other ghosts, offensive Dark types could be a threat to the dragon as they can outspeed it or be immune to its attackings making the dragon in a doomed state. Same with the Shed Shell mons.
 

Deck Knight

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Ghost/Dragon typing is one that lends itself to a lot of checks but fewer counters, if we want this project to succeed. Ghost/Dragon types are inherently in the Checks category just by virtue of the typing, whichever is faster will prevail. It is actually pro-concept for CAP to have a lot of checks, as anything that checks CAP it can also Lure.

Ice Types: These are Mamoswine, Syclant, and Weavile who will basically be checks because they don't want to tank powerful attacks more than once.

Offensive Dark-Types: Bisharp, Colossoil, Greninja, Gyarados-Mega, Sharpedo-Mega, Tyranitar [Mega], Voodoom, Weavile
Bulky Dark-types: Colossoil, Malaconda, Mandibuzz, Muk-Alola, Sableye-Mega, Gyarados-Mega, Tyranitar [Mega]

Easily the greatest threat to CAP, especially Colossoil and Tyranitar because they are in both categories and have Pursuit. CAP should be able to threaten Offensive Dark-type Pokemon with Pursuit enough for them to become mostly CHECKS, but Bulky Dark types should COUNTER CAP in most situations.

Offensive Fairy Types: Azumarill, Diancie-Mega, Gardevoir-Mega, Kerfluffle, Magearna, Mawile-Mega, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele,
Bulky Fairy Types: Azumarill, Clefable, Gardevoir-Mega, Magearna, Mawile-Mega, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini

The second group of major threats. Mega-Mawile is notable for having an incredibly strong Sucker Punch, so it should serve as a Counter in most cases. CAP generally should be forced out by Bulky Fairy-types, and faster Offensive Fairies. Anchor Shot is a notable mention here as it is pro-concept and limits the checking ability of a few Pokemon that would otherwise be troublesome (and allows CAP to trap Chansey). Fairies that are neutral to Steel should be discussed on an individual basis.

Offensive Steel-Types: Bisharp, Cawmodore, Excadrill, Heatran, Jirachi, Kartana, Kitsunoh, Magnezone, Mawile-Mega, Metagross, Naviathan
Bulky Steel types: Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Magnezone, Mawile,-Mega, Metagross, Scizor-Mega, Skarmory

By and large, Steel's immunity to Toxic makes it difficult to wear them down with passive strategies. CAP should be able to threaten Steel types, with the only ones serving as checks or counters those specific Steel types with other advantages like Kitsunoh or Mawile-Mega.

Specific Pokemon CAP should threaten:

Chansey: Chansey should definitely be threatened by CAP so that Chansey fears a double-switch. Chansey should openly wonder whether CAP has Spirit Shackle or a different trapping move.
Landorus-Therien: As a premier pivot Pokemon, Lando-T is a Pokemon that should think twice before switching into CAP.
Mollux: Another difficult defensive Pokemon that CAP's typing specifically resists.
Pyroak: Pyroak's susceptibility to Toxic and CAP's inherent resistance to its common moves makes it an ideal target.
Tangrowth: It can't pivot and it's only threatening move is Knock-Off, which does reduced damage in CAP is holding a Z-Crystal
Tomohawk: The King of CAP, whose defensive set we should be able to handle even if the offensive one might give CAP trouble for not resisting STAB LO Hurricane..
Toxapex: Cutting off its access to Regenerator recovery is a great use of CAP's typing and trapping capabilities.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

- Dark types can deal heavy damage to CAP23 thanks to their supereffective Pursuit / Sucker Punch, allowing them to checking it easily. Also Bulky stuff with Foul Play can even counter it.

- Faster Fairy-type, Ice-type and other supereffective types can easily check CAP23

- VoltTurn + Shed Shell users can avoid the trapping effect
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

Tomohawk is the most common Pokemon in the meta right now, and if we want to threaten bulky mons, it's necessary that we at least don't outright lose against defensive sets. If Tomo is part of a core alongside one of our targets, then CAP23 is going to be unable to trap anything until Tomohawk is gone. Most of the time, this would render CAP23 ineffective at the worst time possible. However outright beating Tomohawk generates another problem, Why should CAP23 run a trapping move when it already breaks through one of the best walls in the game?

Therefore, I believe that CAP23 should only threaten Tomohawk when running a dedicated trapping set. This would give us an incentive to run a trapping move, prevents CAP23 from turn into a generic wallbreaker, as it wouldn't be able to run Choice set and deal with Tomo at the same time, and gives the opponent a reason to try to switch in Tomo in the first place, as it would be able to counter non-trapping sets

Chansey is a peculiar case, because it's immune to our best trapping move, Spirit Shackle, but the worst thing it can do is poison us, so as long as we can avoid that, we'll do just fine, it's not necessary to directly threaten it to force it out.

Some other passive walls like Toxapex, Tangrowth and Ferrothorn also make for good trapping targets, as they're unable do much to us, and can be beaten with the appropriate coverage, but we should try to make it so that CAP23 can't beat them all in the same set. Again, this would mean that the opponent gets an incentive to send something that could potentially get trapped, because there a chance that it'll beat us without the appropriate move.
 
1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?
We Actually Care About Beating:
Toxapex - Yay for cutting off Regenerator and denying recovery from nasty corsola-eaters. Good use of our concept and definitely beneficial for the team.
Chansey - We need to make Chansey at least have some doubts on switching in because it is immune to Ghost and overall stupidly fat.
Tangrowth - See Toxapex. We do love eating up pivots.
Tomohawk (maybe) - Overall just a bulky Pokemon that frankly we can't let be a reliable check, because it will tank CAP23's viability.
Landoge Therian - See Tomohawk's description. We just can't afford to be beaten by it if we want to have viability in our trapping shenanigans.

We Just Naturally Check:
Pyroak, Mollux, and Mega Venusaur - I just lumped these all together because they all share types and we want to beat them for a similar reason. Since we naturally beat Fire and Grass types thanks to our Dragon typing, we might as well take advantage of it. All of these are extremely strong defensive Pokemon in CAP.
Slowbro - See Toxapex. We do love tearing apart pivots. From what I've heard he's fallen in viability a lot, but we pretty much beat Slowbro regardless of what we do because of our Ghost STABs. So no worries, nothing special has to be done here.
RotomW - We like killing pivots, and naturally resist whatever Rotom-W throws at us thanks to the Water and Electric resists. Its a strong pivot that we want gone.
Zapdos - Strong pivot, usually runs Thunderbolt/VS with Hidden Power Ice, which has low base power, or with Heat Wave, which we resist. Either way we can easily pivot in even if we can't really trap it thanks to Volt Switch.
Marowak-A - We can pretty easily check Marowak-A by switching into a passive move or Fire attack and then force it around with our Ghost STABs. This one is a little more dicey though just because Marowak can pretty easily tear us apart if it lands a Ghost attack.

Depends on Speed Tier
I'll just make a big 'ol list here.
Dragon Types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Kyurem-Black, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard-X, and Latios/as.
Ghost Types: Revenankh, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, and Gengar.

Special Case: Arghonaut

We deal pretty well with the typing of these two, but it's a little dicey. Arghonaut has Ice Punch, Foul Play, Knock Off, and Punishment (Technician-boosted), which could probably dent us pretty hard if we decide to set up at all or just don't have significant bulk. I don't think Arghonaut really runs Foul Play or Punishment, but if we gave it a reason to, it probably could. So we'd have to trap it and kill it fast with coverage.

It seems to me like our best coverage options, just for future reference, are Electric, Psychic, and/or Flying. Just a thought. These hit most of our targets (Poison Types, Grass Types, and Water Types) super effective, with the exception of Rotom who we'll probably beat regardless and Chansey, which will need more specific moves to be beaten. This doesn't deal with Landoge though, who we'll have to give some thinking about.

The ones that we don't want to threaten are those bulky Pokemon that our typing doesn't have an impact on that we don't need to target. For example, this includes Mega Sableye, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Skarmory, and Tapu Fini. These might become checks or Pokemon checked by CAP23 depending on what coverage we get, but for now, they'd just be switching in to our Dragon type attacks or just in-general having a neutral matchup.

Deck already summed up our checks/counters pretty well, so I won't go into that much. I recommend to just read his post.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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1. Out of the bulky Pokemon mentioned in the Concept Assessment thread, which ones do we want CAP23 to threaten? Why are these the best Pokemon to target with trapping moves? Are there some we don't want CAP23 to threaten? Why or why not?

The first part of this question has been answered by a lot of people, so let me start off by addressing the last part of this question: yes. Yes, there absolutely are some bulky Pokemon we do not want to threaten, as being straight up able to beat every bulky Pokemon in the game is far too powerful of a niche that we don't want to be aiming for. Every pokemon should have some checks and counters. Acting like we can only have checks and no counters is a fool's errand, unless we are aiming to make the next Aurumoth (for those who were not around then, for Aurumoth we literally decided to go for a number of checks and no counters. It did not end well.).

So, our goal should be to look at the bulkier Pokemon of the metagame and pick out some that would make good counters, without ruining our viability. A few Pokemon immediately come to mind for this, including Arghonaut, Pyroak, Celesteela, Skarmory and Ferrothorn. A few others, such a Tapu Fini, Heatran, and Clefable would also be viable options. While I don't think we need to have every single one of these guys be solid counters, I think we need to severely limit how many we have the capability to break, especially if we are going to be aiming to take on guys such as Toxapex, Tangrowth, Tomohawk, Landorus-T and/or Chansey. In other words, I think we need to make sure that we don't have too much collateral damage with the methods we pick for taking on the Pokemon we want to beat, and selecting a few of the Pokemon I mentioned and choosing them as counters, and intentionally avoiding beating them is the best way to achieve this. Personally, I would choose the steel types I mentioned as the core of what we want to be counters, but really any of the mons from that group would be good choices.

3. Are there certain Pokemon that have an easy time against the trapping effect? Should these Pokemon easily check or counter CAP23? Why or why not?

Yes, there are certain Pokemon that have an easy time against trapping. Obviously, that includes those with a pivoting move, that therefore do not care about being trapped. And additionally, any mon we do not threaten and who can make good use of the turn we take to switch out (setting hazards or whatnot) will not care that they are trapped. With regard to the pivoting Pokemon, I really do think we want to avoid letting them get in on us or threaten us too much, but... I do not think we need to avoid having them check us if we do get in. Their entire role is to threaten things and pivot out to keep up momentum, and I do not believe that we need to invalidate them to be successful. Rather, we simply need to pressure them a bit so that they do not feel like they can just come in on us with impunity.

As for the latter group I mentioned, those are precisely the kind of Pokemon that I think we should be having as checks, and are basically the mons I mentioned in the previous question. Guys like Ferrothorn or Skarmory who do not care too much about taking a minor hit and being trapped, and do not lose out too much on being unable to double switch, as there is something they can actually still do that is productive that turn. Making sure there are Pokemon like this is very important, and so long as they don't consist of all the top bulky threats in the game, we shouldn't worry about actually having solid counters.
 

Deck Knight

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I think to refine this down a little bit, we should talk about roles in addition to types.

Pivots: The biggest ones here are Landorus-T, Scizor-Mega, Rotom-W, and Krilowatt.
Rotom-W has few good options against CAP except Will-O-Wisp if CAP is physical so it's of lesser concern.
Scizor-Mega is a Pokemon whose U-turn we resist, but both Knock Off and Pursuit are threatening.
Lando_T has already been covered a lot but it has a questionable speed tier.
Krilowatt is the most interesting because it commonly runs Ice coverage. It doesn't resist either of CAP's STABs, but it's one of the few Pokemon bulky enough to take a hit and threaten back while also having the option to pivot.

Steel types, revisited:
Steel's resistance to residual damage is problematic and a few Pokemon stand out to me as threats CAP can't do a whole lot about, however Steel types are definitely something we should delve pretty deep into.

Counters:
Skarmory: It can Roost off damage and force CAP out with Whirlwind. It can't be poisoned either and has high resistance to passive damage. It seems like an ideal Pokemon to select as a COUNTER because once it is trapped, it will either Hazard or Whirlwind but not both, and the controlled switch is a great chance to use a partner like Magnezone.

Checks:
Bisharp: This one gets complicated because Bisharp is kind of slow, but it has Assault Vest sets and it's physical defense isn't too horrible. It's the only remotely viable Pokemon to resist both of CAP's STABs, so it should be a good CHECK and win against CAPs in most 1v1 scenarios.
DD Naviathan: The more offensive Naviathan set is an issue for CAP, and it can run Icicle Crash to cause CAP issues. Basically we need to keep an eye out for CAP's interaction with DD Naviathan because it's a matchup that can change quickly.
Kitsunoh: Notable for its great speed tier, Kitsunoh is inherently a check because if its own Ghost weakness so it's a Pokemon CAP has to play carefully around and vice versa.
Mawile-Mega: This Pokemon seems like an unavoidable CHECK based on the power of its Sucker Punch and its general resilience to passive damage. Like Bisharp it should be punishable when it selects wrong, but it's a fools errand to think Mawile is going to run in the presence of CAP.
Scizor-Mega: Any set without a Z-Crystal risks getting hit by a powerful Knock-Off followed by Bullet Punch, and the offensive Swords Dance variant is difficult to play around. Scizor has also been known to run Pursuit, which is boosted by Tech when CAP doesn't switch. Scizor-Mega also has Roost to recover like Skarmory, but it's more offensive applications require some thought to prevent it from being a blanket counter.

Should Threaten:
Celesteela/Ferrothorn: Unlike Skarmory, Celesteela and Ferrothorn's reliance on Leech Seed and Protect to heal is an incredible vulnerability, and since CAP is Ghost-type we have the option of Ghost-Curse if we so desire which does more damage than Toxic over the same number of turns. If not, partial trapping can put in work against Ferrothorn, Ferro hates Burn, or we can select coverage routes that don't coincide with threatening Skarmory above. Celesteela is also utterly neutered by Burn if it's running Heavy Slam, Air Slash has only middling power, and CAP resists Flamethrower.
CM Naviathan: The slower of Naviathan's sets should be a good target for CAP, as we resist Scald and should have methods to shut down Naviathan's other moves.
Excadrill: A very threatening offensive Steel-type that also partners with Tyranitar, a Pokemon that can give CAP heaps of trouble. Excadrill should not feel safe being in the presence of CAP, and as CAP blocks its Rapid Spin there's some openings CAP could use mid-battle.
Jirachi / Metagross: They're weak to Ghost STAB, so threatening these two Steel types is a light lift.
Kartana: Being able to bank on a Grass resistance to help us is great, however Kartana can deal with physical attacks so it's best to be aware of this interaction.
Magearna: It is pretty critical that we THREATEN Magearna. It's bulky, has several sets, and really can't be afforded the opportunity to set up on the Shift Gear Set.
Magnezone: As we resist Magnezone's Electric STAB and aren't weak to Flash Cannon, Magnezone should be a Pokemon that mostly just wants to pivot out with Volt Switch. Without a 4x weakness, Flash Cannon is the same strength as a Super-Effective Hidden Power. This is not to say CAP should be so bulky it happily switches in to Magnezone, but obviously if we predict Thunderbolt, going to CAP should be a viable option.
 
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Counters:
Skarmory: It can Roost off damage and force CAP out with Whirlwind. It can't be poisoned either and has high resistance to passive damage. It seems like an ideal Pokemon to select as a COUNTER because once it is trapped, it will either Hazard or Whirlwind but not both, and the controlled switch is a great chance to use a partner like Magnezone.

[...]

Should Threaten:

Celesteela/Ferrothorn: Unlike Skarmory, Celesteela and Ferrothorn's reliance on Leech Seed and Protect to heal is an incredible vulnerability, and since CAP is Ghost-type we have the option of Ghost-Curse if we so desire which does more damage than Toxic over the same number of turns. If not, partial trapping can put in work against Ferrothorn, Ferro hates Burn, or we can select coverage routes that don't coincide with threatening Skarmory above. Celesteela is also utterly neutered by Burn if it's running Heavy Slam, Air Slash has only middling power, and CAP resists Flamethrower.
I disagree with the idea of threatening Celesteela but being countered by Skarmory. If anything, threatening Skarmory, but being countered by Celesteela seems like a better idea, as Skarmory's bad Special Defense mean it fear even a weak super effective hit, while Celesteela has more balanced defenses that allows it to tank these kind of attacks. Also while Roost is better than Leech Seed, you're really underestimating it's power, as LS+Protect not only will heal Celesteela, but it will also deal 25% of damage to CAP23, meaning that I'd be easier to let a teammate handle it.
 

Deck Knight

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I disagree with the idea of threatening Celesteela but being countered by Skarmory. If anything, threatening Skarmory, but being countered by Celesteela seems like a better idea, as Skarmory's bad Special Defense mean it fear even a weak super effective hit, while Celesteela has more balanced defenses that allows it to tank these kind of attacks. Also while Roost is better than Leech Seed, you're really underestimating it's power, as LS+Protect not only will heal Celesteela, but it will also deal 25% of damage to CAP23, meaning that I'd be easier to let a teammate handle it.
While I suppose the Ghost typing makes it inevitable people will assume Spirit Shackle primarily, if CAP goes for Infestation as its trapping move, Celesteela's Leech Seed is basically nullified from the start. Skarmory can actually hard force CAP out with Whirlwind and, bad SpD or no, can easily handle non-STAB attacks from mid-grade special attackers. SpD Skarm is less relevant in CAP because of all the strong physical attackers, but the fact is Skarmory's Roost can outpace weak special attacks while Celesteela does not want to be forced into a situation where its passive healing is nullified and it can't switch. In fact, having a more offensive Sprit Shackle set and a more defensive Infestation set would be very pro-concept for a trapping and luring Pokemon.

Additionally, Leech Seed relies on the opponent's Max HP for recovering damage, and as CAP is immune to the primary form of fixed damage in the metagame (Chansey's Seismic Toss), there is no guarantee Leech Seed will even be effective healing. If Leech Seed is being used just for the passive 12% damage, CAP should be cleaning up against the target anyway. Put another way, partial trapping and status (Burn) eat away 18% health each action, while Protect + Leech Seed w/Leftovers only heals 18% only if CAP has Base 97 + Investment HP. Skarmory on the other hand can click the Roost button and recover 166 HP (50% HP). Skarmory also more commonly runs Shed Shell because it has the Roost option, where Celesteela really, really needs Leftovers for its passive recovery.

Celesteela is therefore a much easier target for CAP to trap and KO than Skarmory, even though Skarmory would take more damage from special attacks generally. Celesteela can be beaten without giving CAP super-effective coverage while Skarmory requires SE coverage to defeat. Skarmory is therefore a much more comfortable Counter to identify while being countered by Celesteela would actually impede the concept given partial trapping is so effective at circumventing its passive recovery mechanism.
 

snake

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Hi everyone! I'm making these lists purely based on the posts in this thread. This post aims to provide easy discussion points regarding targets, checks, and counters.

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Clefable, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, Chansey

CAP23 should target and pressure:
VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Magearna, Rotom-W, Krilowatt
Calm Mind Naviathan, Excadrill

CAP23 should be checked by:
Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Bisharp
Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard-X, Latios
Ghost-types: Revenankh, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A, Mamoswine
Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Malaconda
Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill

CAP23 should be countered by:
Skarmory, Tapu Fini

Of course, this list may look lacking, weird, or otherwise wrong, but that's why I'm posting it now. Please describe what changes need to occur with this list. During this CAP, the pokemon in the "target and dismantle" portion of the targeting section should receive more weight during future discussions of the project; whereas "target and pressure" will receive less weight.

Off the bat, I see lots of checks but only a couple of counters. Additionally, I see more "target and dismantle" than "target and pressure." If Pokemon need to be added, removed, or moved from one section to another, please describe why.

Additionally, I've wondered when Normal-types are said to rise up due to CAP23's presence. I would like to hear which specific Normal-type Pokemon that would rise and why they would.
 
Hi everyone! I'm making these lists purely based on the posts in this thread. This post aims to provide easy discussion points regarding targets, checks, and counters.

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Clefable, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, Chansey

CAP23 should target and pressure:
VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Magearna, Rotom-W, Krilowatt
Calm Mind Naviathan, Excadrill

CAP23 should be checked by:
Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Bisharp
Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard-X, Latios
Ghost-types: Revenankh, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A, Mamoswine
Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Malaconda
Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill

CAP23 should be countered by:
Skarmory, Tapu Fini

Of course, this list may look lacking, weird, or otherwise wrong, but that's why I'm posting it now. Please describe what changes need to occur with this list. During this CAP, the pokemon in the "target and dismantle" portion of the targeting section should receive more weight during future discussions of the project; whereas "target and pressure" will receive less weight.

Off the bat, I see lots of checks but only a couple of counters. Additionally, I see more "target and dismantle" than "target and pressure." If Pokemon need to be added, removed, or moved from one section to another, please describe why.

Additionally, I've wondered when Normal-types are said to rise up due to CAP23's presence. I would like to hear which specific Normal-type Pokemon that would rise and why they would.
1. Regenerator Pokémon (Toxapex and Tangrowth) should go to Target and Pressure. If we trap them but cannot defeat them, we get to switch out knowing they cannot switch out, allowing us to choose our matchup. As such, it really is unnecessary to dismantle those Pokémon (unless I am misunderstanding the dismantle portion in which case tell me).

I think Ice-types and Offensive Steel-types should become counters, but I can't quite put my finger as to why I want them to counter CAP23, so I am just going to throw it out there.
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
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CAP23 should be countered by:
Skarmory, Tapu Fini
I really have my doubts about Skarmory

How can CAP23 be countered by Skarmory? Skarmory could Roost stall CAP23 assuming it'd be physically based, but what can Skarmory do against it? Using Toxic? iirc, people prefer to use Spikes instead Toxic, and Counter would not work due to CAP23's typing, so the only thing Skarmory can do is phazing it (at least until I remember what it can do)

Weavile should be added to checks btw, both STAB threaten CAP23 a lot but it can't (in theory) go directly into its attacks due to Weavile's poor bulk
 
Hi everyone! I'm making these lists purely based on the posts in this thread. This post aims to provide easy discussion points regarding targets, checks, and counters.

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Clefable, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, Chansey

CAP23 should target and pressure:
VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Magearna, Rotom-W, Krilowatt
Calm Mind Naviathan, Excadrill

CAP23 should be checked by:
Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Bisharp
Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Dragonite, Zygarde, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard-X, Latios
Ghost-types: Revenankh, Chandelure, Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A, Mamoswine
Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Malaconda
Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Azumarill

CAP23 should be countered by:
Skarmory, Tapu Fini

Of course, this list may look lacking, weird, or otherwise wrong, but that's why I'm posting it now. Please describe what changes need to occur with this list. During this CAP, the pokemon in the "target and dismantle" portion of the targeting section should receive more weight during future discussions of the project; whereas "target and pressure" will receive less weight.

Off the bat, I see lots of checks but only a couple of counters. Additionally, I see more "target and dismantle" than "target and pressure." If Pokemon need to be added, removed, or moved from one section to another, please describe why.

Additionally, I've wondered when Normal-types are said to rise up due to CAP23's presence. I would like to hear which specific Normal-type Pokemon that would rise and why they would.
I would add Mega Sableye and Clefable to our counter list. The first one is immune to status moves like Toxic and Will-O-Wisp and can deal a good amount of damage to us with Knock Off. Clefable almost always runs Moonblast, and has the defenses to tank our STAB, so It can easily come in and force us to switch

I also agree with Victor S. Court, I don't see how we could successfully threaten stuff like Toxapex Zapdos and Ferrothorn yet still lose to Skarmory. Besides it can only Whirlwind us, as we are outright immune to it's most common offensive move, Counter, so CAP23 will usually win 1v1.
 
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