Hail-discussing a potential suspect

[branflakes]

Would banning certain move/ability combinations be a possibility? In this case, it's a Pokemon with Ice Body, Protect and Sub. While a verdict certainly hasn't been reached regarding hail as a whole, we seem to have come to the conclusion that this specific "Stallrein" strategy is the most significant and broken aspect of hail in RU.

In other words, the potential suspect test of hail should be separate from the Stallrein set, which should probably be suspect tested with all users in mind.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

I feel that the only broken abusers of hail are the Ice Body abusers, as the Blizzard spammers have their share of counters and many checks to where they are able to be handled and make Hail a solid playstyle. I don't wish for Hail to be removed from RU, as the only broken aspect of it are the Ice Body abusers. If it is possible, I would support Ice Body being banned either altogether in RU, or the combination of Ice Body + Snow Warning, like the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. I know that this is very unlikely to happen, since we try to avoid complex bans as much as possible, but if it were to happen, I would support it since so far, the only broken part of Hail is Ice Body.

 

[SilentVerse]

I would disagree with the notion of attempting to complex ban Ice Body + Snow Warning, simply because Ice Body is such a huge part of hail that were this ban to happen, hail would essentially be limited to blizzspam or dumb stuff like ShakeItUp's silly TR Endeavor Hail team. Furthermore, there's also the fact that one of hail's best abusers, Glaceon, would effectively be banned from use in hail because its two abilities would be banned (Snow Cloak and Ice Body) with hail active which would, imo, be such a huge blow to blizzspam anyway that hail might as well just be banned outright, rather than attempting to nerf it so it stays in the tier.

 

[-Tsunami-]

I think we should either ban Ice Body + Snow Warning or just ban Snover. SV brings up some good points (except of course that he typo'd, as he obviously meant to say AMAZING instead of silly when describing my legendary TR hail team); however, if we ban Ice Body + Hail, we still keep a playstyle somewhat alive, alebit it a lot weaker. TR Hail would still be a form of hail that people could run, and Pokemon such as Rotom-F would still have some usage. Blizzspam would still be a viable strategy as well, even though without Glaceon it would be harder to pull off. Hail as a whole would become a lot less weaker and all of the strategies would become less viable through banning Ice Body + Snow Warning, BUT they would still be there and they would still be able to be effective in some situations. I personally see no issue with a complex ban other than that most of the community loathes them; I would normally agree with this, since doing things such as banning Speed Boost Blaziken while keeping Blaze legal would completely mess up the tiering system. However, considering we already have a precedent set in OU with the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, I see no issue with pressing forward with a complex ban of Ice Body + Snow Warning.

 

[Pocket]

Not to mention all the "broken" attributes of Hail is attributed to Sub + Protect stall by Ice Body mons. Seeing how these Pokemon are merely vessels of Ice Body + Snow Warning tactic, I find this complex ban justified. They're only broken (assuming what sv and Eonx said are true), because Ice Body Sub / Protect can "stall mons ad infinitum." Ban the broken aspect, and preserve the rest of the playstyle, since as ShakeItUp posted the Hail playstyle is still legit with mons like Rotom-F, Jynx, Endeavor mons, etc.

I'm still NOT convinced that other Ice Body users are borken to the same extent as Walrein, either. I'm sure that banning Walrein (if it's really broken) would resolve this issue, but I haven't tested other Ice Body users yet (why use an inferior Walrein (not named Glaceon)).

EDIT: EonX, complex clause bans nothing. That's the beauty of it. You can still use Glaceon in your team outside of Hail. It would suck, but it's still not banned.

You're also forgetting that banning Hail would kill Glaceon's usage anyways, so if you truly love your Glaceon you would defend Hail :>

 

[EonX]

While we do have a precedent set in OU thanks to their Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, that would be a bit more of a touchy thing to do here with Ice Body + Snow Warning. If we do end up banning Ice Body in any shape or form (whether it's just Ice Body or a complex ban with Snow Warning) we're effectively banning Glaceon entirely since Snow Cloak was banned alongside Sand Veil around the time Garchomp was unbanned in OU. I'm not sure if a complex ban should effectively ban a Pokemon like that since the aim of a complex ban in the first place is to A.) try to not ban a Pokemon and B.) keep from banning a playstyle. I guess doing a complex ban would be better in the long run, but I can easily see some people getting upset with it since we would effectively be banning Glaceon from RU (and NU for that matter, but meh)

 

[phantom]

It's not like Glaceon is even being used in NU. Jynx pretty much outclasses it and even without Jynx, it was subpar to begin with. Even if we did take other tiers into consideration when looking at these things (which we don't), no one's really going to miss Glaceon. I would just be in favor of banning Ice body outright, seeing as how no one would use it outside of hail anyway. RU isn't exactly new to complex bans, see: ShashPass. If anything, if hail can be preserved, I'd like that and so would a lot of other people. It'd give things like Jynx and Rotom-F a better chance at competing in RU and keep things fresh. Though I will say this, if any further bans have to be taken outside of Ice Body, then I think hail should just be banned altogether. I really don't want RU to become like OU where the next best abuser from some weather is banned and yet there is STILL a problem. I doubt this will happen, but it's still needed to be said.

 

[Molk]

Hail has been deemed an official suspect as of now, please take all discussion regarding hail to the np for the duration of the test. Thanks for participating :).