Gen 2 [Gen 2 OU] Dino-Duck Offense (Denial Duck 2: Porygon's Revenge)

[xFactorymade]

This team is an updated/alternative version of an already very successful team I made up including Porygon2. The original team can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-2-ou-denial-duck-offense.3720371/

The original team was a very good option for a more balanced offensive team that could fairly safely scout, and often wall, various Snorlax sets. The team had one very, very annoying sub-par matchup, however: baton pass. While the original team was still GENERALLY favoured in the match-up against BP, it was really only about 60-40 odds and required some less-than-ideal movesets to even achieve that. Having a weaker matchup against a team that can completely negate your ability to properly leverage skill can be annoying, and I experience this first-hand for a few nights when roughly 40% of my matchups were against full blown BP teams. While I could sit on the forums all day whining about BP, I've decided to instead wipe up my bitch-boy tears and take matters into my own hands. This team is a direct response to all that BP has put me through; this team is Porygon's revenge.

The Team:

Snorlax @ Leftovers
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Zapdos @ Leftovers
IVs: 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Cloyster @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Toxic
- Spikes
- Explosion

Gengar @ Leftovers
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Hypnosis
- Explosion

Nidoking (M) @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower/(Thunder)
- Roar

Porygon2 @ Leftovers
- Return
- Curse
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Rather than rehashing the purpose of all of the mons on this team, I'll just go over the changes and what they achieve.

Snorlax: Now serves as a sleep absorber, all purpose special wall and general damage dealer. As previously stated, Porygon2 frees up Lax a lot by reducing the risk of a (typically less than) 50-50 curse war. This set is intended to deal with Jynx and Nidoking (along with other sleepers) more reliably, but also avoids giving free switch-ins to ghost types.

Cloyster: I changed this to the standard set. This moveset was arguably already the better choice, but on this team style I think it is by far the winner. Starmie will have more opportunities to come in on this team and this Lax variant will struggle to smash through teams as easily (especially Forrey-Skarm-Kou), so wearing it down with toxic will be more necessary. This set will also help to keep curse T-Tar variants at bay.

Nidoking (Replacement for Raikou): A bit squishy as a phazer, but this is less of an issue with Pory and sleep assist. Nidoking does an excellent job of phasing BP via an electric immunity and stab EQ for Jolteon, a bug type resistance and 4x stab for Scizor, ice beam for cleaning up and keeping out Marowak, and, while imperfect, a resist to Machamp's cross chop will likely force it into using EQ, which will whiff on a Zap switch in. Nidoking has the additional benefit of serving as a pretty effective cleaner, allowing it to clean up the remnants of a broken up BP team with relative ease. Another (small) sneaky benefit against BP is that many people will assume that they have lovely kiss checked with miracle berry, only to be surprised when they are phased out by roar. Outside of this roll, Nidoking is obviously just a very nice mixed sweeper and, crucially, comes with a toxic and electric immunity that will give it plenty of opportunities against common stall team options, such as Missy, Forrey, and Skarm.

Zapdos: With Nidoking handling the role of phasing, Zapdos is free to switch from being a mediocre offensive phaser to an ungodly special threat that refuses to go down.

---

Nidoking and the BP matchup:

With lead rest-talk Lax and Cloyster + Nidoking in the back, you pretty much cover all options for BP. Here are some examples:

Double Edge into T1 Belly Drum -> Smeargle Dead

T1 Spore -> Switch to Nidoking for lockout (mostly regardless of pass variant)

Double Edge into T1 Agility (crit dodged) into T2 spore -> T3 Cloyster switch to (fairly) safely KO or scare out a non-attack-boosted Wak w/ surf.

Double Edge into T1 Agility (crit dodged) into T2 Pass to Wak (eats double edge) -> T3 Cloyster switch to challenge Wak after the swords dance. This is more or less the highest risk highest reward outcome for the BP user, as they have about a 30% chance to win on the spot with rockslide hit w/ either a flinch or crit, but will get absolutely obliterated the other 70% of the time, losing their main sweeper and being left with a beat up Smeargle only to weaken a mon that will just go boom anyway.

As you can see, this combo has a fairly strong chance to beat BP even in the worst case scenario, while being incredibly strong against the typical T1 spore play. Nidoking even has options to avoid destiny bond Smeargle by simply chipping it or freezing it and then following up with roar when it is too weak to safely get back in. The opponent won't be able to keep the passers in against Nidoking, but every time they switch to an intended BP recipient in order to challenge Nidoking, they will have to take a decently strong hit.

Move Slot Considerations:

Flamethrower on Nidoking will likely be controversial, and for good reason. Without thunder, Starmie will have a hay day switching in on Nidoking. The obviousness of this can be exploited with smart double switches, but this is questionable. My main argument for flamethrower is that it helps Nidoking to make rest-curse Heracross think twice about trying to break through Nido and will discourage Forrey from coming in to threaten with boom. With Starmie being poisoned, para won't be as relevant with the thunder hit and having a 30% chance to give Starmie a free in after putting in so much effort to chipping it with toxic and spikes is annoying. Thunder does solve a bit of the issue of the prediction game when going to slap Skarmory (against stall teams with Starmie), but even a correct prediction will only count 70% of the time, which I find annoying. Thunder does obviously donk Cloyster as well, but Cloyster will likely be a little conservative on switching in at first given the standard set, and flamethrower will allow a safer cleanup on Cloyster once it has been chipped.

Fireblast on Nidoking is an option as well, but I personally prefer the consistency of flamethrower, both in terms of accuracy and PP. Unfortunately, Fireblast has a secondary effect when you miss where it deals 100% recoil damage to your soul, and this is just too much for me.

Lovely kiss, Fireblast, or Thunder over rest on Lax could be an interesting option for catching your opponent off-guard, but this could backfire pretty hard by severely hindering your catch all special wall's longevity. Alternatively, one could swap out earthquake for curse, but this is fairly exploitable by ghosts (and Jynx), both against offense and against stall. For many offensive teams, this choice really isn't an option (as role compression for dealing with curse Lax is required), but with this team, it isn't as forced. This helps take some of the pressure off of your Snorlax and, crucially, prevents an over-reliance on Lax from being exploited (via wall-breaking SD Snorlax sets and other booms).

Hypnosis and ice punch on Gengar is fairly important for providing reliable outs against various threats that may surprise the team. One noteworthy threat which is only partially accounted for is DE-Curse-Thunder-Rest Lax, which not only beats Pory 1 vs 1, but can exploit it by cursing up before revealing the set. In these instances, Gengar will be the go to switch in order to sleep the Lax (via hypnosis or rest) or attempt to freeze it, thus allowing it to be phased or dealt with in some other way. Pory can challenge or play around curse body slam sets on Lax (by intentionally eating a toxic or cursing up early, for example), but this is both risky and exploitable, and so Gengar is useful for providing a backup option for when this goes wrong as well.

 

[Siatam]

This team absolutely works, but I question the fixation on the BP matchup. Nidoking is undoubtedly a effective phazer against Smeargle, Scizor, and Jolteon but almost every phazer is effective enough against BP. Roar Nidoking is an interesting set, but I think current metagame trends (lots of Sleep Talk Snorlax, fast offensive threats like Alakazam, Jolteon, and Starmie) diminish its effectiveness. I think this slot could be changed to make the team more effective overall.

My suggestion for a Nidoking replacement is:

Steelix @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Roar
- Explosion

Steelix retains a similar defensive profile as Nidoking, but has good utility against both offense and stall teams. The aforementioned Sleep Talk Snorlax makes it difficult to utilize non-Thief Nidoking sets. Additionally Nidoking's 268 speed just isn't what it used to be. With offensive teams bringing faster threats, it is difficult for Nidoking to clean up weakened teams if Nido is not at 100% HP. Steelix helps your team with a matchup you recognize as difficult: Double Edge/Curse/Thunder/Rest Lax, and supports other team members with Explosion. Against offensive teams Steelix can frequently target Zapdos which can be a great benefit to Porygon2 and takes away one potential Sleep Talker to absorb Gengar's Hypnosis. Against stall Steelix can be used to explode on Skarmory after Curse boosting, or on Starmie (good for your Spikes game). With Porygon2 this team can play Steelix very aggressively since it is less concerned about keeping Steelix healthy to check the opponent's Snorlax. Steelix's inclusion does open up the team a little bit more to Machamp, but on the other hand it gives you another Explosion to work with to remove it.

I also have a few comments about you breakdown of Nidoking and the BP matchup - lead rest-talk Lax, Cloyster + any phazer is usually sufficient to handle BP.

T1 Spore -> Switch to Nidoking for lockout (mostly regardless of pass variant)

True for any phazer. Smeargle is not an effective passer without the threat of Spore. Realistically BP Smeargle should never Spore T1.

Double Edge into T1 Agility (crit dodged) into T2 spore -> T3 Cloyster switch to (fairly) safely KO or scare out a non-attack-boosted Wak w/ surf.

This neglects to consider that the opponent's pass occurs after your switch to Cloyster on T3. You switch to Cloy, then the opponent will likely BP to Jolteon. You can try to out predict the opponent with Spikes or Boom, but at the end of the day this line usually results in your phazer eating an attack from something with +2 speed. In this case you'd rather have a phazer that can eat attacks better than Nido (or even explode).

Double Edge into T1 Agility (crit dodged) into T2 Pass to Wak (eats double edge) -> T3 Cloyster switch to challenge Wak after the swords dance.

This interaction exists in some form against BP for basically every team that doesn't have 2 phazers (and can afford to sack 1 to Smeargle Spore). Consider however that the opponent doesn't have to pass straight to Marowak. They can easily pass to Scizor and then pass again on your switch or pass directly to Machamp.
Scenario 1: Pass to Scizor
You need to switch to your phazer or risk Scizor setting up SD.
If the opponent passes on your switch to Nidoking, you are threatened by a pass to +0 attack Marowak.
You will either need to predict or go Cloy.
Going Cloy on a 100% HP Marowak means you must explode - Surf does not OHKO. Marowak will eiher 3HKO (if it attacked on the switch) or 2HKO (if Swords Danced on the switch)
You can still survive the situation as long as Marowak does flinch or have substitute, but Nidoking threatened being OHKO'd by +0 Marowak does you no favors.
Scenario 2: Pass to Machamp
Will end with Cloyster booming after dodging a crit from +1 cross chop, Nidoking Roaring after eating a +1 attack, or maybe Zapdos forcing Machamp out after some clever switching.
In all these scenarios the only time Nidoking is superior to more common phazers is when facing a Machamp without Earthquake.

In conclusion Roar Nidoking is good against BP, but so are other phazers. The opportunity cost of using Nidoking makes the team more difficult to use in non-BP matchups.

Don't take this to mean the Nidoking version is unviable. It is a fine team to use, but I believe Steelix will allow this team to succeed more consistently.
If you want to keep Nido, I think it is important to include Thunder over Flamethrower on its moveset. Flamethrower eliminates its main benefit vs stall: Spikes shuffling. Trying to Spikes shuffle with Flamethower will flop against Starmie. Flamethrower's benefits against Hera and Forre are nice, but you always have Roar for Hera and Gengar for Forre. If anything Forrestress exploding on Nidoking is probably a net benefit for you. If you're still not sold, Cloyster coming in to explode on Flamethrower sets is going to be a more common occurrence than Forretress coming in to boom on Thunder sets.

 

[xFactorymade]

This team absolutely works, but I question the fixation on the BP matchup. Nidoking is undoubtedly a effective phazer against Smeargle, Scizor, and Jolteon but almost every phazer is effective enough against BP. Roar Nidoking is an interesting set, but I think current metagame trends (lots of Sleep Talk Snorlax, fast offensive threats like Alakazam, Jolteon, and Starmie) diminish its effectiveness. I think this slot could be changed to make the team more effective overall.

My suggestion for a Nidoking replacement is:

Steelix @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Roar
- Explosion

Steelix retains a similar defensive profile as Nidoking, but has good utility against both offense and stall teams. The aforementioned Sleep Talk Snorlax makes it difficult to utilize non-Thief Nidoking sets. Additionally Nidoking's 268 speed just isn't what it used to be. With offensive teams bringing faster threats, it is difficult for Nidoking to clean up weakened teams if Nido is not at 100% HP. Steelix helps your team with a matchup you recognize as difficult: Double Edge/Curse/Thunder/Rest Lax, and supports other team members with Explosion. Against offensive teams Steelix can frequently target Zapdos which can be a great benefit to Porygon2 and takes away one potential Sleep Talker to absorb Gengar's Hypnosis. Against stall Steelix can be used to explode on Skarmory after Curse boosting, or on Starmie (good for your Spikes game). With Porygon2 this team can play Steelix very aggressively since it is less concerned about keeping Steelix healthy to check the opponent's Snorlax. Steelix's inclusion does open up the team a little bit more to Machamp, but on the other hand it gives you another Explosion to work with to remove it.

I also have a few comments about you breakdown of Nidoking and the BP matchup - lead rest-talk Lax, Cloyster + any phazer is usually sufficient to handle BP.

True for any phazer. Smeargle is not an effective passer without the threat of Spore. Realistically BP Smeargle should never Spore T1.

This neglects to consider that the opponent's pass occurs after your switch to Cloyster on T3. You switch to Cloy, then the opponent will likely BP to Jolteon. You can try to out predict the opponent with Spikes or Boom, but at the end of the day this line usually results in your phazer eating an attack from something with +2 speed. In this case you'd rather have a phazer that can eat attacks better than Nido (or even explode).

This interaction exists in some form against BP for basically every team that doesn't have 2 phazers (and can afford to sack 1 to Smeargle Spore). Consider however that the opponent doesn't have to pass straight to Marowak. They can easily pass to Scizor and then pass again on your switch or pass directly to Machamp.
Scenario 1: Pass to Scizor
You need to switch to your phazer or risk Scizor setting up SD.
If the opponent passes on your switch to Nidoking, you are threatened by a pass to +0 attack Marowak.
You will either need to predict or go Cloy.
Going Cloy on a 100% HP Marowak means you must explode - Surf does not OHKO. Marowak will eiher 3HKO (if it attacked on the switch) or 2HKO (if Swords Danced on the switch)
You can still survive the situation as long as Marowak does flinch or have substitute, but Nidoking threatened being OHKO'd by +0 Marowak does you no favors.
Scenario 2: Pass to Machamp
Will end with Cloyster booming after dodging a crit from +1 cross chop, Nidoking Roaring after eating a +1 attack, or maybe Zapdos forcing Machamp out after some clever switching.
In all these scenarios the only time Nidoking is superior to more common phazers is when facing a Machamp without Earthquake.

In conclusion Roar Nidoking is good against BP, but so are other phazers. The opportunity cost of using Nidoking makes the team more difficult to use in non-BP matchups.

Don't take this to mean the Nidoking version is unviable. It is a fine team to use, but I believe Steelix will allow this team to succeed more consistently.
If you want to keep Nido, I think it is important to include Thunder over Flamethrower on its moveset. Flamethrower eliminates its main benefit vs stall: Spikes shuffling. Trying to Spikes shuffle with Flamethower will flop against Starmie. Flamethrower's benefits against Hera and Forre are nice, but you always have Roar for Hera and Gengar for Forre. If anything Forrestress exploding on Nidoking is probably a net benefit for you. If you're still not sold, Cloyster coming in to explode on Flamethrower sets is going to be a more common occurrence than Forretress coming in to boom on Thunder sets.

These are all fairly good points. I suppose I was being a bit brief and left out a bit of the required nuances in my post. Everything you've said is technically true, but seems somewhat unlikely to occur if your opponent doesn't know your team and/or isn't trying to outplay you really hard. What I will say, however, is that I find it most important to stop the initial pass to Wak no matter what (which is what those scenarios were meant to outline). If the second last scenario does occur with the opponent switching in to Scizor or Jolteon, going for boom/sack will at least allow for a safe switch to Nidoking post spore (though this may not have been burned yet as outlined in scenario four, but at least you'll be left with a game of prediction in this scenario - both on Cloy boom vs surf for sub/switch vs attack on Wak, and on the secondary/tertiary pass). This is sort of just the frustration of the BP matchup in general though - you have to make really dumb hedges or make insanely risky predictions if you don't have the perfect team comp for the matchup. Either way, once Smeargle has spored, Nidoking basically makes it irrelevant in most cases anyway (making it a "pseudo- 5v5", unless it has glare or something like that). As long as you make sure to not rest your sleep absorber again, you can continually switch in to the BP attempts with Nido and prevent the "GG EZ game" pass. With Nidoking's speed and access to ice beam, it seems to be able to prevent the slower threats from coming in without a pass and attempt to set up or dish out damage with little risk, especially once they are chipped. This team can definitely still lose to BP in the hands of a good player, but it will mostly stop unskilled players on ladder while still being strong against better players. The choice of Steelix is certainly strong though, but I worry that it might give Zap-Gengar-Cloyster combos too much opportunity to predict and come in. I also wonder how Steelix will fare against double electrics should Lax go down too early, but this is already a bit of a concern for this team (though Nidoking can apply some pressure to a rested or non-RT Zap in a pinch). Admittedly, this Nidoking is a bit of a misfit in normal matches, but does tend to be "good enough". The original team feels alot stronger in non-BP matchups, so this would likely just be a variant I'd play if I'm expecting to run into alot of BP. Either way, I'll definitely give Steelix a try. It certainly helps to deal with cases where the Porygon wall goes wrong, especially if Gengar is down (particularly against the uncommon case of a DE-Curse-Thunder-Rest Lax set, like you mentioned).

Overall, very good critique as usual Siatam. I'll definitely give the updated set a try.