CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

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Dogfish44

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So I'm going to go squee over the Laser Focus set making it later.

For david's post on Laser Focus: Celesteela often runs Protect (although Leftovers + Leech Seed + Heavy Slam is enough to realistically survive and 2HKO anyway), Ferrothorn arguably was never a realistic counter (although using the specially defensive Ferrothorn as your example there doesn't help, vs. physical you're looking at 76.1% - 89.7%, which you're very rarely getting past on even just Leftovers, so the counter holds imo), Tapu Fini clobbers us with a Moonblast (It's probably closer to a check, but then other mons are much closer to being counters, such as Colossoil - as long as Ghostium-Z exists then this was always going to be the case for the same number of actions with SS - SS - Neverending Nightmare). Ghostium-Z also gives up the more generally stronger Dragonium-Z set, as well as using up the team's Z-Move, so I don't envisage this being a massive problem.

---

At this point it'd probably be in reasonably poor taste to post up some more movesets, but these were done about 30 seconds after cbrevan's post. Instead, I'm going to post slightly edited copies of my notes.

Trick
Trapping and Comatose give great opportunities for Trick Plays - especially with Choice Band and the Status Orbs - the former of which doesn't even need Trick to be viable in it's own right, and the latter of which doesn't negatively impact us thanks to Comatose.

I know Vann earlier raised the notion of Gothitelle. I can't say I agree with that assessment - if we're using a Choice Band, then we can't Trap then Trick - we can Trick then Trap, but then we're not unique in that aspect (With the exception that our trapping is a touch more permanent).

With that said, of all the moves I'm presenting, this one is almost certainly the most controversial on the matter of the moves I'd like to start set debates on, due to the relative strength of the set vs the mons which we want to counter us - although it doesn't stop most of our counters from dealing a lot of damage to us, it can leave them substantially crippled for the rest of the game.

I'd like to propose that we debate the Offensive Utility Set getting this slashed in, alongside Burn Orb, Toxic Orb, and Choice Band. Alternatively I guess a new set might be more worthwhile to avoid further Slash Soup?

Wish
Wish has a relatively understandable effect in the context of a trapping set - reliable but slow healing, which can also assist an ally.

I'd like to propose this being slashed into the SubToxic set next to Pain Split and Phantom Force, as an alternative measure that achieves similar goals.

Simple Beam Gastro Acid
This is a very targetted tech option that occured to me (actually when I was writing the Trick set). Specifically, it allows us to hammer down Guts Colossoil and Naviathan, as well as speeding up the matchup vs Tomohawk and Krilowatt. Whilst Gastro Acid provides +1 Speed in it's Z-Move, this does nothing but encourage some of our counters in anyway, and lowers our strength substantially.

(Above: Why we don't do our original proposals at 2 AM. Deck kindly reminded me why Simple Beaming a Naviathan does not hammer down the stat boost-using mon...)

Yawn (+Wake Up Slap)
Last ones, promise! Mainly because people have mentioned Yawn a couple of times on flavour and it's best to actually consider the competitive impacts *first*.

Yawn essentially locks down an opponent for 1-3a at the end of the next action - and due to the fact that we have trapping, the standard response of switching no longer applies.

... or does it? Yawn does another thing for us, in that it forces people to switch if they are able to do so. This makes Yawn a really effective pressuring tool before using a Spirit Shackle, since it forces an opponent to either switch to a second mon (And thus be trapped on what is likely a weaker response), or use their trap-breaker (Whirlwind, e.g.) and then be asleep.

The question then becomes 'what to do with the free actions'. We're obviously not running any form of long-term setup, so we'd be primarily relying on landing a hit - as well as surviving to reach the end of that action. I'd propose that once our target is actually asleep, we should be using something that's naturally going to deal a lot of damage - in my eyes, Wake Up Slap is a perfectly solid option here, as is just clicking Outrage and seeing who stops first - the effective free action means pokemon who's healing doesn't outspeed us lose a mechanism to stall us out.

In terms of viability, Yawn's main power is in forcing switches before the trap, and not in actually being particularly effective after the trap - giving your opponent two actions to respond likely means that you're going to have a KOed CAP23. Whilst Yawn helps vs our defensive targets, the slowness of the move means that it's not as effective, and has no post-trap effect on our offensive checks (Colossoil etc.), but at the same time worth having for the pre-trap phase. I'm going to propose that in the Offensive Utility set, Wake Up Slap be added in the Psychic Fangs slash line, and Yawn be added on the Toxic Spikes et. al slash line.
 
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I've trying to test CAP23 in battle, to test different moves on it. Particularly, I wanted to test if how well we do against Tomohawk. I've used a custom EV Salamence, I'll leave it here so anyone can test CAP23 should they want to:

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 236 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 9 HP / 13 Def / 0 SpA
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Dragon Claw
- Psychic Fangs
- Reflect Type

If I didn't screw anything, the stats should emulate CAP23 stats with 252 Atk/4 SpD/248+ Spe. Reflect Type is there just to copy the type of a Giratina, I don't really think that CAP23 should get it.

Here's what I got:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-651392162
Thanks to Rage.Spam.Quit. for helping me test this!

Even when fighting one on one, just with Toxic, Leftovers and a standard offensive spread, CAP23 beat Tomohawk, without needing to use Pain Split. I was already not a big fan of that move, as it gives us a way to recover health, but this now leaves me convinced that Pain Split is not necessary to beat Tomohawk.
 
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snake

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The problem of this set is that despite the removal of Spirit Shackle, we can easily add another trapping move like Anchor Shot or Infestation, bypassing it's initial purpose

This set easily stops the counters that don't have a strong recovery move:
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 289-342 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 306-360 (86.9 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 313-369 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
To be fair, Spirit Shackle's Never-Ending Nightmare is the exact same calc. If Shadow Bone were to really replace trapping sets, Anchor Shot would probably have to go, which might not be favorable. If you're running Shadow Bone / Laser Focus / Infestation to achieve the above situation, then I'd reconsider what set I'm actually running, but if it were Shadow Bone / Laser Focus / Anchor Shot, then you've got a set going. Regardless, Laser Focus takes up a turn to use, Celesteela has Protect to dodge around the damage, Tapu Fini is slowly being displaced to being a check, and Ferrothorn probably should be running more Defense than that.

If we're going to talk Shadow Bone, it's the Defense drop (20%, same as Crunch defense drop) and its interaction with Anchor Shot, not its Z-move because that's the same as Spirit Shackle.

-----

I've trying to test CAP23 in battle, to test different moves on it. Particularly, I wanted to test if how well we do against Tomohawk. I've used a custom EV Salamence, I'll leave it here so anyone can test CAP23 should they want to:

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 236 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 9 HP / 13 Def / 0 SpA
- Spirit Shackle
- Toxic
- Dragon Claw
- Psychic Fangs
- Reflect Type

If I didn't screw anything, the stats should emulate CAP23 stats with 252 Atk/4 SpD/248+ Spe

Here's what I got:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-651392162
Thanks to Rage.Spam.Quit. for helping me test this!

Even when fighting one on one, just with Toxic, Leftovers and a standard offensive spread, CAP23 beat Tomohawk, without needing to use Pain Split. I was already not a big fan of that move, as it gives us a way to recover health, but this now leaves me convinced that Pain Split is not necessary to beat Tomohawk.
I hope you didn't mean to leave on Reflect Type, which would be a less than stellar move to include on CAP23.

I just think it's odd that you didn't want to disprove the moveset under consideration with Pain Split given in it. On top of that, decided to go with a Leftovers max Atk spread, an item / stat spread combination hasn't really been discussed thus far and isn't included in the movesets under consideration at all. The implications of Pain Split + Brave Bird or something need to be discussed, yes. However, what you brought up with a very specialized, specific set that, from what you've said and supported in your post, doesn't do anything but beat Tomohawk 1v1, even leaving you at 18% health by the end of the struggle. Yeah, that one specific set beats defensive Tomohawk, but it requires Leftovers to do it. That's locking you out of a Life Orb. Or a Z Crystal. Or anything to boost your damage output. Not to mention that Tomohawk can start to run Substitute to dodge the Toxic (it's not that bad of a move to dodge Landorus-T's Z-Fly either. I think there needs to be lot more analysis on Pain Split than just this simulation, though it's a start.
 
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Deck Knight

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I'm of the mind that Anchor Shot is not necessary, Spirit Shackle and Shadow Bone are more than sufficient as lifted Sig moves. Infestation and Whirlpool can fill that void. For Steel coverage we could go for Smart Strike and / or Iron Tail.

The move I'm surprised has seen near-zero discussion is Will-o-Wisp. I even posted a WispyCAP set demonstrating it. It does make Excadrill, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela's lives much harder, although some of our other targets would prefer being burned to being Toxic'd.

I also really like Yawn for headgames with trapping targets, it's an excellent move to force your opponent to feel out their counters.

I'm also not too worried about one time speed boosts. Gastro Acid is much more effective than Simple Beam for our needs, it's better Z-Effect notwishstanding.

I suppose you could argue however that Simple Beam makes SD Mega-Sciz a much more frightening counter, but really we lure enough physical threats with boosters (Navi, Lando-T, Exca, SD Chomp is still a thing) we shouldn't be that eager to lure them in.
 

snake

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I'm of the mind that Anchor Shot is not necessary, Spirit Shackle and Shadow Bone are more than sufficient as lifted Sig moves. Infestation and Whirlpool can fill that void. For Steel coverage we could go for Smart Strike and / or Iron Tail.

The move I'm surprised has seen near-zero discussion is Will-o-Wisp. I even posted a WispyCAP set demonstrating it. It does make Excadrill, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela's lives much harder, although some of our other targets would prefer being burned to being Toxic'd.

I also really like Yawn for headgames with trapping targets, it's an excellent move to force your opponent to feel out their counters.

I'm also not too worried about one time speed boosts. Gastro Acid is much more effective than Simple Beam for our needs, it's better Z-Effect notwishstanding.

I suppose you could argue however that Simple Beam makes SD Mega-Sciz a much more frightening counter, but really we lure enough physical threats with boosters (Navi, Lando-T, Exca, SD Chomp is still a thing) we shouldn't be that eager to lure them in.
I'm not too big of a fan of Will-O-Wisp. Our stat spread means for our physical defense to be lower, and much of Celesteela / Skarm / Ferrothorn's ability to take us down are from their large yet unboosted damage outputs. If they're burned (note that they can't be hit by Toxic to avoid this), CAP23 beats them a lot faster. Additionally, Will-O-Wisp is an extremely tool against offensive checks, which I'm also not that big a fan of.
 
IMO, the only way I would be okay with the Shadow Bone AOA set is if we removed Anchor Shot. A non-trapping set isn’t something I am against, but Anchor Shot defeats the whole purpose of an anti-trapping set. Unfortunately, the Phantom Force set has Anchor Shot, so yea no thanks on the AOA set.

Also if someone could provide some calcs of Laser Focus against things that check or counter us, then I’d be okay with that one too. I’m a little wary of it due to it potentially messing with our checks and counters, but some offensive and defensive calcs with them should suffice
 

nyttyn

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My biggest concern with Will o' Wisp is that it leads into CAP 23 having a set that simply checkmates any physical attacker, by sheer virtue of being able to both wisp and trap. Especially since it would mandate avoiding even Wish - as any sort of set with reliable recovery would mean CAP 23 suddenly can serve as either a wallbreaker or a death sentence to physical attackers, which is, um. A bit much? A bit much.
 

Deck Knight

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Since crits are a 1.5x damage multiplier, Lazer Focus is basically a one-time per use (before next attack) +1 Attack/SpA that breaks through defense boosts and screens. It has minimal impact on checks and counters because it is very difficult to use if you haven't already trapped and you're vulnerable the turn you use it too.

Assault Vest 3.0 Submission:

Moveset Submission

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Poison Fang / Sand Tomb / Infestation
Move 4: Iron Tail / Stone Edge / Earthquake
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

  • Spirit Shackle is a decently powerful STAB and allows CAP to trap everything except for Normal types.
  • Leech Life helps AV CAP to heal off damage it may have taken during a trapping turn. It provides a backstop to Dark-type checks and It can offset the damage from Pyroak's Lava Plume completely.
  • The third slot is a residual damage slot, utilizing either Poison Fang to fish for Toxic status, Sand Tomb to do Ground-type chip damage and partial-trapping, or Infestation for weak damage but unblockable partial trapping.
  • The 4th slot is a coverage slot. Iron Tail hits Fairies like Clefable hard, and its 30% defense drop effect helps the entire set if it activates. Stone Edge hits more targets, specifically Zapdos which needs to Roost to mitigate it. Earthquake can hit Zapdos on Roost if you catch it, and is also decent coverage with Dragon moves on other sets. It hits Bisharp and Excadrill the hardest of the listed options, as well as annihilating CAP's many 4x Ground-weak targets.
  • Maximum Attack to hit hard, 8 Spe EVs to outrun Max Spe Adamant Bisharp and other Base 70s.
  • Defensive EVs allow CAP to avoid a OHKO from unboosted Collosoil Sucker Punch and recover back substantial HP with Leech Life.
  • Set is specifically advantageous against Clefable (w/ Iron Tail), Tapu Lele, and can effectively wall and dismantle many special attacking threats.
The updated set doesn't have as much a hodgepodge of support effects, but it is much more focused on the purpose of each slot.
 
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Since crits are a 1.5x damage multiplier, Lazer Focus is basically a one-time per use (before next attack) +1 Attack/SpA that breaks through defense boosts and screens. It has minimal impact on checks and counters because it is very difficult to use if you haven't already trapped and you're vulnerable the turn you use it too.

Assault Vest 3.0 Submission:

Moveset Submission

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Poison Fang / Sand Tomb / Infestation
Move 4: Iron Tail / Stone Edge / Earthquake
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

  • Spirit Shackle is a decently powerful STAB and allows CAP to trap everything except for Normal types.
  • Leech Life helps AV CAP to heal off damage it may have taken during a trapping turn. It provides a backstop to Dark-type checks and It can offset the damage from Pyroak's Lava Plume completely.
  • The third slot is a residual damage slot, utilizing either Poison Fang to fish for Toxic status, Sand Tomb to do Ground-type chip damage and partial-trapping, or Infestation for weak damage but unblockable partial trapping.
  • The 4th slot is a coverage slot. Iron Tail hits Fairies like Clefable hard, and its 30% defense drop effect helps the entire set if it activates. Stone Edge hits more targets, specifically Zapdos which needs to Roost to mitigate it. Earthquake can hit Zapdos on Roost if you catch it, and is also decent coverage with Dragon moves on other sets. It hits Bisharp and Excadrill the hardest of the listed options, as well as annihilating CAP's many 4x Ground-weak targets.
  • Maximum Attack to hit hard, 8 Spe EVs to outrun Max Spe Adamant Bisharp and other Base 70s.
  • Defensive EVs allow CAP to avoid a OHKO from unboosted Collosoil Sucker Punch and recover back substantial HP with Leech Life.
  • Set is specifically advantageous against Clefable (w/ Iron Tail), Tapu Lele, and can effectively wall and dismantle many special attacking threats.
The updated set doesn't have as much a hodgepodge of support effects, but it is much more focused on the purpose of each slot.
All right then, Laser Focus is fine then. Thanks for clearing it up.

As for your moveset, I actually like this one a lot. Poison Fang and Sand Tomb are really cool options for CAP to have. However, my major concern is Earthquake. It has the potential to mess with every Steel-type check we have, and imo that is something we don’t want. If you could provide a good reason for it to be there or provide some calcs, I’d be okay with it. I’d get calcs myself but I’m on mobile :P
 

snake

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Since crits are a 1.5x damage multiplier, Lazer Focus is basically a one-time per use (before next attack) +1 Attack/SpA that breaks through defense boosts and screens. It has minimal impact on checks and counters because it is very difficult to use if you haven't already trapped and you're vulnerable the turn you use it too.

Assault Vest 3.0 Submission:

Moveset Submission

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Poison Fang / Sand Tomb / Infestation
Move 4: Iron Tail / Stone Edge / Earthquake
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

  • Spirit Shackle is a decently powerful STAB and allows CAP to trap everything except for Normal types.
  • Leech Life helps AV CAP to heal off damage it may have taken during a trapping turn. It provides a backstop to Dark-type checks and It can offset the damage from Pyroak's Lava Plume completely.
  • The third slot is a residual damage slot, utilizing either Poison Fang to fish for Toxic status, Sand Tomb to do Ground-type chip damage and partial-trapping, or Infestation for weak damage but unblockable partial trapping.
  • The 4th slot is a coverage slot. Iron Tail hits Fairies like Clefable hard, and its 30% defense drop effect helps the entire set if it activates. Stone Edge hits more targets, specifically Zapdos which needs to Roost to mitigate it. Earthquake can hit Zapdos on Roost if you catch it, and is also decent coverage with Dragon moves on other sets. It hits Bisharp and Excadrill the hardest of the listed options, as well as annihilating CAP's many 4x Ground-weak targets.
  • Maximum Attack to hit hard, 8 Spe EVs to outrun Max Spe Adamant Bisharp and other Base 70s.
  • Defensive EVs allow CAP to avoid a OHKO from unboosted Collosoil Sucker Punch and recover back substantial HP with Leech Life.
  • Set is specifically advantageous against Clefable (w/ Iron Tail), Tapu Lele, and can effectively wall and dismantle many special attacking threats.
The updated set doesn't have as much a hodgepodge of random moves anymore, but it is much more focused on the purpose of each slot.
I like this set a lot better, but Earthquake stands out to me. There are a bunch of pros and cons to its inclusion that I'm deliberating myself.

Why it's ok
  • Counters are fine against it
  • STAB Z-moves are stronger than Z-EQ
  • Reliable move
However, in context with CAP23 as we've already made it, Earthquake honestly supplants CAP23'S Dragon-type moves with one exception. Dragon Claw would be written off as the more reliable move and be replaced by Earthquake because the drop in power isn't all that noticeable. The only Dragon-type move CAP23 would ever consider using would be only Outrage for its nuking power. When we look such a consistently powerful and reliable move, we should look at the whole mon with its coverage too. We would have Ghost + Ground coverage, Ice + Ground coverage (though weaker because physical), Flying + Ground coverage, and Rock + Ground Coverage, and looking at most of the movesets we're already given, so it works really well with all of the coverage we already have.

Why it's a little meh
  • Undermines CAP23's Dragon-type to a large extent
  • Cited to work only for one specific scenario (Zapdos Roosting) but has many other implications elsewhere (might be good or bad ones though)
  • Already works really well with the copious amounts of coverage we already have
On the other hand, maybe Dragon Claw would be supplanted anyway. You rarely see Dragon Claw ever except on DD Salamence and SD Garchomp, which have the liberty of boosting. Dragon Claw also gets put down by Spirit Shackle because they have the same Base Power after STAB as well. So, Earthquake's reliability might be beneficial in a way? I'm really on the fence about this move.

In any case, I'd like to see Earthquake's interaction with purely offensive sets.
 
I don't like at all having Shadow Bone as STAB. The usefulness of having a no-trapping set remains obscure for a mon who gets plenty of very different sets. What I mean it is that shadow bone won't increase the versability of CAP23 (and it is the only reason why some people want a no-trapping set).

There are two situations :

- Or Shadow bone will become more used that Spirit Shackle, the trapping set will be occulted and so less predictable. Spirit Shackle will be considered more like an option, a techmove of the main sweeper set which has as only utility the way to suprise the foe in trapping it. I dont think it's what we want but even if it is, we have to be very careful about that. Remember that the trapmove can never be used if we get a more useful stab (Thoussand Arrows vs Thoussand Waves for example).
- Or Spirit Shackle will remain our main STAB compared to Shadow Bone. In this situation, Shadow Bone provides nothing in favor of the versatility to CAP23. If we don't get SB, Spirit shackle could replace it in every situation without it has any influence. If it is this situation we expect, there is no reason to want an other stab.

Shadow Bone increases the RNG as well. Marowak-A isn't fast enough to always come on the board to constrain the opponent to switch. CAP23 can do that. 20% is exactly the same percentage than a Waterfall flinch or a +1 Attack of Meteor Mash of Megagross. 20% is enough current to try to have the drop, everybody here has already lost against an opponent who has succeeded to get a Dark pulse flinch (20% as well). Keep in mind too that ghost type is generally considered as being the best type to spam offensively.

Celeestela is the second best counter of CAP23 just after Scizor-M. Just imagine a CAP23 Choice band Shadow bone :

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 166-196 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If the foe gets the drop, you have to choose between to lose your counter or an other Pokemon.
If the opponent only has Spirit Shackle :
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 156-184 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can Protect and then leech seed without having problems.

Scizor-Mega, aka the best CAP23's counter :

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 121-144 (35.2 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Shadow Bone vs. -1 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Scizor-Mega: 114-135 (33.2 - 39.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO


Even if I know we are talking only about competitive aspect, I would like to talk quickly about the realism. CAP23 doesn't have bones, SB is a signature move of Marowak-A, CAP23 will have a great movepool with all your suggestions (especially many moves will be learned by levels / eggs). If we can limite the unnatural things I think it gonna be more enjoyable for everyone.

Shadow Bone is unhealthy in adding RNG in the game and in giving the possibility to CAP23 to deal with its counters. The reason to get the move is also arguable because it doesn't give much versatility. Finally, to have SB is unrealistic considered it is a signature move, the apparence of CAP23 and the large options the trapper already gets.
 
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Deck Knight

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To address EQ before snake or cbrevan wrap this thread up. Specfic to our threat lists, let's consider the most extreme example of an offensive coverage set

Moveset Submission

Name: Rando Bando
Move 1: Sleep Talk
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Rush
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Comatose
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Sleep Talk makes this set highly unpredictable, defends against Sucker Punch, and since it selects randomly there will never be a "good" switchin on CAP. If it calls Spirit Shackle CAP can keep fishing for an effective attack, if it calls Outrage, it will do massive damage without Outrage's drawbacks. CB Earthquake on the other hand can maul some of our checks.
  • Spirit Shackle is good STAB and can trap opponents.
  • Outrage with Choice Band is massively powerful and the drawbacks against directly selecting Outrage are minimized by having a viable trapping move to wither down opposing Fairies. Dragon Rush has some acc issues, but that flinch chance is maddening and it has the most immediate power.
  • Earthquake gives the set Dragon + Ground coverage, which is highly desirable and Earthquake is the most powerful, reliable coverage move.
  • Max Offensive EVs because Band Set.

Some EQ calcs:
(I have also supplied the Tectonic Rage Calc for each target in case one were to specifically use a Groundinum-Z Lure Set)

Threaten and Dismantle List:
Toxapex:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 111-132 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pressure List:
Excadrill:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 300-354 (83.1 - 98%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 498-588 (137.9 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 398-470 (146.8 - 173.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Naviathan:
DD:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Naviathan: 163-192 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Spirit Shackle vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Naviathan: 219-258 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Naviathan: 362-428 (100.8 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Naviathan: 436-514 (121.4 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Checks List:
Bisharp:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 149-176 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 124-147 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 332-392 (122.5 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 398-470 (146.8 - 173.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(EQ directly KOs, any Sleep Talk comination of Outrage Dragon Rush or Earthquake usually KOs with rocks down)

Colossoil:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 373-439 (91.6 - 107.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 312-367 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 208-245 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 249-294 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(EQ scrapes by with a 2HKO, but nothing else really threatens Soil even with CB unless you're crazy and use Band Outrage.)

Mega Diancie:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 184-217 (76.3 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 306-362 (126.9 - 150.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 368-434 (152.6 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Magearna:
TR:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 177-208 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 294-348 (80.7 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 352-416 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Shift Gear:
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Salamence Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (117.6 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Counters List:
Earthquake is weaker than Spirit Shackle against Ferrothorn, Mega-Scizor, and Tapu Fini. Most of our hard counters are actually immune to it.

In Summary, EQ may be good coverage, and it's probably going to supplant Dragon Claw normally. Lets be honest though, Dragon STAB of the non-nuking variety is almost never good because of it's low-ish Base Power. Most of the Dragon Pulse users are CMers who don't want Draco Meteor's drops, and Dragon Claw only tends to get used when it's the only reliable STAB available. Dragon Rush has Acc issues but most mons would run it with Dragonium-Z were it not for Outrage.

CB vs. LO
Choice Band represents the strongest possible calcs. Against most checks and counters, the drop in damage from Life Orb will take them out of the 2HKO range on neutral targets. Bisharp and Mega Diancie will still be KO'd by LO EQ, whereas Naviathan and Shift Gear Magerna require high rolls (TR Magearna drops to a 2HKO). 2 Choice Band Shackles are also more damaging than an unboosted Shackle followed by Never-Ending Nightmare.

In short, while EQ is good coverage and will combine well with other STABs, its closeness in damage to Outrage on neutral targets will make it have to fight for a slot, as Tectonic Rage is nowhere close in power to STAB Devastating Drake. As expected though, Super-Effective Tectonic Rage crushes checks and counters weak to Ground. It doesn't appreciably threaten our checks more than existing options like Devastating Drake or Never-Ending Nightmare, with the sole exception of Bisharp which really hates being outsped by anything with a strong neutral or SE hit. Sub + Tectonic Rage or a Sleep Talk CB EQ will do in Bisharp, but otherwise it has the upper hand with Sucker Punch.

EDIT: So snake and I did a Custom Game with the Outrage version of the set and its... got some weird mechanics. If Sleep Talk selects Outrage, you'll be forced to select Outrage again, but it will fail. You will then be able to select Sleep Talk again. Also, you do not necessarily get confused when your Outrage gets cut short, presumably it confuses you when the game would select an Outrage duration of 2, but not a duration of 3.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7customgame-652818219

TL;DR Comatose Sleep Talk is wack and don't use it with Outrage.
 
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cbrevan

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48 Hour Warning

We've had a long and productive discussion for movesets, and I think it's time to set our sights on the conclusion. Normally, this would be a 24 hour warning, but I want to give people the chance to post their final thoughts on a day that isn't Halloween. From here, I'd like everyone to focus on what has been brought up already, as well as the decisions I've come to concerning the moves and sets I mentioned in my last post. If you disagree with my assessments, or would like to provide any other commentary on the ongoing discussion, now is the time to do so.

Onto the commentary, both the Heal Block and Offensive Utility sets have been approved, as they haven't seen discussion since my last post. Laser Focus received both negative and positive feedback, but I believe the support for the move presented a strong enough argument for it to be ICC on the move, so Laser Focus has also been approved.

Sub Toxic has been approved as well, but only with the exclusion Pain Split. There was no strong consensus in support or against the move, and lacking a strong argument as to why the CAP needs recovery, albeit situational recovery, I don't believe I will be allowing it.

I've also decided to disallow Shadow Bone and not approve it's corresponding set. The main reason Shadow Bone was brought up was to address the possibility of viable non-trapping sets, by introducing a move to overshadow Spirit Shackle. While this was a good direction to explore, I don't believe the argument presented for it was sound. The need for non trapping and trapping sets were to help incentive Pokemon that beat some of our sets while losing to others to switch into us. Looking through the thread, it's apparent that one of Spirit Shackle's main use is for it's damage output, and on offensive sets, both moves are similarly enough that they beat the same Pokemon. Since Shadow Bone has no upside outside of offensive sets, it's safe to say that it would only see use over Shadow Bone on offensive sets; however, these same offensive sets would still be effectively the same in terms of damage output if they used Spirit Shackle. Therefore, I think it's logical to conclude that Shadow Bone would fail to create a meaningful distinction between trapping and non trapping sets, and certainly not to the extent that it positively impacts the CAP's trapping role. In such a case, Shadow Bone should be evaluated not for it's role in creating a non trapping set, but whether or not the move has competitive merit and function for the CAP. In it's case, I don't believe it does, as it's a pure upgrade to Spirit Shackle when looked at from an offensive angle, and there are very few benchmarks to warrant the boost in power. Even with these benchmarks in mind (said benchmarks are included in snake_rattler's original post on the move), it has already been established in this thread that with an actual attack boost, the CAP would be able to power through some of it's described counters. Shadow Bone's 20% chance to drop would allow it to do so if it procs on a switch in, and then proceed to force out said switch in if not already trapped by Infestation or Anchor Shot (or even Spirit Shackle). With all this in mind, I don't believe Shadow Bone has had a convincing argument set forth to explain why it is warranted, and in lack of a clear community consensus on the move, I have to disallow it for now.

One move I forgot to mention in my last post was Curse. Curse is a strange move for this CAP; it's both extremely gimmicky with few upsides, but also potentially significant enough make me wary on allowing it. In purpose, the move is meant to put a faster timer than any other residual damage can achieve on a Pokemon, albeit with a massive drawback on the user. Compounding this issue, Toxic has already been showcased in an approved set to be able to effectively eliminate defensive Pokemon such as Tomohawk, all the while having only a minor drawback on the user. It's also more realistic of a move to be cast multiple, even consecutive, times throughout a match, something Curse is unable to match. Therefore, I believe Curse's viability depends on it's advantages over Toxic, and even to a lesser extent Infestation, with said advantages being a faster clock (4 turns not counting recovery) and an ability to inflict significant residual on Poison and Steel types. It also has the benefit of being a last resort kind of move to help set up a would be setup sweeper into revenge kill range, as well as other situations where the faster timer is significant. Unfortunately, our entire list of designated counters have a built in immunity to Toxic in one form or another, so in a vacuum Curse is our best shot to wear these Pokemon down. In actual battle, the damage race between us and our designated counters would be too tight for us to consistently win, but the fact that one of Curse's major upside is targeting our counters is worrying to me. I also don't believe there is a strong consensus on the move yet, and in lack of a strong argument to address these issues, I'm leaning towards disallow for now. Just seems like a can or worms we don't need to open.

Another move that has been brought up again is Will-o-Wisp. In this case, I share similar concerns to snake_rattler in that it allows us to significantly cripple some of our designated counters, mainly Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Skarmory, and most importantly Mega Scizor. While both Ferrothorn and Celesteela have recovery issues that prevent them from being hard counters to the CAP, Skarmory and Mega Scizor certainly have the bulk and presence against us to do so, and in both cases a burn severely limits they're ability to function. Skarmory becomes even more passive than it was, and defensive Mega Scizor sets become even more so. I don't believe this issue has been addressed anywhere in the thread, and given how powerful the move is against our designated counters, I'll have to disallow it for now.

Onto the recently brought up moves, Trick seems unnecessarily powerful. For starters, a set comprised of Choice Scarf/Band STABS + Psychic Fangs + Trick is an easy example of an offensive set utilizing the move, and in this case, Trick would allow the CAP to lure in and render nearly worthless defensive Pokemon such as Tomhawk and Toxapex, as well as a large portion of our counters list in Skarmory, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn. What's most distressing to me is that the sets Trick would be viable on aren't gimmicks at all, which would limit the CAP's hard counter almost exclusively to defensive Mega Scizor. Unless there is an explanation as to why this interaction with our counters is acceptable, I'm against Trick for now.

Wish is another move I'm unsure of. While it would certainly prove a huge boon to the residual damage sets built around Sub/Protect/Phantom Force + Infestation/Toxic, there's also a chance of Wish enabling bulky pivot sets that seek to take advantage of our bulk and typing. Going back to concept discussion, we established that we didn't want the CAP to focus on stalling tactics to beat it's target Pokemon. At what point would a cleric pivot hybrid brought about by Wish cross into this territory?

DK's Revised AV set introduced a number of moves I'm unsure of. Sand Tomb doesn't seem viable when Infestation is an option for trapping and Earthquake for Ground coverage. Poison Fang also doesn't seem viable since it's inferior to Anchor Shot and Iron Tail coverage wise, and the effect is 50/50 roll, which is a massive downsize for a move where the secondary effect is the selling point. I think a more optimal set would feature another coverage movein the third moveslot, such as running both Earthquake and Stone Edge to help keep the damage on Magearna while serving as a solid Volcorona check. Iron Tail has two main upsides to Anchor Shot, mainly in guaranteeing a 2hko On Clefable regardless of item, and allowing for a OHKO on Tapu Bulu. For the AV set, I can see it being used over Anchor Shot to help beat Clefable. Earthquake is a powerful move as well, but I think DK's followup post on it presents enough of an argument for me to consider allowing it.
 

Dogfish44

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Posted Trick mainly to make sure that the idea wasn't lost - I will concede that Pajantom (Oh so nice to have an actual name) is naturally harder to tackle than the average Trick user purely from stats, although I don't think it'd present a major problem. I suppose notionally a Fling set might make more sense (unless we opt to add Will-O-Wisp outright) for the same principle of using Comatose + Orbs?

---

One point hovering on Discord at the moment is that there's been relatively little discussion with regards to Anchor Shot - and a sense that it's rather extra in terms of our movepool.

I find myself in agreement with the train of thought that we simply don't need it as an option. If we need the Steel-type coverage to hit Fairies, then Iron Tail is the logical place to look, if not Iron Head or branching into Gunk Shot. Meanwhile for trapping Chansey, Infestation is plenty suitable (especially with Heal Block allowing Infestation to clear through a lot of damage, and the ability to simply stack Toxic and Infestation).
 
One nice facet to Anchor Shot is that it allows CAP to nail down Normal types, like Chansey, as Spirit shackle cannot. However, Infestation and SandTomb would also do this, but not every set may want to run these moves. And Granted Chansey vs CAP The blob is loosing 100% of the time, but CAP being able to trap it allows a special sweeper set up.

Anyway, I don’t see any reason to deny Anchor Shot.

————-

I think Gunk Shot and poison moves are a poor choice as this would compromise Tapu Fini as a counter. Steel types coverage nails Fairies like Clefable or Tapu Bulu while hitting Tapu Fini for neutral and Earthquake is an option for Magenera.
 
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S. Court

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My main concern about Anchor Shot is the fact it makes hard for fairy type to act as a check for Pajantom, and that's something I consider it shouldn't happen at all. I see some utility to trap Chansey, yes... But Infestation can make the same work, without compromising our check list too much.

Gunk Shot has a shaky accuracy, but it has the same trouble about massing with Fairy type Pokemon too much, so I'm unsure if it should be allowed too
 

Dogfish44

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but not every set may want to run these moves
I dislike this line of logic - pretty much every time I've seen Anchor Shot, it's been slashed with Infestation - but whilst the latter has been justified for it's chip damage, I don't feel as if the former has any justification floating around atm. Plus, the fact that not every set will run a given move... is not an inherent knock against an option, by any stretch.

I think Gunk Shot and poison moves are a poor choice as this would compromise Tapu Fini as a counter. Steel types coverage nails Fairies like Clefable or Tapu Bulu while hitting Tapu Fini for neutral and Earthquake is an option for Magenera.
I agree on this point however (I was just listing anti-Fairy moves), and certainly I'd agree that Steel Coverage in Iron Tail and Smart Strike are superior options here.
 

snake

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Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Icicle Crash Stone Edge / Earthquake / Outrage / Ice Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpD
Nature: Adamant

This set was pretty good to start with at the beginning of the thread, but as discussion has evolved, there need to be a few edits. With this set intending to beat out Pokemon who heal, Stone Edge is the best option next to Psychic Fangs. Stone Edge hits Zapdos and Pyroak, who are bulky and heal reliably. As for the rest of the slashes, Earthquake scores a harder hit on Toxapex, hits Shift Gear Magearna before it boosts, and generally supplants Dragon Claw. Z-Outrage is still a good option to nuke something and still chip down Heal Blocked Tomohawk and Toxapex. However, Icicle Crash isn't needed to accomplish the goal this set intends to achieve. Revi proposed Icicle Crash was for Landorus-T and for Zapdos; however Stone Edge hits Zapdos and Pyroak harder, and Landorus-T doesn't have access to reliable healing. Therefore, if you /really/ want to hit Landorus-T with this set, Ice Punch is sufficient, but Icicle Crash just doesn't have much of a use when in direct combination with Heal Block, the focal move of the set. I provided more information on Ice Punch vs. Icicle Crash in a previous post if more information is needed. Interestingly, the attack stat on this set is 4 points below the attack stat I used there, so the calcs still hold, but here are some more.

108+ Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
108+ Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 154-182 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 108+ Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 176-208 (46 - 54.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Icicle Crash Stone Edge / Earthquake / Outrage / Ice Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpD
Nature: Adamant

This set was pretty good to start with at the beginning of the thread, but as discussion has evolved, there need to be a few edits. With this set intending to beat out Pokemon who heal, Stone Edge is the best option next to Psychic Fangs. Stone Edge hits Zapdos and Pyroak, who are bulky and heal reliably. As for the rest of the slashes, Earthquake scores a harder hit on Toxapex, hits Shift Gear Magearna before it boosts, and generally supplants Dragon Claw. Z-Outrage is still a good option to nuke something and still chip down Heal Blocked Tomohawk and Toxapex. However, Icicle Crash isn't needed to accomplish the goal this set intends to achieve. Revi proposed Icicle Crash was for Landorus-T and for Zapdos; however Stone Edge hits Zapdos and Pyroak harder, and Landorus-T doesn't have access to reliable healing. Therefore, if you /really/ want to hit Landorus-T with this set, Ice Punch is sufficient, but Icicle Crash just doesn't have much of a use when in direct combination with Heal Block, the focal move of the set. I provided more information on Ice Punch vs. Icicle Crash in a previous post if more information is needed. Interestingly, the attack stat on this set is 4 points below the attack stat I used there, so the calcs still hold, but here are some more.

108+ Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
108+ Atk Giratina-Origin Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 154-182 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
-1 108+ Atk Giratina-Origin Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 176-208 (46 - 54.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, I like this version better than my own. Tbh I saw EQ and Stone Edge coming so this is fine.

As for the moves recently discussed, I don't really have an opinion on Anchor Shot. I like it, but purely for how it's used in the SubToxic set. However, I would be alright if Anchor Shot got the boot, but we had Infestation. We could always just click Infestation over and over again. As for Trick, I hate it. It really screams Gothitelle to me, which is not what we want. Flame Orb could just be terrible for our counters, as we already have said no to Will-o-Wisp. Please don't do this. Curse is something I do not think we should risk. While it is mostly worse than Toxic, it could likely beat all of our counters with relative ease. I don’t think it’s a risk we should take. Wish is personally something that is too defensive for us. SubToxic with Phantom Force is pretty defensive as is, and we could always just have a wishpasser on our team to give us recovery. Please no Wish.
 

cbrevan

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Alright everyone, our 48 hours are up, and it's time for this discussion to come to an end. I'll recap our approved sets, and reiterate the moves we discussed and decided against throughout the thread.

Name: Offensive Utility
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Earthquake / Outrage / Ice Punch
Move 3: Psychic Fangs / Stone Edge / Brave Bird
Move 4: Toxic Spikes / Fairy Lock / Heal Block / Toxic
Ability: Comatose
Item: Ghostium Z / Psychium Z / Dragonium Z / Flynium Z / Life Orb / Eject Button
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

A combination of several sets proposed throughout the thread, this Offensive Utility set showcases Pajantom's flexibility in the fourth slot. Using Ghost and Ground or Ghost and Dragon coverage for strong neutral coverage , the set rounds off with a move to target Tomohawk, Toxapex, Pyroak, and Zapdos in the third slot. Toxic Spikes allows the CAP to incentive hazard removers such as Tomohawk and Zapdos to switch into it, so that they may be removed by the CAP. Fairy Lock gives the CAP an ability to set up a revenge kill by another Pokemon after it's fainted, Heal Block allows the CAP to power through defensive walls such as Toxapex, and Toxic allows the CAP to compromise the walling ability of Pokemon, such as Tomohawk, Tangrowth, and Landorus-T, for the rest of it's team. Item choice is primarily Z crystals and Life Orb to boost Pajantom's damage potential, with the outlier being Eject Button, which is used in combination with Fairy Lock to give Pajantom a free switch to a teammate to remove the trapped Pokemon.

Name: Laser Focus
Move 1: Laser Focus
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Outrage / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Brave Bird / Psychic Fangs
Ability: Comatose
Item: Dragonium Z / Flyinium Z / Psychium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This set takes advantage of Laser Focus to raise Pajantom's damage output, which, in combination with Z crystals, allows the CAP to break down defensive walls. Due to the one turn nature of Laser Focus, Pajantom is unable to effectively power through some of it's counters, which was a main point of contention for permanent stat boosts and debuffs.

Name: SubToxic
Move 1: Spirit Shackle / Anchor Shot / Infestation
Move 2: Substitute / Protect
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Phantom Force
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Nature: Careful

This set takes advantage of Pajantom's special bulk to trap and remove Pokemon, such as Tomohawk, by way of Toxic damage. Phantom Force comes into play on this set as a way to help avoid damage and stall out turns for additional Toxic damage.

Name: Heal Block
Move 1: Heal Block
Move 2: Spirit Shackle
Move 3: Psychic Fangs
Move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake / Outrage / Ice Punch
Ability: Comatose
Item: Leftovers / Psychium Z / Figy Berry / Dragonium Z
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 152 SpD
Nature: Adamant

This set is somewhat of a cross between the Offensive Utility and Heal Block sets, boasting the coverage options of the first set while retaining it's bulk to better wear down and trap Pokemon like the Sub Toxic set. The EVs here are designed specifically to beat Tomohawk in a 1v1. Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Outrage are all used to break through Pokemon such as Pyroak, Zapdos, and Toxapex better. Ice Punch sees use on this set to help ease the matchup versus Landorus-t, who would otherwise take advantage of this set's reduced offensive presence to soft check it.

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Spirit Shackle
Move 2: Leech Life
Move 3: Earthquake / Infestation
Move 4: Iron Tail / Stone Edge
Ability: Comatose
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Attack / 68 Def / 12 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Adamant

Assault Vest uses Pajantom's special bulk to help lure and remove some offensive checks, such as Tapu Lele, as well as Clefable. Leech Life is used to help provide some form of recovery, while also allowing Pajantom to discourage Pursuit trappers, such as Colossoil and Tyranitar, from switching in safely. Iron Tail and Stone Edge help round out Pajantom's coverage against Pokemon such as Pyroak and Clefable, while Infestation allows Pajantom to further wear down Pokemon.

Disallowed Moves:
Shadow Bone
Disallowed to prevent access to a more powerful Ghost STAB, that most importantly allows Pajantom to pressure it's counters if the 20% to lower defense activates. Simply a case of the move being uneeded and potentially too powerful when a safer, nearly identical option is available in Spirit Shackle.

Gunk Shot, Poison Jab, and Cross Poison
Strong Poison coverage has been disallowed to allow Tapu Fini to remain as a more reliable check. Steel-type coverage was chosen to help threaten Fairy-types instead.

Any Physical Electric and Fighting Type Moves
A ban on physical moves of these types was chosen to help keep Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Skarmory as potential counters.

Any Fire Type Moves
A ban on all Fire type moves was chosen to allow Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn to remain as potential counters.

Stealth Rock, Spikes, Sticky Web
All three of these hazards were deemed too much earlier in the thread, primarily due to their power and usefulness in the majority of matchups.

Rapid Spin, Defog
Hazard removal has been disallowed to help keep the focus of this Pajantom on the trapping and removal of Pokemon.

U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot
Pivot moves have been disallowed to prevent the CAP from forming synergistic Voltturn cores with Pokemon such as Magnezone and Tape Koko, which would put too much pressure on our wanted counters.

Memento, Healing Wish, and Lunar Dance
Sacrificial moves were decided against to help keep the focus of this CAP on the trapping and removal of targets, by focusing our utility on moves that better help beat Pokemon we trap.

Will-o-Wisp
Burns would severely compromise several of our intended counters, primarily Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory, and as such, was disallowed to preserve them as reliable switchins.

Curse
Despite being a unique move for Pajantom, Curse was disallowed because the potential upsides to the move were not enough to justify it's soft targeting of our designated counters, all of which possess some immunity to residual damage from Toxic, our main form of residual damage.

Trick
Trick was disallowed to prevent Choice variants of Pajantom from having a tool to get by some of it's intended counters, mainly Celesteela, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn.

Recovery moves, with the exception of Rest
Recover and it's variants, along with Wish and Pain Split, and Moonlight and it's clones, are all disallowed to keep the CAP offensive in nature, and in general to keep wear and tear as counterplay to this CAP. Rest is obviously incompatible with Comatose, and thus there is no competitive reason for it to be disallowed at this stage. Do note that by recovery moves, I am not referring to draining moves, as Leech Life is an approved move, and Drain Punch already been disallowed with the entirety of physical Fighting coverage.

Permanent stat boosting moves, as well as permanent debuffs
Setup moves were decided against early on in the thread for being too powerful with the trapping mechanic, as well as dangerous to our intended counters. Debuffs, such as Screech, are also disallowed because of the ability to use them as psuedo boosting moves with trapping moves.

Celebrate, Hold Hands, Sketch, Purify, Happy Hour, Forest's Curse, Trick-or-Treat, and Conversion
All of these moves are competitively viable Z moves that would change how Pajantom works, be it as a sweeper through all stat boosts, or giving it a way to power through it's intended counters with Z Splash.

Now that has all been laid out, we're now waiting on our TL, snake_rattler, to approve this final list.
 

snake

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The above list seems fine to me. The approved movesets' moves have been thoroughly discussed. Everything discussed in the thread that's problematic has been eliminated as well, so I don't see a reason to poll anything. No objections here.

 
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