Dream World Ubers Sun Team

[j99ubers]

So this is my second DW Ubers RMT of Gen 5. Shortly after my last one, I found my team becoming less effective in the meta. So I decided to build a new team, based around something that could handle alot of threats while still providing an offensive threat. After trying to think of what the best Pokemon for this job would be a settled on one - Ho-Oh. This team has provided some great results for me peaking at number 1 on both Smogon and the Beta server (with a rating of above 1550 on both) and was there until the rating decay was introduced.

Team at a glance.

Ok, lets take a more in-depth look at each pokemon

Groudon@Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs:252HP/252Def/4Spe
Nature:Impish (+Def, -SpA)
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Dragon Tail

Ok, this is the teams main physical wall, with titanic defenses allowing it to easily shrug off some of the most powerful physical attacks in ubers. It checks major threats like RP Groudon,SD Arceus, SD and DD Rayquaza as well as the new threat of Gen 5, Zekrom. In addition to this it sets up the sunlight which is essential for this team, and sets up SR which allows many threats to be handled much more easily. The moves on it are fairly standard, and allow Groudon to hit hard as well as absorb attacks.

Shandera@Choice Scarf
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Att)
-Overheat
-Shadow Ball
-Curse/Flamethrower
-Hidden Power Rock/Hidden Power Ground

Ok, this thing is probably the strongest Pokemon introduced in Gen 5. It performs so many tasks for this team, that it probably wouldnt work without it. It traps and kills the Extremekiller Arceus as well as many other SD sets. It also removes Steel Arceus without much problem, and can destroy support Groudon, all with Overheat. Shadow Ball is there as its secondary STAB to hit things that resist Overheat. Curse seems like an odd choice but until Inconsistent is banned (if it ever is) then Curse stays on the team, and it also helps against Baton Pass teams and last pokemon sweepers. However Flamethrower would be nice to give a more consistent option for its main STABs. Finally, the Hidden Powers are there to help with specific pokemon. Hidden Power Ground is probably a better choice since this team really struggles with Heatran, but HP Rock makes Ho-Oh much less of a problem so this choice comes down to personal preference and the metagame itself.

Arceus@Dread Plate
Trait:Multitype
EVs:252HP/4SpA/252Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Att)
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Judgment
-Refresh

Ok, this may seem like just anti-metagaming, and while I got the idea for this from Jibaku to use against TR stall, I've tested it alot and it really does well against almost any type of team. It breaks alot of stall teams by itself, and against offense, its a CM Arceus so it more than holds its own. The main reasons for this is its few weaknesses (neither of which are very commonly seen in ubers) and fantastic mono-coverage. Due to its HP EVs it takes U-Turns from a +1 Scarf Genosect and Close Combat from a Scarf Terakion. If it CMs as a Kyogre switches in it beats all the choiced versions 1v1 so it has alot of uses. It also takes hits rather well, owing to its considerable bulk and speed which allows it to quickly recover off the damage.

Espeon@Shed Shell
Trait: Magic Mirror
EVs:4HP/252SpA/252Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Att)
-Hidden Power Ground/Hidden Power Fire
-Grass Knot
-Baton Pass
-Toxic

This is this teams substitute for the commonly seen spinners in Ho-Oh teams, as I find spinning in ubers can be difficult, if not impossible, due to the incredible bulk of the spinblockers. Hidden Power Fire is the preferred options on Espeon, however if Shandera is using HP Rock then Hidden Power Ground is necessary to allow this team to have a chance at hitting Heatran. Grass Knot is obviously there to hit Groudon and Kyogre as well as hitting Tyranitar for a large amount of damage. Baton Pass and Shed Shell on the same set may seem excessive but this team really hates hazards, so I use it to make sure that almost nothing can trap Espeon. Toxic allows Lugia and Ho-Oh to be handled much more easily as well as the Latis although for the most part Dark Arceus handles them in a CM war due to its immunity to Psycho Shock and Super Effective STAB.

Latias@Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 200HP/56SpA/252Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Att)
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Dragon Pulse
-Psycho Shock

This is my main Kyogre check in the team (originally Palkia but I was having alot of trouble with CM Ogre as well as repeated attacks from other forms of Kyogre). Due to Recover and its ability to CM alongside Ogre this definitely makes a better Ogre check than Palkia does in my opinion. Despite the fact this is included as a defensive pokemon, it also acts as one of the hands down best sweepers in the tier, tearing through many teams by itself, and even destroying its former arch nemesis Blissey thanks to the addition of Psycho Shock this gen. It also handles almost all other unscarfed Dragons thanks to its ridiculous power and bulk.

Ho-Oh@Leftovers
Trait: Regeneration
EVs:248HP/252Atk/8Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
-Sacred Fire
-Brave Bird
-Substitute
-Recover

Now we come to the star of the team. Acts as a wall (taking 50% from most Scarf Draco Meteors), a sweeper, a cleaner pretty much anything that the team requires of it. All it asks in return is that SR is off the field. If it can be kept off the field then this thing is hard to stop. Sacred Fire is pretty much mandatory on every Ho-Oh set due to its power in the sun and high burn chance, allowing it to wall even physical threats. Brave Bird is also mandatory on most Ho-Oh sets. It allows it to hit Palkia, Kyogre, Manaphy for alot of damage doing 60%+ to many Kyogre.
Substitute eases prediction and allows it to avoid status problems. Also due to its huge bulk its substitutes can often take multiple hits. Finally, Recover rounds out the set allowing Ho-Oh to increase its longevity and take repeated hits from even Palkia in the sun (or Kyogre if you can get it in the sun).

Threatlist:

Kyogre: This is a particularly big threat to any sun team, even though Latias handles most versions well, if it dies then I will have to sacrifice Groudon to allow either Ho-Oh or Arceus to come out and wall it. But this is one of the biggest threats to the team although for the most part it has handled it due to most players liking to switch their Kyogres into Ho-Oh and taking a Brave Bird.

Palkia: Palkia can be a problem but is walled by Ho-Oh in the sun, and can be beaten by Arceus in the rain, depending on what variant it is, its unpredictable but not overly threatening.

Dialga: The offensive variants are hardly a problem with Ho-Oh completely walling it, the real problem can be the SR variants, since Espeon has to sacrifice itself to stop SR, although thankfully in the sun Shandera can then come in and remove Dialga if its suffered some prior damage.

Mewtwo: Can be revenged by Shandera if its suffered a little prior damage and doesnt have too many CMs, but is very problematic if it starts to CM up and its even worse if it has recover.

Darkrai: Not too much of a problem since Ho-Oh takes most of its attacks without any problem, and they have to be careful about throwing around Dark Void due to Espeons presence. Can also be revenged by Shandera.

Groudon: The support variant hates both Espeon and Shandera, and the offensive variants are walled by my own Groudon. Not really a problem for this team. Of course it doesnt take too much from Ho-Ohs attacks due to its bulk but it hates Sacred Fire and the Burn chance that comes with it.

Rayquaza: The DD variant gives the team some issues but both Groudon and Arceus have the ability to take a +1 Outrage and hit back. Most other versions arent too threatening, although the mixed versions can give Ho-Oh some headaches but it often needs Outrage to kill it.

Latios: Not all that threatening if its doesnt have many CM boosts Ho-Oh handles it well. and without a critical hit it loses to Dark Arceus one-on-one in a CM war.

Latias: The same as Latios really, Dark Arceus beats it as well and Ho-Oh isnt too bothered by it.

Ho-Oh: Fairly difficult to handle, especially the SubRecover variants since alot of pokemon in my team cant really hurt it. Although Groudon, Latias and Ho-Oh should be able to stop it, it is still a huge threat that can never be discounted.

Giratina-O: Can be annoying due its good mixed stats but if it gets burned by Ho-Oh then it loses any real threat to this team. Shadow Sneak means Shandera cant revenge it well, but for the most part its more an annoyance than anything else.

Reshiram: Not too much of a threat since Ho-Oh handles it well, although Specs variants, or those with Stone Edge can be a problem, for the most part it isnt too hard to handle.

Zekrom: Most choiced versions arent too difficult to handle, since Groudon walls them, but the Mix versions can be really troublesome,
thankfully ,without hax, Dark Arceus can take most hits and once its used Draco Meteor once Groudon can handle it fine.

Arceus: I won't go through every form but for the most part, CM ones are handled by either Ho-Oh or Latias, or even my own CM Arceus. SD versions are handled by Groudon or removed by Shandera.

Tyranitar: A real problem for this team due to its ability to pursuit Latias and Shandera. The main way to handle this is through predcition. If it gets reduced to about 50% a +1 Latias can KO it but watch out for this in the team preview, a huge threat.

Genosekuto: Very annoying with its constant U-Turns but Ho-Oh can absorb just about anything it uses, but if they have the right pokemon to U-Turn to, it can prove difficult. Only the Scarf versions are very threatening.

Heatran: I haven't bolded this as a major threat since I believe that HP Ground is probably better for this team on Shandera. But if you dont use this then this is probably the single biggest threat to this team, particularly if its paired with something like Shed Shell Nattorei.

Credit for all the sprites go to Veekun.

In this threatlist, I have ignored alot of defensive threats, but that is because this team doesnt have too many problems with them due to the presence of Dark Arceus, Ho-Oh and Espeon.

Thats the end of this RMT, a team which takes advantage of two of the less common pokemon in Gen 5 Ubers (Ho-Oh and Espeon), rate away.

 

[syrim]

RMT

Fantastic team. It does a great job of retaining the ability to switch into most attacks while still maintaining the offensive presence to keep you from having to do that constantly. Obviously dedicated rain teams are going to be a problem particuaraly combined with a focus blast carrying mixed Zekrom......


Ho-oh is an amazing pokemon and you do an excellent job of supporting it. Your reliance on espeon is a little disturbing but I guess with proper prediction you can trap a gyro balling forry with Shandera. Nitro Resh also requires you to bait it, and if it's carrying stone edge your in a lot of trouble. There's really no way to handle that obscure weakness or the expected rain weakness without dismantling the team and ruining it's chances against stall. Ho-oh can function against rain, and can pivot easily with Groudon, unless of course they carry rock arceus, which goes into the same boat as above.

One concrete thing i would suggest is a little more speed creep on Ho-oh, since it can 2hko almost every variant of Kyogre, and this could grant you permanent weather control. I know you already have Latias, but eliminating one of the greatest threats to your team might be worth a few HP evs.

All in all a great team, good use of ho-oh and the cool to utilize bulky sun offense.

 

[j99ubers]

Thanks for the rate, I know you've played against this team alot, so you've obviously been able to identify some weaknesses. Yes, Espeon requires alot of prediction, and if the opponent does get hazards down then they're staying but I feel its easier to reflect than it is in to spin in ubers. Nitro Charge Resh might give me some problems, and it, along with stuff like Specs Ogre, have made me consider more HP Evs on Latias, since with enough investment it would take almost any attack from resh. And although Rock Arceus could be a problem if it has a second move that hits Groudon super effectively, I think Latias handles almost anything from it. I do wish Ho-Oh had more speed at times, but I'm not sure how much to add without losing too much bulk. Anyway thanks for the rate, I might consider altering the EV spreads on Latias and Ho-Oh (and maybe Groudon to give enough Special Defense to survive against Shandera.)

 

[trickroom]

Before I rate this team,

Magic Mirror + Baton Pass Espeon is illegal to use. All Magic Mirror Espeons are male so they cannot obtain Baton Pass as an egg move. I don't know what you can replace the Baton Pass move with but that combination of Baton Pass and the Dream World ability on Espeon is illegal.

This is a decently built team but you have to keep Espeon alive to bounce back hazards. Considering Espeon is quite frail, it probably won't be living long.

If Groudon is weaken, Swords Dance Garchomp can be troublesome. Haban berry will allow it to survive Latias's onslaught and KO with Outrage. I guess Arceus and Shandera can revenge kill it anyway.

Rock Polish Groudon can be irritating because it can kill your entire team with Earthquake and Dragon Claw will OHKO Latias. Arceus can survive but Groudon can run over it if Arceus is weaken.
You should keep your Groudon at high health.

Dragon Arceus can actually kill the entire team with Swords Danced Outrage, only Groudon can survive it. Since Arceus is faster, Latias can revenge kill it and it resists Fire.

 

[j99ubers]

Before I rate this team,

Magic Mirror + Baton Pass Espeon is illegal to use. All Magic Mirror Espeons are male so they cannot obtain Baton Pass as an egg move. I don't know what you can replace the Baton Pass move with but that combination of Baton Pass and the Dream World ability on Espeon is illegal.

This is a decently built team but you have to keep Espeon alive to bounce back hazards. Considering Espeon is quite frail, it probably won't be living long.

If Groudon is weaken, Swords Dance Garchomp can be troublesome. Haban berry will allow it to survive Latias's onslaught and KO with Outrage. I guess Arceus and Shandera can revenge kill it anyway.

Rock Polish Groudon can be irritating because it can kill your entire team with Earthquake and Dragon Claw will OHKO Latias. Arceus can survive but Groudon can run over it if Arceus is weaken.

Dragon Arceus can actually kill the entire team with Swords Danced Outrage, only Groudon can survive it. Since Arceus is faster, Latias can revenge kill it and it resists Fire.

Baton Pass isn't an egg move, its a move learned by Eevee and I think that some DW Eevees were released at the same time as the Eeveelutions. If it wasnt I think it would be illegal on PO. Espeon is fairly frail but thankfully, almost anything that sets up SR and can kill Espeon is promptly trapped and killed by Shandera, so for the most part I haven't found this to be too troubling (though when testing a wifi version of this team, it did become a real problem). SD Garchomp is slightly threatening but i have enough that outspeeds it and can hit it for major damage. For RP Grouudon I have one of the best RP Groudon checks that there is, support Groudon. He takes almost any attack from RP Groudon with ease and either phazes it or starts hitting it with its own EQs. Although Dragon Arceus definitely is a major threat, its probably the one thing I really lost out on when I switched from the original Scarf Palkia to Latias. It is incredibly threatening although most people don't run Outrage due to the prevelance of Scarfed Dragons with Draco Meteor and they prefer Dragon Claw. But yeh if they carry Outrage, then I have to hope that they either switch it into Ho-Oh behind a sub, and I burn it, or that it hits itself in confusion. So yeh that is a real problem to the team if Outrage becomes the norm on SD Dragon Arceus. Thanks for the rate.

 

[Colonel M]

If it wasnt I think it would be illegal on PO.

Don't use a simulator for stuff like this. Swords Dance + Baton Pass Blaziken was allowed for a while, not to mention that a simulator is not completely fool-proof. It is not the game; it merely simulates what is commanded to simulate.

The only thing is I can't quite find the confirmation. I do recall that Eeveelutions and the starters were males though.

EDIT: Bah, true. True.

 

[Jibaku]

Posting to say that this is Dream World Ubers and BP + MM is and should be legal due to the chance that a female Espeon may be released in the future (just like everything else)

 

[j99ubers]

The list of released DW pokemon thread lists Eevee as released on the first post

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3063230&postcount=1

 

[Gates]

So as you know, Joe, I was laddering with this team last night. Here are some thoughts of mine on it.

The only real problem I see with your team is that you need a Dragon/Ice resist. There were a lot of times while I was playing that Groudon died and I had no answer to ScarfZekrom afterwards. I feel like you're relying a ton on Groudon here, which is kind of dangerous since if he dies you basically have nothing left on your team to do his jobs of stopping rain and tanking physical attacks.

I could also go into random stuff like how I personally prefer SpD EVs on Groudon, how priority could help you, and how awesome Nitro Charge Ho-Oh is, but it would pretty much just be nitpicking. I also think Roar could be better on Groudon than Dragon Tail due to its higher accuracy and its ability to hit through Substitute. It's true that nothing really uses Substitute in Ubers, but as long as Inconsistent is unbanned you'll see the odd Octillery hiding behind it to get boosts.

Aside from that, I don't really have much to say other than this is a great team. :)

 

[j99ubers]

Thanks for the rate Gates. First of all most Ice attacks aren't very problematic since almost all in the uber tier are special attacks and Ho-Oh absorbs them with ease. Any Specially based Dragon attacks also go to Ho-Oh since he takes even Draco Meteors from Palkia and Dialga for about 50%. Groudon can also take most physical Dragon attacks but there definitely is a reliance on Groudon in this team, although Arceus definitely has alot of physical bulk. As for the other things I have considered using more SpD EVs on Groudon (at least enough to survive an Overheat from Shandera), and priority may help against Deoxys-A setting up SR who is sometimes difficult to stop, but im not sure that anything in my team can make use of priority. I might consider Roar over Dragon Tail to make dealing with Sub Ho-Oh slightly easier but I do like being able to deal damage when phazing, especially with things like Extremekiller who needs a bit of prior damage before Shandera can revenge him.

 

[cco]

I've been laddering with this team, and I'm wondering if Espeon could be replaced with Xatu. You'd lose a Groudon counter(no Grass Knot) but in my experience, Nattorei can 1HKO with Gyro Ball, making Espeon a shortlived counter. I could just be using it wrong, when do you usually bring out your Espy?

 

[j99ubers]

Well, Xatu does get Grass Knot but it is much weaker and slower than Espeon and the only advantage it has is access to Thunder Wave, but I'm not even sure if thats better than Toxic. The main thing Espeon does is reflect SR, and you can even afford to sacrifice it so that Shandera can come in and remove the SR'er. Its worth sacrificing Espeon to Dialga, Nattorei or Groudon so that Shandera can make sure that you keep SR off the field for the whole game.

 

[MyLifeIsAverage]

Having played aginst this team a couple of times, over the three games we played I won one and that was because I got down stealth rocks, this team is quite good at keeping them off of the field, but if they do get down, it almost a sure GG