★ Laser Shooting Dinosaur - Archaludon Suspect

[DripLegend]

Archaludon has been a hot topic of debate for a while now, garnering multiple On The Radar threads and sparking much discourse in the community. Those in favor of ban claim Archaludon's high amount of set variety allow it to overcome usual counters and flip matchups it would otherwise consistently lose. Toppled with the fact the item slot is fairly flexible, it has two great abilities in Stamina and Sturdy, the latter of which pairs excellently with its 85 base speed. On the other hand, those in favor of keeping the bridge around point out consistent variety of consistent counterplay such as Registeel and Serperior. As well as the fact Archaludon has a great amount of opportunity cost when switching between items, abilities, or moveslots, stretching thin its own winning matchups in order to compensate for others.

What do you think? Should it stay or be banned? Post thoughts you have about Archaludon in this thread, or in the metagame thread!
In order to become a qualified voter, ladder with the prefix 1arch and achieve suspect requirements listed below.
Click this link when you achieve requirements and DO NOT ladder until a moderator has verified your account.
The deadline is Thursday, May 2nd 11:59 PM -5.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	Minimum Games
73.5	50
73.8	49
74.1	48
74.4	47
74.7	46
75.0	45
75.3	44
75.6	43
75.9	42
76.2	41
76.5	40
76.8	39
77.1	38
77.4	37
77.7	36
78	35

tagging dhelmise to implement ladder tysm :)

 

[Itchy]

The voter identification thread is up! If you have reached the requirements, post here.

 

[LittEleven]

ladder stats from march across the ladder for arch
's place in the meta:
-> decent into vr, but is much better at beating random pokemon with its variety of sets and hence forces usage from more high vr mons
-> sturdy + mirror coat (and metal burst technically) + custap sets + choice sets make sequencing into it hard, it has decent speed and is physically bulky. special attackers like raging bolt and bloodmoon with priority might still have to break sturdy with a weak move first, otherwise they can get mirror coated, for example; which leaves them in bad positions vs a random archaludon. in addition, av arch has decent popularity which again makes playing into it harder.
-> stamina usage lets it beat "common" checks like iron hands, ursaluna etc which get dispatched by ID + Body Press
- > underground physical sets exist to cover some weirder mus and further strain builder, though they are a lot weaker to use in practice, just a mention
-> specially defensive mons that rely on bulking arch can also get beaten by repeated metal sounds; this restricts some checks because physical av mons can lose to ironpress, and special ones can lose to mirror coat shenanigans, making full blown counters to this pokemon harder to design
-> mostly reliable answers from the vr include Iron Crown, Hoopa-U, Waterpon; but the list of other Pokemon beaten by arch lets it comfortably flex onto many teams to get decent matchups across the board.
-> constricting in a sense that its sets cover a lot of the metagame between them, and the sets are viable because it retains core matchups whichever it chooses to run; but its beatable on preview a lot more than in the builder.

my opinion
atm i'm at "this mon is strong and centralizing to the point of being banworthy", and even if its not way above the power level like banned pokemon in the past, in practice this mon is both versatile and shows that versatility enough in the teams it can fit on. from a tour perspective, most of the time you have to hope the archa isn't some jank set that does well into your teams and you're relying more on scouting to check what archas are rather than assuming its power herb every game or custap every game and getting played by it. it's a pretty strong mon.

if someone wants to make swiss stats for archa w/ items and likely spreads feel free to

 

[DripLegend]

i debated making a vid but don't feel like it. thank gawd litten posted stats because aint no way i was gonna do it. I'll kinda post my general thoughts with bullet points:

1. Set Variety
If you've played a few games on ladder you are mostly gonna see Power Herb, and for good reason since that set is definitely what put Arch into the mainstream, beating things like prim and gouging pretty consistently. However, it has a great depth of versatility that even allows it to get away with running Stamina instead of Sturdy, which is practically unheard of in this tier since Sturdy is such a valued ability. Within these differing items, moveslots, and abilities arch is able to flip a great amount of checks on their heads.

2. idk a good header word for this part TBH
While centralization can be a good thing for tiers to stabilize around and in fact many 1v1 tiers find this happening often in tiers like ORAS, arch breaches a line in that "good" threshold of centralization. For instance, a lot of common checks to arch would include mons along the lines of: AV Urshifu, Serperior, fat grounds (ursas, landos, donphan). Now most mons in 1v1 are often pushed to their own limits in terms of being able to flex matchup spreads or be able to trade a few matchups in order to handle a "bigger" threat (i.e. bb zard in oras for tran). Arch takes this development and pushes the answers to it a lot more than they can handle. Now to note which sets of the checks can lose to:

checks

/other fighterz idpress with chople wins pretty consistently, stamina means that even if you dont click cc or fighting stab body press is getting stronger anyway.
serp is actually the most consistent answer (which is why i spam it a ton atm lmfao) 252+ Atk Archaludon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 195-229 (55.2 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, but scarf still can roll it. this isn't autowin for arch as it still needs to not get hit in confusion/not get double tected on however i don't feel like calcing the exact odds for either winning.
loses to idpress and can't outspeed min speed arch without being jolly, and even then, most arch are not going to be running minspeed that often.
it can come down to a lot of 50/50s vs mirror coat arch sets but av ursa has been getting a lot of usage since most people aren't running coat on arch super often.
/ Blanched i hate u :(, mcoat 50/50s pt.2 vs special variants of these two. arch could maybe run burst for these since both of these mons being slower than it while being simultaneously being able to out offense it doesn't seem that real, but this isn't a setbuilding post lmfao.

there could be more consistent answers i am missing here but i've picked some of the most viable/popular trends in current meta atm. i think the fact that arch can at least get some of these bad matchups down to just a 50/50 is pretty impressive in its own right.

3. It Is Still Good
there's not a fancy way of putting that arch still has a great amount of utility even when using one of these pretty specific sets to flip some key matchups. Stamina idpress allows it to flip a ton of the physical mons it can normally struggle with, especially fightings with low sweep/fake out like Sneasler, Iron Hands, Urshifu, and Okidogi. Scarf sets are still able to run boosting natures a lot of the time as well unless they value outspeeding mons like +1 regidrago (never getting clicked into bridge hardly ever) and pult (at a super low point in the meta rn), so damage is still great into the general meta climate. Band lets arch overcome a lot of random special tanks like Hoopa pretty easily, and Specs can put a huge dent in Pecharunt and Iron Crown.

None of my post is to say that arch is unbeatable or uncheckable in-game since that would be false, however i hope through reading this post it would be clear just how much sway it has in the current metagame, whether u think it is healthy or not. Building for every set can be a real nuisance, and while it definitely is not impossible if you build teams to be solid into EVERY arch set then it becomes a lot more stale/repeat of common mons and cores that will be able to handle it. I will be voting ban and I encourage the vocal majority of people wanting this mon gone to actually get reqs!!!

 

[Kaif]

Arch is honestly super overhyped lol it's way worse than people fearmonger it up to be. This is coming from someone who didn't use Arch for most of my 2nd place GC run and spammed Custap Arch for reqs, the only good sets are specs and custap and these other sets are not feasible on a good team without being incredibly obvious and the reality is that there's a ton of makeshift checks like Cres/Espath/Hands/Registeel/Lando/Serp/Urshifus/Ting/HoopaU/Metagross/Ursalunas etc that do the job when needed. It's not a foreign concept that a Pokemon can have different sets that beat its normal checks with massive opportunity cost.

Prob voting ban anyway tho because this meta has gotten boring for the majority of players including myself and its about time something happens to change it up.

Here's the team I used if u want reqs for free and ur not Litt

 

[RTM]

Arch is definitely a tour mon cause this thing is so ass in a ladder setting.

Its versatility comes with lots of set dependence and losing mu's that should be won.

I think peoples complaints are fearmongering based on arch in theory rather than practice / using it as a scapegoat for the meta being bad.

High usage just means somethings easy to use / build around, it doesn't mean its good (see gen 8 zone).

Arch is very easy to tech; av exists, 100%ing is hard but its main few sets are easy to tech together.

Haven't really seen a compelling argument to ban it yet.

I want to see it in a teamtour setting before pulling the trigger so for now i'm dnb, but may vote ban as to change the boring ass meta a bit.

 

[Felucia]

I'm gonna go out there and say it: it's incredibly difficult to construct an argument in 1v1 about whether something is "too" good, "too" diverse, "too" uncompetitive. I love that DripLegend brought up centralisation, his post goes into a lot of the basics of what I've been wanting to say about Arch, so much so that I didn't plan to make a post at all after reading his, but here I am anyway because I think something needs to be said about the SV meta as a whole.

As 1v1 progressed through generations a few things changed but one thing remained a constant: Dragon types reign supreme. Their good offensive typing and excellent defensive matchup into powerful grass/fire/water types make them an inherently powerful force. On top of this is the fact that dragon typing has a disproportionate amount of (pseudo)legendaries withy amazing base stats, and that one of its weaknesses (ice) is kinda one of the worst types in the game.

The prevalence of dragon types also gave rise to its main counter: Fairy types. Because fairy types not only hit dragons Super-effectively, but also are immune to their 120/130 base power STAB moves, they take a large role in countering dragons in 1v1. Steel types are a natural consequence, as they not only resist dragon type, but also are a natural answer to fairies. And just like that, the DFS archetype is born.

The prevalence of DFS does a lot to explain how 1v1 metas are formed. In SM for example, Mega Gyarados being a powerful water type that beats dragons and loses to fairies creates a meta where DFS isn't mandated. In SV, DFS shows itself in 2 top pokemon: Archaludon and Gouging Fire. Two dragons that (can) beat Steel and Fairy types.

Even without looking at matchups and actual strength, this really shows how Archaludon warps the metagame: It quite literally beats the dominant strategy while also fitting inside that strategy itself. This limits the use of DFS teams that don't use Archaludon, but unlike SM's Gyarados (which doesn't fit on DFS), Archaludon still propagates this dominant archetype.

My point: I may not be the best SV player, but rather than arguing whether 20% usage is overcentralising or not (more on this at the end), I wanted to outline what role Arch has in the meta and how removing it might impact diversity.

ramble

A thing that we need to acknowledge is that numbers often don't mean anything because different people attach different value to them. I'm not just talking about usage (Honestly I could see a meta where something has 50% usage and is perfectly healthy), but also things like checks/counters and set variety, you can write down a list of counters and matchups and all that, but that on its own does not explain why those numbers mean what you say they mean. I'm hoping to open the door to more thinking about what it is that makes pokemon with high set variety and few true counters such a problem, and look for how they're affecting what is/isn't playable in the meta. In the end, I hate the terms "broken" and "uncompetitive", it all just comes down to centralisation and how (much) something warps the meta

 

[recti]

First of all, as Felucia got in to a bit, it's not easy to be broken in 1v1 it's just how much said mon wraps the meta around it. Archaludon's a mennace on paper, Electro shot with Sturdy to beat Primarina Choice Scarf to own Haban Drago with scale shot and Draco Meteor Beam to beat Another Top mon, Gouging Fire. And Assault Vest Stamina to surprise mons like Choice Scarf Uproar Porygon-Z, teched to beat most of it's other sets including the common Power Herb. Custap Berry as a way to beat traditional counters like Fast band Lando-t and Lando-i.


It's access to Mirror Coat gives it access to surprise the Pz that i talked about earlier and Many more mons. It's accessability to Metal Burst gave birth to another new set Lagging Tail. While being completely ass on it's own it caught opponents like Raging Bolt and Donphan by surprise. Because players didn't want to lose to an ass Archaludon set they use another weaker move only to get destroyed by a completely different set as Kaif said. We should keep this in mind while talking about it, The set can not be all at once. Meaning it can only run one set out of the many options.


Serperior and Ogerpon-Wellspring were good counters for it with outspeeding it and Leech Stall. These sets even proved to have good match ups vs Specs and Scarf sets, given in the right hands. So yes, It has counterplay but it's limited.



Archaludon can tech to beat it's counters and mons can easily tech to beat Archaludon. While it is hard to cover 100% on teams, but since the oppurtunity cost is too high players will think twice before using crazy sets like Lagging Tail and Choice Specs.


tldr it's definitely not broken rn but I'll still be voting ban since like the others said this meta is boring and we need a change in the stagnant meta.

 

[Rentopio]

I think archaldon should not be banned because it is really eh meta but it is still good to sweep some teams but it has a weakness mega mewtwo x and primal Groudon

 

[Close]

I think archaldon should not be banned because it is really eh meta but it is still good to sweep some teams but it has a weakness mega mewtwo x and primal Groudon

GG, 1v1 solved

 

[g0ldenboy277]

Arch is definitely a tour mon cause this thing is so ass in a ladder setting.

Its versatility comes with lots of set dependence and losing mu's that should be won.

I think peoples complaints are fearmongering based on arch in theory rather than practice / using it as a scapegoat for the meta being bad.

High usage just means somethings easy to use / build around, it doesn't mean its good (see gen 8 zone).

Arch is very easy to tech; av exists, 100%ing is hard but its main few sets are easy to tech together.

Haven't really seen a compelling argument to ban it yet.

I want to see it in a teamtour setting before pulling the trigger so for now i'm dnb, but may vote ban as to change the boring ass meta a bit.

what? lol
with all the respect in the world to you, but this phrase "cause this thing is so ass in a ladder setting" is the most nonsense phrase that i ever saw here.
every high ladder got archa on the team, you can spam archa and got to 1550 or 1600 easily, almost only using it

 

[RTM]

what? lol
with all the respect in the world to you, but this phrase "cause this thing is so ass in a ladder setting" is the most nonsense phrase that i ever saw here.
every high ladder got archa on the team, you can spam archa and got to 1550 or 1600 easily, almost only using it

Its value is in its versatility, but on ladder you know their set due to playing them multiple times. In a vacuum where you know its set, it's not actually that strong; especially with it's alternate sets such as band, scarf and id press. "so ass" is hyperbole, it's obviously decent however it's far from the mon it is in tour and there are often better options on ladder.

 

[fake tom numbers]

Hello, I was going to make a bigger post but it seems like almost everyone agrees that arch is pretty mid. However there's still lots of bad opinions going around so I'll be talking about that.


"Let's ban arch to make the meta more interesting"

We know that arch does well into dragons, fairies and steels, and we also know that the meta currently is dragons, fairies and steels. So when we ban arch, guess what? There will be more dragons, fairies and steels! Good idea.


"Arch is too centralizing"

Brother if you are running 1 arch check/counter per team, that's not very centralizing at all lol. Like maybe if y'all start running 3 counters per team (which imo we should) then yeah, but I haven't seen a single team like that. For example you can watch gc finals and see how bad those teams are lol, at most you see is 2 arch checks.


"I can't find any mons that consistently beat arch"

Maybe instead of trying to find new fraud mons like iron hands or landos, maybe adapt old mons to beat new meta trends? Instead of running custap prim what about wacan? Or instead of using av meta all the time, maybe run scarf! (also please don't be like crucify and use trick vs arch, you lose to av and scarf. If you simply use eq you win vs all sets.) Also yes, there's tons of mons that consistently beat arch like av moltg, unaware encore custap skele, encore disable valiant, etc etc etc. It's literally not that hard to find stuff, stop being lazy.


"bbut if we ban arch then we'll be motivated to build and stuff!!1"

Despite this being one of the dumbest reasons to ban something, theoretically this is true to an extent. However, there's been a waaay bigger problem that's been here this entire time, and that's...

No way! Who could've seen this coming?

bern made a good post about it a while ago (although I think it can even beat some of those guys like av ursa) but apparently the argument against banning drago was "people will always run dragons fairies steels, so they beat it without trying" which like yeah, that's pretty obvious. But let's try and build a team without dragons, fairies and steels in a team then! ...oh i have to run aguav wo chien to fully counter it (loses to dd scale shot). If we ban regidrago then we won't be forced into using dragons, fairies or steels on every single team, making the meta more diverse. You can also ban dragon energy as that helps some stuff like ursa and cress to actually beat it consistently but yeah.

Anyways s/o lost heros for being the only person trying to beat arch rn, I will make a bigger post on regidrago + council soon.
tldr u are lazy+git gud

 

[bo_bobson27]

In light of the fact that people have started using sets other than power herb on Archaludon (Band, Scarf, AV, IronPress, Specs, Herb Press), real hard counters are increasingly hard to find.
Full list of Archaludon hard counters above C rank:

That's 13/53, or about 25% of mons above C rank. Whimsicott, Serperior, and Registeel are the only mons that do not need to run tech to consistently beat Archaludon. As you can see, there are 3 ways to beat arch, subseed, stall, or specific type advantage + techability. However, any single Archaludon set is not very strong. In fact, over 80% of mons can beat at least one of its sets. Building a team hard 3-0d by Archaludon is unlikely, and the odds your opponent has the correct set are also small. Nonetheless, Archaludon exerts an immense amount of preview pressure. As such, even if you do have a hard counter on your team, it is likely that your other two mons must setguess, making it a soft 3-0 or 2-1 into most teams. On top of this, stacking Archaludon counters is not feasible without turning the meta very stale. We have seen unmatched usage stats both on ladder and in tournaments showing Archaludon as the #1 mon by a mile, so I think it is pretty clear cut that Archaludon should be banned.

 

[fake tom numbers]

Quick post regarding stuff above:

First off, we have no idea why or why not some mons win or not, nice. Second, how do we deal with 50-50s or setguessing? I assumed that it doesn't count for this list, but some mons listed here have to 50-50 most of the time. Either way, some of these matchups are incorrect:
-pecha loses to metal sound. also thought that pecha has to 50-50 electro shot but w/e
-tusk? anways you have to run max speed av at which point u can lose to metal burst/custap
-lando loses to balloon haha
-did you know that ape was used 10 times in gc with a 40% win rate? sableye was used 11 times with a 69% win rate (d tier mon btw)
-did you also know that shifu rapid was used ONCE in gc? it was used by me btw, and apparently it has a 100% win rate even though here it lost. B+ tier mon btw
There's other stuff that's kinda weird (rilla???) so I'll give my own list:
yeah this obviously wins, u need focus blast for specs I think? either way mixed/cm should win
scarf eq moment
leech
wacan wooo, s/o happysh/fraun for making a better wacan set than me that actually beats band (i refuse to believe band is real)
probably shouldnt count due to it being very dependent on av arch evs, so if you disagree then thats fine
did not know encore disable can lose to stamina av until today, u can run fighting move if u really want but if u setguess correctly u win
if you think herb has protect for some unknown reason u can encore t1 and win, otherwise unaware gaming
scarf trick
you need to run a special move
leech
this wins! run aguav for scarf and you always win
av
dont use
sitrus endeavor wins
av fiery -> sucker wins, if ur scared of av a lot (although u should win) then u can run snarl
id
chople random move t1 -> ep -> vacuum wave is usually the play iirc, although im not 100% sure
babiri
i am assuming this wins
fake mon

Mons that lose to 1 set:

etc, probably missed some
That's all of the mons above B- tier tiers dont really matter when we got ape in b tier and there's other stuff that can win down there as well. Not to mention lots of mons that lose to 50-50s like hflame and other mons needing to setguess like spect to win.

Of course, maybe 20 counters to a mon is too little or something, but imo thats pretty big. If u wanna add to the list or think that fake tom numbers made a mistake then lmk

One more thing:

On top of this, stacking Archaludon counters is not feasible without turning the meta very stale.

It's kinda hard to define what makes a meta stale, but imo it's probably the same/similar mons over and over again. So if we look at the matchups you showed, isn't it the opposite? For being the dragon fairy steel meta it has 3 of those out of 13, which to me seems like it makes the meta more diverse. Not to mention that this assumption is mostly relying on speculation rather than what is actually happening right now. I'd rather see it become stale from spamming arch counters instead of lazily speculating.

post took way too long ok gn

 

[Heatranator]

av fiery -> sucker wins, if ur scared of av a lot (although u should win) then u can run snarl

Oh cool, hey what signature move does it have again? An electric type move? But it takes two turns to activate? There is an item that makes two turn moves act insantantly once? Shit.
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Moltres-Galar: 250-296 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Moltres-Galar: 115-136 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 25.9% chance to 3HKO

And no, av fiery into sucker does not win.
208+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 184-217 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Moltres-Galar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Archaludon: 52-63 (16.1 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Idk what kind of spread you are running on moltres galar, but it does not win the battle if they use an item which is at 24% usage.

Don't really care much about this discussion, but just needed to point out that this is not a counter.

 

[lost heros]

Oh cool, hey what signature move does it have again? An electric type move? But it takes two turns to activate? There is an item that makes two turn moves act insantantly once? Shit.
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Moltres-Galar: 250-296 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Moltres-Galar: 115-136 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 25.9% chance to 3HKO

And no, av fiery into sucker does not win.
208+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 184-217 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Moltres-Galar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Archaludon: 52-63 (16.1 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Idk what kind of spread you are running on moltres galar, but it does not win the battle if they use an item which is at 24% usage.

Don't really care much about this discussion, but just needed to point out that this is not a counter.

Berserk triggers after the electro on 1
+1 208+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 276-325 (85.9 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

[bo_bobson27]

Quick post regarding stuff above:

First off, we have no idea why or why not some mons win or not, nice. Second, how do we deal with 50-50s or setguessing? I assumed that it doesn't count for this list, but some mons listed here have to 50-50 most of the time. Either way, some of these matchups are incorrect:
-pecha loses to metal sound. also thought that pecha has to 50-50 electro shot but w/e
-tusk? anways you have to run max speed av at which point u can lose to metal burst/custap
-lando loses to balloon haha
-did you know that ape was used 10 times in gc with a 40% win rate? sableye was used 11 times with a 69% win rate (d tier mon btw)
-did you also know that shifu rapid was used ONCE in gc? it was used by me btw, and apparently it has a 100% win rate even though here it lost. B+ tier mon btw
There's other stuff that's kinda weird (rilla???) so I'll give my own list:
yeah this obviously wins, u need focus blast for specs I think? either way mixed/cm should win
scarf eq moment
leech
wacan wooo, s/o happysh/fraun for making a better wacan set than me that actually beats band (i refuse to believe band is real)
probably shouldnt count due to it being very dependent on av arch evs, so if you disagree then thats fine
did not know encore disable can lose to stamina av until today, u can run fighting move if u really want but if u setguess correctly u win
if you think herb has protect for some unknown reason u can encore t1 and win, otherwise unaware gaming
scarf trick
you need to run a special move
leech
this wins! run aguav for scarf and you always win
av
dont use
sitrus endeavor wins
av fiery -> sucker wins, if ur scared of av a lot (although u should win) then u can run snarl
id
chople random move t1 -> ep -> vacuum wave is usually the play iirc, although im not 100% sure
babiri
i am assuming this wins
fake mon

Mons that lose to 1 set:

etc, probably missed some
That's all of the mons above B- tier tiers dont really matter when we got ape in b tier and there's other stuff that can win down there as well. Not to mention lots of mons that lose to 50-50s like hflame and other mons needing to setguess like spect to win.

Of course, maybe 20 counters to a mon is too little or something, but imo thats pretty big. If u wanna add to the list or think that fake tom numbers made a mistake then lmk

One more thing:

It's kinda hard to define what makes a meta stale, but imo it's probably the same/similar mons over and over again. So if we look at the matchups you showed, isn't it the opposite? For being the dragon fairy steel meta it has 3 of those out of 13, which to me seems like it makes the meta more diverse. Not to mention that this assumption is mostly relying on speculation rather than what is actually happening right now. I'd rather see it become stale from spamming arch counters instead of lazily speculating.

post took way too long ok gn

uses clear amulet to not lose to metal sound, this is standard to also beat to icy encore prim, acid spray hoodra, and sylveon
does not need av, you can simply use knock off and tank an unboosted draco without much trouble
does not lose to balloon because you are faster and 2hko through the balloon. Going mixed is probably the best way to consistently win, which proves my point about Archaludon being banworthy.
loses to scarf eq
scarf eq loses to IronPress, Metal Burst AV, and Scarf. Its not even a 5050 with trick
wacan can lose to bulky Rock Tomb Herb, and has to 5050 against AV mirror coat. The set also doesnt have encore, and dies to bandot

Wacan

Primarina @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 24 Def / 16 SpA / 60 SpD / 164 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Hydro Cannon
- Icy Wind

has to bulk specs draco, and still loses to mirror coat. Maranga loses to band.
scarf loses to av and choiced sets, so you have to run amulet stall, which technically loses to SD (fake).
av loses to chople IronPress, so you have to run specially defensive with bulk up and low sweep
yea I forgot about that set. I'm pretty sure arch can tech it with IronPress + Rest, but w/e ground type wins yay!
loses to choice band, or bulky herb
has to bulk specs draco, but not clicking earth power t1 to play around mirror coat loses to specs/band, so you have to run custap to avoid the 5050 which loses to AV
has to run amulet for metal sound. with impulse you beat special sets, but lose to band
The list of counters does not have enough variety. Saying that its counters are not DFS types does not mean that Archaludon supports diversity in the meta. The fact is, we do see people using Archaludon a lot (17% on april ladder, 25% in gc, #1 by a large margin), and we do see people using subseed, stall, ground types, and fighting types a lot to beat it without setguessing.

 

[fake tom numbers]

Making another post on arch even though its banned yay!
Below is for bo biden

balls

uses clear amulet to not lose to metal sound, this is standard to also beat to icy encore prim, acid spray hoodra, and sylveon
does not need av, you can simply use knock off and tank an unboosted draco without much trouble
does not lose to balloon because you are faster and 2hko through the balloon. Going mixed is probably the best way to consistently win, which proves my point about Archaludon being banworthy.
loses to scarf eq
scarf eq loses to IronPress, Metal Burst AV, and Scarf. Its not even a 5050 with trick
wacan can lose to bulky Rock Tomb Herb, and has to 5050 against AV mirror coat. The set also doesnt have encore, and dies to bandot

Wacan

Primarina @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 244 HP / 24 Def / 16 SpA / 60 SpD / 164 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Hydro Cannon
- Icy Wind

has to bulk specs draco, and still loses to mirror coat. Maranga loses to band.
scarf loses to av and choiced sets, so you have to run amulet stall, which technically loses to SD (fake).
av loses to chople IronPress, so you have to run specially defensive with bulk up and low sweep
yea I forgot about that set. I'm pretty sure arch can tech it with IronPress + Rest, but w/e ground type wins yay!
loses to choice band, or bulky herb
has to bulk specs draco, but not clicking earth power t1 to play around mirror coat loses to specs/band, so you have to run custap to avoid the 5050 which loses to AV
has to run amulet for metal sound. with impulse you beat special sets, but lose to band
The list of counters does not have enough variety. Saying that its counters are not DFS types does not mean that Archaludon supports diversity in the meta. The fact is, we do see people using Archaludon a lot (17% on april ladder, 25% in gc, #1 by a large margin), and we do see people using subseed, stall, ground types, and fighting types a lot to beat it without setguessing.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pecharunt: 218-258 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yea I forgot about that set. I'm pretty sure arch can tech it with IronPress + Rest, but w/e ground type wins yay!
yeah mentioned that lando wins in my other post
speed booster, also 252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Crown: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO yeah
this is what I mean by literally not showing what arch sets youre running lol, anyways i was dumb and forgot u had to setguess idbpress with trick but you win vs av and scarf? 252+ Atk Archaludon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Metagross: 158-186 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO also I have never seen av metal burst, but meta eq usually does around ~60% so idk
av mirror coat??? anyways im not really sure how those sets win if u just cm, and idk what bandot even beats for you to even think of running it
if ur somehow paranoid about zero spdef arch then run hex t1 ig??? i usually run wisp so if people still run that then you gotta setguess
I run coverage on my scarf cress (shock) also depends on arch evs yippee
forgot chople existed mb
snarl
again, depends on evs for stuff like bpress damage
soak moment
"The list of counters does not have enough variety. Saying that its counters are not DFS types does not mean that Archaludon supports diversity in the meta."
Apparently using different pokemon that fulfill different roles and niches does not equal variety. Very cool
That makes 20 counters into 19! actually huge

Anyways wanted to see if arch really did run all of these sets by taking every replay of arch from swiss. Down below is all of them if u wanna test stuff yourself

m

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093143738-kdqsj6fhg396nw9tu5kz8vy87unko8bpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093143288-fi1ae7ohvd0l0qslio7ut2boe86mzeopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093141572-m0qm1n52o44pm0uyra9zs790x6uuv6fpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093139964-h2gvqexcsyr3f4okhm0aiu7n19horjbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092966714
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092965341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092576699-hjeo7pgzc1guw2lswxb5wayejw1fpispw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092359683-fno6kde237549hwpcohmxrvnsi6rckcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092252646
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092251199
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2089878132

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2098161893
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097496565
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097396341-9w8vrc3f1nnj6210plvx3ng8gvc80yypw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097356879
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2096681612
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2095924143
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2094767463
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2094766242
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2094317960-d1ka43nz8ew17pu3tz00424xrwpws8qpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2103316674-dsl7ltnv7nwcb8tyzjsu07jdu1xgi6lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2103264575-v6gz9irkhbokx7evyio9l6bpb791wchpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2102229686
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2102229223
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099724955-s1bkoikdtkyayusnodhkz4tpwu4gr5spw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099722041-xh09l42v4m1kbrvak6nwtjge13gxr7ipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099354583-z7vvz9qkw0kwmj7vzrqgiwgs9c8t3czpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099290050-c4x54pfzth4xw106qru9scm1t68xidhpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099289266-l8s85dltwhoig07acrwdy83okco517epw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2104338548
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2104339539
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2104340302
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105001988-5kk1ofvwm7pz8dwngsdwykucu186m1npw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105734936-l6itmbpaurqnegfoab3o86x4p8utxf5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105742038
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105841893-zbhq9484u7eagmlb03fgq8lku8ft87wpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105843285-8b8h5c55wzao3l7mhy48qa85eee7i9upw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105843871-bz0ap4rf80wiqwu1a6s2dsu9pp3utgjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2106503009
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107149472
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107143587
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107142316
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107139408
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107356218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107921972
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107922603
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108063267
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108066922
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107739787
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108420658
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108420658

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109137122
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109181364
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109464425
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109465183
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2110505614-aj53z0u2k2d2ogitv70lxwalk00twtwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2110803663
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112266419
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112281531
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112283412
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112285717
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112663625-yec6hh9l0lhiyhqkeitv8p4xz6c3312pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112905164
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2113239760-29tou27as2awvzx8uo4ysmvc7y55xokpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2113240409-vea33ln8voy7vu1mcoo1vuivw33615qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2113394843?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2114355725
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116318939
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116316863?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116600730-prkeglghbpq0rs4ggqvu8xg0kwuqvpepw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116604586-m61yxqpt30tv8jvl6uzekd62kxpz35rpw

So from this data:
- Arch has been used 78 times so far

- Arch has a 51% win rate. Most of these wins actually come from later rounds since the first 2 or so rounds had arch at a 38% win rate

- Power Herb was the most popular set, being activated 21 times. There's probably a lot more instances but it wasn't revealed those times

- Chople Berry did not activate a single time LOL. People either used air balloon or sitrus

- Sitrus was used once, and air balloon was used twice

- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097356879 salac twave metal burst yup

- Custap berry was activated ONCE

- Specs was used around 7 times

- Physical variants (excluding body press) were used 4 times

- Metal burst was used twice, and mirror coat was used 4 times

- Draco meteor was used around 40 times

tldr most stuff like band, scarf, specs and idbpress had use in the single digits aka u are bad if u think arch was good!!!1 (joke)

 

[bo_bobson27]

Making another post on arch even though its banned yay!
Below is for bo biden

balls

252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pecharunt: 218-258 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yea I forgot about that set. I'm pretty sure arch can tech it with IronPress + Rest, but w/e ground type wins yay!
yeah mentioned that lando wins in my other post
speed booster, also 252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Crown: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO yeah
this is what I mean by literally not showing what arch sets youre running lol, anyways i was dumb and forgot u had to setguess idbpress with trick but you win vs av and scarf? 252+ Atk Archaludon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Metagross: 158-186 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO also I have never seen av metal burst, but meta eq usually does around ~60% so idk
av mirror coat??? anyways im not really sure how those sets win if u just cm, and idk what bandot even beats for you to even think of running it
if ur somehow paranoid about zero spdef arch then run hex t1 ig??? i usually run wisp so if people still run that then you gotta setguess
I run coverage on my scarf cress (shock) also depends on arch evs yippee
forgot chople existed mb
snarl
again, depends on evs for stuff like bpress damage
soak moment
"The list of counters does not have enough variety. Saying that its counters are not DFS types does not mean that Archaludon supports diversity in the meta."
Apparently using different pokemon that fulfill different roles and niches does not equal variety. Very cool
That makes 20 counters into 19! actually huge

Anyways wanted to see if arch really did run all of these sets by taking every replay of arch from swiss. Down below is all of them if u wanna test stuff yourself

m

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093143738-kdqsj6fhg396nw9tu5kz8vy87unko8bpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093143288-fi1ae7ohvd0l0qslio7ut2boe86mzeopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093141572-m0qm1n52o44pm0uyra9zs790x6uuv6fpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2093139964-h2gvqexcsyr3f4okhm0aiu7n19horjbpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092966714
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092965341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092576699-hjeo7pgzc1guw2lswxb5wayejw1fpispw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092359683-fno6kde237549hwpcohmxrvnsi6rckcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092252646
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2092251199
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2089878132

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2098161893
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097496565
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097396341-9w8vrc3f1nnj6210plvx3ng8gvc80yypw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097356879
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2096681612
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2095924143
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2094767463
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2094766242
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2094317960-d1ka43nz8ew17pu3tz00424xrwpws8qpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2103316674-dsl7ltnv7nwcb8tyzjsu07jdu1xgi6lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2103264575-v6gz9irkhbokx7evyio9l6bpb791wchpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2102229686
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2102229223
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099724955-s1bkoikdtkyayusnodhkz4tpwu4gr5spw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099722041-xh09l42v4m1kbrvak6nwtjge13gxr7ipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099354583-z7vvz9qkw0kwmj7vzrqgiwgs9c8t3czpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099290050-c4x54pfzth4xw106qru9scm1t68xidhpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2099289266-l8s85dltwhoig07acrwdy83okco517epw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2104338548
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2104339539
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2104340302
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105001988-5kk1ofvwm7pz8dwngsdwykucu186m1npw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105734936-l6itmbpaurqnegfoab3o86x4p8utxf5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105742038
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105841893-zbhq9484u7eagmlb03fgq8lku8ft87wpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105843285-8b8h5c55wzao3l7mhy48qa85eee7i9upw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2105843871-bz0ap4rf80wiqwu1a6s2dsu9pp3utgjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2106503009
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107149472
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107143587
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107142316
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107139408
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107356218
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107921972
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107922603
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108063267
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108066922
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2107739787
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108420658
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2108420658

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109137122
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109181364
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109464425
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2109465183
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2110505614-aj53z0u2k2d2ogitv70lxwalk00twtwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2110803663
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112266419
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112281531
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112283412
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112285717
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112663625-yec6hh9l0lhiyhqkeitv8p4xz6c3312pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2112905164
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2113239760-29tou27as2awvzx8uo4ysmvc7y55xokpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2113240409-vea33ln8voy7vu1mcoo1vuivw33615qpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2113394843?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2114355725
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116318939
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116316863?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116600730-prkeglghbpq0rs4ggqvu8xg0kwuqvpepw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2116604586-m61yxqpt30tv8jvl6uzekd62kxpz35rpw

So from this data:
- Arch has been used 78 times so far

- Arch has a 51% win rate. Most of these wins actually come from later rounds since the first 2 or so rounds had arch at a 38% win rate

- Power Herb was the most popular set, being activated 21 times. There's probably a lot more instances but it wasn't revealed those times

- Chople Berry did not activate a single time LOL. People either used air balloon or sitrus

- Sitrus was used once, and air balloon was used twice

- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2097356879 salac twave metal burst yup

- Custap berry was activated ONCE

- Specs was used around 7 times

- Physical variants (excluding body press) were used 4 times

- Metal burst was used twice, and mirror coat was used 4 times

- Draco meteor was used around 40 times

tldr most stuff like band, scarf, specs and idbpress had use in the single digits aka u are bad if u think arch was good!!!1 (joke)

-1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Dark Pulse vs. 40 HP / 236 SpD Pecharunt: 162-192 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Archaludon Dark Pulse vs. 40 HP / 236 SpD Pecharunt: 122-144 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
6.640625% chance to KO
parting shot
I did not realize you were running bulky, low speed trick rest metagross. If that was the case, I could have just said that your set does not 2hko bulky Arch sets
if you cm t1 you lose to band, if you icy t1 and cm t2 you allow them to get extra chip with rock tomb on t2 so that eshot -> tomb -> flash cannon kos. AV can 4hko with flash cannon/+1 body press, and if you moonblast on a mirror coat you lose. Getting enough calm minds to ohko is not possible, so you have to predict the right turn to moonblast.
I don't know what set you are referring to here, but if it is wisp hex, Im assuming its not custap. If it is unaware custap wisp hex bburn, it loses to av. If it is tsong wisp bburn, it loses to either Specs or AV. If it isn't custap, it loses to one of specs or band. Actually, I think every set loses to one of Meteor Beam, AV, Specs, or Band. Mirror Coat with 0 spd is not uncommon on the sturdy mon, so most of the time it is a 5050 at best.
idk what coverage you have on cress that would do significant damage to arch. The best move is Moonblast, which is non-stab neutral.
0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Archaludon: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO
Im assuming you mean fast av snarl. This still loses to AV because you activate stamina a bunch of times, and body press easily out-damages. Band rock tomb also 2hkos, and you dont get a berserk fiery wrath.
yea, the ground type does not have a clean matchup somehow.
Archaludon learns Earthquake.
Archaludon mandates certain types of mons on every team: stall, subseed, grounds, fightings, as I have said previously. Even within those categories, only some of them actually work as counters. These do not fill a variety of different niches; they are all similar and result in repeated team structures.
I have Herb ~25 times, specs used 10 times, scarf used 5 times, IronPress used 4 times (I used chople), band used 3 times, and av used 3 times, other sets were either not revealed, or not used more than once. Obviously Herb is the most common, as it has the most techable mus while keeping core mus. Even so, Herb is only about 55% of all Arch sets by usage, so the other sets are still important to prep for. Luckily, we don't have to prep for any Archaludon sets anymore.