Metagame Inheritance

Ivy

resident enigma
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A fun little Xurkitree set:
Slurpuff (Xurkitree) @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball / Surf
- Psychic

With a little Terrain support (in my case Koko Landorus-T) this dude can instantly Unburden and dish out some nasty Thunderbolts. On a predicted switch you can even CM for lasting damage beyond the Terrain, which also improves the coverage moves and rounds out its bulk. Psychic was solely for Mega Venusaur (and other grass types), but Slurpuff donates so many interesting moves (i.e. Flamethrower) it could be replaced.
 
I have a rather HyperOffensive team:

Alakazam @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Moonblast

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Tapu Lele @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Return
- Close Combat

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Defog
- Tailwind
- Toxic

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Grass Knot

Blacephalon, Lele, and Alakazam are monsters, MPinsir is for sweep/ Wallbreak (I think, nothing needs to be said about those 4). Jolteon is literally just there to counter the Lando sets that copy Sceptile / get Unburden in E-Terrain. Outside of that, it is a momentum grabber.

Type:Null is one, that I am reaaalllyyy fond of. With Regen, and the Movepool (copying Tornadus-T), I use to to switch out and grab momentum. Defog/ Toxic is nice, and Tailwind for some lategame Sweep with my mons. I really think that Type:Null could be a little bit higher on that list, as it does soooo much, soooo well (like, you only need this mon as a defensive glue + 5 offensive Mons). I hope, it moves higher up in the Viability List.
 
i want to post again this amazing set of Guzzlord (Tornadus Therian) that i post about almost 1 year ago


Guzzlord @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 152 Atk / 116 Def / 236 SpD, or just run Max HP Max SpD with some Defense
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature / Sassy Nature
- U-Turn
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
- Hammer Arm

i used this set to check M-Gyarados before, but now it still relevant in current meta to check Blacephalon

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord in Sun: 239-282 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Blacephalon V-create vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Guzzlord: 199-235 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

i listed 152+ Atk just for OHKO Tyranitar wth Hammer Arm
152+ Atk Guzzlord Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 340-404 (99.7 - 118.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
but otherwise, just use Max HP Max SpD

sure, it's still 2hkoed with specs focus blast, but with this atleast you can check it.
i nominated to B though, C+ is too low for this.

You can do with Mienshao too tho, it gets dragon stab (dual chop) and Fake Out, but i prefer to opt a slower U-Turn (Hammer Arm) and Foul Play. it didn't always need the dragon stab anyway.

*reason edit = change EVs and nature
 
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i want to post again this amazing set of Guzzlord (Tornadus Therian) that i post about almost 1 year ago


Guzzlord @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 152 Atk / 116 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-Turn
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
- Hammer Arm

i used this set to check M-Gyarados before, but now it still relevant in current meta to check Blacephalon

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord in Sun: 239-282 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Blacephalon V-create vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Guzzlord: 199-235 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

sure, it's still 2hkoed with specs focus blast, but with this atleast you can check it.
i nominated to B though, C+ is too low for this.
The main reason why Guzzlord was ranked at C+ was Innards Out, but with the ability banned, i was going to nom it to drop even to UR, but your post made me think that it isn't THAT Bad without it, so, i won't nom a drop, but i think it can stay at least at C+
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
i want to post again this amazing set of Guzzlord (Tornadus Therian) that i post about almost 1 year ago


Guzzlord @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 152 Atk / 116 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-Turn
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
- Hammer Arm

i used this set to check M-Gyarados before, but now it still relevant in current meta to check Blacephalon

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Guzzlord in Sun: 239-282 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Blacephalon V-create vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Guzzlord: 199-235 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

sure, it's still 2hkoed with specs focus blast, but with this atleast you can check it.
i nominated to B though, C+ is too low for this.

You can do with Mienshao too tho, it gets dragon stab (dual chop) and Fake Out, but i prefer to opt a slower U-Turn (Hammer Arm) and Foul Play. it didn't always need the dragon stab anyway.
run minimum speed and a -speed nature tbh. its REALLY helpfull for pivoting, and id consider a +spc def nature just so you can tank blac's eruption a bit better. 48 percent is very very risky, especially if rocks are up. i dont think guzz really needs the extra attack, especially with foul play on its belt and i doubt the extra attack helps beat anything, meanwhile the extra spc def basically helps guzz laugh at blac and other special attacks fired at it.

this goes for all regenvester pivots tbh. -speed and max out special defense is the way to go.

and yeah, i think guzzlord should be lowered to D, since innards out REALLY made it annoying, but guzzlord(dispite checking certain blac) still isnt quite up to par with other regenvesters like alolan muk, buzzswole, and etc. especially when its only real viable set is a regenvest, its kinda predictable.
 

Jrsmash9

jrsmash that timer
Thought I would share some cool sets to check some of the most threatening pokemon in this meta Megacham and Blacephalon.

Spiritomb @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Foul Play
- Parting Shot
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

I was looking for a counter for medicham on stall and this was the best thing I could come up with. It does its job pretty good but can be weakened through hazards so you need double defog. It also does a good job checking snorlax which can be annoying and in a pinch heal a weakened teammate with z parting shot.

Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Pursuit
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- U-turn

I wanted something that could trap blace and switchin and this is what I came up with. You can revenge kill blace 100% if they are locked into a fire or ghost move as pursuit kills blace from full if they switch. You can also directly switch to blace on anything other then superpower and either pursuit or hydro. This can also pursuit trap some other mons like mega alakazam, azelf, latios, and gengar.
 
So any chance Mega Gyarados will be getting unbanned know that Shell Smash (the main reason it was sacked) finally got the boot?
Yes, this is what I want to talk about. With Shell Smash gone, I see it as no better than Mega Zard X, Medicham or Gardevoir (which is underrated) as it's no longer able to sweep both Offense and Stall at once, considering it ONLY has 81 Speed (all the megas I mentioned are 100 Speed). It won't be broken in my opinion.

Also Victini Zard X has no walls btw, don't know why ppl don't use it. Please people, tone down your boner for E-speed.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
So any chance Mega Gyarados will be getting unbanned know that Shell Smash (the main reason it was sacked) finally got the boot?
Yes, this is what I want to talk about. With Shell Smash gone, I see it as no better than Mega Zard X, Medicham or Gardevoir (which is underrated) as it's no longer able to sweep both Offense and Stall at once, considering it ONLY has 81 Speed (all the megas I mentioned are 100 Speed). It won't be broken in my opinion.

Also Victini Zard X has no walls btw, don't know why ppl don't use it. Please people, tone down your boner for E-speed.
NO. SD simple gyara made stall/balance LITERALLY unplayable and gave offense a run for its money too. idk why SS was so feared, i feared simple SD with crunch, liquidation and aquajet WAY more then SS as a balance/stall player. please dont put that thing back into this tier.

to put it into perspective, heres intimidate tapu fini being almost 2hko'ed by it after -1 intimidate.
+3 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 141-167 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 114-134 (33.2 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
this is the ONLY stallmon who can hope to tank a hit. otherwise EVERYTHING ELSE in the tier is 2hkoed:
+2(intimidate pre-mega) 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and even then, you better click whirlwind or pray to your gods for a burn, or its setting up to +6 on your face.

its also immune to prankster, has priority, has a great dual stab with moldy, and not to mention its pretty bulky. if you let this thing back into the tier all semblance of stall will be eliminated completely. and dont get me started on their 20% chance to lower defense. Im not going to be that guy who says "stall/balance should rule" but please at least let me use it in this tier lmao. if simple gets banned, then MAYBE id say its considerable. but tbh, id rather not have a mold breaker mon that can get to +4 in a single turn with no reprocussions or downsides and has access to priority.

the difference is stall can at least TRY to prepare for medicham, gardevoir, and charizards(intimidate/unaware cress, chansey, flash fire) main sets, but gyara simply says "lol" to any attempt stall or balance makes to stop it.
 
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run minimum speed and a -speed nature tbh. its REALLY helpfull for pivoting, and id consider a +spc def nature just so you can tank blac's eruption a bit better. 48 percent is very very risky, especially if rocks are up. i dont think guzz really needs the extra attack, especially with foul play on its belt and i doubt the extra attack helps beat anything, meanwhile the extra spc def basically helps guzz laugh at blac and other special attacks fired at it.

this goes for all regenvester pivots tbh. -speed and max out special defense is the way to go.

and yeah, i think guzzlord should be lowered to D, since innards out REALLY made it annoying, but guzzlord(dispite checking certain blac) still isnt quite up to par with other regenvesters like alolan muk, buzzswole, and etc. especially when its only real viable set is a regenvest, its kinda predictable.
i run the specified attack to OHKO Tyranitar though.
152+ Atk Guzzlord Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 340-404 (99.7 - 118.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
but yeah, if the only main reason to just check blace, it should give the remaining EVs to HP and SDef with Sassy Nature
i forgot to changed it to brave and give minimum speed. thanks for the correction.

Also Victini Zard X has no walls btw, don't know why ppl don't use it. Please people, tone down your boner for E-speed.
if people use Tini Zard X again i think people will run Rhyperior again though. which is solid answer to zard X.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming

For the love of Arceus, please rank Mega Aggron somewhere
Now, don't get me wrong, Aggron has many flaws. Pre-mega, it's stuck with a putrid Rock/Steel defensive typing, making it hard to actually get in and mega evolve at times. It also has pretty mediocre special bulk, and considering how common Fire mons like Blacephalon and Heatran are, that's never a good thing. Finally, it has to compete with tons of other viable megas for a teamslot such as Medicham, Alakazam, Lopunny, Pinsir, etc.

With that said, its advantages cannot be understated either. Upon mega evolving, not only do you have a colossal 230 base defense and an amazing pure Steel defensive typing, but you also got Filter, further enhancing your already awesome bulk. With all this considered, you can imagine that Mega Aggron is quite adept at shaking off most physical blows. And indeed it does:

+6 252 Atk Terrakion Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 280-333 (81.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 267-316 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 283-334 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another thing that seperates Aggron from other walls is its power. Most walls like Tapu Fini, Chansey and Celesteela are left quite passive. Not Mega Aggron! With a base 140 Attack (For comparison, that's equal to Darmanitan, and higher than Tyranitar and Salamence), it can take hits and dish 'em out.

Here's a list of viable donors.

Clefable: My personal favorite donor, and the one I use. Pre-mega, you can get Magic Guard to avoid hazard damage, which can be really useful when using Aggron to check a physical sweeper gone amuck without having to gamble with post-hazard damage rolls. Clefable also gives you a great STAB in the form of Meteor Mash, as well as Knock Off and Soft-Boiled.

Dhelmise: Similar to Clefable, except you get an even better STAB in Heavy Slam and hazard removal in Rapid Spin in exchange for a worse defensive ability pre-mega and a less reliable form of recovery in Synthesis.

Arcanine: Probably the worst of the bunch, but it still has some uses. You're stuck with a pretty mediocre STAB in Iron Head, and you get a less reliable form of recovery. However, you can choose between Flash Fire or Intimidate as your pre-mega ability, and you get some cool tools like Will-O-Wisp.

With all things considered, I think Mega Aggron is worthy enough to be placed in B-, perhaps low B.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Lcass4919 Can you answer the question why Masquerain isn't banned as a donor this gen? Or is it just not in the OP?
It's not banned this generation. Here is the post where it was banned last generation, I didn't see a single post that did a great job summing it up, but basically Intimidate + QD was too good at setting up in front of a large portion of the metagame. It hasn't really been a problem this generation (yet), at least partially because it hasn't been very popular. The high presence of Torkoal inheritors and ETerrain teams in the meta hurts Suicune, the main abuser, and Mega Venusaur can now also run a similar set from Bellossom trading base intimidate for Strength Sap.

tl;dr it's not banned this generation because nobody has really crusaded for it to be banned. If someone has more insight on how it's worse than last gen I'd be interested to hear it.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Inheritance from Politoad.

Swampert @ Swampertite
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch / Ice Beam
- Encore / Hypnosis

Swim, sweep. Come in on an Electric Attack: Encore serves as a pleasant surprise, as they expect you to go last only for the Mega evolution to push you first. Swampert’s coverage is the same as it would normally be.

Hypnosis is an option if you want insurance on your final turn of rain to hit something hard the next turn, without fear of being slower.

239 X 2 = 478 Speed.

nv
- Mega Evolutions lose their inherited ability upon Mega-Evolving.
 
NO. SD simple gyara made stall/balance LITERALLY unplayable and gave offense a run for its money too. idk why SS was so feared, i feared simple SD with crunch, liquidation and aquajet WAY more then SS as a balance/stall player. please dont put that thing back into this tier.

to put it into perspective, heres intimidate tapu fini being almost 2hko'ed by it after -1 intimidate.
+3 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 141-167 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 114-134 (33.2 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
this is the ONLY stallmon who can hope to tank a hit. otherwise EVERYTHING ELSE in the tier is 2hkoed:
+2(intimidate pre-mega) 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and even then, you better click whirlwind or pray to your gods for a burn, or its setting up to +6 on your face.

its also immune to prankster, has priority, has a great dual stab with moldy, and not to mention its pretty bulky. if you let this thing back into the tier all semblance of stall will be eliminated completely. and dont get me started on their 20% chance to lower defense. Im not going to be that guy who says "stall/balance should rule" but please at least let me use it in this tier lmao. if simple gets banned, then MAYBE id say its considerable. but tbh, id rather not have a mold breaker mon that can get to +4 in a single turn with no reprocussions or downsides and has access to priority.

the difference is stall can at least TRY to prepare for medicham, gardevoir, and charizards(intimidate/unaware cress, chansey, flash fire) main sets, but gyara simply says "lol" to any attempt stall or balance makes to stop it.
I see. Forgot about Bibarel sets. Well, that settles it then.

After actually laddering for a while, I am pretty disappointed to see that people lack the initiative to try and experiment sets and just use whatever works. It's the reason most megas I see are Pinsirs and they get mad when their Pinsir gets walled by common Stall teams and accuse the meta of being Stally. I am going to share some sets which hopefully open people's minds that PURE Special/Physical is NOT always better than mixed sets.

Kecleon (Azelf) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

All the stall teams I see didn't adapt and falls to this set, and it only gets better because Innards Out got banned. This beats so much of metagame threats, especially mons with slower than 115 Speed.

Torkoal (Blacephalon) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Solarbeam / Earth Power
- Superpower

Let me ask you. Why the hell you wouldn't use something to hit resists? If you meet Hydreigon or Guzzlord and it checks your Blace, it's your fault.

if people use Tini Zard X again i think people will run Rhyperior again though. which is solid answer to zard X.
Then carry Glaciate or Energy Ball, Victini learns it. Rhyperior in Inh loses Solid rock so if anything, it'd get 1-2HKO'd.
 
Someone is playing trickroom on the ladder other than me ? Marowak alola victini hit really hard with the duo stab v create and boltstrike
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
if people fear stall, theres a mon id like to introduce you too:

protean mixed blac with boltbeam and knock off+drain punch(hits chansey harder then low kick iirc). stall has a EXTREMELY hard time dealing with it. as you can remove AV from regenerators and can knock off chansey and drain punch it. its offenses are also both above average, and its speed tier is just enough to threaten some offensive pokes.

Then carry Glaciate or Energy Ball, Victini learns it. Rhyperior in Inh loses Solid rock so if anything, it'd get 1-2HKO'd.
charizard SHOULD run grass knot, since it is boosted by tough claws, and not many ground or water types dont take at least 80 from it.
 
Someone is playing trickroom on the ladder other than me ? Marowak alola victini hit really hard with the duo stab v create and boltstrike
I've posted one tr team i've been using on ladder. If you're interested, i can send you the pokepaste of the team.
 
Ok. I don't think anyone talked about this before because this is new due to Gen 2 transfer thing. But now, there's a new cancer fun set if you want to use, which is parafusion Pidgeot.

Dragonite (Pidgeot) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Hurricane / Substitute
- Dynamic Punch
- Substitute / Roost

The bolded moves weren't legal in the same set before because it requires you to transfer through gen 2. This is probably more of a fun set than competitive but I can guarantee you this will be as annoying as Chatot sets if used correctly.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Ok. I don't think anyone talked about this before because this is new due to Gen 2 transfer thing. But now, there's a new cancer fun set if you want to use, which is parafusion Pidgeot.

Dragonite (Pidgeot) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Hurricane / Substitute
- Dynamic Punch
- Substitute / Roost

The bolded moves weren't legal in the same set before because it requires you to transfer through gen 2. This is probably more of a fun set than competitive but I can guarantee you this will be as annoying as Chatot sets if used correctly.
'Fun'

Anyway I personally find in the current meta two things kinda overwhelming, especially at a teambuilding level, and possibly suspect worthy.

1) Blacephalon
I originally thought that the banning of Shell Smash would be enough to make Blac not op, but I honestly can't say that I've found this to be the case. Between Specskoal/Scarfkoal, Nidothings, and Kecleon sets (and some others but imo those are the ones that provide the most trouble) its basically impossible to find a switchin to Blac which isn't Flash Fire (or Drizzle ig), which is really limiting. This combined with its good speed tier and ability to effectively run multiple items makes it very difficult to play against. I have personally found that running multiple forms of priority / chipping blac with things that can take one hit to put it into range of revenge killing has been most reliable way of playing against it.

The fact that the movepools of Flash Fire Pokemon aren't that good only adds to the difficulty of checking Blac. Arcanine, the best Flash Fire donor I M O, and certainly the best defensive one, can't touch Blac with common sets outside of Iron Head, and I have yet to see one running Crunch. More offensive inheritors will probably have ~the same amount of luck as other revenge killers, with the exception of being undoubtedly superior against choiced variants.

In defense of Blac, it's frail as all hell and easy to revenge kill with priority from stuff like Lopunny, Ttar, Pinsir, or Aqua jet users. However it resists or is immune to quite a few common priority types, including Normal, Fighting, Ice, Fairy, and Steel. EDIT: In all fairness however, once it's in and you know the set it's quite a bit easier to check, if not counter. The problem is you can just switch due to a lack of common pursuiters / entry hazards and get pivoted back in later to pick up another kill. It reminds me of Pheromosa tbh, except without the U-Turns.

I'm curious as to how others find Blac and how they have gone about checking it.

2) Magnet Pull
I should say this up front: I hate trapping abilities. Jsyk.

I'm a lot more conflicted about this than about Blac. I know that Shed Shell is an easy counter to Magnet Pull. However the fact that Magnet Pull is extremely common on the ladder has made it impractical to run anything other than Shed Shell on defensive steels (some exceptions apply, see Doublade). If you run say, lefties, you're leaving your team open to having that Pokemon removed and having something like Terrakion!Malamar or whatever you needed that steel to check sweep. Shed Shell is also not 100% reliable, because Knock Off exists. For example: your Celesteela checks their Terrakion!Malamar**. Cool. You switch it in because that's how you avoid getting swept*. They Knock Off as you switch in. You are now forced to either allow the Terrakion to chunk your team or risk losing your only check to it as they switch to their Magpuller, whatever it is. even if you have a pivot move (as commonly Steela do), if you're ever in at the same time as their Magpuller, your mon is dead, and you pretty much lose.

Sorry if that was a bit too hypothetical, but I feel that trapping important parts of defensive cores, combined with the good movepools of Golem-A and Probopass, is a bit too much. It tilts the prediction game way in favor of the mag pull user and the Pokemon isn't deadweight when there are no trappable steels, unlike in say OU where Magnezone is kinda trash otherwise. The fact that there are a variety of Mag Pullers denies you the opportunity to slap a move on your mon besides like Tarrows (which isn't on a good defensive donor) and be able to punish their switchins. MagPullers I've seen/used/heard of include Thundurus, Infernape, Landorus-Therian, Blacephalon, [13:25:22] Halliday: Char-Y if you're being cheeky drampa afk, and Rotom-H. If you have other feel free to discuss them when talking about / refuting this post but imo at least those need to be considered.

I'm curious as to other people's opinions on this, because I haven't actually been running that many steels (Azzwola-Muk life) and a good amount of this is theorymon.

*please don't say don't switch it into Knock Off that's... also incredibly difficult not to do and puts you in a position to suddenly lose.
**I realized after typing this that choosing a fighting type wasn't the greatest example, but the specific sweeper isn't really that important to be honest. Something that Steels check that can run Knock Off.

BAN BLAC PRAISE BUGE
 
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I see. Forgot about Bibarel sets. Well, that settles it then.

After actually laddering for a while, I am pretty disappointed to see that people lack the initiative to try and experiment sets and just use whatever works. It's the reason most megas I see are Pinsirs and they get mad when their Pinsir gets walled by common Stall teams and accuse the meta of being Stally. I am going to share some sets which hopefully open people's minds that PURE Special/Physical is NOT always better than mixed sets.

Kecleon (Azelf) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

All the stall teams I see didn't adapt and falls to this set, and it only gets better because Innards Out got banned. This beats so much of metagame threats, especially mons with slower than 115 Speed.
I second this, this mon is painfully hard to switch into even on fat balance, especially if ur lazy and slap av a-muk as ur only check to most special attackers since it doesnt appreciate drain punch or knock off; people need to use mixed sets more its hard to switch into

'Fun'

Anyway I personally find in the current meta two things kinda overwhelming, especially at a teambuilding level, and possibly suspect worthy.

1) Blacephalon
I originally thought that the banning of Shell Smash would be enough to make Blac not op, but I honestly can't say that I've found this to be the case. Between Specskoal/Scarfkoal, Nidothings, and Kecleon sets (and some others but imo those are the ones that provide the most trouble) its basically impossible to find a switchin to Blac which isn't Flash Fire (or Drizzle ig), which is really limiting. This combined with its good speed tier and ability to effectively run multiple items makes it very difficult to play against. I have personally found that running multiple forms of priority / chipping blac with things that can take one hit to put it into range of revenge killing has been most reliable way of playing against it.

The fact that the movepools of Flash Fire Pokemon aren't that good only adds to the difficulty of checking Blac. Arcanine, the best Flash Fire donor I M O, and certainly the best defensive one, can't touch Blac with common sets outside of Iron Head, and I have yet to see one running Crunch. More offensive inheritors will probably have ~the same amount of luck as other revenge killers, with the exception of being undoubtedly superior against choiced variants.

In defense of Blac, it's frail as all hell and easy to revenge kill with priority from stuff like Lopunny, Ttar, Pinsir, or Aqua jet users. However it resists or is immune to quite a few common priority types, including Normal, Fighting, Ice, Fairy, and Steel.

I'm curious as to how others find Blac and how they have gone about checking it.

2) Magnet Pull
I should say this up front: I hate trapping abilities. Jsyk.

I'm a lot more conflicted about this than about Blac. I know that Shed Shell is an easy counter to Magnet Pull. However the fact that Magnet Pull is extremely common on the ladder has made it impractical to run anything other than Shed Shell on defensive steels (some exceptions apply, see Doublade). If you run say, lefties, you're leaving your team open to having that Pokemon removed and having something like Terrakion!Malamar or whatever you needed that steel to check sweep. Shed Shell is also not 100% reliable, because Knock Off exists. For example: your Celesteela checks their Terrakion!Malamar**. Cool. You switch it in because that's how you avoid getting swept*. They Knock Off as you switch in. You are now forced to either allow the Terrakion to chunk your team or risk losing your only check to it as they switch to their Magpuller, whatever it is. even if you have a pivot move (as commonly Steela do), if you're ever in at the same time as their Magpuller, your mon is dead, and you pretty much lose.

Sorry if that was a bit too hypothetical, but I feel that trapping important parts of defensive cores, combined with the good movepools of Golem-A and Probopass, is a bit too much. It tilts the prediction game way in favor of the mag pull user and the Pokemon isn't deadweight when there are no trappable steels, unlike in say OU where Magnezone is kinda trash otherwise. The fact that there are a variety of Mag Pullers denies you the opportunity to slap a move on your mon besides like Tarrows (which isn't on a good defensive donor) and be able to punish their switchins. MagPullers I've seen/used/heard of include Thundurus, Infernape, Landorus-Therian, Blacephalon, [13:25:22] Halliday: Char-Y if you're being cheeky drampa afk, and Rotom-H. If you have other feel free to discuss them when talking about / refuting this post but imo at least those need to be considered.

I'm curious as to other people's opinions on this, because I haven't actually been running that many steels (Azzwola-Muk life) and a good amount of this is theorymon.

*please don't say don't switch it into Knock Off that's... also incredibly difficult not to do and puts you in a position to suddenly lose.
**I realized after typing this that choosing a fighting type wasn't the greatest example, but the specific sweeper isn't really that important to be honest. Something that Steels check that can run Knock Off.

BAN BLAC PRAISE BUGE
This this this oh my god, magnet puller is just as un-competitive as arena trap, it doesnr matter if it only traps one type, the fact that it completely invalidates that very necessary type with little risk involved is NOT okay

Steels are a necessary part of every balance core and magnet pull just mindlessly breaks is really restricting for balance teams

Especially true for mons that are very hard to switch in like espeed m-pinsir but have few reliable switchins like unaware celesteela, what magnet pull does is just switch in mindlessly and removes your unaware celesteela to make way for pinsir/altaria/whatever to sweep (yes ik i can use cress or suicune but theyre both can be baited by toxic so im kinda meh on them)

Its different than OU like drampa said where we have only ass magnezone, here we have many really good users, and to make it worse ANY mon could be carrying magnet pull leaving it a guessing game. Ive lost so many games having my celesteela/stakataka baited in to get their shed shell knocked off and have them trapped and lose to their sweeper of choice

I dont have much else to add other than what drampa said already. Ban this stupid steel arena trap, ALL trapping is dumb in general and have no place in the game

Edit: on blace im on the fence tbh, while it has no switch ins it also has a pretty terrible type and is revenged/chipped fairly easily, i need to test more against it
 
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