[COMPLETED] Talonflame

So I've recently been inspired by Bulk Up Braviary's playstyle and wanted to emulate that with Talonflame because of its fantastic ability and pretty good defensive typing. Even though it doesn't necessarily share the same bulk as Braviary, it has the tools to become a pretty difficult threat to take down should the opponent lack specific Pokemon that can take it out through its Bulk Up boosts. Here is the set I used:

<p>name: Mono Attacker<br />
move 1: Bulk Up<br />
move 2: Brave Bird<br />
move 3: Roost<br />
move 4: Substitute<br />
ability: Gale Wings<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD<br />
nature: Careful</p>

The premise is relatively simple. Switch in on something that you can begin setting up against, such as Forretress, Ferrothorn, Donphan, Lucario, Aggron, Metagross, Excadrill, etc. Some teams don't actually have reliable answers to Bulk Up Talonflame. For instance, Rotom-W can struggle to take it down depending on its moveset (a lot don't run Thunderbolt, so HPump can be PP stalled) and even Tyranitar might end up losing if you get lucky with Stone Edge misses. Since I'm going mono Flying and am thus walled by stuff such as Aegislash and the aforementioned Tyranitar, I paired it with bulky Spikes Diggersby. You can also use Assault Vest Excadrill for Rapid Spin support.

I don't know why there isn't any Bulk Up set to begin with, but I actually really like this Talonflame variant. So far I've literally 6-0ed two teams with it alone (they weren't the greatest to be fair), lol. It performs very well in general from my experience though, netting several kills and being an overall bitch to deal with once its counters are removed or weakened, assuming the opponent has the specific Bulk Up counter in the first place.
 

alexwolf

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I prefer WoW over Substitute to deal with Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Hippowdon, while also having much more utility early and mid-game other than forcing switches. You can also check Swords Dance Aegislash with WoW, which would otherwise boost in your face and OHKO you with Shadow Sneak. You should also probably use enough Speed to outurn Excadrill and burn it before it OHKOes with Rock Slide, as well as other physical attackers near this Speed benchmark, such as Mega Kangaskhan and Mamoswine. Anyway, i definitely am ok with Bulk Up getting its own set, but WoW >>> Sub.
 
Well, Substitute was so useful when it comes to blocking status which otherwise destroys you instantly and stuff such as Leech Seed. You can set up a safe Substitute against dozens of Pokemon because of the amount of switches you force. With a few Bulk Ups, not even select neutral hits will break it. It also acts as a cushion against critical hits and Fake Out from Kangaskhan. Furthermore, you can PP stall for Stone Edge/Rock Slide/Hydro Pump misses and set up or recover for free. Substitute just makes it difficult to deal with. I wouldn't say WoW is far superior really, especially since it could miss and you lose.
 
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alexwolf

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The thing with WoW is that it makes Talonflame a much more useful Pokemon before the game is to the point where you can set up and sweep. It offers so much utility overall and deals with many of Talonflame's usual checks. Yeah Sub is good on a dedicated sweeping set, but from my experience the dedicated sweeping set has very limited utility until it can sweep, which is not that often actually, especially against competent opponents. Also, catching the Rock Slide / Stone Edge users on the switch with WoW is way better than SubRoost stalling them until they eventually miss (you can use them as set up bait anyway, as the next time you come in and the try to hit you with a rock move you will be at +2 Defense and they will be burned). Status blocking and PP stalling a few special attacks is nice, but WoW has much more applications.
 

Shroomisaur

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On the first set, I think that Overheat with a Naughty nature deserves a mention (if not a slash after Flare Blitz). Paired with a Life Orb, Overheat guarantees the OHKOs you need on Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Scizor, Excadrill, and Magnezone without any SpA investment and without throwing away 30-40% of your HP to recoil.
 

McGrrr

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So I've recently been inspired by Bulk Up Braviary's playstyle and wanted to emulate that with Talonflame because of its fantastic ability and pretty good defensive typing. Even though it doesn't necessarily share the same bulk as Braviary, it has the tools to become a pretty difficult threat to take down should the opponent lack specific Pokemon that can take it out through its Bulk Up boosts. Here is the set I used:

<p>name: Mono Attacker<br />
move 1: Bulk Up<br />
move 2: Brave Bird<br />
move 3: Roost<br />
move 4: Substitute<br />
ability: Gale Wings<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD<br />
nature: Careful</p>

The premise is relatively simple. Switch in on something that you can begin setting up against, such as Forretress, Ferrothorn, Donphan, Lucario, Aggron, Metagross, Excadrill, etc. Some teams don't actually have reliable answers to Bulk Up Talonflame. For instance, Rotom-W can struggle to take it down depending on its moveset (a lot don't run Thunderbolt, so HPump can be PP stalled) and even Tyranitar might end up losing if you get lucky with Stone Edge misses. Since I'm going mono Flying and am thus walled by stuff such as Aegislash and the aforementioned Tyranitar, I paired it with bulky Spikes Diggersby. You can also use Assault Vest Excadrill for Rapid Spin support.

I don't know why there isn't any Bulk Up set to begin with, but I actually really like this Talonflame variant. So far I've literally 6-0ed two teams with it alone (they weren't the greatest to be fair), lol. It performs very well in general from my experience though, netting several kills and being an overall bitch to deal with once its counters are removed or weakened, assuming the opponent has the specific Bulk Up counter in the first place.
I like the concept, but I think you're compromising Talonflame's potential with your EVs (they seem really confused). My several cents:

1. Why are you boosting Special Defense? What special attacks are you attempting to sponge? 359/260 is not very impressive regardless.
2. Without investment, you sit at 288 Speed, so you can't sub in front of a Timid Rotom. I think it more beneficial to raise speed. Beating base 100 would be what I'd aim for; allowing you an extra Bulk Up before taking a hit from Kangaskhan (and not losing out to Sucker Punch when your opponent figures out that Talonflame is slower). The most efficient way to do this is with Jolly and 48 EVs.
3. 248 HP is fine if you insist on bulkiness, but the remainder should be split between Attack and Defense to maximise the benefit from Bulk Up (that's the only way Substitute will actually survive hits).
4. +2 Brave Bird requires 4 EVs to OHKO Mega Gengar, but Talonflame is weak sauce without at least 2 Bulk Ups. Therefore, we're looking at Jolly / 248 HP / 4 Att / 208 Def / 48 Spe for maximum bulkiness, and 212 Att / 0 Def for maximum power.
 
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I've actually further discussed the set with other QC members in alexwolf and dragonuser and we came to the conclusion that 240 HP / 220 SpD / 48 Spe (iirc) @ Careful was the best spread to go with. This allows Talonflame to outspeed neutral-natured base 100s, specifically Adamant Mega Kangaskhan, by one point. The defensive EVs used allow Talonflame to retain its Substitute as it Roosts and defensive Rotom-W Volt Switches (probably the most relevant Pokemon in the current metagame and primary Talonflame counter). The Special Defense investment is honestly better than you might think. Special attackers that aren't super strong or anything become further setup bait.
 
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McGrrr

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I've actually further discussed the set with other QC members in alexwolf and dragonuser and we came to the conclusion that 240 HP / 220 SpD / 48 Spe (iirc) @ Careful was the best spread to go with. This allows Talonflame to outspeed neutral-natured base 100s, specifically Adamant Mega Kangaskhan, by one point. The defensive EVs used allow Talonflame to retain its Substitute as it Roosts and defensive Rotom-W Volt Switches (probably the most relevant Pokemon in the current metagame and primary Talonflame counter). The Special Defense investment is honestly better than you might think. Special attackers that aren't super strong or anything become further setup bait.
1. Roosting from low health risks Hydro Pump.
2. If we're not Roosting from low health, Substitute is comparable to Volt Switch damage: 89 HP Substitute v 0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 240 HP / 220+ SpD Talonflame: 75-88 (21 - 24.64%).
3. The situational advantage occurs when we have Substitute up and defensive Rotom decides to Volt Switch while we Roost (because it never breaks Sub). In this specific scenario, I concede that your EV spread has a tangible advantage.
4. However, by specialising in this way, we're working with a Talonflame that starts at 198 Attack and 178 Defense. To put things in to perspective; with 252 EVs, Timid Swellow has 199 Special Attack (go Boomburst!).
5. At +1, we're sitting at 297 Attack and 267 Defense, which isn't going anywhere fast. We're putting ourselves in a position where we need to dispose of counters, yet Talonflame still needs multiple turns to be threatening.
6. From October stats; 1/6 of Kangaskhan are Jolly & 1/5 of Rotom-Wash are Modest/Timid (and therefore deal more damage with neutral Volt Switch than Substitute).

Investing our Nature and 220 EVs into Special Defense is a huge compromise to the offensive capabilities of Talonflame. I also really don't see how we ever beat Tyranitar without more physical bulk; it just needs to spam Crunch instead of Stone Miss.
 
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Colonel M

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Just a quick tidbit on people adamant about using Acrobatics.

What could possibly be done is Natural Gift Salac. This allows Talonflame to overcome Tyranitar -- or at least dent it significantly. Max HP Tyranitar takes 73.26 - 87.12%, and then... uh... yeah that's probably the main issue.

I'm not sure if you would really want to run Natural Gift / Acrobatics / Flare Blitz / Roost or Steel Wing simply for the sake of bypassing Tyranitar and using Acrobatics. Meh.
 
I know it's completed, but I think it should be mentioned that investing 164 ev's into speed allows you too outspeed jolly Kanga by one point (you hit 329), which is extremely useful to either burn or weaken him with brave bird. Any lower, and you risk a prediction game, since Kanga runs max speed 80 % of the time (in my cases anyway), and will outspeed and kill with Sucker Punch, unless you predict perfectly, and I for one, don't wanna mess around with Kanga. Adamant is supposed to be the preferred nature on Kanga, but everyone seems to be running Jolly regardless, and it can really screw you over (I know it's kinda mentioned, but specifics are nice I guess? :P)
 

alexwolf

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I know it's completed, but I think it should be mentioned that investing 164 ev's into speed allows you too outspeed jolly Kanga by one point (you hit 329), which is extremely useful to either burn or weaken him with brave bird. Any lower, and you risk a prediction game, since Kanga runs max speed 80 % of the time (in my cases anyway), and will outspeed and kill with Sucker Punch, unless you predict perfectly, and I for one, don't wanna mess around with Kanga. Adamant is supposed to be the preferred nature on Kanga, but everyone seems to be running Jolly regardless, and it can really screw you over (I know it's kinda mentioned, but specifics are nice I guess? :P)
Good point, adding.
 
I use Flare Blitz instead of Sub/WoW in the BU set, because it can destroy steel types. Once I used it against a Swords Dance Aegislash and I won, so it's a really great counter.
 

Zystral

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<p>name: Bulk Up<br />
move 1: Bulk Up<br />
move 2: Brave Bird<br />
move 3: Roost<br />
move 4: Substitute / Will-O-Wisp<br />
ability: Gale Wings<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 212 HP / 236 SpD / 60 Spe<br />
nature: Careful</p>

<p>With Bulk Up, a great defensive typing, and priority on both Roost and Brave Bird, Talonflame makes for a great setup sweeper bulky booster, despite its low bulk. Thanks to the investment in special bulk, Talonflame fares much better against its usual checks, such as Rotom-W, as; for example, Rotom-W's Volt Switch fails to break Talonflame's Substitute if the bird used Roost on that turn, giving to Talonflame one free turn to boost, or even two free turns if Rotom-W is the only real answer of the opponent has to Talonflame. Other common checks such as Tyranitar and physically defensive Gyarados also struggle a lot against this set. Tyranitar struggles to do a lot of damage on a +1 Talonflame that uses Roost and it is bound to miss with Rock Slide or Stone Edge, giving a free turn to Talonflame and potentially allowing it to pp stall Tyranitar's Rock-type move. Defensive variants of Gyarados with Dragon Tail cannot break Talonflame's Substitute and with proper prediction, Talonflame can boost enough so that even Waterfall can't break it's Substitute. Will-O-Wisp is a perfect alternative over Subsitute, sacrificing Talonflame's standalone sweeping ability for more team and early-game utility, and cripples many of the common switch-ins to Talonflame, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Gyarados.</p>

<p>The EV spread gives to Talonflame enough Speed to outrun Jolly Excadrill and Adamant Mega Kangaskhan, and the rest of the EVs are put into HP and SpD to maximize Talonflame's special bulk. Rapid Spin or Defog support is essential, so Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and offensive Starmie are great partners, as they are all adept at removing entry hazards from the field, while all of them beat some of Talonflame's checks and counters (Mandibuzz handles Hippowdon, specially defensive Tyranitar, and Gyarados; Excadrill handles Tyranitar and Mega Ampharos; and offensive Starmie handles Hippowdon, Gyarados, and Slowbro). Grass-types to deal with Rotom-W and other Water-types are also appreciated, so Trevenant and Roserade are great teammates.</p>
seems good
 

alexwolf

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Thx, implemented. No to Flare Blitz as Sub and WoW helps your set up a lot and Steel-types not named Heatran are set up bait for Talonflame anyway.
 

GatoDelFuego

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alexwolf

<p>name: Bulk Up<br />
move 1: Bulk Up<br />
move 2: Brave Bird<br />
move 3: Roost<br />
move 4: Substitute / Will-O-Wisp<br />
ability: Gale Wings<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 212 HP / 236 SpD / 60 Spe<br />
nature: Careful</p>

<p>With Bulk Up, a great defensive typing, and priority on both Roost and Brave Bird, Talonflame makes for a great setup sweeper, despite its low bulk. Thanks to the investment in Special Defense bulk, you said "bulk" a bit too much Talonflame fares much better against its usual checks; for example, Rotom-W's Volt Switch fails to break Talonflame's Substitute if the bird used Roost on that turn, giving to Talonflame one free turn to boost, or even two free turns if Rotom-W is the only real answer the opponent has. Other common checks such as Tyranitar and physically defensive Gyarados also struggle a lot against this set. Tyranitar struggles to do a lot of damage on a +1 Talonflame that uses Roost and it is bound to miss with Rock Slide or Stone Edge, giving a free turn to Talonflame and potentially allowing it to PP stall Tyranitar's Rock-type move. Defensive variants of Gyarados with Dragon Tail cannot break Talonflame's Substitute and with proper prediction, Talonflame can boost enough so that even Waterfall can't break its Substitute. Will-O-Wisp is a perfect alternative over Substitute, sacrificing Talonflame's standalone sweeping ability for more team and early-game utility, and cripples many of the common switch-ins to Talonflame, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Gyarados.</p>

<p>The EV spread gives Talonflame enough Speed to outrun Jolly Excadrill and Adamant Mega Kangaskhan, and the rest of the EVs are put into HP and Special Defense to maximize Talonflame's special bulk. Rapid Spin or Defog support is essential, so Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and offensive Starmie are great partners, as they are all adept at removing entry hazards from the field, while all of them beat some of Talonflame's checks and counters (Mandibuzz handles Hippowdon, specially defensive Tyranitar, and Gyarados; Excadrill handles Tyranitar and Mega Ampharos; and offensive Starmie handles Hippowdon, Gyarados, and Slowbro). Grass-types to deal with Rotom-W and other Water-types are also appreciated, so Trevenant and Roserade are great teammates.</p>

Just a couple extras :)
 

alexwolf

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alexwolf

<p>name: Bulk Up<br />
move 1: Bulk Up<br />
move 2: Brave Bird<br />
move 3: Roost<br />
move 4: Substitute / Will-O-Wisp<br />
ability: Gale Wings<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 212 HP / 236 SpD / 60 Spe<br />
nature: Careful</p>

<p>With Bulk Up, a great defensive typing, and priority on both Roost and Brave Bird, Talonflame makes for a great setup sweeper, despite its low bulk. Thanks to the investment in Special Defense bulk, you said "bulk" a bit too much Talonflame fares much better against its usual checks; for example, Rotom-W's Volt Switch fails to break Talonflame's Substitute if the bird used Roost on that turn, giving to Talonflame one free turn to boost, or even two free turns if Rotom-W is the only real answer the opponent has. Other common checks such as Tyranitar and physically defensive Gyarados also struggle a lot against this set. Tyranitar struggles to do a lot of damage on a +1 Talonflame that uses Roost and it is bound to miss with Rock Slide or Stone Edge, giving a free turn to Talonflame and potentially allowing it to PP stall Tyranitar's Rock-type move. Defensive variants of Gyarados with Dragon Tail cannot break Talonflame's Substitute and with proper prediction, Talonflame can boost enough so that even Waterfall can't break its Substitute. Will-O-Wisp is a perfect alternative over Substitute, sacrificing Talonflame's standalone sweeping ability for more team and early-game utility, and cripples many of the common switch-ins to Talonflame, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Gyarados.</p>

<p>The EV spread gives Talonflame enough Speed to outrun Jolly Excadrill and Adamant Mega Kangaskhan, and the rest of the EVs are put into HP and Special Defense to maximize Talonflame's special bulk. Rapid Spin or Defog support is essential, so Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and offensive Starmie are great partners, as they are all adept at removing entry hazards from the field, while all of them beat some of Talonflame's checks and counters (Mandibuzz handles Hippowdon, specially defensive Tyranitar, and Gyarados; Excadrill handles Tyranitar and Mega Ampharos; and offensive Starmie handles Hippowdon, Gyarados, and Slowbro). Grass-types to deal with Rotom-W and other Water-types are also appreciated, so Trevenant and Roserade are great teammates.</p>

Just a couple extras :)
Thx man, implemented.
 

Colonel M

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Actually, I would recommend being faster than Jolly Mega Kangaskhan on all of the sets. It sort of blows to have your revenge killer revenge killed by something like Mega Kangaskhan, and Talonflame can work in a dire emergency.

For EVs I used 92 HP | 252 Atk+ | 164 Adamant. You can also go Jolly if you really want to, but I like the extra power. I was also using Bulk Up on my set in Pokebank OU. Actually I have to compliment - even Bulk Up + Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, and Roost gets the job done. But damn does Toxic really fucking annoy me.
 
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Colonel M

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Also Double Post because fuck everything.

I recommend slashing Taunt on the mono-attacking set. User Soul Fly can attest to it as he used a team I had with a slightly tweaked version to test it out and I thought about using Taunt myself. Being able to make yourself immune to Toxic and paralysis is rich. Even helps set up on Ferrothorn too.
 

Soul Fly

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Also Double Post because fuck everything.

I recommend slashing Taunt on the mono-attacking set. User Soul Fly can attest to it as he used a team I had with a slightly tweaked version to test it out and I thought about using Taunt myself. Being able to make yourself immune to Toxic and paralysis is rich. Even helps set up on Ferrothorn too.

This list can go on and on. SR/Roar Heatran. KS/SD Aegislash. Forry. Skarmory. Scizor. Lucario (Espeed sucks after a single BU). Volcarona. DNite. Trevenant. Mawile. Breloom....... basically every pivot/Wall ever.
Also screws shit up for Scarf chomper. Outrage does ~50% @ +1, walls @ +2

With a little good play it can easily boost to +2/+3. Taunt is absolutely Superb for a BU set.
 

haunter

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<p>This set sacrifices the ability to change moves, set up, and use Roost in exchange for immediate power, which makes Talonflame a stellar revenge killer and a good clean-up Pokemon against offensive teams that will continually apply pressure. Aside from the usual two STAB moves, U-turn wears down Talonflame's usual checks and deals respectable damage to one of its best counters: Tyranitar (42.07 - 49.5% to 252 HP Tyranitar). Will-O-Wisp and Tailwing may seem like a strange options for a Choice item set, but they have their merits: Will-O-Wisp permanently cripples Talonflame's usual switch-ins whereas Tailwind can help in desperate situations, or simply to give slower powerhouses in your team a two-turn boost to apply enormous offensive pressure.</p>
That's supposed to be Tailwind.
 

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