CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Now that we have gone over a basic list of threats to CAP 23, it's time for our Ability Discussion leader LucarioOfLegends to take over. Please pay very close attention to his posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

General Guidelines for Abilities and the new banlists are located in This Thread.
  • Custom abilities are banned
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:
Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power of Alchemy
Receiver
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy


snake_rattler's concluding post from Threats for reference:
Sorry for the delay! Thanks for a great thread everyone. Hopefully now, we have a better idea of how CAP23 will fit into the metagame. Remember, this list is a framework, not an absolute list. Future decisions might contradict this list a little bit, but not extensively. Please carefully review our final list!

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
a. Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos
If successfully trapped, these Pokemon will have a difficult time against CAP23, through CAP23's offensive coverage or utility.

CAP23 should target and pressure (Pokemon that have methods to escape CAP23 and should not threaten a healthy CAP23 AND offensive Pokemon that CAP23 naturally checks):
b. VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Volkraken, other VoltTurners whose coverage CAP23 resists
These are VoltTurn pivots we should not lose to. CAP23 has a general type advantage over these, so they should be pressured into switching out, rather than having a free U-turn or Volt Switch.
c. Offensive Pokemon: Excadrill, Volcarona, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Mega Charizard Y, Calm Mind Naviathan, other Pokemon whose coverage CAP23 resists
CAP23 should generally not lose to Pokemon whose moves are resisted: as such, these Pokemon should fear CAP23 to some degree.

CAP23 should be checked by:
d. Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Bisharp
e. Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A
These Pokemon have the coverage, bulk, or power to tackle CAP23.
f. Dragon-types: Zygarde, Mega Charizard X, Latios, Garchomp
g. Ghost-types: Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
These two types have a type advantage over CAP23, but the reverse is also true, so they are checks.
h. Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados
i. Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Clefable
These Pokemon have the bulk, super-effective STAB-boosted coverage, or other qualities to check CAP23.

CAP23 should be countered by:
j. Skarmory, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Tapu Fini
These Pokemon generally have the bulk to take on a Ghost-type STAB, resist or are immune to CAP23's Dragon-type STAB, and generally do not care about CAP23's trapping effect. Tapu Fini in particular blocks CAP23's ability to use Toxic.

I'm really happy with the discussions so far. See you in the Primary Ability thread!


- - - - -

CAP 23 So Far:

Typing:
Dragon/Ghost

Concept:
Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!

Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).

Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.

So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).

This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).

Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?[/SIZE]
Topic Leader: snake_rattler
Typing Leader: HeaLnDeaL
Ability Leader: LucarioOfLegends
Stats Leader: reachzero
Movepool Leader: cbrevan
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Alrighty, let's give CAP23 an Ability!

CAP23 has to get through some really bulky Pokemon for the "Target and Dismantle" section. At the moment, the ability to break through them could be an issue because a) we only hit them neutrally with our STAB moves and b) our most spammable moves have a generally low base power. So preferably, we need a good ability that can thoroughly and consistently take these Pokemon on. With that said, here are some starting questions:

What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?
 
What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

  • Stamina can easily spiral out of control once the opponent is trapped with all of the defense boosts, so I don't think that is a good idea.
  • Stakeout and Analytic are what I call "Soft-trapping" abilities. Technicially the foe can still switch out, but they would be pretty stupid to do so. Either way, these go against the concept as since they make it impossible to safely switch, there would be no point in running the trap move.
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

  • Intimidate is an interesting ability, as it can force physical attackers like Tapu Bulu and Arghonaut (who we are checking and countering respectively) out and give us a free turn even if we can't safely trap them (Arghonaut has Ice Punch so).
  • Defiant is very cool, as it scares the daylights out of Lando-T switching in and Zapdos clearing hazards and the five Intimidate Tomohawk. If TrapCAP switches in on these two scenarios which are imo rather realistic, it gets a boost in attack and wipes the field. At the same time, Tomohawk still exists so it isn't like it will be able to destroy entire metagame after a boost.
  • Aerilate is something we can look into as well, as it eats up Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur and Arghonaut. It also combined with Toxic handles Tomohawk once trapped. However, that assumes base 130 attack stat, so I don't think we want to box ourselves into a corner.
    • 252 Atk Aerilate Garchomp Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 206-244 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • I also agree with Liquid Ooze and Tough Claws. The former stops Leech Seed in its tracks, which is cool. The other makes Anchor Shot actually possible! Also, it could also make Shadow Claw more appealing than Spirit Shackle. In terms of Outrage, we could always not give it that as competitive comes before flavor.
 
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What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?
Someone mentioned Corrosion on PS! and I just wanted to say that that is completely anti-concept. Not only does it beat Skarmory, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn, but it also forces CAP23 to be defensive and stall-y to beat what would at that point be "so-called counters", both of which are starkly anti-concept.


E: Lemme answer this one too:
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?
I'd like to propose Sheer Force or Tough Claws, as the former allows us to power up Zen Headbutt, and the latter allows it to also boost Psychic Fangs. This boosted Psychic coverage allows us to beat Tomohawk, Mega Venasaur, Mollux, Toxapex, and Arghonaut, which are literally all but 3 of the mons we want to be able to dismantle. Strong Jaw is also an option for Psychic Fangs, but I personally feel that it would be more suited to a Pokemon that relies on more than Bite-like move.
Double E: Oops Sheer Force removes trap effect, but Tough Claws also boosts Anchor Shot!
 
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What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Mons on the dismantle list may try to apply coverage to try and regain the advantage, so I'd say Anticipation may be a useful skill to have. There's also Adaptability if we want to take out the dismantle list on STABs alone and thus gear potential coverage towards the pressure list.

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

Definitely Corrosion like stated above, but also the fact that we decided on trapping via moves makes Steel Pull and Arena Trap anti-concept.
 
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What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

One ability I think could be helpful for CAP 23 is Infiltrator. When dealing with certain mons that it wants to defeat, a Substitute or even screens could end up tanking its ability to do so. Depending on how strong or fast we are, CAP 23 might encourage mons to throw Substitute on their to easily dodge this mon's Toxic or even take advantage of CAP 23 being unable to break it. Infiltrator just seems like a safe bet, but this depends on our stats.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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There are three abilities I particularly like for this concept, and a fourth one that is tangential but interesting:

These first three address the first question:

What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Liquid Ooze is a direct way to punish the several viable Leech Seeders in CAP (Pyroak, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, M-Venu, Necturna). It has an amazing punishment effect with trapping because once seeded, the seeder does not want to remain in having its health drained at the same rate as CAP. Additionally, when combined with Infestation and comparable HP, a Partial Trapped, Liquid-Oozed target loses 25% HP passively a turn.

If you combined Infestation and Ooze with Ghostium-Z and Ghost Curse, it would be 50% HP passively a turn (provided CAP would be alive after Cursing or Z-Cursing rather than sacrificing itself). If you just used Protect you'd shred away another 25% of their health, granted you would still be losing your own. Basically, Liquid Ooze turns a number of bulky wall Pokemon's chief healing and stalling strategy into a threat for the entire opposing team. It is a great way to remove Ferrothorn and Celesteela from counters without affecting other bulky mons. Yes, this would change the framework of our counters list, but I think it is so cohesive with the concept that it's worth exploring.

Synchronize is usually useless because if statused an opponent can just switch out to a cleric. For obvious reasons, both catching a bulky Toxic user or threatening to trap one that isn't immune to Toxic itself provides a significant amount of pressure. You won't want to switch a wall whose primary means of addressing CAP would be status, and opponents will be hesitant to switch out if CAP could make use our if trapping what's in front of it instead. Even though it can switch out with Volt Switch, Defensive Zapdos really does not like being inflicted with Toxic, and for threats like Pyroak that might Burn cap but are immune to burn, they can still be Toxic'd.

Defiant punishes two particular threats in CAP: Lando-T and Kerfluffle's Parting Shot should you catch it using the move. Kerfluffle is dangerous because of Moonblast, but nonetheless getting +3 Attack from it for a good predicting is frightening, especially since it probably can't switch in afterward and tank the +3 hit.

Finally, Tough Claws. Spirit Shackle is not a contact move, Anchor Shot is. Tough Claws would reduce the damage differential between them, and it's a boost Unanware (on Clefable) cannot block. In addition to that it also makes Shadow Claw and Phantom Force much stronger physical STABs than Shackle (a desire that was somewhat expressed in earlier threads) and also makes Dragon Claw more competent as a main STAB. The drawback here is it makes Choice Banded Outrage insanely strong, and depending on Attack stat TC Outrages can overwhelm even Tomohawk. Tough Claws has one other drawback in that it doesn't boost Z-Moves, so it's not as synergistic with the concept as we might like.

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

Corrosion and Sheer Force seem like the two best examples. Corrosion with this typing makes it very easy to just click Toxic on any good matchup (many) because you'll hit something with it. Sheer Force removes the trapping effects of Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot in exchange for more damage. While this might be cool, it strikes pretty hard against what the concept is going for and your opponent will see they aren't trapped afterward.
 
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What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

.Clear Body: Intimidate users like Landorus-T use the ability to lower the attack of physical attackers. Spirt Shackle and Anchor Shot which are being discussed are both Physical moves that will lose damage and would easily let Lando set up with swords dance and finish off CAP 23 with a Z-Fly


.Magic Guard : Users like Toxapex and Pyroak do damage to opponents by either poisoning or burning the opponent and wear it down. Users like Arghonaut and Toxapex are able to set up with Spikes and Toxic Spikes and can hurt CAP 23 if it switched from another pokemon. Pyroak, Mega Venusaur, and Tangrowth all have leech seed which they can use to drain health.

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

Definitely Stakeout as mentioned above i believe. If a mon tries to switch before it's trapped. It'll do double the damage
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Since some of these Pokemon in the list aim to remove your HP with status moves, Magic Guard can help CAP23 to deal with them more easily, allowing it to don't worry about Leech Seed and Sludge Bomb secondary effect.

Defiant allow CAP23 to deal better with two VoltTurn users in particular: Landorus-T and Kerfluffle. The first cannot enter unless it has a direct way to defeat CAP23, the second can still check it but without the possibility of spamming Parting Shot.
CAP23 has to get through some really bulky Pokemon for the "Target and Dismantle" section. At the moment, the ability to break through them could be an issue because a) we only hit them neutrally with our STAB moves and b) our most spammable moves have a generally low base power.
I'm not sure if this is really a problem, since we can adapt the CAP23 stats, but Adaptability can resolve this

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

While Corrosion can help CAP23 to deal faster with Toxapex, Mollux and Mega Venusaur, this ability also allows it to cripples all its Steel-type counters
 
Hey guys! I'm kind of new here to CAP, and I'll try my best to provide some interesting discussion.
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

I heavily support the aforementioned Synchronise and Liquid Ooze, as they punish status / Leech Seed respectively, Magic Guard and Tough Claws are also intersting and have my support as well.

As for my suggestions, I feel Poison Heal can be interesting to keep CAP 23 healthy and reliably check what it has to, aditionally it also makes CAP 23 immune to status when holding a Toxic Orb.; on the other hand, maybe this one might be too good, but I guess we can just balance it out in the stat distribution phase. Poison Heal helps CAP's matchup against most Pokémon it should check / counter, and it is just a really fitting ability for the concept we're going for here.

Pressure is also cool, helping CAP win PP Stall battles against Toxapex, Mega Venusaur, Mollux and what not, allowing CAP to pull a VinCune like set. It may not help that much on against Pokemon that don't rely on recovery moves but it is still nice to have I guess.
 
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What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Since we have several Leech Seeders on our target list, Sap Sipper instantly comes to mind. You can trap a Grass type and prevent it from being able to click Leech for some chip before it hits the grave.

Natural Cure is also tempting given how many of our target use status. Since trapping as a way to get a safe pivot, an ability that both supports pivotting and removes status is really nice.

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?

I've heard buzzing that Poison Heal might be a good fit to give us an out to status and heal CAP, so I'm going to get my two cents out about it. Frankly, it's way too good. The other Poison Healers have quad weaknesses to balance out the fact that they can Sub+Protect opponents and grind their PP to nothing. CAP not only has no quad weaknesses, but incredible typing for it's metagame. We would just wall everything including our counters without either paper-thin defense or Crabominable levels of bad speed
 
I've been thinking about this awhile, and I'm going to agree with Poison Heal for consideration. This ability allows CAP do perform many useful functions as a trapper.

1. Remain healthy as it switches into things it checks and tank the hits it's supposed to, force out the offensive threats it checks, and lure the mons it's meant to trap.

2. Frees up a recovery move. Without passive healing, CAP won't sustain enough hits on repeated switchins without using a healing move, a vital turn which it should be using to trapping move and fulfil it's concept.

3. Avoid status. Heatran offers a unique niche defensive option (being Steel type immune to Fire) and this trapper needs a defensive niche as well. Avoiding status, especially burn, is important for its concept, because 24 is supposed to switch in to Fire and Water types, which are prone to using moves like Scald and Lava Plume. Since our mon is likely to be a physical attacker (Spirit Shackle, Anchor Shot being likely and being checked by Skarmory all indicate this). As such, having our mon being neutered by burns is quite anti concept for switching in to mons like Toxapex and Mollux.

4. Give it a viable role as a Toxic stall trapper (or possibly Curse trapper) with Protect and/or Substitute. This strategy has a lot of potential in helping CAP beat its targets (including Landorus and Tomohawk) despite being a physical attacker.

5. Be threatened by dark types. Getting hit with Knock Off becomes even more of a threat if CAP looses its Toxic Orb before it activates, which is quite debilitating.

6. Tapu Fini is a counter. Having Misty Terrain on the field prevents its Toxic Orb from taking effect.

Likewise, I'd also support Guts for similar reasons, as opens up many for item options like an Assault Vest or Flame Orb set, or even Choice Items.
 
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Although using Sap Sipper, Magic Guard, or Liquid Ooze allows us to more easily beat Tangrowth, Mega Venasaur, and other Leech Seed users, it also changes Pokemon that should counter CAP23, namely Celesteela and Ferrothorn, into Pokemon countered by CAP23, which I think is a bad idea in general. I feel gearing our ability towards beating Leech Seed users is a bad path to go down, and something like Tough Claws would make a lot more sense.
 
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Abilities like Tough Claws and Adaptability could most definitely help it break through those defensive walls/pivot. Tough Claws could be highly beneficial, since CAP23 will likely be more physical, making both its STAB and physical coverage stronger. While Adaptability doesn't get the boost to physical coverage, CAP23's STAB moves would pack quite a punch.

We could also go abilities like Magic Guard or Synchronize help deal with the status that usually comes with defensive walls and pivots. Magic Guard is probably the stronger of the two, since it grants immunity to entry hazards and status. Synchronize could be interesting, but it doesn't work on a number of CAP23's targets, like Mollux, Pyroak, M-Venusaur, and Toxapex (if running Shed Shell, without it, it is still effected by burn). In addition, CAP23 would still suffer from the status ailments, severely hurting its ability to wallbreak, especially with burn.

Lastly, I would like to mention the idea of Sap Sipper. It would help fight pokemon like, Pyroak, M-Venusaur and Tangrowth, while also helping break those walls, thanks to the Attack boost. It could also help shut down the recovery of certain pokemon like Pyroak, M-Venusaur, Tangrowth, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn, because it can eat Leech Seed. Lastly, it could further threaten Tapu Bulu, as its main STAB moves do nothing and it loses its sustain in Horn Leech.

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories

Corrosion
is just a bad idea, as it allows it to fight its steel type counters and encourages a more defensive play-style, which goes against the concept of a trapping wallbreaker. Sheer Force, while bettering its ability to wallbreak, removes the trapping effect from trapping moves, making it anti-concept. One that could also be problematic could be Regenerator, as it also encourages a more defensive set and could make it too strong, due to the amount of sustain.
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
I'm actually a bit concerned about Defiant by its interaction with Kerfuffle's Parting Shot, that'd put in a risky situation to Kerfuffle as a check, but helping to pressure Landorus-T it's actually a good bonus, so maybe it's not that bad after all, considering the most probable scenary is Kerfluffle uses Moonblast

Tough Claws and Adaptability are actually good suggests to help to dismantle the targets it wants to, but maybe Spirit Shackle gets maybe too good with Adaptability against Pokemon like Skarmory, which are being supposed to be counters, so I'm leading toward Tough Claws (it'd have really intersting interactions with Anchor Shot and Clefable)

Poison Heal is actually good, but we should be really careful with stats to make sure it can't be used defensively, if the risk is too high we could use Inmunity which accomplishes the same goal to avoid Toxic but it's a subpar option if we compare it with the previous abilities

I agree with Drew about Sap Sipper, Magic Guard and Liquid Ooze this will pressure Celesteela and Ferrothorn too much to consider them counters anymore

Also, I agree with Reviloja753 about Aerialite, that could pressure some of the targets we want CAP23 dismantle, but I want to point somethng now Aerialite was mentioned: Galvanize should be not used this would pressure too much to Celesteela, Skarmory and Tapu Fini to call them counters anymore.
 
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Quanyails

On sabbatical!
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What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

Analytic is the lesser of two evils (switch-boosting moves), since it punishes switching out of trapping and VoltTurn indirectly. We dismantle our targets by making the switch-in harder to survive. We could go with Stakeout if we want to play a more careful balancing game with ensuring our checks and counters are healthy if they switch in.

I give weak support Defiant as an ability that helps against our threatlist. It punishes Landorus-T's Intimidate and Defog, but my concern is that it doesn't help trapping directly. It does benefit from Kerfluffle's Parting Shot, but as a check, Kerfluffle should be switching in, not out. It won't be using Parting Shot if it's expecting CAP 23.

Immunity is a basic line of defense against Toxic that doesn't turn CAP 23 into a defensive behemoth like Poison Heal. I'm a personal fan of Toxic Boost to boost physical damage in exchange for taking a status condition, but I do understand it might not work so well for longevity.


What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

I have my concerns with Magic Guard and Liquid Ooze. These abilities reduce indirect damage by Celesteela and Ferrothorn, two of our counters. How will these two Pokemon counter us? Using attack moves? That doesn't sound effective.

I'd also like to ask what the rationale is for damage-boosting abilities with regards to trapping and when we don't know this 'mon's stats? Why can't we trap them and more creatively beat defensive Pokemon without sheer power? How do they overwhelm our targets but not our checks/counters?
 
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reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

There are actually very few ways for this CAP to beat Tomohawk without breaking the checks and counters list, but one of the best options is to have Aerilate, which would also help against Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, Arghonaut and Pyroak. Life Orb Double Edge coming off a good Attack stat would 2HKO Tomohawk pretty effectively, which few physical attacks can claim. Please note that if we don't account at least somewhat for Tomohawk in the Ability stage, it is one of the hardest targets to account for later; no single move will make beating it a given without Ability support. This isn't to say that other Abilities aren't viable options for checking the things that CAP 23 is meant to check better, etc., but I do want to bring up that if killing Tomohawk is a top priority, it's one we have to address now.

Tomohawk aside, I love Defiant for the way it changes the interactions for Landorus-T and the potential for threatening Mew and Zapdos.


What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?


Poison Heal is an Ability being brought up in this thread that would be pretty frightening on a trapper Pokemon, particularly one that is a Ghost. The capacity to trap things and stall them out would be pretty intense, unless the stats corrected heavily against it (which would basically negate the appeal of Poison Heal).

Magic Guard works for what we want to do (as always), but it's such a powerful and generalized Ability that I feel it should never be our first option for anything.

Corrosion is super good with trapping, but just dismantles our whole checks and counters list.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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im gonna push for a few abilities i havent seen yet and support some i've seen

typically speaking abilities we want fall unto one of three camps: letting us avoid status conditiosn which are pretty common on things we want to beat, help us stay alive so we can get the one good trap against things we wanna trap, or just outright hit super hard to help us either slaughter what we trap or back the opponent into a corner.

fuck status abiltiies
Guts fuck status the ability. lets us punish anything that dares to status cap 23 pretty hard, which is nice since a lot of the things we'd like to beat tend to bring status to play.
Natural Cure works well with a pivot role and is a more defensive option that lets us wipe the slate
Comatose is a more balanced version of magic guard, allowing us to completely dodge status conditions without being immune to life orb recoil etc.
Water Veil is a bit more narrow but being burned really hurts being able to kill things (and it's safe to assume we'll have a physical set since
Aroma Veil lets toxic sets do their job against bulky mons with taunt. Soundproof does much the same but adds in some random move immunities that arent super relevant.
Clear Body keeps us from fearing intimidate which is pretty cool since landoggie has intimidate


stay alive abilities

Regenerator helps with the pivot part of CAP 23 and helps it to remain a healthy boy since it'll probably do a good amount of siwtching in and out
Bulletproof lets us have more moves we can swap in on, most notably enabling us to defeat special ghosts.
Queenly Majesty allows us to dodge sucker punch and come in on predicted priority moves for free which is pretty cool!
Volt Absorb lets us shut down volt switch mons and get some hp for our troubles too.

hit like a dump truck abilities
Steelworker lets us use anchor shot and use it well.
Moxie lets us punish trying to sacrifice things almost dead instead of swapping to something we can use to pivot out of pretty badly.


i dont like these
Adaptability encourages spirit shackle spam, makes outrage incredibly deadly, and over-all serves to reinforce CAP 23's strengths, but in order to balnace it its off stab moves would probably be considerably weaker than they otherwise be, making it harder to have variety in sets thus i dont think this is a good idea.
Stamina is just bad frankly unless we were a stallmon, i mean sure there's the hypothetical "keep something in to bait +6 defense off of it" but i think that sjust a gimmick
Tough Claws is kind of just boring over-all and steelworker does a much better job of making anchor shot appealing.
Sap Sipper / Liquid Ooze lets us beat celesteela and ferro and...no? those are our counters.
aerliate/galvanize we could just give it a flying type attack or electric type attack later without giving up an ability......
magic guard does nothing against burn's attack drop or paralyze's speed drop/chance to fully paralyze. just not the right fit for CAP 23!
Corrosion beats steels so yeah nooo.
 
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S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Queenly Majesty seems good, but there are two troubles with this: Bisharp (a Pokemon we said checks CAP23) Will lose its ability to use Sucker Punch witch will add some troubles for it to check it. Same with Mega-Scizor, but I'm not sure how it'll check CAP23 in first place

You're a bit missing a bit the point here with Aerialite here, nyttyn

We chose the typing becaue it resist VoltTurn, has a good amount plethora or resistances and has two good ofensive typings to work around, so changing the typing of CAP to give it a Flying STAB would be counterproductive. Galvanize should be avoided thought, due to hitting Celesteela, Skarmory and Tapu Fini super effective, removing their ability to counter CAP23
 
Tough Claws is kind of just boring over-all and steelworker does a much better job of making anchor shot appealing.
I disagree with a lot of your post, but this part especially bothers me. First off, you start this part by saying it's a boring ability, which i think is an incredibly flimsy argument. Then, you imply that Tough Claws' only purpose is to make Anchor Shot more appealing, which, at least to me, it is not. Tough Claws allows us to hit bulkier Pokemon we want to check harder with coverage, i.e. dealing heavy damage to Toxapex and Tomahawk with Psychic Fangs or Zen Headbutt. This allows us to actually break bulky threats. Adaptability is similar but boosts STAB moves, although I agree it encourages Spirit Shackle spam and makes Outrage too powerful. Tough Claws on the other hand is reliant on our movepool which we can engineer to make more sense with our threatlist.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
Just a little question: why should we give to CAP23 a boosting ability like Tough Claws, when we could simply give it an higher Attack stat?
This could allow us to give it another useful ability
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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we can't change the type of CAP 23 at this point. I'm sorry if my post is confusing, I've edited it for clarity to specifically point out I'm talking about flying type attacks.

as for why tough claws is boring - well, we can just give CAP 23 a higher attack stat which would let it also be a bit more flexible with what moves it uses. For tough claws we have to adjust our attack with its boost in mind, which in turn means that the ghost STAB of this pokemon would be lagging behind its dragon STAB if we don't give it Shadow Claw. It also means that Shadow Claw would almost certainly be taken over Spirit Shackle due to the sheer power difference (functionally 91 BP vs 80), which is pretty undesirable for the concept.

basically it's boring in that it restricts our movepool and provides a almost otherwise unconditional boost in power which a higher attack rise would also accomplish without having to A) give up our ability and B) make our ghost STAB either much worse (a cap 23 without shadow claw) or jeopardize the concept (a cap 23 with shadow claw).

edit: hm aerilate is actually a lot better than i gave it credit for, it functionally gives us flying as a third STAB thanks to Return's BP being boosted to 122, which makes a smidge better than spirit shackle (which is functionally 120 BP).

i think that's probably worth consideration for an ability since having a flying STAB functionally with none of the downsides is pretty damn legit against stuff like tangrowth.
 
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Hoo boy, this CAP seems to bring strong opinions out of me. Let me just answer the questions first before going in on it.

~~~~~~~~~~​
What abilities work well with trapping moves while also being able to deal with the Pokemon listed under "Target and Dismantle?" Why do these abilities work?

I am a big fan of Toxic Boost and, to a lesser degree, Immunity and Flare Boost since they would help us deal with the status that a lot of our targets do like to throw around. Granted, Flare Boost assumes mixed or some Special bias. I rather liked Poison Heal but I agree with other posters in this thread that it may push us over the line and make stall too easy against certain 'mon. Magic Guard is an option, but it may make some intended counters like Celesteela and Ferrothorn struggle too much with us.

Defiant is interesting since, as Deck pointed out, some of the things we want to deal with do run Intimidate (notably Lando-T) and/or some form of stat-lowering abilities.

If the worry is CAP23's punching power, Adaptability may be able to fix that. I rather dislike Tough Claws, and will try to explain why without polljumping much later in this post.
~~~~~~~~~~​

What abilities should we avoid due to being "too good" on CAP23 or being anti-concept? Why do they fulfill one of these categories?
Stakeout
is a definite problem. It would create a constant lose-lose decision for the opponent, and would probably put CAP23 over the line in power because whatever switches in is gonna get hurt unless it switches into Spirit Shackle and is immune.
Trapping Abilities are obviously anti-concept since they would make trapping moves redundant, and Sheer Force would remove the reason we've been so focused in trapping moves to begin with. I also agree that Corrosion plus the matchups our typing grants may very well make CAP23 into just a Toxic spammer.

~~~~~~~~~~​

The Anchor Shot conundrum: I have been talking about this on Discord for the better part of two hours now, and it is my belief that Tough Claws is not a good idea. Mostly because with Tough Claws, I believe Spirit Shackle will become completely superfluous over Anchor Shot provided both are on the movelist and I don't think that's something we should do. If the movelist holds both Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle, they should be comparable options in my opinion and not one being outclassed by the other since not only would Anchor Shot be at worst comparable to STAB Spirit Shackle, there'd also be stronger physical Ghost-type STAB options. I believe that if boosting our moves is the priority, there are better options such as Adaptability, Toxic/Flare Boost, Guts, etc. which don't necessarily make the second option obsolete. (I admit, I have my doubts about Adaptability on this end)

The Aerilate situation: I'm not too convinced on this one. On one end, we are supposed to eat Tomo up completely alongside other Grass-types. On the other end, I'm not sure that warrants the offensive power granted by our neutral coverage plus 122,4 base power Flying Returns, which this CAP will have since everything gets Return. The offensive presence created by Outrage, our trapper of choice and this Return could easily get out of hand, though I haven't had the time to make hypothetical calculations for it.

As a parting comment, I'd like to point out that we'll probably have enough power to take our threats regardless of the ability since we probably will have access to Curse and stats aren't set yet.
 
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The problem I see with the "Why not just give it more attack" argument is the fact that all of CAP23's counters rely on bulk alone to beat it, and none resist Ghost-type, so if we just give it more attack rather than boost its attacks, it will probably be able to muscle through these checks nearly as well as it would beat something like Toxapex. Also although it would make Spirit Shackle a bit obsolete if we use Anchor Shot, we could always just not use Anchor Shot. Like Tough Claws make it seem more appealing, but just not including it would be a better solution, as including it in the movepool even without Tough Claws allows us to hit Fairy-types hard, something we may want to avoid.
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
A -Ate ability would be good, but maybe giving it such a good offensive coverage with Aerialite can be quite messy... Why not Pixilate?

Yeah, I know Dragon have to be a check, but with CAP23's Dragon STAB it'll dent them anyways, and Fairy is a type can be slightier easier to wall imo, and it threatens Tomohawk at same time
 
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