Don't use that, use this [OU Edition]

[Gary]

Now hold on; Spinda has a valid point but I think he's going about it the wrong way, but even so I agree he is derailing the thread longer than it should be so I'll keep this brief.

The concept of this thread is great; comparing two Pokemon with similar attributes and roles, and how they preform. Helpful for newcomers and informative to veterans. A fantastic idea!

However, that is not what this thread is or at least not what it's advertised to be. Gary, I don't mean to pick on you, but your Jolteon/Thundurus comparison in the OP is just the perfect example of this. You're taking every flaw of Pokemon "A" and breaking them down, then taking every strength of Pokemon "B" and blowing it up to make Pokemon "A" seem inferior in every way. That helps no one, and while veterans will just overlook that or argue against it, newer players may look at it as gospel and follow advice that is largely false. And the fact that this is the structure of the OP, the post you say in big bolded letters that you want everyone to read and likely base their posts off of, is very bad and not a good example to set as a badge-holder, man. And I'm not saying every post is like this; like I said earlier, there are some great posts in this thread, but there a lot that just make one-sided arguments like that.

That said, I still love the concept and I want it to stay. However, I'd like to propose an alternative way of going about this concept:
Write about the pros AND cons of each Pokemon (analyze them a bit), then write a conclusion paragraph comparing the two and which of the two Pokemon is better and why.
Saving judgement for the last section is for a simple reason: It's so easy to make a one-sided argument by breaking down a topic into multiple pieces, but when you have to form a conclusion based on the combined parts and the combined pros and cons of each, that's where a lot of people realize that they can't just make a one-sided argument anymore and may even realize some flaws in what they thought was true.
The more pros and cons you share for each Pokemon, the more you're showing that you know both Pokemon well and have credibility.

I know it sounds like schoolwork but...welcome Smogon University! Quality and accuracy are important when you're trying to make a point.

It's of course your call in the end, but I felt all that needed to be said.

Thanks for your input. Although I still don't fully disagree with my example in the OP, I will replace it with something different (like the Cloyster set for example, which is the simplest example we have so far). And yes, I do agree with you that people need to be a bit more informative when they make comparisons, so everyone will get an accurate understanding as to why these two Pokemon are being compared. Anyways, thank you for the constructive criticism, and I'll make sure to implement a better example in the OP and inform everyone about the conclusion paragraph.

EDIT: Done.

 

[Spinda]

Thanks for your input. Although I still don't fully disagree with my example in the OP, I will replace it with something different (like the Cloyster set for example, which is the simplest example we have so far). And yes, I do agree with you that people need to be a bit more informative when they make comparisons, so everyone will get an accurate understanding as to why these two Pokemon are being compared. Anyways, thank you for the constructive criticism, and I'll make sure to implement a better example in the OP and inform everyone about the conclusion paragraph.

EDIT: Done.

Thanks, this is the main point I was trying to get across, which I admittedly did a pretty bad job at.
I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about this thread, but I don't feel as strongly against it anymore at all, atleast.
I'm sorry for causing a scene.

 

[Gary]

Thanks, this is the main point I was trying to get across, which I admittedly did a pretty bad job at.
I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about this thread, but I don't feel as strongly against it anymore at all, atleast.
I'm sorry for causing a scene.

Not a problem. Thank you for apologizing, and I apologize if I might have gotten a bit pissed off. I've had a long ass day today, and coming home to arguments is not something I like to see lol.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Don't use this:
Metagross @ Life Orb
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Metagross classic agility set has fall for grace. With no way to get around common physical walls like hippowdon, skarmory and ferrothorn and struggling even with less bulk threats like rotom w, this set finds itself having a hard time sweeping even though its easy to get an Agility boost. Meteor Mash poor accuracy and bad coverage forces Metagross to rely on is non stab moves to get around steel resists which is the reason its easily walled.

Use this instead:

Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
Agility Lucario possess something that Agiligross would kill for: Close Combat. Thanks to this powerful stab move with great coverage Lucario is able to smash a huge part of the tier with ease, while ice punch and thunder punch take care of all fighting type resists except reuniclus. Although Lucario needs prior damage to ko the likes of latias and gliscor before they can ko you back, thats not very hard to achieve and unlike metagross, its very hard to effectively wall lucario (only hippowdon and reuniclus can claim that in the tier) making sweeping with it quite easy most of the time.

Conclusion:
Metagross is bulk and strong but unfortunately lacks stab moves with good coverage and is thus, easily walled which goes against the point of trying to sweep in first place. Lucario on the other hand has access to excellent coverage with one move in close combat and can easily destroy fighting type resistors with the appropriate coverage. All in all even though Lucario doesnt get as much setup opportunities as it wanted, once it gets one it has no problem smashing its opponents with its mighty aura!

 

[Gary]

Don't use this:
Metagross @ Life Orb
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Metagross classic agility set has fall for grace. With no way to get around common physical walls like hippowdon, skarmory and ferrothorn and struggling even with less bulk threats like rotom w, this set finds itself having a hard time sweeping even though its easy to get an Agility boost. Meteor Mash poor accuracy and bad coverage forces Metagross to rely on is non stab moves to get around steel resists which is the reason its easily walled.

Use this instead:

Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
Agility Lucario possess something that Agiligross would kill for: Close Combat. Thanks to this powerful stab move with great coverage Lucario is able to smash a huge part of the tier with ease, while ice punch and thunder punch take care of all fighting type resists except reuniclus. Although Lucario needs prior damage to ko the likes of latias and gliscor before they can ko you back, thats not very hard to achieve and unlike metagross, its very hard to effectively wall lucario (only hippowdon and reuniclus can claim that in the tier) making sweeping with it quite easy most of the time.

Don't forget to put a conclusion! That's the new rule now.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Done, also im really glad my cloyster post has been so well received :p

 

[Gary]

Okay, now THIS is something that pisses me off when I see it.

Don't use this....

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Thunder Wave

I don't think a lot of people realize how Gyro Ball works. Its Base Power depends on the difference between the Speed of the user and that of the target, meaning that the slower Ferrothorn is compared to the opponent, the more powerful Gyro Ball will become. Now tell me something, why the fuck would you use T-Wave on the same set that uses Gyro Ball when you want Ferrothorn to hit faster things really hard? When you use T-Wave, you're cutting the opponents speed by a LOT, so by making the opponent slower, you're essentially weakening Ferrothorn. It's redundant, and it shouldn't be used. It's so annoying to see that a Ferrothorn is using Gyro Ball, then I proceed to go into my Keldeo only to get paralyzed by T-Wave. I understand that people want to cripple things, but you're actually crippling your own Pokemon by giving it a move that actually cuts the BP of its only attacking move. Instead of using T-Wave on the Latios switch-in, just use Gyro Ball and fuck its shit up. Same with Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Terrakion, etc.

Use this instead:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave
- Power Whip

If you're going to use Ferrothorn correctly, you need to pick which move you'd rather have; Gyro Ball or Thunder Wave. Gyro Ball is preferred overall because it gives Ferrothorn another attacking option to keep Gengar, Latias, Kyurem-B, and a lot of other Pokemon that resist Power Whip from setting up on Ferrothorn. T-Wave is still nice though, because you can cripple fast sweepers and Choice Scarf users for the rest of the match with just the touch of a button. T-Wave and Power Whip work great together, but Gyro Ball and T-Wave don't. Ferrothorn already has an awful time choosing what 4 moves to carry, and giving it two moves that have horrible synergy with each other is only making Ferrothorn's moveslot syndrome worse.

Conclusion: It's plain and simple; DON'T USE GYRO BALL + THUNDER WAVE!!! If you don't want to have really weak Gyro Balls, then don't use T-Wave. If you want to use T-Wave, then use Power Whip instead. You still have an attacking move, and you can still paralyze things.

 

[Luckstard.]

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave
- Protect / Power Whip

I think it is better like this.

Because, to me, Ferro need to set up one EH, not two.
Leech seed is obvious.
Gyro ball / T-wave that's ok.
Protect over power whipe because it is very useful against CB Scizor. (I really think Protect need to be slashed in fact).

I've also slashed Rocky Helmet because it's also viable on Ferrothorn.

 

[doughboy]

Don't use this...

Darmanitan (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-turn

One could say that Darmanitan is the absolute pinnacle of hard-hitting power in OU. In the sun, very few things come close to Darmanitans's Flare Blitz under the sun (1.5*1.5*1.5*1.3 = 4.3875 multiplier for power [stab*sun*choice band*sheer force]). In short, the total base power under Darmanitan's Flare Blitz under the sun is 526.5 (4.3875*120). Very power indeed. Darmanitan's "great" assets stop there. One of the first things when using Darmanitan that you will notice is that its survivability is very low. On top of being SR weak, Darmanitan's Flare Blitz takes away large amounts of health from Darmanitan. Since Darmanitan is OHKO'ing almost the entire tier, it will always be taking large amount of recoil. It's high HP stat is not enough to mitigate the huge recoil it will receive. Darmanitan also really hates when rain is up. When rain is up Darmanitan lacks a powerful move to hit water-types. The last thing you need to know is that Darmanitan is frail. The 105 base HP it has won't be making up for those base 55 defensive and specially defensive stats anytime soon. Also, it does not have many meaningful resists with its mono fire-typing. Thus, you can't get Darmanitan on many things unless you generate a free switch.

Use this instead!

Victini @ Choice Band
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def /252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Brick Break
- U-turn

You may be disappointed when looking at Victini at first because Vicitini does not have Sheer Force nor does it have 100 base attack compared to the 140 base attack that Darmanitan does have. Your disappointment will be immediately rectified when you learn Victini's V-Create is 81 base power points higher than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz! 1.5*1.5*1.5*180 = 607.5 (stab*sun*choice band*base power of v-create). If you look at Victini more closely, you will be pleasantly surprised that it has THE BEST way to deal with bulky water-types for a physical attacker: Bolt Strike. Bolt Strike is so cool because it is a 130 base power attack and it has an increased 93% accuracy from Victory Star. Victini also has good bulk and more resists than Darmanitan (most important is fighting). Those 100/100/100 defenses, extra resists, and lack of recoil from V-Create make sure Victini will stay around much longer in the game than Darmanitan. You can actually switch in Victini to start firing off some powerful attacks on Pokemon like Breloom. Victini also holds a slight speed advantage over Darmanitan. It outspeeds Hydreigon, which is sort off important because it is a major threat to sun teams, but more importantly it has the ability to tie opposing base 100's.

Conclusion:

So with an added Pursuit weakness to some TTar from switching from Darmanitan to Victini, you gain:

1. Much, Much more bulk
2. ability to beat bulky waters even in rain
3. more survivability since you do not take recoil
4. slightly more speed to beat Hydreigon and tie with neutral natured base 100's

It really is a no brainer for me to use Victini > Darmanitan

edit: @LucaroarkZ I make that mistake every damn time lol

Edit2: the error I made is that the power difference is the move's power difference, not actual hit itself. However victini gets nearly every KO that dark get wih flare blitz, so the point still stands that victini>darm

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Flare Blitz has 120 Base Power, not 140.

Victini is for sure better than Darmanitan, but just a minor nitpick.

 

[Lyconik]

I made some calcs, and Darmanitan hit much more than Victini does.

252 Atk Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 88,41% - 103,97% (under sun)
252 Atk Victini V-create vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 80,13% - 94,37% (under sun)

I'm agree that CB Victini > CB Darmanitan, but with choice scarf, I prefer to use darmanitan because I like to spam flare blitz in end game without worried about the speed drop.

And also, fire punch > rock slide.

 

[alexwolf]

DoughBoy CB Darmanitan isn't bad because it is outclassed by Victini (which is up to debate anyway and not so clear cut as you make it sound) but because it's outclassed by LO Darmanitan, which thanks to Sheer Force can use LO without recoil on its most spammable move and Rock Slide. And being able to switch moves, OHKO Heatran, and not get trapped by Tyranitar after using your STAB move are all enough reasons to consider using LO Darmanitan over CB Victini.

Oh and also Specs Jolteon isn't even close to outclassed by SubPass. They are different sets with different purposes and thus their comparison is invalid.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Don't use this...

Darmanitan (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-turn

One could say that Darmanitan is the absolute pinnacle of hard-hitting power in OU. In the sun, very few things come close to Darmanitans's Flare Blitz under the sun (1.5*1.5*1.5*1.3 = 4.3875 multiplier for power [stab*sun*choice band*sheer force]). In short, the total base power under Darmanitan's Flare Blitz under the sun is 526.5 (4.3875*120). Very power indeed. Darmanitan's "great" assets stop there. One of the first things when using Darmanitan that you will notice is that its survivability is very low. On top of being SR weak, Darmanitan's Flare Blitz takes away large amounts of health from Darmanitan. Since Darmanitan is OHKO'ing almost the entire tier, it will always be taking large amount of recoil. It's high HP stat is not enough to mitigate the huge recoil it will receive. Darmanitan also really hates when rain is up. When rain is up Darmanitan lacks a powerful move to hit water-types. The last thing you need to know is that Darmanitan is frail. The 105 base HP it has won't be making up for those base 55 defensive and specially defensive stats anytime soon. Also, it does not have many meaningful resists with its mono fire-typing. Thus, you can't get Darmanitan on many things unless you generate a free switch.

Use this instead!

Victini @ Choice Band
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def /252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Brick Break
- U-turn

You may be disappointed when looking at Victini at first because Vicitini does not have Sheer Force nor does it have 100 base attack compared to the 140 base attack that Darmanitan does have. Your disappointment will be immediately rectified when you learn Victini's V-Create is 81 base power points higher than Darmanitan's Flare Blitz! 1.5*1.5*1.5*180 = 607.5 (stab*sun*choice band*base power of v-create). If you look at Victini more closely, you will be pleasantly surprised that it has THE BEST way to deal with bulky water-types for a physical attacker: Bolt Strike. Bolt Strike is so cool because it is a 130 base power attack and it has an increased 93% accuracy from Victory Star. Victini also has good bulk and more resists than Darmanitan (most important is fighting). Those 100/100/100 defenses, extra resists, and lack of recoil from V-Create make sure Victini will stay around much longer in the game than Darmanitan. You can actually switch in Victini to start firing off some powerful attacks on Pokemon like Breloom. Victini also holds a slight speed advantage over Darmanitan. It outspeeds Hydreigon, which is sort off important because it is a major threat to sun teams, but more importantly it has the ability to tie opposing base 100's.

Conclusion:

So with an added Pursuit weakness to some TTar from switching from Darmanitan to Victini, you gain:

1. Much, Much more bulk
2. ability to beat bulky waters even in rain
3. more survivability since you do not take recoil
4. slightly more speed to beat Hydreigon and tie with neutral natured base 100's

It really is a no brainer for me to use Victini > Darmanitan

edit: @LucaroarkZ I make that mistake every damn time lol

Edit2: the error I made is that the power difference is the move's power difference, not actual hit itself. However victini gets nearly every KO that dark get wih flare blitz, so the point still stands that victini>darm

Darmanitan can actually stay in and spam Flare Blitz, unlike victini. Victini's V-create fails to ohko dragonite after stealth rock damage considering there's no sun, while Darmanitan has a ~70% chance to OHKO it. The latter usually has to switch out after using v-create. And Darmanitan has Rock Slide which allows it to beat Salamence and Dragonite. Superpower is a MUCH better fighting-type attack than Brick Break, and it can allow Darmanitan to plow through Terrakion switching in, for example.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Oh and also Specs Jolteon isn't even close to outclassed by SubPass. They are different sets with different purposes and thus their comparison is invalid.

Did you even read my whole post and understand it fully? I didn't say Specs Jolteon was bad, I merely stated to not use it and use SubPass instead was because Specs Jolteon has so much of a harder time finding a spot on a team thanks to Thundurus-T, and how minor Specs Jolteon's niche was. Then I stated how SubPass had a much larger niche since, for one, it does something Thundurus-T doesn't, and there are not that many viable users of the SubPass strategy.

Yes, they are two different sets with two different purposes, but my argument was based on both sets in comparison to their niches over Thundurus-T. You could figure that out by reading the first sentences of both of my paragraphs talking about the different Jolteon sets. Since Specs Jolteon's niche over Thundurus-T is relatively minor in comparison to Thundurus-T's numerous advantages, unlike SubPass, that you should be using SubPass and not Specs. And let's be honest here... Thundurus-T's advantages over Special Attacking Jolteon far outweigh its disadvantages. That is why I said "don't use Specs Jolteon, use SubPass instead because SubPass has a much larger niche over Thundurus-T." But, go ahead, consider that invalid. But I have a feeling know this conversation will most likely go nowhere, so I'm outta here.

 

[ogasian]

^ Dude I agree with you but don't get so defensive.

 

[TCTphantom]

Don't use this...

Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technichian
252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Seed

Why its mediocre: Breloom is a fantastic pokemon in the OU metagame, but this set minimizes his potential. A clever switch after Spore early game on turn and your Breloom will only get in one strong Mach Punch, and be promptly OHKOed, which is rather easy, seeing as unless you are running a Toxic Heal Breloom, your Breloom will be rather easy to OHKO, especially with its weaknesses to powerful move types, such as Psychic, Ice, and Fire, while Flying is rather strong too. The point is, if you are using Breloom early game, this set will be easy to kill after a Swords Dance and Spore.

Use this instead...

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Techinchian
252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Spore
-Swords Dance
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Seed

Why this is better: This set almost guarantees it putting 2 pokemon out of commission, with Spore, and a sash, which gives Breloom that crucial ability to live one hit. Unless against a Sand or hail team, leading with Breloom will allow it to severely damage the foes team, being able to cripple at least one more pokemon than Life Orb will early game.

Conclusion: Early game, Sash Breloom is better due to its survivabillity which nets you more kills Early Game. Late game, Life Orb Breloom is far better due to the fact they most likely have Hazards down already, unlike on Turn 1, where most people tend to use Breloom. Overall, if you are to use Breloom early game, use this set, or you will be easy to kill...

 

[phantom]

I think if you're leading with Breloom, it should always be Jolly so that it can Speed tie with Custap Skarm and potentially put it to sleep. It also has a bunch of other benefits like outspeeding Adamant Mamoswine, Gyarados, Dragonite, ect. You're using Adamant Breloom to sweep, hence the nature to gain more of a power boost. Sash Loom is used early game to disrupt the opponent's momentum given its excellent matchup against a lot of common leads like Terrakion, Garchomp, ect and being able to put troublesome Custap Leads to sleep. It sometimes gets the chance to sweep, but that's not its goal. You're just using Jolly Sash loom to keep HO shit in check and keep your opponent on their toes (at least from my experience). Life Orb Adamant is more of a sweeper against slower teams because of its significant power increase and middling Speed. Jolly without Life Orb just isn't cutting it from all the matches I've used it in. You use something like Adamant LO loom mid-game to power through teams. I think in that sense, they both function differently, so I don't think comparing them is that fair tbh. Just to add on a bit, even the items/natures for Breloom can be used interchangeably because Jolly Orb or Adamant Sash do in fact have benefits (though admittedly, it's for more specialized teams). I'd say that Jolly Sash Loom has way more perks though (imo), but Adamant LO Loom has benefits for being incredibly destructive against balanced/stall. In essence, the item/nature you use Breloom with depends on what you want to use it for and how it fits with the general makeup of your team. So there really isn't a wrong way to use it unless you're using something totally ridiculous like Normal Gem/Modest, lol.

 

[alexwolf]

Did you even read my whole post and understand it fully? I didn't say Specs Jolteon was bad, I merely stated to not use it and use SubPass instead was because Specs Jolteon has so much of a harder time finding a spot on a team thanks to Thundurus-T, and how minor Specs Jolteon's niche was. Then I stated how SubPass had a much larger niche since, for one, it does something Thundurus-T doesn't, and there are not that many viable users of the SubPass strategy.

Yes, they are two different sets with two different purposes, but my argument was based on both sets in comparison to their niches over Thundurus-T. You could figure that out by reading the first sentences of both of my paragraphs talking about the different Jolteon sets. Since Specs Jolteon's niche over Thundurus-T is relatively minor in comparison to Thundurus-T's numerous advantages, unlike SubPass, that you should be using SubPass and not Specs. And let's be honest here... Thundurus-T's advantages over Special Attacking Jolteon far outweigh its disadvantages. That is why I said "don't use Specs Jolteon, use SubPass instead because SubPass has a much larger niche over Thundurus-T." But, go ahead, consider that invalid. But I have a feeling know this conversation will most likely go nowhere, so I'm outta here.

Yeah i read all that and i still stand by what i said. Jolteon's superior Speed to Thundurus-T and its neutrality to SR shouldn't be underestimated, giving it a clear niche over Thundurus-T, even when using a Specs set. If you prefer the SubPass set that's fine, but the sheer power and Speed of the Specs set are unmatched (and Specs Jolteon is used in rain where it has a 120 BP Thunder), and is something that Thundurus-T could never do for reasons already mentioned.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

(PLEASE) don't use this:

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD
Careful Nature

- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Rest

Bulk Up Scrafty is ass. I get frustrated whenever I see it because it's so goddamn easy to stop. Yeah yeah it becomes nearly untouchable after one or two bulk ups, but how is it going to obtain those boosts? Too many threats wall it even at +2 or +3 and set up on it, phaze it or 2hko it with very poweful special moves. Yeah yeah it has Rest and Shed Skin to heal itself, but the chance of waking up every turn is just 30% and your opponent can use those turns to set up. Drain Punch just doesn't hit hard enough. Terrakion and Keldeo laugh at crunch and can simply ohko Scrafty with their fighting-type attacks even at +1. In fact, every fighting-type does. So please don't use bulk up scrafty.

Use this:

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Dragon Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Crunch
- Ice Punch / Taunt

Even DD Scrafty isn't amazing, but it's a lot better than that horrible bulk up set. At least Scrafty outspeeds every fighting-type in the tier at +1 and deals severe damage or OHKOes them with Hi Jump Kick after a bit of prior damage. In fact, +1 HJK hurts like hell unless the opposing pokemon is resistant to it. At least it has a way to trounce Latios and Latias with crunch before getting annihilated by draco meteor. At least it can now ohko tornadus with Ice Punch before getting OHKOed by Hurricane. Or, it can now set up on Hippowdon, Skarmory (though it does need to watch out for brave bird) and any other phazer or Pokemon relying on support moves (like ferrothorn, jellicent, tentacruel...)

 

[Grey Knight]

Nice thread, i wanted to post this haxorus set for some time now.

Haxorus @ Lum Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Haxorus, another a seemingly promising generation 5 pokemon that sinked into the OU tartars along with once regarded giants like metagross and infernape.
Its obvious to skillful players that this standard set up sweeping haxorus set has neither the bulk or the offensive coverage (superpower is horribly predictable and it costs ,earthquake is not a problem for many ou steel types) a reliable set up sweeper needs to have in order to be effective not only that but haxorus falls victim of almost every single dragon countermeasure that the dragon infested OU tier has developed over the years like bullet punch sciz scarf keldeo and many others,
its obviously outclassed by other dragons like chompy and dnite.

Haxorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature (jolly if deoxys-d/Roserante show up in ou again)
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Taut


Here is a set that i think sets haxorus apart from every other dragon in the tier it completely changes its purpose , this set targets to make a successful wall breaker not only for dragon spam teams that need a lead to keep hazards out of the way while being able to actually break through skarmory without resorting on fire attacks that will probably scare skarm out , but for every team that needs a solid wallbreaker capable of breaking through the vast majority of OU physical walls like gliskor, lano-T and many others.


Any feedback is wellcome sorry for my English i am European.

 

[Trinitrotoluene]

Mmkay. Here we go. This (arguably) will be the most controversial nomination in this thread for now, considering how both sets are actually quite good at accomplishing different tasks. Keep in mind that this nomination is made with the mindset that Dragonite is being used as a wallbreaker rather than a sweeper.

Don't use that:

Dragonite @ Lum Berry | Multiscale
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
• Dragon Dance
• Outrage
• Fire Punch / Earthquake
• ExtremeSpeed

Okay, don't get me wrong, because this set is still pretty good as a late-game sweeper, thanks to Multiscale granting it the bulk needed to set up at least one Dragon Dance, which is enough to sweep through plenty of teams in the late-game. Ideally, Dragonite should be capable of doing so with ease thanks to the near-perfect neutral coverage Dragon and Fire obtain with used together (IIRC, the only Pokemon that resists the Dragon / Fire coverage in OU is Flash Fire Heatran) as well as the transcendant priority ExtremeSpeed carries. In reality, this isn't always the case due to Outrage's downsides and Fire Punch's (relatively low) base power, as well as ExtremeSpeed's meager 8 PP. This is exacerbated further when several common faster scarfers (see: Garchomp, Keldeo, Terrakion) can tank a +1 ExtremeSpeed and OHKO with common moves.

However, a quick glimpse through some of the teams posted in RMT show that many newer players try to use this Dragonite as a wallbreaker, which defeats the entire purpose of running this set in the first place. Thanks to limited super-effective coverage, this Dragonite finds difficulties in breaking past walls, and its low speed even after a boost, which already is a problem if it attempts to sweep, is exacerbated if it's used as a wallbreaker. Several common walls don't exactly fear an unboosted Dragonite's power, and a few commodities in stall (see: Hippowdon, Skarmory) can pHaze Dragonite if it attempts to boost against them. Overall, this is not a good wallbreaking set.

Use this:

Dragonite @ Choice Band | Multiscale
Adamant | 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
• Outrage
• ExtremeSpeed
• Fire Punch / Waterfalll
• Earthquake

Now, this Dragonite is geared more towards wallbreaking, thanks to the immediate boost in power Choice Band gives. Not many walls lacking a Dragon resistance can withstand a +1 Outrage, and the Dragon / Fire / Ground coverage actually hits quite a bit super-effectively. This coverage also allows Dragonite to trip up its usual defensive checks, slamming them with a coverage move instead of an Outrage the first time they switch in, weakening them to the point where they cannot handle another assault. ExtremeSpeed also nips weakened opponents off without placing any of Dragonite's HP at risk, giving Dragonite a secondary (tertiary?) role as a revenge killer. If you're playing in the rain, you can opt to use Waterfall over Fire Punch, which hits most of the same walls for neutral coverage. Superpower over Earthquake is also an option that you can consider, but this means that Dragonite is left cold in the water against Jirachi and Metagross. The lack of speed isn't an issue for this set at all, and the increased bulk is more conducive for the wallbreaking duties this Dragonite assumes.

Conclusion:

If you want your Dragonite to be a wallbreaker, then use a Choice Band set. If you want your Dragonite to be a sweeper, then use the Dragon Dance set. However, don't use the Dragon Dance set as a wallbreaker. The time needed to boost and the lack of super-effective coverage hampers the wallbreaking potential any Dragonite with Dragon Dance has. In comparison, CBNite's coverage and immediate power, which allows it to trip up its usual checks, are more conducive to the wallbreaking role it's attempting to fulfill.

 

[Grey Knight]

Use this:

Dragonite @ Choice Band | Multiscale
Adamant | 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
• Outrage
• ExtremeSpeed
• Fire Punch / Aqua Tail
• Earthquake

Now, this Dragonite is geared more towards wallbreaking, thanks to the immediate boost in power Choice Band gives. Not many walls lacking a Dragon resistance can withstand a +1 Outrage, and the Dragon / Fire / Ground coverage actually hits quite a bit super-effectively. This coverage also allows Dragonite to trip up its usual defensive checks, slamming them with a coverage move instead of an Outrage the first time they switch in, weakening them to the point where they cannot handle another assault. ExtremeSpeed also nips weakened opponents off without placing any of Dragonite's HP at risk, giving Dragonite a secondary (tertiary?) role as a revenge killer. If you're playing in the rain, you can opt to use Aqua Tail over Fire Punch, which hits most of the same walls for neutral coverage. Superpower over Earthquake is also an option that you can consider, but this means that Dragonite is left cold in the water against Jirachi and Metagross. The lack of speed isn't an issue for this set at all, and the increased bulk is more conducive for the wallbreaking duties this Dragonite assumes.

Conclusion:

If you want your Dragonite to be a wallbreaker, then use a Choice Band set. If you want your Dragonite to be a sweeper, then use the Dragon Dance set. However, don't use the Dragon Dance set as a wallbreaker. The time needed to boost, as well as the lack of super-effective coverage hampers the wallbreaking potential any Dragonite with Dragon Dance has. In comparison, CBNite's coverage and immediate power, which allows it to trip up its usual checks, are more conducive to the wallbreaking role it's attempting to fulfill.

the set is perfect, Just change aqua tail to waterfall , aqua tail will miss every tenth time while its only approx 11% stronger not to mention the 20% flinch rate that waterfall has.

 

[Grey Knight]

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how do i delete this accidental double post ?

 

[Torterragatr]

Don't use this,

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam

Why It's Bad

It's a shame that Jellicent needs to invest so much in Defense, right? Well, there's a reason for that, because without it literally every physical attacker with a decent Attack and a powerful STAB move will slice you like a hot knife through butter. (Will-O-Wisp can fix that... if you ignore the fact that they have to switch directly into you to use it without you taking a hit first 95% of the time, and—and I don't like factoring accuracy into arguments—it misses, and misses often. Don't forget about random Lum Berries!) This makes it harder to switch into even resisted attacks from them for fear of a costly misprediction, and makes it much harder to check things that the physically defensive set can, like Scizor. Most importantly, the spread leaves you wide open to Pursuit. Bandtar will do huge damage even if you nail a burn on the switch, and you sure won't be walling much after sustaining Crunch or a boosted Pursuit from Scarftar.

Use this instead:

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spd
Bold Nature
- Scald / Hydro Pump
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt / Giga Drain / Ice Beam / Shadow Ball

Other than the Choice Specs set, this is about the only set you should use. Its Defense is much better, and it lets it avoid key 2HKOs from the likes of unboosted Terrakion, but it's not weak on the other side either, as it can still check a ton of important specially based threats thanks to its bulk, ability, and typing. It's slightly less sturdy as a spinblocker, but Shadow Ball is always an option to hurt Starmie, and the benefits far outweigh the cost of running Defense.

 

[Prinz]

Don't use this:
Metagross @ Life Orb
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
Metagross classic agility set has fall for grace. With no way to get around common physical walls like hippowdon, skarmory and ferrothorn and struggling even with less bulk threats like rotom w, this set finds itself having a hard time sweeping even though its easy to get an Agility boost. Meteor Mash poor accuracy and bad coverage forces Metagross to rely on is non stab moves to get around steel resists which is the reason its easily walled.

Use this instead:

Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
Agility Lucario possess something that Agiligross would kill for: Close Combat. Thanks to this powerful stab move with great coverage Lucario is able to smash a huge part of the tier with ease, while ice punch and thunder punch take care of all fighting type resists except reuniclus. Although Lucario needs prior damage to ko the likes of latias and gliscor before they can ko you back, thats not very hard to achieve and unlike metagross, its very hard to effectively wall lucario (only hippowdon and reuniclus can claim that in the tier) making sweeping with it quite easy most of the time.

Conclusion:
Metagross is bulk and strong but unfortunately lacks stab moves with good coverage and is thus, easily walled which goes against the point of trying to sweep in first place. Lucario on the other hand has access to excellent coverage with one move in close combat and can easily destroy fighting type resistors with the appropriate coverage. All in all even though Lucario doesnt get as much setup opportunities as it wanted, once it gets one it has no problem smashing its opponents with its mighty aura!

I always found HJK much more useful than Close Combat in the Agility set because of the more power that HJK has. Also, I always use Crunch instead of Thunder Punch which hits a bit harder Jellicent and which hits much harder Ghost-types too, who love to switch into a HJK, once you showed up it. Nice set anyways, it's p uncommon and effective at the same time nowadays!