CAP Updates: Kitsunoh Discussion (Complete)

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It seems the misrepresentation at first glance would be going both ways.

When I spoke about your implication it was in direct response to what you said. And I quote: "If Iron Fist offensive sets aren't cutting it for you though, the offensive route might not be the way to go because Iron Fist is the least impactful offensive ability option." You said this in a manner that made it clear you a) wanted to go for the least offensive, offensive option and b) if that option (re: Iron Fist) wasn't offensive enough--compared to Tough Claws, which your comparison of calcs to explicitly show that much power is too much of a buff in your opinion--people should potentially think of defensive measures to update Kitsunoh. Regenerator aside, your suggestion that other abilities would be undesirable makes no sense. If the idea is to buff it up offensively, Tough Claws or Sheer Force would be much more desirable than Iron Fist unless you deem them too powerful. In which case, logically, the only other way to interpret what you said about Iron Fist is exactly how I interpreted it and you conveyed it: that Iron Fist is the best offensive approach to Kitsunoh that isn't TOO offensive. As for the claim that Regenerator gives an indirect offensive buff to Life Orb sets, you're correct. But I laid that out alongside my comparison of Kitsunoh to other similar pivots in Mienshao and Tornadus-T.

In regards to the hindrance of choice items, I think that's a given. Which is why I stated it so plainly. But your outrageous claim that I'm suggesting you're saying anything is ludicrous. Because I'm not. What I said was, and again I'll quote: "I agree, Band/Scarf don't make use of Kitsunoh's abilities. The reason it's an "extreme hinderance" for Kitsunoh is because Kitsunoh is most effective when it's able to play an indirect role spreading status, removing hazards and messing with momentum." I never quoted you here except for to mock your spelling mistake. What I said is, and this should be clear, is my own opinion and not me putting words in your mouth. I quoted the only bit of your statement that mattered for the point I was making (that banded items on Kitsunoh are bad) and that this option shouldn't be considered except as a gimmick. I don't know how you can construe that as me putting words in your mouth and taking what you said out of context, but in doing so you've failed to show how I took what you said out of context. I quoted you twice; once was to add on my own point about Choice-items and the other was to object to your notion of, as I've concluded, Iron Fist being the optimal offensive-oriented buff.
I read your whole post and agree that it has a niche use with Iron Fist, but that niche misrepresents both the idea behind Kitsunoh as well as its current set of skills. If you're running Iron Fist you're going to want to run at least 2/3 of the accessible moves Kitsunoh has to make the most functionality of Iron Fist. Otherwise, why bother? Plus you're going to want Shadow Strike if it's an offensive set. Plus Kitsunoh is a scout/pivot (scouting in Gen 7 potentially also being a pivot) and thus you'd want U-Turn as well. But what about Defog, which as a utility move you yourself put priority to. So you're looking at something like this:

- Meteor Mash
- Thunder/Ice Punch
- Shadow Strike
- U-Turn/Defog

And what is this, really? Sure, it hits harder in some sort of offensive way, but it doesn't really pivot and if it does, it does it worse now. If you don't run Defog and/or status Colossoil is going to outclass you as a pivot. If you don't run U-Turn, you suddenly aren't a pivot and are working counterproductive to what Kitsunoh's identity actually is. If you don't run 2/3 Iron Fist moves, you're better off running Limber (or Frisk). If you don't run Shadow Strike on an offensive set, that's dumb. What you end up with when you use Iron Fist is move slot syndrome where your ability clashes with your concept and you end up creating this oddly worse Frankenstein. Which is why I straight up asked the question: would you honestly use Iron Fist over Limber (and Frisk)? 9/10, I doubt it. Mega-Metagross does that better, right?

Lastly, yes, Regenerator is generically good. I don't disagree with that statement. What I disagree with is this reverse notion that because something is generically good it's an automatic no. In Kitsunoh's case, it's frail and has average offensive nature. It's quick, but since Generation 5 it's only slightly above average quick (particularly in CAP where a lot of offense-oriented Pokemon have 110+ Speed). Kitsunoh is a well-rounded pivot whose offensive capabilities lay in revenge killing. Not going toe-to-toe and certainly not stallbreaking. When you compare Kitsunoh to other pokemon who have Regenerator you can clearly see a distinction, which I noted. Kitsunoh is the perfect pokemon to receive Regenerator because it buffs it up in such a manner that Regenerator isn't the overwhelming first choice and even when it is in effect, it isn't broken or unfair; because Regenerator matches Kitsunoh's identity like a glove matches a hand. I've laid out facts for why Kitsunoh isn't just any pokemon when it comes to applying Regenerator. If you're going to refuse Regenerator it'd be good, at least since it's on the table, to see some hard proof for why it's not a good idea other than 'it's generically good so let's avoid at all cost'.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
It seems the misrepresentation at first glance would be going both ways.

When I spoke about your implication it was in direct response to what you said. And I quote: "If Iron Fist offensive sets aren't cutting it for you though, the offensive route might not be the way to go because Iron Fist is the least impactful offensive ability option." You said this in a manner that made it clear you a) wanted to go for the least offensive, offensive option and b) if that option (re: Iron Fist) wasn't offensive enough--compared to Tough Claws, which your comparison of calcs to explicitly show that much power is too much of a buff in your opinion--people should potentially think of defensive measures to update Kitsunoh. Regenerator aside, your suggestion that other abilities would be undesirable makes no sense. If the idea is to buff it up offensively, Tough Claws or Sheer Force would be much more desirable than Iron Fist unless you deem them too powerful. In which case, logically, the only other way to interpret what you said about Iron Fist is exactly how I interpreted it and you conveyed it: that Iron Fist is the best offensive approach to Kitsunoh that isn't TOO offensive. As for the claim that Regenerator gives an indirect offensive buff to Life Orb sets, you're correct. But I laid that out alongside my comparison of Kitsunoh to other similar pivots in Mienshao and Tornadus-T.

In regards to the hindrance of choice items, I think that's a given. Which is why I stated it so plainly. But your outrageous claim that I'm suggesting you're saying anything is ludicrous. Because I'm not. What I said was, and again I'll quote: "I agree, Band/Scarf don't make use of Kitsunoh's abilities. The reason it's an "extreme hinderance" for Kitsunoh is because Kitsunoh is most effective when it's able to play an indirect role spreading status, removing hazards and messing with momentum." I never quoted you here except for to mock your spelling mistake. What I said is, and this should be clear, is my own opinion and not me putting words in your mouth. I quoted the only bit of your statement that mattered for the point I was making (that banded items on Kitsunoh are bad) and that this option shouldn't be considered except as a gimmick. I don't know how you can construe that as me putting words in your mouth and taking what you said out of context, but in doing so you've failed to show how I took what you said out of context. I quoted you twice; once was to add on my own point about Choice-items and the other was to object to your notion of, as I've concluded, Iron Fist being the optimal offensive-oriented buff.
I read your whole post and agree that it has a niche use with Iron Fist, but that niche misrepresents both the idea behind Kitsunoh as well as its current set of skills. If you're running Iron Fist you're going to want to run at least 2/3 of the accessible moves Kitsunoh has to make the most functionality of Iron Fist. Otherwise, why bother? Plus you're going to want Shadow Strike if it's an offensive set. Plus Kitsunoh is a scout/pivot (scouting in Gen 7 potentially also being a pivot) and thus you'd want U-Turn as well. But what about Defog, which as a utility move you yourself put priority to. So you're looking at something like this:

- Meteor Mash
- Thunder/Ice Punch
- Shadow Strike
- U-Turn/Defog

And what is this, really? Sure, it hits harder in some sort of offensive way, but it doesn't really pivot and if it does, it does it worse now. If you don't run Defog and/or status Colossoil is going to outclass you as a pivot. If you don't run U-Turn, you suddenly aren't a pivot and are working counterproductive to what Kitsunoh's identity actually is. If you don't run 2/3 Iron Fist moves, you're better off running Limber (or Frisk). If you don't run Shadow Strike on an offensive set, that's dumb. What you end up with when you use Iron Fist is move slot syndrome where your ability clashes with your concept and you end up creating this oddly worse Frankenstein. Which is why I straight up asked the question: would you honestly use Iron Fist over Limber (and Frisk)? 9/10, I doubt it. Mega-Metagross does that better, right?

Lastly, yes, Regenerator is generically good. I don't disagree with that statement. What I disagree with is this reverse notion that because something is generically good it's an automatic no. In Kitsunoh's case, it's frail and has average offensive nature. It's quick, but since Generation 5 it's only slightly above average quick (particularly in CAP where a lot of offense-oriented Pokemon have 110+ Speed). Kitsunoh is a well-rounded pivot whose offensive capabilities lay in revenge killing. Not going toe-to-toe and certainly not stallbreaking. When you compare Kitsunoh to other pokemon who have Regenerator you can clearly see a distinction, which I noted. Kitsunoh is the perfect pokemon to receive Regenerator because it buffs it up in such a manner that Regenerator isn't the overwhelming first choice and even when it is in effect, it isn't broken or unfair; because Regenerator matches Kitsunoh's identity like a glove matches a hand. I've laid out facts for why Kitsunoh isn't just any pokemon when it comes to applying Regenerator. If you're going to refuse Regenerator it'd be good, at least since it's on the table, to see some hard proof for why it's not a good idea other than 'it's generically good so let's avoid at all cost'.
Ah the beauty of the conflicting opinion...

I think you are underestimating the power of Regenerator for Kitsunoh. While your archetypes for Regen users certainly show how Kitsunoh relates to these, Kitsunoh greatly differs from them in one key aspect: it fits under offensive utility. It has the choice of either running a more offensive set with Meteor Mash and Ice Punch, or focusing on a more support role through Defog and Will-O-Wisp. Either way, Regenerator would give it unnaturally high longevity for a number of reasons. First, it has an incredible ghost/steel typing despite its lackluster defenses. That means Kitsunoh has far more chances to switch in than stuff such as Mienshao and Tangrowth. Second, it has a great speed tier of 110, which allows it to pivot using U-turn out first more often than the usual U-turner. The speed tier isn't nearly as crowded as in OU, and a far number of top CAPs have a speed tier that doesn't reach this speed. Unless you are carrying some form of priority, Kitsunoh is U-turning out first. And even if it is hit, Regenerator automatically heals it back up. Finally, Kitsunoh has a 102 Attack Stat. While this may not sound amazing compared to stuff such as Mega Scizor, it will definitely leave a dent in more than a few Mons. This also helps with possible Life Orb sets, since it gives strength to its other moves and guess what? Regen can heal off the recoil too!

Kitsunoh would then become incredibly powerful.

The main point is, however, that this is all a matter of balance. Snake specifically chose to talk about Iron Fist over stuff like Tough Claws and Sheer Force because the latter two would be incredibly powerful. We don't to make Kitsunoh a top tier threat and a nightmare to face. We want to just give it some tools to better fulfill it role in the metagame. While certainly Regenerator does this, it also cross the line of balance.
 
I'm not underestimating Kitsunoh at all. Yes, Kitsunoh is different in that it is more talented in its utility role than Mienshao or Tornadus-T (who still gets Taunt/Tailwind giving it perfectly viable utility in either shutting down walls or assisting in an offensive shift for its teammates) and acts somewhat as an outlier like Alomomola. But that position being unique to Kitsunoh to put forward a defensive or offensive pivot set with the help of Regenerator doesn't make Kitsunoh "incredibly powerful".

- First off, and I don't think you thought this through but if Kitsunoh is suddenly using Regenerator it no longer has Limber, meaning it can now be crippled. Not that it needs to be, when it's so frail. Additionally, I'm well aware of Kitsunoh's speed tier and base 110 gives it plenty of opportunities to switch out (with or without U-Turn) but its by no means blazing trails. Based on the CAP Viability thread: Greninja, Syclant, Tapu Koko, Charizard-X (which can set up reliably), Mega-Crucibelle, Alakazam-Mega, Cawmodore, Dugtrio, Kerfluffle, Stratgem, Tornadus-T, Volcarona (which can set up reliably) are all A- or higher tiered pokemon in the CAPmeta which outspeed Kitsunoh. And that's far from it. The majority of these Pokemon can OHKO, revenge kill or set up on Kitsunoh.

- As far as typing goes, it has four weakness and three of those are common. 2/3 S-rank Pokemon carry a weakness while Tomohawk walls Kitsunoh. 7/9 A+-rank Pokemon carry a weakness as a common coverage move. 8/13 A-rank carry weakness coverage. I could go on, but you see my point. That doesn't even take into consideration that most of these Pokemon have at least resistance to one of Kitsunoh's stabs making it less likely to be capable of hitting back in a meaningful way. But just to put this in a percentage for you, the whole A-tier has a 55%~ weakness coverage (if I counted correctly) meaning at least half if not more of a team is likely to have coverage for Kitsunoh and of that half, half of that then is also faster than Kitsunoh.

- Comparing Kitsunoh to Tangrowth makes literally no sense, those are entirely different archetypes. Mienshao on the other hand does have a lesser speed, but that lesser speed and usage also finds itself in the UU tier outside of CAP as a note of stats. Also, it happens to have an opposite function to Kitsunoh in that it has 125 atk, with HJK and reckless--this is a wallbreaker. Similarly, Kitsunoh's current other ability is Limber, which accentuates the defensive nature of Kitsunoh in juxtaposition. And more importantly, Mienshao and Tornadus can at least consider special attacks with 125/95 and 100/110 respectively. Kitsunoh is has 103*/55 leaving it out to dry in any sort of mixed/special offense.

- Your criticisms of Regenerator in regards to Life Orb are a bit tone deaf. The intention in that, yes, it would heal off passive damage of Life Orb but in order to do so, you would be forced to switch because passive damage is a bane particularly more so to Kitsunoh whom is already so frail. This incentivizes revenge killing and guerilla attacks rather than any sort of blitzkrieg. That's the exact same logic behind the proposition of Long Reach, except Long Reach is inferior because practically speaking, it makes no sense for you to be pivoting out of slower Pokemon attacking you and taking chip damage from Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs. Additionally Regenerator would help for passive damage sustained on rare resisted attacks, such as flying or ice type moves. I've put the calcs forth on the 1st page. Defensive staples are generally 3HKO at best without a Shadow Strike defense drop. If you really want me to post the offensive hits I can, but anything faster than Kitsunoh hitting it with a stab neutral attack is putting a real dent in it. Not that you'd find something using non-super effective moves on Kitsunoh since its collective weaknesses are so common. Lastly, unlike Iron Fist or other offensive direct boosts, Life Orb requires its item slot, meaning it cannot be compounded like a direct offensive buff.

The bottom line is that while you see Kitsunoh as overpowered, you're exaggerating his strengths. Yes, for example with Life Orb, U-Turn is strengthened. But given its competitively average speed for offensive threats nowadays, combined with the increased usage of Sucker Punch/Pursuit users in the metagame as well as Rocky Helmet physical walls, U-Turn pivoting is not the monster you claim it to be. You can differ in opinion, but the reality is anything that crushes Kitsunoh is still going to do so even with Regenerator. Regenerator adds survivability and defensive buffing not through actual bulk but artificial bulk. Artificial bulk serves only to remove passive damages and accentuate Kitsunoh's features as is. The possibility for double or triple pivoting out of serious harm is there (and is the optimal outcome of such an ability) but that's less a defect of giving Kitsunoh the ability and more the mismanagement of the opponent fail to control the momentum. Offensively, you'd be hard pressed to find a series of competitive situations in which Life Orb from an offensive standpoint makes Kitsunoh extremely viable than it already would be offensively in situations where it already punishes (e.g. fairies, psychics). At best you're looking at 3HKO turning into 2HKO. But you're more than welcome to look yourself.
 
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Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
I just wanna say that in any realistic update for kitsunoh I don't think the current abilities will not be picked up lol. All of the abilities give kitsunoh a big boost which it can use to better itself. I think scouting an item is really being overvalued right now and realistically Iron Fist, Regenerator, Long Reach, Fluffy, Levitate and Grassy Surge ALL are better than frisk. Long Reach being the least significant buff out of that list.

As for Iron Fist, I think that it's a really bad idea. This will change Kitsunoh's identity and stray away from scouting as a whole, although offensive kitsunoh sets can run U-Turn it would only be used to pivot back and forth and retain momentum. Iron Fist doesn't encourage Wispy Kit, which is the best Kitsunoh set right now, but instead it changes sets to focus on attacking rather than supporting your team. Iron Fist is a buff to Kitsunoh's power, but really I don't think it's an issue that needs to be addressed as it's not the main source of Kitsunoh's inefficiency.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
To cover some old ground since we've been doing these updates serially so as not to have 22 threads up at once, Kitsunoh was voted to have a minor competitive update.

I think Regenerator would constitute something more powerful than that, just because it is so universally useful and good. While Regenerator does open it up to being crippled by paralysis, there are more viable clerics in CAP that can work with Kitsunoh. Pyroak can handle Earthquake from most threats, Cyclohm laughs at Fire moves. Malaconda isn't as good a fit typewise, but it does resist special Ghost and Dark attacks as well as Earthquake. Regenerator is therefore great both offensively and defensively.

Meanwhile I think Iron Fist is a good attempt at moderation but doesn't provide quite the oomph Kitsunoh needs to have more successful offensive sets. I will admit there's an ancient meme about how Kit gets Punch moves anyway "How does it punch? It turns its tail into a fist and punches with that!" so I actually find the ability endearing, but I think it's a little bit *too* minor. Tough Claws boosts U-turn, a major Kit pivot move, and Shadow Strike which is Kitsunoh's primary form of offense even on the WispyKit set. Tough Claws is actually more in line with how Kit wants to perform its role than Iron Fist is. The boost itself is also not too drastic given Kitsunoh's limited base Attack. I also don't think TC will be used always over Limber or Frisk, just because each of those abilities does something different and helpful for Kitsunoh. The fact Fidgit picked up Frisk though means it has bulkier competition (with an equally interesting defensive type).

I did some calculations on what a *Defensive* set would look like using Tough Claws and some Utility options, with Ice Punch as a potential backstop. I focused around the magic 43% number for Shadow Strike's Defense Drop to net a 2HKO, plus some relevant OHKOs:

Salamence (OU Z-crystal Moxie Sweeper) Ice Punch 106.3 - 125.6% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (OU Stallbreaker) Shadow Strike 104.6 - 123.8% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 103.2 - 122.4% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 103.2 - 122.4% guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Choice Scarf) Ice Punch 66.4 - 78.9% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Double Dance) Ice Punch 66.4 - 78.9% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Ice Punch 66.4 - 78.9% guaranteed 2HKO
Greninja (OU All-out Attacker) U-turn 65.9 - 77.8% guaranteed 2HKO
Greninja (OU Spikes) U-turn 65.2 - 77.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Greninja-Ash (OU Choice Specs) U-turn 65.2 - 77.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp (OU Tank Chomp) Ice Punch 55.6 - 66.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Excadrill (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 48.3 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Excadrill (OU Offensive Spinner) Shadow Strike 48.3 - 57.1% 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Excadrill (OU Sand Rush) Shadow Strike 48.3 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Charizard (OU Dragon Dance) Shadow Strike 47.4 - 55.8% 79.7% chance to 2HKO
Charizard (OU Drought Wallbreaker) Shadow Strike 47.4 - 55.8% 79.7% chance to 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-Y (OU Drought Wallbreaker) Shadow Strike 47.4 - 55.8% 79.7% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Koko (OU Offensive Pivot) Shadow Strike 47.3 - 55.8% 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Venusaur (OU Offensive Tank) Ice Punch 47.3 - 56.2% 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Reuniclus (OU Calm Mind) Shadow Strike 47.1 - 55.6% 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragonite (OU Electrium Z) Ice Punch 47 - 55.7% 74.6% chance to 2HKO
Dragonite (OU Flyinium Z) Ice Punch 47 - 55.7% 74.6% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Koko (OU Calm Mind) Shadow Strike 46.9 - 55.5% 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Bulu (OU Choice Band) Ice Punch 46 - 54.6% 57% chance to 2HKO
Pinsir-Mega (OU Swords Dance) Ice Punch 45.7 - 54.6% 54.3% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Bulu (OU Swords Dance) Ice Punch 45.5 - 54% 43.4% chance to 2HKO
Bronzong (OU Defensive Pivot) Shadow Strike 44.9 - 53.2% 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tentacruel (OU Showdown Usage) Shadow Strike 44.7 - 53% 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Primarina (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 43 - 50.8% 3.1% chance to 2HKO
Pinsir (OU Swords Dance) Shadow Strike 42.4 - 50.1% 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Amoonguss (OU Defensive Pivot) Ice Punch 42.2 - 50.1% guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Gyarados (OU Flyinium Z) Shadow Strike 41.9 - 49.8% guaranteed 3HKO
Excadrill (OU Bulky Spinner) Shadow Strike 41.2 - 48.8% guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kingdra (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 41.2 - 48.7% guaranteed 3HKO
Kommo-o (OU Autotomize) Ice Punch 41.2 - 48.7% guaranteed 3HKO
Scizor (OU Offensive Swords Dance) Shadow Strike 40.9 - 48.3% guaranteed 3HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Physically Defensive) Ice Punch 40.8 - 48.1% guaranteed 3HKO
Azumarill (OU Belly Drum) Shadow Strike 40.6 - 48.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Tapu Bulu (OU Leech Seed) Ice Punch 40.4 - 47.9% guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slowbro (OU Defensive) Shadow Strike 40.2 - 47.8% guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Terrakion (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 39.1 - 46.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion (OU Stealth Rock) Shadow Strike 39.1 - 46.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 39 - 45.8% guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 39 - 45.8% guaranteed 3HKO


This makes Defensive Kit (which runs Max HP/Spe and 4 Atk) much more viable, and gives it's U-turn some bite against Colossoil too:

4 Atk Tough Claws Kitsunoh U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 176-208 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

While I do think it gives a strong boost to offensive sets as well, it makes the defensive set much less passive and much more difficult to switch into. Kitsunoh is already a Pokemon geared to an offensive pivot role, the increase in power does aid it significantly but it is still walled conclusively by Cyclohm and while Pyroak doesn't like Defense drops, Kit can only beat it if it's banded and gets a Def drop.

Now, this will be a bit out of left field, but there is another ability which would boost Kitsunoh's offensive and support sets without a direct power boost, but it isn't as reliable: Poison Touch. Poison Touch activates when Kitsunoh makes contact, not the other way around. And perhaps there are situations Kitsunoh would prefer to Burn rather than Poison, but between defense drops and residual damage, Poison Touch could weaken opponents very quickly, and as it won't poison Steel types they can still be burned. Regular Poison isn't as powerful as Toxic, but most walls don't want to be Poisoned while switching into a U-turn, and few Pokemon are pleased to be Poisoned over having Healthy status.
 
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To cover some old ground since we've been doing these updates serially so as not to have 22 threads up at once, Kitsunoh was voted to have a minor competitive update.

I think Regenerator would constitute something more powerful than that, just because it is so universally useful and good. While Regenerator does open it up to being crippled by paralysis, there are more viable clerics in CAP that can work with Kitsunoh. Pyroak can handle Earthquake from most threats, Cyclohm laughs at Fire moves. Malaconda isn't as good a fit typewise, but it does resist special Ghost and Dark attacks as well as Earthquake. Regenerator is therefore great both offensively and defensively.

Meanwhile I think Iron Fist is a good attempt at moderation but doesn't provide quite the oomph Kitsunoh needs to have more successful offensive sets. I will admit there's an ancient meme about how Kit gets Punch moves anyway "How does it punch? It turns its tail into a fist and punches with that!" so I actually find the ability endearing, but I think it's a little bit *too* minor. Tough Claws boosts U-turn, a major Kit pivot move, and Shadow Strike which is Kitsunoh's primary form of offense even on the WispyKit set. Tough Claws is actually more in line with how Kit wants to perform its role than Iron Fist is. The boost itself is also not too drastic given Kitsunoh's limited base Attack. I also don't think TC will be used always over Limber or Frisk, just because each of those abilities does something different and helpful for Kitsunoh. The fact Fidgit picked up Frisk though means it has bulkier competition (with an equally interesting defensive type).

I did some calculations on what a *Defensive* set would look like using Tough Claws and some Utility options, with Ice Punch as a potential backstop. I focused around the magic 43% number for Shadow Strike's Defense Drop to net a 2HKO, plus some relevant OHKOs:

Salamence (OU Z-crystal Moxie Sweeper) Ice Punch 106.3 - 125.6% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (OU Stallbreaker) Shadow Strike 104.6 - 123.8% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 103.2 - 122.4% guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 103.2 - 122.4% guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Choice Scarf) Ice Punch 66.4 - 78.9% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Double Dance) Ice Punch 66.4 - 78.9% guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Offensive) Ice Punch 66.4 - 78.9% guaranteed 2HKO
Greninja (OU All-out Attacker) U-turn 65.9 - 77.8% guaranteed 2HKO
Greninja (OU Spikes) U-turn 65.2 - 77.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Greninja-Ash (OU Choice Specs) U-turn 65.2 - 77.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp (OU Tank Chomp) Ice Punch 55.6 - 66.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Excadrill (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 48.3 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Excadrill (OU Offensive Spinner) Shadow Strike 48.3 - 57.1% 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Excadrill (OU Sand Rush) Shadow Strike 48.3 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Charizard (OU Dragon Dance) Shadow Strike 47.4 - 55.8% 79.7% chance to 2HKO
Charizard (OU Drought Wallbreaker) Shadow Strike 47.4 - 55.8% 79.7% chance to 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-Y (OU Drought Wallbreaker) Shadow Strike 47.4 - 55.8% 79.7% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Koko (OU Offensive Pivot) Shadow Strike 47.3 - 55.8% 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Venusaur (OU Offensive Tank) Ice Punch 47.3 - 56.2% 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Reuniclus (OU Calm Mind) Shadow Strike 47.1 - 55.6% 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragonite (OU Electrium Z) Ice Punch 47 - 55.7% 74.6% chance to 2HKO
Dragonite (OU Flyinium Z) Ice Punch 47 - 55.7% 74.6% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Koko (OU Calm Mind) Shadow Strike 46.9 - 55.5% 69.5% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Bulu (OU Choice Band) Ice Punch 46 - 54.6% 57% chance to 2HKO
Pinsir-Mega (OU Swords Dance) Ice Punch 45.7 - 54.6% 54.3% chance to 2HKO
Tapu Bulu (OU Swords Dance) Ice Punch 45.5 - 54% 43.4% chance to 2HKO
Bronzong (OU Defensive Pivot) Shadow Strike 44.9 - 53.2% 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tentacruel (OU Showdown Usage) Shadow Strike 44.7 - 53% 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Primarina (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 43 - 50.8% 3.1% chance to 2HKO
Pinsir (OU Swords Dance) Shadow Strike 42.4 - 50.1% 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Amoonguss (OU Defensive Pivot) Ice Punch 42.2 - 50.1% guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Gyarados (OU Flyinium Z) Shadow Strike 41.9 - 49.8% guaranteed 3HKO
Excadrill (OU Bulky Spinner) Shadow Strike 41.2 - 48.8% guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kingdra (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 41.2 - 48.7% guaranteed 3HKO
Kommo-o (OU Autotomize) Ice Punch 41.2 - 48.7% guaranteed 3HKO
Scizor (OU Offensive Swords Dance) Shadow Strike 40.9 - 48.3% guaranteed 3HKO
Landorus-Therian (OU Physically Defensive) Ice Punch 40.8 - 48.1% guaranteed 3HKO
Azumarill (OU Belly Drum) Shadow Strike 40.6 - 48.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Tapu Bulu (OU Leech Seed) Ice Punch 40.4 - 47.9% guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slowbro (OU Defensive) Shadow Strike 40.2 - 47.8% guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Terrakion (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 39.1 - 46.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion (OU Stealth Rock) Shadow Strike 39.1 - 46.2% guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo (OU Choice Scarf) Shadow Strike 39 - 45.8% guaranteed 3HKO
Keldeo (OU Choice Specs) Shadow Strike 39 - 45.8% guaranteed 3HKO


This makes Defensive Kit (which runs Max HP/Spe and 4 Atk) much more viable, and gives it's U-turn some bite against Colossoil too:

4 Atk Tough Claws Kitsunoh U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 176-208 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

While I do think it gives a strong boost to offensive sets as well, it makes the defensive set much less passive and much more difficult to switch into. Kitsunoh is already a Pokemon geared to an offensive pivot role, the increase in power does aid it significantly but it is still walled conclusively by Cyclohm and while Pyroak doesn't like Defense drops, Kit can only beat it if it's banded and gets a Def drop.

Now, this will be a bit out of left field, but there is another ability which would boost Kitsunoh's offensive and support sets without a direct power boost, but it isn't as reliable: Poison Touch. Poison Touch activates when Kitsunoh makes contact, not the other way around. And perhaps there are situations Kitsunoh would prefer to Burn rather than Poison, but between defense drops and residual damage, Poison Touch could weaken opponents very quickly, and as it won't poison Steel types they can still be burned. Regular Poison isn't as powerful as Toxic, but most walls don't want to be Poisoned while switching into a U-turn, and few Pokemon are pleased to be Poisoned over having Healthy status.
Okay, so I was reluctant to support TC because I was worried it was too much. However, seeing as you didn't say it was too much (You're a pretty good person to make a decent judgement on that), I support Tough Claws. As for Poison Touch, I think that falls into the category of too minor. It doesn't go off all the time, and it goes off when you attack. I think a better alternative to your general idea of combining status and chip would be Flame Body. Yes, it may not rack up as much damage as poison does, but it actually helps Kit scout out physical attackers that can run mixed sets, as they usually hate burns. Also, it happens when the foe attacks you, so it discourages using contact moves on Kit, which could force the opponent to use a weaker move against you to avoid that burn chance. If your foe does this, you have essentially just scouted any potential mixed attackers and have shown that they at least have a physical bias.
 
...a minor competitive update.

I think Regenerator would constitute something more powerful than that, just because it is so universally useful and good. While Regenerator does open it up to being crippled by paralysis, there are more viable clerics in CAP that can work with Kitsunoh. Pyroak can handle Earthquake from most threats, Cyclohm laughs at Fire moves. Malaconda isn't as good a fit typewise, but it does resist special Ghost and Dark attacks as well as Earthquake. Regenerator is therefore great both offensively and defensively.
The same can be said about clerics who wishpass. In fact, wish candidates are rarer than status healers when it comes to clerics both in viable logistics as well as need. If you replace the status healing with the wishpasser, the same can be said of your statement. Case in point, your therefore statement is moot. We both know merits of Regenerator don't depend on team composition, because if it did, so to would every other ability. And that's an absurd proposition. That's not to say Regenerator isn't great both offensively and defensively, I have in fact already agreed to that sentiment and expressed it thusly. The difference being that Kitsunoh is the rare case where the ability enhances the Pokemon because the Pokemon makes the best of the ability while not overshadowing its other ability. For all intents and purposes, Frisk is the third wheel and for the most part, the useless third wheel. A minor competitive update is the order of the day, however I feel that given the circumstances of Kitsunoh's situation, Regenerator while going slightly beyond a minor competitive update towards a more modest competitive update still manages to balance itself out thanks to a) Kitsunoh's cons that remain unchanged by Regenerator (namely its fragility and common weaknesses not being helped by the artificial bulk of regeneration) and b) already having a relatively useless 'flavor' ability and lacks competitive viability in Gen 7. I suppose it comes down to the methodology of whether you're starting from the position that you want an ability of lesser or equal stature than Frisk or if you start from the position that you want an ability of equal or lesser stature than Limber.

Lastly, if people are deadset against Regenerator because they're afraid of the stigma that's attached to it, I'd encourage people to look at Kitsunoh individually. And if you're still deadset against it, I would have to encourage you to find an alternative offensive method to get behind than a direct buff. The notion that either Iron Fist or Tough Claws would fit Kitsunoh only encourage arming up in a physical set that would be more than likely missing the original intent of Kitsunoh. As much as it lacks flavor, something like Poison Touch would be much more realistic in playing to Kitsunoh's strengths than raw stat boosting abilities. If I weren't so confident in Regenerator, I'd be pushing something similar to that. But putting aside the general awesomeness of Regenerator, it's not the be-all-end-all on Kitsunoh and it doesn't make Kitsunoh the be-all-end-all either.
 
So if Regenerator is seen as being too strong an ability, then what about Filter? Filter makes switching in to scout coverage moves on certain Pokemon much easier. SpDefensive Celesteela has a good chance to 2HKO Kitsunoh with Flamethrower after hazards (Rocks and a layer of Spikes), but with Filter Kitsunoh can take this hit much more easily. Same thing happens with Greninja's Hidden Power Fire, Sub Coil Zygarde's Thousand Arrows at + 1. With just max HP Kitsunoh can break Zy's sub with Ice Punch and get a burn off. This would definitely help it's original role as a scout (checking for coverage moves) and It's current role as a Pivot by softening some of its match-ups.
 

Deck Knight

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The last Ability I'll sort of put out here before discussing everything with KrazyCake is No Guard. What No Guard does is give Kitsunoh's support and offensive spreads a minor boost by granting perfect accuracy to Meteor Mash, Iron Tail, Shadow Strike as attacks and Super Fang, Will-O-Wisp, and Toxic as Support / Status moves. In return Kitsunoh can't count on Fire Blast misses and if it comes into a Stone Edge the move will always connect. It will also be able to tag threats like Landorus-T with a Wisp Burn if it switches in on a Fly turn. Iron Tail itself has a Defense lowering effect and if you use it with Steelium-Z, Corkscrew Crash becomes 180 BP, definitely enough to threaten many opponents if they get a -1 from either Shadow Strike OR Iron Tail.
 
I have a feeling that because of Regenerator's overall rating as a great ability, people will refuse to consider it regardless of it if fits Kitsunoh. So I'd like to put forth an ability that is more niche that also happens to take advantage of Kitsunoh's talents: Infiltrator.
Kitsunoh's most prominent role as a utility pivot would only further be enhanced in exchange for paralysis immunity in Limber.

- Wil-o-wisp/Toxic
- Shadow Strike/Knock Off
- Defog
- U-Turn

With Infiltrator, Kitsunoh can now spread status or attack optimal matches through substitutes. This can exponentially help in preventing set up by spreading that crucial status regardless of substitute, as most things setting up a substitute are doing so to resist status moves. Knock Off or Shadow Strike provide more offensive disruption, being able to remove their item even through a substitute or attacking them plainly with Shadow Strike. Because Infiltrator also ignores screens, Shadow Strike is going to hit hard regardless. This is true of all Kitsunoh's attacks, meaning if you wanted a more offensive oriented Kitsunoh for some reason, it would then have the potential to function as a revenge killer with the investment in atk over hp. Things such as Substitute Mega-Alazkazam, Mega-Mawile, Jirachi, Bisharp, etc suddenly aren't as dangerous. This gives Kitsunoh the necessary offensive upgrade without actually making him more offensive in any tangible way, such as Tough Claws would actually see Kitsunoh hit harder. The offensive boost is situational to your opponent having defensive boosts and allow for Kitsunoh's roles as utility, pivot, and scout to be expanded on flexibly. Lastly is the fact that I think most of you would find Infiltrator more appealing as a second option to Limber, which are on more equal footing on their pure ability usefulness.
 

cbrevan

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Kitsunoh is not a bad pokemon, in fact it's one of the handful of viable Defoggers in the metagame, and we shouldn't be treating it as if it's some niche borderline unplayable Pokemon. A lot of the abilities in this thread seem to be doing so, with many of them trying to directly answer some flaw in a Pokemon that is perfectly viable. While this is an easy, and in my opinion, rather brainless route to go, I disagree with that style of updating. Our CAP's do not have to be perfect. Pokemon should have clear, exploitable flaws in them; that is the entire reason why our viability rankings are a spectrum and not a binary "good" and "bad". As such, I'm not sure why Intimidate, Fluffy, Serene Grace, Regenorator, or any of the other extremely competitive abilities are seeing any sort of real discussion. Intimidate and Fluffy are very, very good; we're now switching into Pokemon and U-turning back out to stack debuffs, or taking literally half the damage from whatever contact moves that happen to hit us. Kitsunoh already has a great defensive typing and access to Will-o-Wisp to augment it's phsyical bulk, so we would we want to make it even bulkier? Levitate just remove a weakness, and even provide an immunity, which is more than a bit much considering the number of Pokemon running EdgeQuake coverage that rely on it's Ground weakness to push enough damage. Serene Grace I just can't lol, Kitsunoh would be the most cancerous Pokemon in the tier with it's ability to cheese its way past slower Pokemon with the golden combination of Shadowstrike and Iron Head. If not for the competitive implications of the ability, we should avoid it simply because it would be the most infuriating thing to battle. Regenorator is also overly powerful as the best Kitsunoh set is bulky running Will-o-Wisp and Defog; it likes to play as an offensive pivot that takes advantage of it's typing to get in and out of scratches. It's also held back primarily by it's lack of reliable recovery, which Regen just so happens to fix entirely. Some LO Regen offensive set might be dicks overall, but Regen on a defensive set is definitely beyond on the scope of these updates. Overall, I'm partial to the significantly less powerful and more situational abilities, such as Iron Fist and Infiltrator. These abilities are more in line with Kitsunoh's current options, although admittedly, Iron Fist is far better than Frisk and Forewarn on any set running Meteor Mash, but at the very least they aren't directly attempting to mitigate Kitsunoh's flaws in the overly top fashion other abilities do. The majority of other options seeing discussion just seem to be pushing the line to far in regards to buffing Kitsunoh.

Edit: Removed mentions of Grassy Surge since I just now noticed Deck banned it from discussion earlier. Cool.
 
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Does Kitsunoh really need an update to its ability? While I know that giving it an ability undoubtedly makes it better, does it actually need it?

I like its role, and where it currently sits, and think it could do with acting as a scout to continue, even if that boils down to now finding out what moves are available. I've placed my favourite ideas towards the top, the ones I'm less supportive of myself, lower down.

Cursed Body; this is my favourite suggestion. I know that Voodoom has it, but given its immunity to Fighting/Poison/Normal, it can take actually help set up (if susceptible to RNG) for another mon to come on in, disabling a move that they're weak against, and allowing them a free switch in, hopefully. Theoretically working with Voodoom, or Kerfluffle it could spam out Cursed Body blocks, or a Z-Parting Shot to keep healed up.

Trace, Anticipation, Forewarn; All much of a muchness, really. They allow you to identify Ability, Super Effective Moves, Most Powerful, which matchs Frisk for set discovery.

Insomnia/Vital Spirit; Sleep immunity, to walk into Spore's, or Yawn's to help scout. We have Paralysis and Toxic immunity, so why not a Sleep Immunity as an alternative? Alternatively, Wonder Skin may be pretty cool - trading Paralysis Immunity for 50% Status Move immunity would not be overshadowing. Whether you can justify a Ghost having a Skin however is a different matter.

Long Reach; Others can extol its virtues better than I - but giving it the ability to ignore contact effects sounds like it could really help with its ability to U-Turn and take less damage.

Bulletproof; I'm a little unsure about this, but with its typing, it already ignores 7 such moves, and resists 11 of the moves, while giving immunity to Victini's Searing Shot, Shadow Ball, and Mud Bomb which it would otherwise take double from. Given that it's a wispy ghost cat/devil dog fox thing with a creepy metal faceplate, having bomb type moves continue to go through it seems to make sense from a flavour perspective to me. it may have some unforeseen issues in later gens though should there be some more Fire or Dark Type bomb moves added in (to clarify; for a minor ability update, giving it Bulletproof may end up being too powerful) to a wider access.

Pressure; This is pretty powerful, on a mon with so many immunities and resistances, but it's also pretty weak defensively outside of that. Pressure helps with the scout by possibly forcing opponents to switch or use less powerful moves in favour of saving the PP for mon's who are actively going to need it after they've "wasted" 2-4PP on something like a Sash Kitsunoh. That said, I'm not entirely behind this as a concept, so feel free to ignore it.
 
I personally support Bulletproof the most out of all abilities as of right now, because it'd give an immunity to Shadow Ball. There aren't really any other relevant immunities because the other moves are already resisted by Kitsunoh and/or aren't competitively relevant. Sure Victini has Searing Shot, but no one uses Victini much with it, and it tends to choose V-Create. The immunity to Shadow Ball would solidify Kit's matchup against Alakazam, Gengar, and Tapu Lele, forcing them to opt for the weaker HP Fire instead. Sure more ballistic moves might be added in the future, but I doubt it'd be overwhelming because if anything, the 'mons in CAP that want to beat Kit would just have to keep the ability in mind and work around it with the moves we have nowadays.

Essentially, I support Bulletproof because it gives Kitsunoh a better matchup against Ghost and/or Psychic types, while not being particularly overwhelming outside of that.
 
How does Bulletproof help Kitsunoh's role as a scout, it's most popular defog/wisp set, or act as a meaningful flavor ability when there's nothing remotely bulletproof about Kitsunoh? I'm lost as to how that would be in anyway a nuanced enhancement to Kitsunoh. At least about Iron Fist you can say it buffs a pseudo-signature stab in Meteor Mash. Bulletproof just comes off as a cheap quasi-immunity to Ghost moves in that Shadow Ball is the most widely received coverage and most consistent stab for Ghost type. I can't find anything to get behind in giving it Bulletproof.
 
Bulletproof helps scout far more than say, Long Reach or Iron Fist, because it can now switch into the likes of Tapu Lele and test the waters to see what set it is running now that it wouldn't have to fear Shadow Ball. Even then, more so than helping it Scout, which it has minimal effects, Bulletproof is a defensive ability that benefits Kitsunoh's pivoting because it widens the amount of Pokemon it can switch in on with its meager defensive statistics. It's an alternative to all the offense-boosting abilities that are being discussed that have a very different goal in mind.
Long Reach I personally do like, although my one issue is that it actually makes it more difficult to scout because you'd no longer be able to know if the Tomohawk is defensive vs offensive initially, or if the Garchomp is tank compared to say, Choice Scarf. Rocky Helmet damage would usually give it away.
 
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I like Bulletproof, as helps with bulk through a new immunity to Shadow Ball but does not significantly affect it. It is a moderate defensive addition for those who were discussing defensive additions like fur coat. I also like Iron Fist as an offensive option, being, again, the most moderate one.

I don't see Long Reach working out often. It may reduce chip damage, but the examples of rocky helmet, iron barbs and rough skin are not all that frequent. Therefore, I don't think that it will not have that significant of an impact.

I think that we all want an ability that boosts Kitsunoh's viability, even if just a little bit. A lot of people just want to make sure that we don't overdo it. That is why I like Bulletproof and Iron Fist, as they improve viability, but are not as significant as other options mentioned. The fact that they are some of the least impactful of the defensive and offensive options, respectively, while still improving viability makes them great options in my opinion.
 
Kitsunohs new ability will be polled soon so while we wait let's get to work on its competitive movepool. Remember that Kitsunoh is meant to be "the Ultimate Scout" so try to keep scouting in mind when suggesting a new move, also try to remember that this is a minor update so please don't suggest anything too crazy see what I did there? Moves should be suggested in the same format as Moveset Submissions!

I'll be stricter with this then I was in the ability discussion so please try and avoid making short posts that don't contribute to the discussion.

Moveset submissions should be submitted in this format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Sucker Punch
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Stone Edge
Ability: Guts
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Because of CAP X's Fire typing, Flare Blitz does a lot of damage.
  • Sucker Punch allows it priority, as well as the ability to handle Slowking.
  • Stone Edge allows it to OHKO Talonflame.
  • U-Turn can be used to scout, as well as abuse predicted switches.
  • Choice Band is used to amplify damage and fulfil CAP X's role as a wallbreaker
  • In case CAP X gets hit by status conditions, Guts raises its damage output to even higher levels.

New moves can only be suggested if they are a part of a whole moveset, so don't go around making posts just to suggest a new move. All new moves need to be accompanied with a thorough explanation and accurate, relevant calcs to support them. Your ability to provide relevant calcs reflects your experience and knowledge of the metagame, so it's extremely important to include them in your post. If you want to get damage calculations then PS! has is very own up to date damage calculator!

Remember to think twice before suggesting new moves as Kitsunoh is already a viable Pokemon without them! Submissions will be open for 3-4 days (I'll make a 24hr warning post beforehand).
 

snake

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Regardless of what stage this is, we can't make competitive moveset submissions without even knowing what abilities are even up for slate. We can't be sure our calcs are accurate, which Cake calls for in his thread update.
 
If nothing else in the meanwhile -

Name: Flip the Bird
Move 1: Parting Shot / U-Turn
Move 2: Trick
Move 3: Shadow Strike
Move 4: Meteor Mash / Iron Head
Ability: Limber / Frisk / [Hidden Ability]
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • This is a variation on the typical U-Turn set, trading its current ability to do damage, and instead hurt a mon's ability to attack. It would partner well with a slow U-Turner, like Malaconda (who also provides Rapid Spin aid) to take the hit and allow it to come in unmolested, while providing the ability to defend against incoming attacks.
  • Despite Parting Shots scarce availability (Persian-A, Silvally, Pangoro and Kerfluffle - with only one of those viable), it provides a nice little counterpoint to Kerfluffle, in that it can come in on fairy types, and either threaten with Steel STAB, or force a switch and cause the debuff on who they bring in to counter it. It allows the scout to maintain a form of momentum that hard switching currently does. This is at the expense of coverage against Psychic Types like Megazam, or Dark ones like Voodoom or Malaconda.
  • Trick+Scarf causes some uncomfortable options, as ever, while allowing the momentum to be maintained by quick U-Turns or Parting Shots.
  • Ability choice is unaffected and player choice, really, including the as yet undecided Hidden Ability.
 
I went through the list of G5-7 additions to find interesting moves flavour-wise; I am not going to submit any moveset but here are some potential ideas to discuss (even if just as an anticipation of the full movepool stage):

- Autotomize
- Destiny Bond
- Final Gambit
- Grudge
- Hone Claws
- Memento
- Parting Shot
- Play Rough
- Psychic Fangs
- Reflect Type
- Smart Strike
- Snarl
- Wild Charge
- Zen Headbutt
 

Deck Knight

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Name: Shadow Fox
Move 1: Transform
Move 2: Shadow Strike
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp
Move 4: Defog / Substitute / Pain Split
Ability: Frisk / Limber / [Hidden Ability]
Item: Normalium-Z / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

  • Kitsunoh's original purpose was as a scout, and while team preview has made some of that obsolete, there is one move that can reveal an opponent's entire set: Transform. Kitsunoh is almost the perfect platform for it, having many opportunities to switch in due to typing, enough Speed to use it before an opponent can use an SE move, and strong residual damage resistance.
  • Shadow Strike is a fairly reliable damaging STAB for when Kitsunoh chooses not to Transform.
  • Will-O-Wisp burns opponents and gives Kitsunoh more opportunities to Transform or Shadow Strike.
  • Last slot is a utility slot - Defog removed hazards, Substitute eases prediction and creates a wall to Transform behind, and Pain Split can work against healthy opponents to keep Kitsunoh in the game.
  • Max HP and Speed for fast and maximum bulk transformations.
  • Z-Transform restores Kit to full health before transforming and makes it more able to take a Knock Off , Leftovers is more consistent healing.
  • Max HP Kirsunoh is a middle ground on absolute stats. It roughly replicates high Base HP sweepers like Crucibelle and Excadrill and is either at parity or significantly more bulky than walls like Ferrothorn or Mega Sableye. Low PP after transformation hurts it a bit.

Transform Kitsunoh is all about information and counterplay. It doesn't have any new attacking moves but a well-timed Transform can give you support you otherwise wouldn't have available. It enhances the WispyKit set by also giving it more scouting potential.
 
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Name: Hone Claws
Move 1: Hone Claws
Move 2: Shadow Strike
Move 3: Meteor Mash
Move 4: Play Rough
Ability: (pending)
Item: Ghostium Z / Fairium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Hone Claws boosts Kitsunoh's Attack by one stage and patches up accuracy issues with its other moves.
  • Shadow Strike and Meteor Mash are reliable STAB moves with useful secondary effects that aid in breaking down mons.
  • Play Rough rounds out the set by granting super effective coverage on Cyclohm, Garchomp, Mega Sableye, Tomohawk, and Zygarde.
  • Ability is dependent on the results of the HA poll.
  • Ghostium Z gives Kitsunoh a one time STAB nuke. The number of viable Ghost resists in the metagame is rather low, and most of them hate Play Rough.
  • Fairium Z allows Kitsunoh to muscle past the aforementioned targets (most require chip damage and/or a Hone Claws boost, calcs in the hide tag below).
  • Standard offensive EV spread and nature.
252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 340-400 (94.9 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 244-288 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 250-296 (60.3 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 276-326 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 312-368 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 508-598 (141.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 364-430 (119.7 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 374-442 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 412-486 (98.8 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
This set seems kinda neat, but it probably isn't *that* great. It's still donked hard by most fast mons and Choice Scarf users, and it struggles to break things once the Z move is burned because +1 isn't all that big of a boost. Also faces competition from SD Mimikyu, which has an easier time setting up thanks to its ability, and hits harder than Kitsunoh after one boost. Despite this, Hone Claws and Play Rough aren't just flavor options, they do have competitive implications, so it'd probably be good to analyze these during the competitive stage of the process.
 
Name: Trick or treat
- Trick-or-Treat
- Shadow Strike
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
Ability: (pending)
Item: Ghostium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This boi is gonna GO PLACES. Ready to kill everything and everyone. (honestly a more defensive trick or treat, wisp, defog and turn set would be nicer but bLEUGH)
(defensive tomo)
+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (normally it's a 4hko, but im puttin in the fact its a ghost too)
(offensive tomo)
252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kitsunoh: 205-244 (68.1 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tomohawk: 362-428 (103.1 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(toxapex)
+1 252 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (this one is a ghost type too cus tricku or treatu)

[hide/]
 
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