Partially Implemented Include Acupressure in Evasion Clause (BW)

[peng]

See title.

Acupressure is a cheesy move with the ability to double evasion ~14% of the time. In isolation this doesn't look too bad, but every time it doesn't call an Evasion boost it can instead call defense, special defense, or speed boosts which make it easier to get follow-up evasion boosts on subsequent turns, then snowballing.

There is 1 truly potent abuser of this, which is BW Tentacruel:

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rain Dish
- Substitute
- Protect
- Scald
- Acupressure

The combination of Substitute and Protect with Rain Dish provides Tentacruel many many opportunities to fish for Acupressure boosts on a wide range of Pokemon in BW OU. This is most relevant in Rain mirrors or Rain vs weatherless match-ups with uncontested Drizzle, but it is not completely out of the question to also pull this off even when the opponent has Tyranitar due to how dedicated Rains are to baiting Tyranitar with combinations of Spikes/Latios/Thundurus/Tornadus etc. There are multiple instances every year of this exact set cheesing wins in BW OU with early Evasion rolls and then snowballing, sometimes even paired with Healing Wish / Lunar Dance to reset the loop if it doesn't hit Evasion early. Hard counterplay is limited to 1) never ever losing the weather war vs Rain 2) Water Absorb Pokemon (easily baited and poisoned by other Rain waters). Even should-be checks like Encore Politoed, which is normally strong into SubTect Tentacruel, just lock it into Acupressure which is probably the move Tenta wants to be clicking 3 times anyway.

Although it hasn't been abused yet, there is another Pokemon that can achieve the same effect: Toxicroak

Toxicroak @ Black Sludge
Ability: Dry Skin
- Substitute
- Protect
- Acupressure
- ?

This does basically the same thing, just with lower starting bulk + different typing changing what it can set-up on. It probably also has potential to be stupid but Tentacruel is the real abuser here.

Proposal: Acupressure should be included in Evasion Clause, at least in BW OU but there's likely no downside to extending everywhere. This is already a cheesy luck-based move, but permanent Rain + decent abusers in BW make this more consistent than the raw odds would suggest.

 

[peng]

ok, took 20 mins for Toxicroak to be proven too:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-2073871753-w7co7ik7yexlg3w8h2cmef47szdz6pjpw

 

[Finchinator]

Proposal: Acupressure should be included in Evasion Clause, at least in BW OU

I support this when speaking strictly about BW OU. Tentacruel has some uncompetitive moments and it does fit the bill of evasion clause. I have no comment about other generations.

 

[mushamu]

I know nothing about BW OU but I personally forward the implementation of Accupressure's ban to other competitive generations as well. Boosting evasion already breaks evasion clause, and helps with being consistent with other evasion related bans like Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and luck based items (Brightpowder and Lax Incense). We banned it in Monotype when I was council under the evasion clause (Substitute + Protect Drapion proved it was uncompetitive there) and there's no downside to nuking it in other tiers considering the precedent and the fact that there shouldn't be a need to prove that it is uncompetitive. It would be better to remove it now under the evasion clause completely than wait and "find out" it should not belong in other tiers through other abusers similar to other uncompetitive elements like Shadow Tag and the luck based items.

The bottom line is that there's no inherent difference in how Accupressure works in comparison to other evasion related mechanics which should be enough to get it removed. It's an extremely uncompetitive move that has no business being in a healthy tier whatsoever because as long as decent Pokemon get access to it then it has potential to cheese games away.

 

[Darkmalice]

I have played against DOU ladder teams built around Accupressure. Those matches become either match-up based, like auto-losing to Sacred Sword, or just based on whatever dice rolls happen with Accupressure. Those matches were uncompetitive, and it was comparable to Moody when it could boost Evasion. Except better than Moody in DOU since you could target your ally.

Haven't played in BW OU for a long time, but from my experiences with DOU, I agree with adding it to Evasion Clause. The move is inherently uncompetitive, makes games unhealthy, and I cannot imagine the move being used in a way that does make games more competitive.

 

[Karxrida]

Doesn't even need to roll evasion to be stupid. Imagine a Mega Medicham in ORAS/SM getting a +2 boost to Attack or Speed it wouldn't otherwise have.

I see no downside to banning the move in all generations under Evasion Clause. It adds nothing to the game and only detracts because it exists purely to encourage RNG bullshit.

 

[big pichu]

I have played against DOU ladder teams built around Accupressure. Those matches become either match-up based, like auto-losing to Sacred Sword, or just based on whatever dice rolls happen with Accupressure. Those matches were uncompetitive, and it was comparable to Moody when it could boost Evasion. Except better than Moody in DOU since you could target your ally.

Haven't played in BW OU for a long time, but from my experiences with DOU, I agree with adding it to Evasion Clause. The move is inherently uncompetitive, makes games unhealthy, and I cannot imagine the move being used in a way that does make games more competitive.

Speaking as someone who's been experimenting a decent amount with Acupressure in Doubles metagames, I feel like it's been surprisingly interesting with regards to modifying how you need to play depending on what boost you get (esp since realistically it's hard to get several useful, high impact boosts off in most cases) but evasion is definitely a tricky issue that kinda ruins the party. In the case of DOU specifically, it feels like the setters arent good enough right now for it to be a huge issue, but it's something I'd want to look at after digging into it more and it seems like its a separate issue than whats brought up here wrt BW OU.

 

[ABR]

I don’t even know if it’s broken but evasion is evasion, definitely ban it (in all tiers)

 

[Finchinator]

At this point after discussing it, I don’t see much of a reason to keep a move like this that can boost evasion legal within any of our official metagames or generations.

I think this is a minor quality of life change that can only help and we should act on the OP. I support removal of Acupressure.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Random Battles will not be removing Acupressure from Gen 8 Random Doubles Battle or other random formats that may use it as a result of this thread or any actions taken within.

This is not relevant to the current case, but it's something I'll get a lot of questions about as a result of this and I'd rather make a statement sooner rather than later after discussion among the council.

 

[Conflict]

Just remove it. Its funny if Acupressure Tentacruel or Drapion works but its honestly mostly rolling a die (somewhat weighted in rain tentas case) for a cheap win. Nothing of value will be lost by an AP ban - we only lose another cheesy and luckreliant wincon.

Fully support the ban.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I have experimented with acupressure the most in gen 9 in top ladder, and I can safely say that this move should be banned in gen 9 as well. I have actually gotten numerous wins in 1900's with acupressure tsareena and hisuian qwilfish both having detailed post made by myself.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-metagame-discussion.3710915/post-9547259 example post as well as replays for acupressure tsareena

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2042262070 replay for qwilfish (this is my favorite because it literally was 1v1ing a +6 corv LOL)

here's a funny image btw LMAO

I had actually called for acupressure to be banned in this post but fell on deaf ears probably cus i'm not a tour player. Ironically enough this wouldn't be the first time I gave hard evidence of a hax strat being uncompetitive/broken and it then leading to a ban lol. Yes the tsareena set still works in DLC 2 btw. The qwilfish is actually pretty decent cus the bulk with eviolite is actually pretty useable and then you have intimidate too, main issue is encore and shit but if you get a first try evasion your usually chilling. There's no real argument to be made to keep this move imo. The only notable abusers of acupressure in gen 9 are tsareena and qwilfish but I think its easy enough to get evasions with them + survive and be a menace for the move to be banned via evasion clause. Acupressure Tsareena hard 6-0es stall btw with taunt bullet seed so that's probably reason enough to get rid of the move ngl

Glad I have a badge this time for this discussion cus last time I didn't get to comment about sand veil in gen 8 when it was my team being used : ( but now I am not missing out so that's nice

Forgot to put qwilfish set

G O O D O D D S (Qwilfish-Hisui) @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Acupressure
- Crunch / waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

EDIT: final note but I want everyone to know, drapion is the best acupressure user by far is drapion and its not in gen 9. It's immune to toxic/toxic spikes, immune to prankster, cant get crit because of shell armor, better defensive stats, has knock off, better defensive typings than the rest too. If you don't ban the move now it will literally get banned anyways in the next game drapion is in so not banning it is kinda delaying the inevitable. If u don't believe me that's ok because I'll be waiting : )

 

[Finchinator]

Acupressure is now banned from BW OU after unanimous council agreement.

It is deemed an uncompetitive variable in the metagame, which is largely thanks to the Evasion component and its ability to snowball into unplayable gamestates. These quality-of-life changes have happened on various occasions since the end of the generation and we find it best to assure the metagame is determined by skillful play when possible, not variable strategies involving evasion such as Acupressure Tentacruel.

Tagging Marty dhelmise to implement this when possible.

We will leave this thread open as other generations may be following suit in the future, but this discussion is now meant for those and not BW, where this is resolved.

 

[Karxrida]

Finchinator, I'd like some clarification if the new move ban is considered to fall under Evasion Clause or not. Your tweet from earlier today implied the former while your above post makes no direct mention of EC, just an implication. If the new move ban is considered to be covered by Evasion Clause, then it should probably extend to all generations with Acupressure and across all tiers for consistency purposes.

And it's not like the move is only on unusable Pokémon in OU in later gens. Like I said before, Mega Medicham has access to it, and there are a few other Gen 6/7 OU-viable picks (Shuckle, maybe Toxicroak?) that can probably do dumb cheese if given the opportunity.

Apologies for the overly legalistic questions. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

 

[dhelmise]

Given that this was a direct ban from OU and not implemented into BW's Evasion Clause (that would require a lot more discussion from all BW playerbases), I've implemented the ban and marked the thread as a partial implementation.

Finchinator peng

 

[Finchinator]

Finchinator, I'd like some clarification if the new move ban is considered to fall under Evasion Clause or not. Your tweet from earlier today implied the former while your above post makes no direct mention of EC, just an implication. If the new move ban is considered to be covered by Evasion Clause, then it should probably extend to all generations with Acupressure and across all tiers for consistency purposes.

It’s up to other generations to discuss and determine what they do. I hope they ban it, but I have no say over what happens in those generations and was not going to hold up BW for the sake of catering to them when it could take weeks/months.

Basically:

We will leave this thread open as other generations may be following suit in the future, but this discussion is now meant for those and not BW, where this is resolved.