Battle Spot Kanto Classic RMT(creative right?)

[Omastar68]

I've been playing Kanto Classic a lot-I haven't played much BSS since the comp was made playable on PS-and I've found a team that seems pretty good and is also interesting. My Elo is 1442-making me 54th-and my GXE is 66.8%. Not wildly impressive but pretty good. I've changed many things to get my team to where it is, and I'm wondering what other people think.

Gengar (F)
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 124 HP / 36 Def / 116 SpA / 20 SpD / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- shadowball
- sludgebomb
- substitute
- hypnosis

I've had Gengar on my team since pretty much my first battle in this meta, weird since I never use it in regular BSS but oh well. There are quite a few options for Gengar's moveset. I can't quite remember if it's exactly what I started with, but I remember running Shadow Ball/ Clear Smog/ Taunt/ WoW. Someone suggested Sludge Bomb and I though it was a good idea so I put it over Clear Smog. Recently I added Hypnosis(largely for Machamp and Venusaur, but also kinda for everything. Sleep is a very potent status and worth that accuracy IMO,) and went Modest because it still outspeeds max Spe base 90s with the EVs(I'd run even less speed if not for Venomoth,) and lets me run far fewer EVs in SpA so I can invest more in bulk. The defensive investment always lives Stone Edge followed by Bullet Punch from max Atk Machamp, and only has no chance to be OHKOd by max Atk Snorlax's Crunch. Substitute is mainly for Venu's Sleep Powder, and I can sometimes set it up on a sleeping for-depends how many hits it takes to KO it. The special bulk also makes it very unlikely Venu will break my sub, unless it's Modest.

Clefable (F)
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- moonblast
- swagger
- thunderwave
- wish

Clefable has bounced all over the place with moves. Early on I decided no Minimize cause Snorlax with Body Slam is everywhere, and soon after that decided no Stored Power since it's kinda situational. Clef used to have CM and Heal Bell, but I wanted Wish to support my team(open to people suggesting to go back to Moonlight,) so CM didn't make sense, and Chansey has an easier time switching in in general, so I made her my cleric. Swagger works nice with Unaware and T-Wave, and Clef is the most reliable T-Waver in this meta.
The Speed is to creep as much as possible without really hurting bulk. It's nice to surprise people with this Clef, parahax is brutal, and Swagger means the foe deals more damage to itself.

Articuno
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 80 SpD/ 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- sheercold
- sleeptalk
- rest
- roar

I added Atuno main because of how well it does against Machamp and Snorlax. The moves are about what you'd expect. EVs are focused on physical bulk, with 80 in SpD since I have an IV of 30 in that stat. 4 Spe creeps other uninvested base 85s. I've thought about investing all 84 EVs for uninvested base 95s, but that's really just Arcanine-and only some of them at that, plus Arc is rare-and I prefer the SpD to largely reduce the chance for 4 SpA Zapdos Discharge to 2HKO or OHKO after SR damage(I'm sure there's a more relevant threat it helps with, but that's what I've got right now.) Articuno has been really good for a lot of things. A big one is PP stalling, which you really need Pressure to do properly(I wanted to run Spite on something, but Gengar is too frail.) There are some mono attackers, and they'll very quickly run out of PP vs Articuno. A really strange example I saw in a battle was a Slowbro with Curse/ Amnesia/ Aqua Tail. I Sheer Colded it before I saw the last move, but I assume it was Slack Off, so I just had to drain Aqua Tail's PP. Speaking of Sheer Cold, it's really nice that Sleep Talk can draw it even when it's at 0 PP(what do people think of dropping Sleep Talk since I have a cleric?)

Chansey
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- aromatherapy
- stealthrock
- healingwish
- softboiled

Chansey I got rid of early on cause she just couldn't do damage and is so physically frail. I added her back somewhat recently and decided not to run Seismic Toss(an idea I got from Miss Kaneda's Chansey,) and used to have Toxic over Aromatherapy cuz Clef was my cleric. But I'd rarely get an opportunity to Toxic-plenty of stuff has Rest and many teams have clerics, and I have so many T-Wave users Toxic'd often conflict. That's why I dropped it. Healing Wish is pretty good for bringing something back from death's door, and is nice when Chansey is useless(which is a lot of the time.) My Chansey is a Taunt bait, but it's important to note that Chansey is Taunt bait no matter what she runs, thanks to her petite SpA stat, non existent Atk, and Seismic Toss being easy to heal off/switch into. And Gengar is a Taunt Poke that's immune to it anyways. I'm open to switching Chansey out, but it's noteworthy that I've benefited a lot from her support, and most SR setters can't be clerics too.

Starmie
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- psyshock
- recover
- thunderwave
- rapidspin

Speaking of Starmie, I got the idea for a defensive one from Vengeance417 RMT, though I've thought about it before. The main purpose is to Rapid Spin, and I put Starmie over Slowbro(which itself is a Pokemon I only somewhat recently started using over Alakazam, mainly for the dreaded Machamp, but also cause Zam is just too frail in general.) I've thought about using Reflect Type over T-Wave on Starmie mainly for Venusaur and some electric types. I've also considered running way less Spe(same as my Gengar,) but I think it's important to outspeed all Gengars, and making Starmie slower and Gengar max Spe instead is a bad idea. Starmie is actually quite bulky with investment, and lives a lot of hits. The bulk also surprises Pursuit Slax, which expects a frail Starmie switching out, not a bulky one staying in. The big problem with Starmie is fairly low damage(mayb way more bulk and less Spe and Analytic would be a good idea?,) and no way to hit Slowbro for any real damage with the moves it has-really only being able to T-Wave it for that chance to make Slowbro not move.

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 236 Atk / 220 Def / 44 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- rest
- crunch
- bodyslam
- fissure

Slax is all over he place in KC, and for good reason. If you forced me to choose between it and Clef, I'd pick Slax. The moves are pretty normal. I have the prerequisite Body Slam(Monimize isn't really a thing anymore for the most part, but a strong STAB with a para chance is really good,) Crunch for Gengar, Starmie,and Zam(I find it more reliable than Pursuit-though Pursuit is certainly a fine option-and the Def drop helps occasionally with bulky stuff immune to Fissure,) Fissure for everything, specifically Machamp switch ins, and Rest for recovery. Slax has great bulk and I have a cleric, so the sleep turns are rarely a big issue. The EVs are a slight adaptation on what someone suggested in the KC thread. They're still probably not perfect, but will always live Machamp's Dynamichpunch without SR damage, has a 37.5% chance to live +2 DNite's Outrage(again without rocks,) and maintains the same chance to 3HKO Clef as 252 Atk Slax, while also speed creeping enemy base 30s. Snorlax has been hugely helpful for a wide range of Pokemon, such as Gengar, Zam, Slowbro, Clef, enemy Slax that either get unlucky or lack Fissure, Seaking(I hate these. I mean I like the Pokemon...but I don't,) Jolteon(it 4HKOs,) Dugtrio, SpDNite(mainly when it gets parad,) Nidoking, Queen, sometimes Chansey, Starmie, and a few others. Really the best Poke in this meta-which is ironic considering how it fairs in regular Battle Spot.

These are my main concerns:

• Wish or Moonlight on Clef? If Moonlight, then CM>Swagger.

• Is Sludge Bomb the best thing for Gengar? I didn't mention it before, but I've thought about Focus Blast for the perfect coverage, mainly hitting Snorlax. Sludge Bomb really only gets Clef, and a slightly harder hit than Shadow Ball when both are neutral, and the poison chance rarely matters for me. Also think I can do without Substitute. Any ideas for what to run over it? I think it's between Clear Smog, Taunt, and Focus Blast. Gengar has a lot of other moves I'd like to use, but it's too frail to properly utilize any of them. A surprise Counter could be pretty good, especially since Gengar has a chance to live max Atk Snorlax's Crunch.

• Should I keep Articuno and Starmie? If so, would it make sense to change Sleep Talk to something else on Articuno since I have a cleric. And what about Reflect Type over T-Wave for Starmie?

• Is Chansey's moveset ok? I've had quite a bit of success with it. Also, should I get rid of Chansey for another SR setter? She does compound a fighting weakness.

• Should I change anything about Snorlax? Maybe a bulkier spread with Whirlwind?

Here are some replays. I've done many more battles, but I think these are the best so I saved them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-334586009

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-334588385

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-334594281

 

[Miss Kaneda]

I need to look into your team a little more deeply, but I'm really enjoying your Clefable set. It's effective and has the potential to make a mess out of other teams decently enough, though you do play a dangerous game with Swagger and physical attackers here and there. How much do you find you're using Wish? I didn't see you pass a Wish in any of the replays you shared, and while having the extra PP of Wish can be useful to a degree, I think you look to play a different sort of game with the swagplay technique, and having instant recovery seems to be more important. Have you tried Moonlight with Swagger to see how it goes?

Hypnosis's shaky accuracy is certainly a concern, too, but I haven't been able to tell how much of a concern that is for you. Is it generally the first thing you click when you have Gengar in? If so, how often do you lose Gengar when that happens? Being able to quickly sleep threats is awesome, but it shouldn't be overly crucial, since you can't really count on it. If you really like sending things to sleep, though, I've been wondering about trying to find a team for Venomoth, and maybe you have some way you could use one of those here.

Just some idle thoughts, I'll try to come up with more constructive ideas soon.

 

[Omastar68]

I need to look into your team a little more deeply, but I'm really enjoying your Clefable set. It's effective and has the potential to make a mess out of other teams decently enough, though you do play a dangerous game with Swagger and physical attackers here and there. How much do you find you're using Wish? I didn't see you pass a Wish in any of the replays you shared, and while having the extra PP of Wish can be useful to a degree, I think you look to play a different sort of game with the swagplay technique, and having instant recovery seems to be more important. Have you tried Moonlight with Swagger to see how it goes?

Hypnosis's shaky accuracy is certainly a concern, too, but I haven't been able to tell how much of a concern that is for you. Is it generally the first thing you click when you have Gengar in? If so, how often do you lose Gengar when that happens? Being able to quickly sleep threats is awesome, but it shouldn't be overly crucial, since you can't really count on it. If you really like sending things to sleep, though, I've been wondering about trying to find a team for Venomoth, and maybe you have some way you could use one of those here.

Just some idle thoughts, I'll try to come up with more constructive ideas soon.

I'm glad you like the Clef set, I actually do pass Wish quite a bit, though I guess I didn't use replays with it. It can be hard to pass it, but it has helped in the past and has twice the PP of Moonlight, though Moonlight still has a lot of use. Will have to test it on PS before committing to forgetting an EM.

Hypnosis is actually really good a lot of the times. I just grabbed the replays I have with this team and posted them, but I thought I had e one where Gengar 6-0d them(or just about,) with crazyish luck on Hypnosis. It actually hits more often than not, so I think it's a worthy risk. WoW still misses a bit even with this gen's accuracy buff, and is often useless, while putting a foe to sleep is almost never useless. I don't spam Hypnosis, I mainly use it on stuff like Venu, Nidoking, Lapras, and the like(stuff that isn't 2HKOd, or 2HKOd but can OHKO back or something.) I wouldn't say I count on it, but it has helped a lot. There are a couple reasons why I'm not using Venomoth. Sleep Powder is only 15 more accuracy than Hypnosis without Compoundeyes(Moth don't get it, though it's prevolution does,) and Venomoth is a good deal slower and has less SpA. It actually is a bit bulkier, but that is offset somewhat by lower SpA and Spe that prevent heavy bulk investment from being viable, and it misses a ground and Normal immunity(4x fighting resist is practically the same as an immunity even with Veno's bulk, except where Machamp is concerned cause confusion.) Another big thing is none of my Pokemon benefit hugely from being BPed a QD boost, which is one of Veno's niches.

I'll check to see if HP investment on Clef should be different if not running Wish. Probably not since the difference between Clef's HP and Def base stats isn't that huge, but maybe more Def and less HP would help.

EDIT: Switching the HP and Def on Clef hurts bulk on both sides a little, and the only benefit is a little less Leech Seed damage.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-335523870
Gengar at its finest.

 

[Vengeance417]

Your Snorlax is Serious natured. I'm sure that's a mistake.

Other than that, nice team you got there. My only concern is Chansey. I'm just not really feeling it being on teams that aren't full stall. In one of the replays, it just forfeited momentum vs DD Dragonite, especially due to the fact it didn't carry Thunder Wave to at least cripple it before it got too fast and powerful. I can see why it's on the team with the moves it has. Maybe I'm just underestimating it here, but Chansey has proven to be a HUGE momentum-sink on non-stall teams.

 

[Omastar68]

Your Snorlax is Serious natured. I'm sure that's a mistake.

Other than that, nice team you got there. My only concern is Chansey. I'm just not really feeling it being on teams that aren't full stall. In one of the replays, it just forfeited momentum vs DD Dragonite, especially due to the fact it didn't carry Thunder Wave to at least cripple it before it got too fast and powerful. I can see why it's on the team with the moves it has. Maybe I'm just underestimating it here, but Chansey has proven to be a HUGE momentum-sink on non-stall teams.

Lol, apparently I've been running a serious nature on PS. That must've happened when I was deleting the attack EVs to make them 236. Must've deleted the plus and not changed he nature back to Adamant.

Chansey is not a Pokemon I like either, so maybe I can find a better cleric and SR setter. I think I can afford to give up Healing Wish though, and something not trashed by Machamp that can't do any damage would be good.

EDIT: Seems I have a few ways to replace Chansey and keep her support. I'm leaning towards giving Clef SR and replacing Chansey with an Aromatherapy Vileplume, but I could also use a different cleric or make Clef my cleric and replace Chansey with a different SR setter. What do people think? I'm gonna try to find a set for Vileplume and put SR on Clef and Reflect Type on Starmie(cause Vile has Effect Apore,) and see how that goes.

 

[cant say]

Healing Wish is no where near as good here as it is in 3v3, so replace that for Seismic Toss so Chansey can actually do something.

Slow Articuno probably likes Freeze-Dry over Roar, it's what Demantoid has been running and it's gotten him to the top. You can also run 100 Spe to make sure you outspeed JollyChamp (yeah they exist), but that takes away a lot of bulk... Do not drop Sleep Talk though (not sure why you even suggested it).

Also that's MY Starmie set :( I recommended that Vengeance try it.

 

[Omastar68]

Healing Wish is no where near as good here as it is in 3v3, so replace that for Seismic Toss so Chansey can actually do something.

Slow Articuno probably likes Freeze-Dry over Roar, it's what Demantoid has been running and it's gotten him to the top. You can also run 100 Spe to make sure you outspeed JollyChamp (yeah they exist), but that takes away a lot of bulk... Do not drop Sleep Talk though (not sure why you even suggested it).

Also that's MY Starmie set :( I recommended that Vengeance try it.

Well, I'm just getting rid of Chansey as a whole. Seismic Toss really isn't much good. So many things have recovery, and they'll never be beaten by Seismic Toss.

I have no idea what you mean about slow Articuno preferring Freeze-Dry. Roar has negative priority, so why would it be better on a faster Articuno? I know the negative priority is ignored when it's pulled by Sleep Talk(which I shouldn't have mentioned getting rid of, just thought mayb since I have a cleric, but nope,) but that still doesn't really explain it.

I know, I said I got it from his RMT, not him. Mayb that wasn't clear enough, I'll cite my source better next time :P

Also, I'm kinda working on changing stuff atm(like always.) Chansey has got to go, and I decided to put Tentacruel over Starmie. No gray reason for it, and it gives me a psychic weakness, which is yucky. I've saddled Clef with the role of cleric and SR setter, and need a last Poke that is neutral or better vs psychic, and has an ok match up against Machamp and Jolteon(mainly.)

I'll edit my team whenive settled on something.

 

[cant say]

I have no idea what you mean about slow Articuno preferring Freeze-Dry. Roar has negative priority, so why would it be better on a faster Articuno? I know the negative priority is ignored when it's pulled by Sleep Talk(which I shouldn't have mentioned getting rid of, just thought mayb since I have a cleric, but nope,) but that still doesn't really explain it.

No, that's exactly what I mean. The faster Articuno is the faster it can use Sleep Talk and hopefully choose Roar. You know that if you use non-negative-priority Roar you get a free phase, right? Also, Freeze-Dry hits Golem who is immune to Sheer Cold.

I also noticed your team is pretty Magneton weak, outside haxing it with Clefable (who still fears Flash Cannon). RestTalk Magneton stall is becoming a thing on the ladder atm so you need something to kill it. Simply adding Earthquake to Snorlax would help (also good for Golems that wanna wall you) but he has better things he wants to run so it's hard to fit on a set.

Isn't this like your third Kanto Classic RMT? It seems you're actively using this forum for teambuilding help, rather than showing it off / general rating. That's not against the rules afaik but since you're constantly making changes (like wanting to change Chansey almost immediately after posting the team), maybe chill out on the thread posting and focus on refining your team first? Remember we have the teambuilding help thread in Battle Spot (which I noticed you posted this team there also..?)

 

[Omastar68]

No, that's exactly what I mean. The faster Articuno is the faster it can use Sleep Talk and hopefully choose Roar. You know that if you use non-negative-priority Roar you get a free phase, right? Also, Freeze-Dry hits Golem who is immune to Sheer Cold.

I also noticed your team is pretty Magneton weak, outside haxing it with Clefable (who still fears Flash Cannon). RestTalk Magneton stall is becoming a thing on the ladder atm so you need something to kill it. Simply adding Earthquake to Snorlax would help (also good for Golems that wanna wall you) but he has better things he wants to run so it's hard to fit on a set.

Isn't this like your third Kanto Classic RMT? It seems you're actively using this forum for teambuilding help, rather than showing it off / general rating. That's not against the rules afaik but since you're constantly making changes (like wanting to change Chansey almost immediately after posting the team), maybe chill out on the thread posting and focus on refining your team first? Remember we have the teambuilding help thread in Battle Spot (which I noticed you posted this team there also..?)

Well, maybe that makes sense on Articuno. If nothing else I really do like the move Freeze-Dry. And I have some problems with Golem too.

I don't really think about Magneton since I virtually never see it, but I am very weak to it. But these sorts of things are why I'm changing stuff around...again(sorry about that.)

It's a tricky thing, people always can find something wrong, and then I want to change something and it starts all over again. Not trying to abuse the forum, just don't want to refuse to make my team better simply cuz it kinda goes against the rules. But mayb I can leave this team as is and make a new RMT later.

Speaking of the teambuilding thread...well, everything in the Battle Spot Forum seems to see sporadic use(bar the KC one, and that's only temporary Ofc for the comp. Plus, it doesn't mean your comment will always get acknowledged.) Sometimes activity really picks up, but a lot of the time it'll dry up, unlike RMTs that always get some comments. That's not to say I'm now trying to use this forum for teambuilding help. I won't edit it again:)