DPP Dragonite (Extremespeed CB)

[eastamazonantidote]

I was very surprised that Extremespeed wasn't on the analysis for CBNite. I've been using this with great success and feel it deserves a spot on the analysis page.
Current analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite

I probably need an explanation of Earthquake being slashed in and feel I should mention Aqua Tail, but after lots of testing I decided that, for me, Fire Punch was more effective, allowing the set to truly 2HKO everything in OU. Should I make a comparison to the standard CBNite?

EDIT 1: updated according to jc104's suggestions. Switched the speed to 200 and added the option of going higher. Eliminated the gender classification (was using he/his instead of it/its). Also made it a little less dramatic and more objective.

STATUS: NEEDS PROOFREEDING/EDITING/OPINIONS! SECOND DRAFT.

QUESTIONS: Should I make the comparison to Scizor? Can someone convince me whether or not Jolly is an option or not (I'm on the edge with this one)? Should I make a point about Earthquake as an option over Superpower (though they do the same job, basically)?

[SET]
Name: Extreme CBNite
Move 1: Extremespeed
Move 2: Fire Punch
Move 3: Outrage
Move 4: Superpower / Earthquake
Item: Choice Band
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This variation of Choice Band Dragonite clearly illustrates why one would use Dragonite over Salamence. Salamence can run a similar set with slightly higher attack and much higher speed at the cost of bulk. However, Dragonite packs one attack that makes it a much more effective revenge killer: Extremespeed. Dragonite's speed is rather poor but its attack stat is excellent. So often has it been overlooked for Salamence because of that extra speed - well, no longer. With Extremespeed, Dragonite bypasses its low speed and hits opponents almost as hard as Scizor's Bullet Punch. With just this one attack, Dragonite is transformed from a slow wallbreaker into a premium revenge killer. With Stealth Rock support provided, Extremespeed can 2HKO almost half of the OU tier. What also makes Dragonite unique from Salamence is access to more powerful physical Fire- and Fighting-type attacks in Fire Punch and Superpower, respectively, allowing Dragonite to deal with Steel-types more effectively. Outrage functions as the primary damage inducer only after Steel-types or priority users have been removed from the match. Its power is too great to overlook.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>One should not underestimate the power of this set, as it is quite literally capable of 2HKOing everything in OU. Outrage is the main STAB, and with its enormous Base Power, it will at least 2HKO every non-Steel pokemon in the game (bar Shedinja), including Cresselia and Hippowdon with Stealth Rock support. Between Outrage and Superpower, Dragonite hits everything but Shedinja for neutral damage. Fire Punch will 2HKO the standard Bronzong and Skarmory (and OHKO Shedinja), while Superpower OHKOes Blissey without you having to lock yourself into Outrage. The shining glory or this set, however, is Extremespeed.</p>

<p>Because of Extremespeed's power and priority, it is inadvisable to use a Jolly nature. Also, Outrage and Fire Punch miss out on key 2HKOs without the extra attack. Superpower's attack drops mean more with a Jolly nature, as well. Despite Extremespeed's priority and Dragonite's relatively poor speed, maximizing your speed stat is important in outspeeding the assortment of walls at 244 and 245 speed (trying to outrun Jolly Tyranitar), like defensive Celebi and Zapdos. Outspeeding these threats is a must when you're going for the 2HKO, so a minimum of 200 speed EVs should be used (246 speed). Modest Heatran can be outsped with 232 speed EVs. Going higher than this is unnecessary.</p>

<p>Predicting your opponent's move incorrectly is a danger to any Choice item pokemon, and Dragonite is no exception, though its issues are amplified by a Stealth Rock weakness. With Superpower lowering Dragonite's attacking stat and Outage locking Dragonite into an attack for 2-3 turns, it is essential that you think before bringing Dragonite in. Superpower and Extremespeed are stopped cold by Ghost types; Fire Punch is stopped by Heatran and most bulky waters; and Outrage just begs opponents to revenge you. Since Dragonite can take out any pokemon in the game with 2 well-aimed attacks, opponents have to guess which pokemon functions best as a counter in the current situation, then adjust to the attack Dragonite chose. But if you choose the wrong attack, it will be forced to switch out and take entry hazard damage yet again.</p>

<p>Because of this, a Rapid Spinner is a great companion for Dragonite. Magnezone is also a fantastic partner, allowing Dragonite to fire of STAB'd Outrages without worrying about Steel types coming in to ruin the day.</p>

 

[XxJohny2haixX]

<p>Because of Extremespeed's incredible power and priority, it is inadvisable to use a Jolly nature. Also, Outrage and Fire Punch miss out on key 2HKOs without the extra attack. Superpower's attack drops mean more with a Jolly nature, as well.</p>

Would be better if you can provide some damage calcs against; Skarmory, Bronzong, etc.

 

[Komodo]

I don't think a whole new set is necessary. It already has a Choice Band set, shouldn't ExtremeSpeed just be added to set comments of the existing one?

 

[Golden Sun]

I don't think a whole new set is necessary. It already has a Choice Band set, shouldn't ExtremeSpeed just be added to set comments of the existing one?

Why not just put extremspeed on the set comments like September said?

 

[MetaGross66]

Because its role changes from being a wall breaker to a revenge killer, though not as reliable as Scizor.

Edit: Well, it can be either one now.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

I don't think a whole new set is necessary. It already has a Choice Band set, shouldn't ExtremeSpeed just be added to set comments of the existing one?

Extremespeed changes the whole dynamic of the CB set. Instead of having incredible coverage and moveslot choices (Earthquake, Fire Punch, Superpower, Aqua Tail), you force yourself to lock in certain moves in order to still be a threat to Steel-types, especially Skarmory. Your moves become fixed, the strategy becomes centered around Extremespeed, and the purpose of the set changes. This set is mainly a revenge killer with wall-breaking capabilities while standard CBNite is all about wall-breaking. The ability to stop runaway Gyarados, Starmie, and Jolteon (to list a few) is something Scizor must do with Quick Attack, which is weaker than DNite's X-Speed.

252 Atk Adamant CB Scizor Bullet Punch vs. DDMence (just an example): 58.9% - 69.2%
252 Atk Adamant CB Scizor Quick Attack vs. DDMence: 39.3% - 46.2%
252 Atk Adamant CB Dragonite Extremespeed vs. DDMence: 53.5% - 63.1%

So Scizor's Bullet Punch is ~10% more powerful while Quick Attack is 25% less powerful. This was just an example to show that while, yes, Scizor's Bullet Punch is more powerful and can hit things for SE damage, the difference is not as great as one might think. The difference between Dragonite's Extremespeed and Scizor's Quick Attack, on the other hand, is substantial.

Somebody asked for damage calcs (keep in mind these are the same for the regular CB set as well). The difference is actually surprisingly small:
252 Atk Adamant CB Dragonite Outrage vs. Support Cresselia: 47.3% - 55.6%
252 Atk Adamant CB Dragonite Outrage vs. 252/252 Impish Hippowdon: 50.2% - 59.5%
252 Atk Adamant CB Dragonite Fire Punch vs. Spiker Skarmory: 49.7% - 58.7%
252 Atk Adamant CB Dragonite Extremespeed vs. standard Infernape: 66.6% - 78.5%
252 Atk Jolly CB Dragonite vs. Support Cresselia: 43.2% - 50.9%
252 Atk Jolly CB Dragonite vs. Spiker Skarmory: 44.9% - 53.3%
252 Atk Jolly CB Dragonite vs. standard Infernape: 60.4% - 71.3%
252 Atk Jolly CB Dragonite Outrage vs. 252/252 Impish Hippowdon: 46% - 54.3%

Rethinking the Jolly option now.

 

[Komodo]

You might as well remove Aqua Tail on the current set or slash it with ExtremeSpeed, the rest of the moves are the same anyway. An extra sentence or two in set comments is all it needs. I think a whole analysis over a single move change is a bit pointless.

Edit - Don't ignore my posts.

 

[jc104]

I think this set should probably replace the one in the analysis, unless you make it into a bulkier set. The only thing I wonder is why it still needs all that speed. It plays a different role entirely from the current set. Also, Extremespeed has much better neural coverage than bullet punch (remembering that this is now competeing with Scizor.) Your analysis is well written, although over-dramatic in places:

This variation of Choice Band Dragonite clearly illustrates why one would use Dragonite over Salamence. Salamence can run a similar set with slightly higher attack and much higher speed at the cost of bulk. However, Dragonite packs one attack that makes it a much more effective revenge killer: Extremespeed. Dragonite's speed is rather poor but its attack stat is excellent. So often has Dragonite been overlooked for Salamence because of that extra speed - well, no longer (fragment). With Extremespeed, Dragonite bypasses its low speed and hits opponents almost as hard as Scizor’s Bullet Punch. With just this one attack, Dragonite is transformed from a slow wallbreaker into a premium revenge killer. With Stealth Rock support provided, Extremespeed can 2HKO almost half of the OU tier, making almost any sweeper at around 50% health choice meat(?) for the dragon. What also makes Dragonite unique from Salamence is access to more powerful physical Fire-and Fighting-type attacks in Fire Punch and Superpower, respectively, allowing Dragonite to deal with Steel-types more effectively. Outrage functions as the primary damage inducer (only) after Steel-types have been removed from the match. Its power is too great to overlook.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>One should not underestimate the power of this set, as it is quite literally capable of 2HKOing everything in OU. Outrage is the main STAB (you previously described it as “filler”), and with its enormous Base Power, it will at least 2HKO every non-Steel Pokemon in the game (bar Shedinja), including Cresselia and Hippowdon with Stealth Rock support. Between Outrage and Superpower, Dragonite hits everything but Shedinja for neutral damage. Fire Punch will 2HKO the standard Bronzong and Skarmory (and OHKO Shedinja), while Superpower OHKOes Blissey without you having to lock yourself into Outrage. The shining glory of this set, however, is Extremespeed.</p>

<p>Because of Extremespeed's incredible power and priority, it is inadvisable to use a Jolly nature. (Explain why all the speed EVs then) Also, Outrage and Fire Punch miss out on key 2HKOs without the extra attack. Superpower's attack drops mean more with a Jolly nature, as well.</p>

<p>Predicting (some don’t like to think of it as guessing) your opponent's move incorrectly is a danger to any Choice item pokemon, and Dragonite is no exception, though its issues are amplified by his Stealth Rock weakness. With Superpower lowering Dragonite's attacking stat and Outage locking Dragonite into an attack for 2-3 turns, it is essential that you think before bringing Dragonite in. Superpower and Extremespeed are stopped cold by Ghost types; Fire Punch is stopped by Heatran and most bulky waters, and Outrage just begs opponents to revenge you. Since Dragonite can take out any pokemon in the game with 2 well-aimed attacks, opponents have to work out which pokemon functions best as a counter in the current situation, then adjust to the attack you chose. But if Dragonite chooses the wrong attack, he will be forced to switch out and take entry hazard damage yet again.</p>

<p>Because of this, a Rapid Spinner is a great companion for Dragonite, easing the dragon's switch-ins and Forretress and Tentacruel are particularly notable, laying down entry hazards of their own (are these hazards particularly helpful to Dragnoite? If not, remove this. Magnezone is also a fantastic partner, allowing Dragonite to fire of incredibly powerful Outrages without worrying about Steel types coming in to ruin the day. Many of the pokemon that come in to revenge kill Dragonite fall to Extremespeed in 2 hits, making these checks to the dragon only PP drainers late in the match. ( I don’t understand what you mean here)</p>

Changes in Bold. Removals in red

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Thanks a lot for the help. Editing the OP and made a few of my own changes as well. Removed the part on Forry and Tentacruel becuase when you 2HKO everything in the game, you don't need much more than Stealth Rocks. I also removed the last part because I don't know what I was talking about.

I'm still debating Jolly, though I make a point about it being unacceptable in the analysis. The EVs could use some work, I guess. I may put up an EV section paragraph.

Question: should I make a comparison to Scizor?

 

[Colonel M]

I hate to disappoint you, but it was mentioned in this thread. It just needs to be uploaded but I'm waiting for someone (MetaNite or someone else) to reserve Dragonite for short paragraphs + other minor fixes.

Due to that, this isn't necessary. Locking.