Celebi (Gen 4, Update)

[Cerulean21]

(In order to see how far I am atm, I'm posting this. Will work more tomorrow, but I'm too shattered now, and I need some sleep...)

Status: Under Construction.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi

Changes:

• Rewrite the whole analysis
• Add Team Options section
• Add team options to every set
• Test and remove less useful sets
  • Removed "Sub Seed"
  • Removed "More Leech Seed and Calm Mind"
  • Removed "Cleric" and put Heal Bell as option into "Defensive"
  • Currently testing "Trick Orb"
• Rearrange sets according to their use

To-Do-List:

• Defensive Done
• Tinkerbell Done
• CM Passer Incomplete
• Physical Baton Pass Incomplete
• Offensive Calm Mind Incomplete
• Uber Lead Incomplete
• Choice Scarf Incomplete
• Choice Specs Incomplete
• Perish Song Incomplete
• Life Orb Sweeper Incomplete
• Lead Incomplete
• OTHER OPTIONS
• TEAM OPTIONS

******************************************

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Thunder Wave / Leech Seed
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Recover and base 100 defences make Celebi one of the sturdiest Pokemon in OU. Thunder Wave is useful for crippling fast sweepers such as Salamence, Heatran and Infernape, who love to switch in on Celebi expecting a weak Grass Knot. It also helps Celebi in defeating offensive Gyarados, especially those who carry Bounce. Leech Seed on the other hand can quickly frustrate the opponent. It also causes switches, which, accompanied by Stealth Rock and Spikes can quickly add up a lot of secundary damage. Grass Knot is a basic STAB attack that will take a chunk out of some of Celebi's heavier opponents, namely Gyarados, Swampert and Tyranitar. The last slot depends on the trainers needs. Hidden Power Fire hits the steel types that thrive the OU metagame, most notably Scizor and gives Celebi a solid way to deal with Metagross and Forretress. Hidden Power Ice helps against Dragon types and is Celebi's best option against Gliscor, whereas Earth Power will keep Heatran from switching in freely and hurts Metagross, Magnezone and Jirachi more than Hidden Power Fire, but has very limited utility otherwise. </p>

<p>Celebi has various other support options that can be used in the first or fourth slot: Recover and Light Screen are available for Screen support, whereas Toxic coupled with Leech Seed can be a pain to take down. Celebi also gets Stealth Rock up, should your team require it and can set up Trick Room, but this is better left to slower Pokemon. Heal Bell is an option if you need a Cleric. However, with Celebi's weakness to Pursuit and the speed of today's metagame, this becomes a lesser option as you will rarely find the time to nurse your Pokemon. It can prove useful on a Stall team, but other than that, good luck on finding a free turn without giving things like Tyranitar or Heatran a free switch in.</p>

<p>Due to being mainly a support Pokemon, this Celebi needs less support from other team members. Heatran, however, pairs up nicely with Celebi, building the famous CeleTran combo. Together with a bulky water like Vaporeon and Suicune, these form a very sturdy defensive core that can handle most threats easily. Celebi does well in handling bulky Waters and Grounds, which can clear the way for various sweepers like DD Salamence, Kingdra, offensive Gyarados and Tyranitar, all of which appreciate Swampert out of the way. Appart from handling bulky Waters and Grounds, Celebi also makes a pretty decent counter to Breelom and Gyarados, as well as Lucario that use Stone Edge over Crunch or Ice Punch.</p>

[SET]
name: Tinkerbell
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Psychic / Hidden Power Fire / U-turn
move 4: Rest / Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 232 HP / 244 SpA / 32 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is a more offensive approach to use Celebi and a solid way to deter many of Celebi's usual counters. Most things that switch into Celebi will not enjoy being crippled by paralysis, which makes you faster than the myriad of offensive Pokemon eager to blast through one of Celebi's seven weaknesses. Leaf Storm, backed up by a Life Orb and heavy EV investment, is a new definition of pain, smashing even a Max HP Tyranitar's defenses for an OHKO with the aid of Stealth Rock.</p>

<p>The second attack depends on what you want Celebi to handle. Psychic is a second STAB attack that will easily dispatch of Breloom, Heracross, Infernape and Gengar, and will hurt Flying types more. Hidden Power Fire will easily OHKO Forretress and Scizor and will deal hefty damage to other Steel types not named Heatran as well. U-turn is a nice way to get Celebi out of battle after it has paralysed something or after the Special Attack drop from Leaf Storm.</p>

<p> The choice between Rest and Recover mainly comes down to preference. Rest works well with Natural Cure, allowing you to fully recover all HP, as you will most likely be forced to switch after a Leaf Storm anyway. Recover on the other hand can be used to scout for full paralysis before switching out.</p>

<p>Heatran has been mentioned before and of course the CeleTran combo works brilliantly here too. This Celebi works nicely with Latias of you opt for Hidden Power Fire over Psychic as it will easily get rid of Scizor and Tyranitar, two of Latias' biggest counters. Slower attackers like Machamp, Tyranitar and Dragonite will appreciate the Paralysis support that this set offers. Obviously, this set has trouble with Heatran, so make sure that you have a solid counter. Vaporeon makes a fine team mate, countering Infernape and Heatran as well as supporting Celebi with Wish on the switch in. Stealth Rock and Spikes will prove very useful for this set. A strong pursuit user like Tyranitar pairs up pretty well with this Celebi, being able to pursuit Blissey and Latias.</p>

[SET]
name: Calm Mind Passer
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Grass Knot / Psychic
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover / Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Psychic / Earth Power
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: U-turn / Trick
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Signal Beam / U-turn / Trick
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Physical Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Recover / Substitute / Zen-Headbutt
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Uber Lead
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Stealth Rock / Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Perish Song
move 1: U-turn
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Perish Song
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Life Orb Sweeper
move 1: Recover
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power / U-turn
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: U-turn
item: Occa Berry / Focus Sash
nature: Modest
evs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

 

[Darkmalice]

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Thunder Wave / Leech Seed
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Recover
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Recover and base 100 defences make Celebi one of the sturdiest Pokemon in OU. Thunder Wave is useful for crippling fast sweepers such as Salamence, Heatran, and Infernape, who love to switch in on Celebi expecting a weak Grass Knot. It also helps Celebi in defeating offensive Gyarados, especially those who carry Bounce. Leech Seed on the other hand can quickly frustrate the opponent. It also causes switches, which, accompanied by Stealth Rock and Spikes can quickly add up a lot of secundary damage. Grass Knot is a basic STAB attack that will take a chunk out of some of Celebi's heavier opponents, namely Gyarados, Swampert, and Tyranitar. The last slot is up to user preference (sounds better). Hidden Power Fire hits the steel types that thrive the OU metagame, most notably Scizor, and gives Celebi a solid way to deal with Metagross and Forretress. Hidden Power Ice helps against Dragon types and is Celebi's best option against Gliscor, whereas Earth Power will keep Heatran from switching in freely and hurts Metagross, Magnezone, and Jirachi more than Hidden Power Fire, but has very limited utility otherwise. When using Earth Power, it is recommended to use Thunder Wave, so Heatran and Infernape cannot swap into two of Celebi's attacks.</p>

<p>Celebi has various other support options that can be used in the first or fourth slot: Reflect and Light Screen are available for Screen support, whereas Toxic coupled with Leech Seed can be a pain to take down Toxic doesn't help Celebi's walling capabilities. I think you need something like "rapidly drain your opponent's HP". Celebi also gets Stealth Rock remove"up", should your team require it, and it can set up Trick Room, but this is better left to slower Pokemon. Heal Bell is an option if you need a Cleric. However, with Celebi's weakness to Pursuit and the speed of today's metagame, this becomes a lesser option as you will rarely find the time to nurse your Pokemon. It can prove useful on a Stall team, but other than that, good luck on finding a free turn without giving things like Tyranitar andHeatran a free switch in.</p>

<p>Due to being mainly a support Pokemon, this Celebi needs less support from other team members. Heatran, however, pairs up nicely with Celebi, covering each other's weaknesses, building the famous CeleTran combo. Together with a bulky water like Vaporeon and Suicune, these form a very sturdy defensive core that can handle most threats easily. Celebi does well in handling bulky Waters and Grounds, which can clear the way for various sweepers like DD Salamence, Kingdra, offensive Gyarados, and Tyranitar, all of which appreciate Swampert out of the way. Appart from handling bulky Waters and Grounds, Celebi also makes a pretty decent counter to Breelom and Gyarados, as well as Lucario that use Stone Edge over Crunch andIce Punch.</p>

[SET]
name: Tinkerbell
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Psychic / Hidden Power Fire / U-turn
move 4: Rest / Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 232 HP / 244 SpA / 32 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is a more offensive approach to use Celebi and a solid way to deter many of Celebi's usual counters. Most things that switch into Celebi will not enjoy being crippled by paralysis, which makes you faster than the myriad of offensive Pokemon eager to blast through one of Celebi's seven weaknesses. Leaf Storm, backed up by a Life Orb and heavy EV investment, is a new definition of pain, smashing even a Max HP Tyranitar's defenses for an OHKO with the aid of Stealth Rock.</p>

<p>The second attack depends on what you want Celebi to handle. Psychic is a second STAB attack that will easily dispatch of Breloom, Heracross, Infernape, and Gengar, and will hurt Flying types more than Leaf Storm. Hidden Power Fire will easily OHKO Forretress and Scizor and will deal hefty damage to other Steel types not named Heatran remove "as well". U-turn is a nice way to get Celebi out of battle after it has paralysed something or after the Special Attack drop from Leaf Storm.</p>

<p>remove spaceThe choice between Rest and Recover mainly comes down to preference. Rest works well with Natural Cure, allowing you to fully recover all HP, as you will most likely be forced to switch after a Leaf Storm anyway. Recover, on the other hand, can be used to scout for full paralysis before switching out.</p>

<p>Heatran has been mentioned before, and of course, the CeleTran combo works brilliantly here too. This Celebi works nicely with Latias if you opt for Hidden Power Fire over Psychic as it will easily get rid of Scizor and Tyranitar, two of Latias' biggest counters. Slower attackers like Machamp, Tyranitar, and Dragonite will appreciate the Paralysis support that this set offers. Obviously, this set has trouble with Heatran, so make sure that you have a solid counter. Vaporeon makes a fine team mate, countering Infernape and Heatran as well as supporting Celebi with Wish on the switch in. Stealth Rock and Spikes will prove very useful for this set. A strong pursuit user like Tyranitar pairs up pretty well with this Celebi, being able to pursuit Blissey and Latias.</p>

Just a note, we normally use a comma after "and." There were many commas missing, and also you used "or" when you should have used "and."

Also, I don't see why HP Ice and Earth Power aren't viable choices on the Tinkerbell set. If they work on the standard set, they should work even better with in the Tinkerbell set. Only mention these choices in set comments however, because I don't want to be the cause of slashtis.

 

[diinbong]

The Choice Specs set is outdated atm. I don't see Hidden Power Fighting being worth it when Leaf Storm is your primary attacking move (it will beat Tyranitar and the rare Weavile anyway). Hidden Power Ice isn't a cool move to be locked into, especially considering Psychic already hits the Dragons (minus Latias) really hard. Even defensive Calm Mind Latias can set up on HP Ice with Recover. Earth Power hits Steels who resist your STAB moves, Earth Power for Metagross and Heatran, and Hidden Power Fire if you're more worried about Skarmory, Forretress, and Scizor. Signal Beam is kind of overkill at this point, because Cresselia and Uxie are better Tricked Specs and frail Psychics are not only uncommon, but are hit hard by Leaf Storm. U-turn is awesome to ease prediction and not reveal the Choice Specs. The set should probably look something like this:

move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Trick / U-turn

Also, I feel that the Choice Scarf set should decide between offensive revenge-killer and attacker. The in-between thing it's doing right now is kinda silly. Its EVs should probably be enough to outspeed +1 neutral nature Salamence, and Hidden Power Fire should be removed imo. Not only is an unboosted, unSTAB Hidden Power bad to be locked into, but it doesn't really (edit: revenge kill) anything notable imo . I also don't get why Perish Song is a different set... you could just add this paragraph to the Defensive set and remove the entire Perish Song set:

Many stall teams will find themselves helpless against a "last Pokemon" Curselax or Calm Mind / Rest Suicune since they will be unable to pseudo-haze it out via Whirlwind or Roar and status attacks such as Toxic will be futile due to rest. However, with Perish Song, Celebi can simply switch in, Perish Song, and wait out the turns until the last Pokemon is KOed once the count hits zero. Perish Song also provides a safe way to stop most Baton Pass teams that lack a Soundproof Pokemon.

 

[Sheshi]

Hidden Power Ice isn't a cool move to be locked into, especially considering Psychic already hits the Dragons (minus Latias) really hard.

HP Ice can also take Gliscor out. Psychic does not really get that much coverage in OU anyway. HP Ice is better in my opinion because you can hit the Dragons for super effective damage and you can knock problematic Gliscor off.

Hidden Power Fire should be removed imo. Not only is an unboosted, unSTAB Hidden Power bad to be locked into, but it doesn't really KO anything notable imo.

Scizor is one of the most common switch-ins to Celebi. U-Turn OHKO's. HP Fire can OHKO Scizor before it gets the chance to use U-Turn, so I think it would be worth it on the specs set. Either HP Fire or Ice. I personally believe that the Specs set should look a little more like this:

Celebi @ Choice Specs
Timid Nature, 252 SPA, 252 SPE, 6 DEF
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: HP Fire / HP Ice
move 3: Earth Power
move 4: Trick

Leaf Storm has a much higher base power than Psychic. HP Fire can OHKO Scizors, Forretress and most other Steel type Pokemon that switch in. HP Ice can take down Dragon Pokemon (IE Salamence) that try to set up on Celebi. Earth Power gets Heatran that also switches into Celebi. Trick is to remove Specs when it isn't needed. With max speed, only Latias outspeeds Celebi.

For the tinkerbell set, is U-Turn really worth slashing next to Earth Power or HP Fire? Earth Power and HP Fire are much better on Celebi than U-Turn is in my opinion.

 

[diinbong]

448 Atk vs 331 Def & 176 HP (90 Base Power): 132 - 156 (75.00% - 88.64%)

This is a Timid Choice Specs Celebi's Psychic against Salamence (assuming Salamence is -SpD, but 2HKOes neutral anyway). It has a 92.31% chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock.

448 Atk vs 196 Def & 301 HP (140 Base Power): 343 - 405 (113.95% - 134.55%)

This is the same Celebi using Leaf Storm against Flygon. Obviously an OHKO.

448 Atk vs 236 Def & 386 HP (90 Base Power): 184 - 217 (47.67% - 56.22%)

Timid Celebi's Choice Specs Psychic against 252 HP Dragonite. A 2HKO with Stealth Rock or Sandstorm in play, and an 80.67% chance without.

448 Atk vs 186 Def & 354 HP (140 Base Power): 363 - 427 (102.54% - 120.62%)

Celebi's Leaf Storm against max HP Gliscor. Using HP Ice here would obviously be foolish.

448 Atk vs 296 Def & 302 HP (70 Base Power): 152 - 180 (50.33% - 59.60%)

The same Celebi's HP Ice against 4/0 Latias. This is really the only debateable use of HP Ice, but defensive and Choice Specs Latias still beat you.

What I'm trying to prove here is that it's better to have neutral-hitting high-powered STAB moves than unSTAB Hidden Powers on Choice sets. Hidden Power Ice is way too obscure for this set and not competitively viable.

Scizor is one of the most common switch-ins to Celebi. U-Turn OHKO's.

Also, you took the second sentence you quoted out of context. Unless I didn't make myself clear enough, HP Fire doesn't really revenge kill anything notable (which is the primary use of Scarf Celebi imo).

EDIT: ok, first of all, if you want to prove a point do the calculations yourself. secondly, I was trying to show you with these calculations that HP Ice is unnecessary on Choice Specs Celebi. I'm not even talking about Hidden Power Fire right now... this is a completely different subject. Earlier I was arguing that HP Fire is a worse option on Choice Scarf Celebi because Hidden Power Ice is so needed to revenge kill the Dragons and Hidden Power Fire does not get any significant revenge kills on the Choice Scarf set.

Just please consider this question: "why do I need HP Ice on Choice Specs Celebi when I already OHKO Gliscor, Flygon, and Salamence with Stealth Rock up and outspeed and 2HKO Dragonite?". If you can seriously answer that I will eat my hat!

 

[Sheshi]

How did I take that particular sentence out of context? You made yourself perfectly clear, however, I am saying that HP fire has the ability to OHKO Scizor, which is one of the most common switch-ins to Celebi (as stated above).

So if we have a high powered STAB move like Psychic then Scizor comes in and threatens with U-Turn or Pursuit, what then? I don't see Leaf Storm or Psychic being especially useful in this particular circumstance. (I used Scizor as the example since it is a common switch-in to Celebi).
The only thing I found wrong with your argument was and I quote:

Not only is an unboosted, unSTAB Hidden Power bad to be locked into, but it doesn't really KO anything notable imo

I found HP Fire is useful enough to warrant the risk associated with using Specs. But the main point I found wrong was "It doesn't really KO anything notable"
Scizor, the number one Pokemon in OU, not being a notable KO? For me, that's a pretty good thing there. HP Ice is the same. It can KO Salamence, Dragonite and Gliscor. Some pretty dangerous Pokemon there. Not a notable KO? Lol.

So your calculations prove that high powered STAB moves are fine. Ok. So what about the Hidden Power moves? I notice you haven't done any for them. Could you please do so?

 

[Moveset Master]

Is your first set serious? I thought that the first moveset is supposed to signify the best moveset for the particular pokemon. First off you have two offensive moves on a Celebi, one of which is hidden power fire. Your only defensive move is thunder wave which you happened to put OVER leech seed, which is idiotic in my opinion. Are you expecting to beat everything by thunder waving and recovering? The only defense that this Celebi has is that ONE move...which is so easy to get past. I honestly have never even seen anybody use this moveset...

I guess I would just like you to explain this to me, thanks. If you'd like, I can help you make a better one.

 

[DJXO9]

Is your first set serious? I thought that the first moveset is supposed to signify the best moveset for the particular pokemon. First off you have two offensive moves on a Celebi, one of which is hidden power fire. Your only defensive move is thunder wave which you happened to put OVER leech seed, which is idiotic in my opinion. Are you expecting to beat everything by thunder waving and recovering? The only defense that this Celebi has is that ONE move...which is so easy to get past. I honestly have never even seen anybody use this moveset...

I guess I would just like you to explain this to me, thanks. If you'd like, I can help you make a better one.

Its more the usage of a particular set. The most ones get put on first and so on. I for one have used this set often. Grass Knot is for the STAB, HP Fire is for the obvious Scizor switch-in, and Thunderwave is for spreading status. This set is very defensive.

 

[Colonel M]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the Baton Passers sets should merge. Thoughts?

 

[diinbong]

The Baton Pass set is dificult given the difference between physical and special, but if anything something like

[SET]
name: Physical Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Swords Dance / Calm Mind
move 3: Seed Bomb / Grass Knot
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly / Timid
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe

then mention in the set comments about Attack EVs if you're going physical, and a possible secondary attack in Psychic and Zen Headbutt. Other support moves like Leech Seed or Substitute should be mentioned as well. In my opinion Zen Headbutt is always a lesser option though...seriously what are you hitting? Tyranitar is obviously not hit by it, Scizor and other Steels are resistant, Heatran resists it, Latias resists it. The only switch-ins you're really getting are Infernape and Salamence/Dragonite, Infernape who is beating you anyway unless you Zen Headbutt on the switch, Dragonite who you outspeed and get the pass off anyway, and Salamence who IS MEAN.

 

[diinbong]

I see supermarth64 is taking over Celebi. I'm locking this thread for now.