Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings

Drapion: Poison C Tier

I am still a little newer to Monotype than maybe some other players but I think we should slot Drapion into C tier for Poison. It is a viable holder of Darkinium Z with Nightslash to get decent dark stab, along with Taunt to stop setup sweepers, something that poison has a little bit of difficulty with in general from personal experience. Roar is another highly useful ability for Poison teams due to forcing a switch onto a double layered toxic spikes, and to mess with enemy setup more. Final move slot is basically whatever but poison jab is always a useful STAB.

My reasoning for C tier is quite simple, as a Poison/Dark type it is hugely outperformed by Muk in basically all situations and would never be a viable replacement for that Mon. As a setup breaker it is also generally outperformed by Toxapex with Haze, who can usually tank a hit, haze the opponent, and switch out to regen. Saying all of this though, Drapion is in a unique location of bringing both anti setup, and switch control with roar, and a good typing. Something that you can't really get in a single slot pokemon. Is the use cases for this pokemon niche? Yes most certainly. Does it have a viable place in the meta? Also yes.
The problem with Drapion is literally just putting it on a Poison team. Using it as a Taunt user could firstly be redundant because the faster Crobat sometimes runs it and it has ground immunity. Running Taunt Drapion as a worse mean of stopping setup sweepers instead of Haze Pex is also rough. The most common things Poison wants to haze are Setup Kommo-o and Jirachi. Hence I would see little reason for me not to run Toxapex alongside Drapion. As an offensive Psychic check it lacks either bulk or better speed/attack but most certainly it lacks any form of reliable recovery. This means you would also most likely still run Muk-Alola next to it.

Effectively your team right now is:

Drapion, Muk-Alola, Toxapex, Mega-Venusaur, Crobat and Nidoking/Nihilego (rock setter).

Seeing this, it seems pointless to put Drapion on the team to begin with since the team already covers everything and you're forgoing better offensive options in Nihilego, Salazzle, Scolipede, ...

So the only option to use Drapion would be finding a team that doesn't care as much about healing, phazing and psy counters in general. While I don't want to discourage you and rather want to encourage you to find such builds, sadly I think they're non existing. And even if some extreme offensive variants were to be useful, I can not see them ever being even close to viability as the balanced version, let alone see them using a Drapion.

That said, the way you analysed it is a good thing to keep with you while you get more used to Monotype. So certainly don't be discouraged.
 
Okay so basically the only thing I saw useful on this pokemon was roar, and with not a ton of bulk and no reliable recovery he cant even tank hits to spam roar. Tspikes is done better by Pex and psy immunity is done better by Muk-Alola. With that being said I dont see the benefit of using this over one of the more standard 7 or 8 poison type pokemon. Due to the defensive core of Toxapex Venusaur-mega Muk and Crobat being so strong and having just the right type resists and immunities, those 4 are usually always going to be on the team.
So now with our last 2 slots we're looking at a team with a good defensive core no wallbreakers, no stealth rocks, and no scarf, This is why the most likely 2 candidates here are Scarf nihihelgo with Wallbreaker LO sheerforce nidoking with rocks. Now there is other builds maybe scarf gengar or using scolipede as the speed control. or putting rocks on nihi and adding in a salazzle.
There are other niche options but They usually have a specific role that's needed due to dropping another mon on the team. but for the most part those are the stronger and more standard pokemon poison uses
but all things considered I dont see how drapion slots into the team without cutting like muk? and imo this is a huge downgrade as muk outclasses drapion in most cases. recovery with the recycle set also the bulk the mon carries is crucial for poison. If you had more reasons drapion was viable I'd like to hear them because as it stands I dont see how it would ever be slotted into a poison team and what matchups it might be helping in this scenario

Thanks for the feedback, after running some calculations if you do my recommended Drapion Darkinium Z build, it ends up being a much better counter to the likes of Excadrill (Sword dance variant) and other hard ground checks. Now you are correct Toxapex can also beat those, but a Toxapex is at best a 3HKO, the Excadrill is a 2HKO with earthquake against the Toxapex, factoring in black sludge:
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 150-176 (41.5 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Alolan Muk has much the same issue using the assault vest variant:
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 422-498 (102.1 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 158-186 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Excadrill also outspeeds both of these pokemon quite handsomely.

Comparing that to Drapion, with Darkinium Z and a decent set specific to counter something like Exacdrill:
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Drapion: 294-348 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Drapion Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 180-212 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

The drapion also outspeeds it by 1 meaning you almost garuntee the kill.

Now you will probably follow up by saying "Well venasaur is the go to counter for Excadrill." To which I will say you are 100% correct and Venasaur is a fantastic Excadrill counter, but against a ground team, I am fairly confident when I say they will have an answer to Mega Venasaur, as that is their biggest check on poison. Though I will be honest that is purely theory crafting.

What about Crobat? It is immune to ground meaning Excadrill can't hurt it with ground:
252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Crobat: 150-177 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 89-105 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

So Crobat does work reasonably well, though it isn't great as your crobat requires full health and if they predict the switch it can't kill the Excadrill.
 
The problem with Drapion is literally just putting it on a Poison team. Using it as a Taunt user could firstly be redundant because the faster Crobat sometimes runs it and it has ground immunity. Running Taunt Drapion as a worse mean of stopping setup sweepers instead of Haze Pex is also rough. The most common things Poison wants to haze are Setup Kommo-o and Jirachi. Hence I would see little reason for me not to run Toxapex alongside Drapion. As an offensive Psychic check it lacks either bulk or better speed/attack but most certainly it lacks any form of reliable recovery. This means you would also most likely still run Muk-Alola next to it.

Effectively your team right now is:

Drapion, Muk-Alola, Toxapex, Mega-Venusaur, Crobat and Nidoking/Nihilego (rock setter).

Seeing this, it seems pointless to put Drapion on the team to begin with since the team already covers everything and you're forgoing better offensive options in Nihilego, Salazzle, Scolipede, ...

So the only option to use Drapion would be finding a team that doesn't care as much about healing, phazing and psy counters in general. While I don't want to discourage you and rather want to encourage you to find such builds, sadly I think they're non existing. And even if some extreme offensive variants were to be useful, I can not see them ever being even close to viability as the balanced version, let alone see them using a Drapion.

That said, the way you analysed it is a good thing to keep with you while you get more used to Monotype. So certainly don't be discouraged.
Thanks for the feedback! I gave a more indepth analysis of one of the better matchups in my post above. Would love for you to take a look and see what you think!
 
Thanks for the feedback, after running some calculations if you do my recommended Drapion Darkinium Z build, it ends up being a much better counter to the likes of Excadrill (Sword dance variant) and other hard ground checks. Now you are correct Toxapex can also beat those, but a Toxapex is at best a 3HKO, the Excadrill is a 2HKO with earthquake against the Toxapex, factoring in black sludge:
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 150-176 (41.5 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Alolan Muk has much the same issue using the assault vest variant:
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 422-498 (102.1 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 158-186 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Excadrill also outspeeds both of these pokemon quite handsomely.

Comparing that to Drapion, with Darkinium Z and a decent set specific to counter something like Exacdrill:
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Drapion: 294-348 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Drapion Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 180-212 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

The drapion also outspeeds it by 1 meaning you almost garuntee the kill.

Now you will probably follow up by saying "Well venasaur is the go to counter for Excadrill." To which I will say you are 100% correct and Venasaur is a fantastic Excadrill counter, but against a ground team, I am fairly confident when I say they will have an answer to Mega Venasaur, as that is their biggest check on poison. Though I will be honest that is purely theory crafting.

What about Crobat? It is immune to ground meaning Excadrill can't hurt it with ground:
252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Crobat: 150-177 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 89-105 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

So Crobat does work reasonably well, though it isn't great as your crobat requires full health and if they predict the switch it can't kill the Excadrill.
Okay so about excadrill, drapion only wins if
1. there's no sand,
2. they're jolly
3. they arent scarf.
that's some conditions there my friend.
let's be honest poison doesnt have a very good check to excadrill, and drapion is for sure worse than crobat or venusaur at doing so. assuming we're talking about on ground then it's either sand or scarf and he's going to outspeed and ohko or 2ko depending on band, ada,etc.
I do like you getting involved for sure and your analysis of sets and calcs is fine, but in this situation drapion only beats excadrill if it's already in or after you sack a pokemon, if the excadrill isnt adamant, banded, OR in sand/scarf. at least 1 of those is usually going to be happening. and if not it's going to be the defensive excadrill set on steel that doesnt get 2hkod by aqua tail anyways.so while I like that you tried to give a niche to drapion it really doesnt handle excadrill at all and we're forced to rely on crobat/venusaur to take the blows. Even if you somehow manage to kill excadrill with drapion that mu is still far from over with the rest of the ground team being threats. and you'll probably have had to sack a mon or 2 already assuming the ground player is competent.
Lastlymuk doesnt normally run assault vest anymore as I think the recycle set is infinitely more popular nowadays.
 
Okay so about excadrill, drapion only wins if
1. there's no sand,
2. they're jolly
3. they arent scarf.
that's some conditions there my friend.
let's be honest poison doesnt have a very good check to excadrill, and drapion is for sure worse than crobat or venusaur at doing so. assuming we're talking about on ground then it's either sand or scarf and he's going to outspeed and ohko or 2ko depending on band, ada,etc.
I do like you getting involved for sure and your analysis of sets and calcs is fine, but in this situation drapion only beats excadrill if it's already in or after you sack a pokemon, if the excadrill isnt adamant, banded, OR in sand/scarf. at least 1 of those is usually going to be happening. and if not it's going to be the defensive excadrill set on steel that doesnt get 2hkod by aqua tail anyways.so while I like that you tried to give a niche to drapion it really doesnt handle excadrill at all and we're forced to rely on crobat/venusaur to take the blows. Even if you somehow manage to kill excadrill with drapion that mu is still far from over with the rest of the ground team being threats. and you'll probably have had to sack a mon or 2 already assuming the ground player is competent.
Lastlymuk doesnt normally run assault vest anymore as I think the recycle set is infinitely more popular nowadays.
Alright that's fair. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss and explain it with and to me. I'll take some time to just get more experienced in the meta game and see if I can come up with a more put together argument for Drapion, who knows, maybe I'll find a spot for him somewhere :D
 
Alright that's fair. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss and explain it with and to me. I'll take some time to just get more experienced in the meta game and see if I can come up with a more put together argument for Drapion, who knows, maybe I'll find a spot for him somewhere :D
This is what Monotype is about though! And don't feel discouraged from using unranked Pokémons. Perhaps you might try Drapion on Dark. It's the only thing besides Gren that can drop Toxic Spikes and is ok in Fairy Matchup on offensive teams.
 
Tapu Fini (Water): D -> B Rank


I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed. Tapu Fini may have been at the bottom of the rankings during the early SM meta but that is definitely not the case anymore. Tapu Fini combines multiple roles on water teams with its Fairy typing, access to Defog, and an abundance of utility moves. For example it can stall break with its Misty Terrain combined with moves such as Taunt, Knock Off, or Nature's Madness. Tapu Fini can also shut down set up sweepers with Haze. The ability to neutralize major threats to water teams such as Kommo-o, checking Breloom, and knocking off Alolan Muk's berry is also worth mentioning. Because of this, Tapu Fini can be gamechanging in matchups such as Dragon, Dark, and Fighting. Misty Surge has some disadvantages such as the fact that it has bad synergy with any team using Toxic Spikes and Scald but the terrain is generally more easily used to your own advantage than your opponents'. Over all, I want to point out that Tapu Fini is one of the best utility options available to water teams and D rank is unquestionably too low for the Pokemon.

Here are some of the best sets I've seen used:

Tapu Fini @ Icium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Haze
- Moonblast
- Knock Off
- Taunt

Icium Z allows Tapu Fini to completely recover after resetting a set up sweepers attacks (includes threats like Thundurus-T, Hawlucha, Azumarill, Victini and Jirachi)
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Fini: 254-300 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 252-297 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Fini: 195-229 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Jirachi Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Fini: 194-230 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 265-312 (77 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It's also simpley useful for longevity after taking lesser hits like Seismic Toss from Chansey or Brave Bird from Staraptor on normal teams and Poison Jab from Alolan Muk on dark teams.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Calm Nature
- Taunt
- Defog
- Moonblast
- Knock Off

This set is similar to the one above but it relies more on leftovers and bulk for longevity. Tapu Fini utilizing this set is also arguably the best Defog user available to water teams as it cannot be hit by Toxic or status and can use Taunt on opposing hazard setters. More importantly, it's better than other Pokemon like Empoleon because it actually counters offensive threats like Kommo-o and Breloom. Pelipper and Rotom-Wash are poor Defog users.
I've seen people point out that Defog isn't necessary on water teams due to the type's ability to stack its own hazards but nearly every good water type takes at least 13% from Stealth Rock and at least one flying type such as Pelipper and Gyarados are almost always required.
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 144-171 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 204-240 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 254-300 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(It can come in with Misty Terrain as a pivot)

252 SpA Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 105-124 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 67-80 (19.4 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Taunt

This set relies on the terrain to set up Calm Minds and Taunt is great for opposing teams with Pokemon like Toxapex, Celesteela, Mantine, Cradily, or Gastrodon. It's a decent late game win condition against fatter teams.

Scarf Tapu Fini with Trick is also a notable set but probably not as useful as bulkier utility options.
 
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Tapu Fini (Water): D -> B Rank


I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed. Tapu Fini may have been at the bottom of the rankings during the early SM meta but that is definitely not the case anymore. Tapu Fini combines multiple roles on water teams with its Fairy typing, access to Defog, and an abundance of utility moves. For example it can stall break with its Misty Terrain combined with moves such as Taunt, Knock Off, or Nature's Madness. Tapu Fini can also shut down set up sweepers with Haze. The ability to neutralize major threats to water teams such as Kommo-o, checking Breloom, and knocking off Alolan Muk's berry is also worth mentioning. Because of this, Tapu Fini can be gamechanging in matchups such as Dragon, Dark, and Fighting. Misty Surge has some disadvantages such as the fact that it has bad synergy with any team using Toxic Spikes and Scald but the terrain is generally more easily used to your own advantage than your opponents'. Over all, I want to point out that Tapu Fini is one of the best utility options available to water teams and D rank is unquestionably too low for the Pokemon.

Here are some of the best sets I've seen used:

Tapu Fini @ Icium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Haze
- Moonblast
- Knock Off
- Taunt

Icium Z allows Tapu Fini to completely recover after resetting a set up sweepers attacks (includes threats like Thundurus-T, Hawlucha, Azumarill, Victini and Jirachi)
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Fini: 254-300 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 252-297 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Fini: 195-229 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Jirachi Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Fini: 194-230 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 265-312 (77 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It's also simpley useful for longevity after taking lesser hits like Seismic Toss from Chansey or Brave Bird from Staraptor on normal teams and Poison Jab from Alolan Muk on dark teams.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Calm Nature
- Taunt
- Defog
- Moonblast
- Knock Off

This set is similar to the one above but it relies more on leftovers and bulk for longevity. Tapu Fini utilizing this set is also arguably the best Defog user available to water teams as it cannot be hit by Toxic or status and can use Taunt on opposing hazard setters. More importantly, it's better than other Pokemon like Empoleon because it actually counters offensive threats like Kommo-o and Breloom. Pelipper and Rotom-Wash are poor Defog users.
I've seen people point out that Defog isn't necessary on water teams due to the type's ability to stack its own hazards but nearly every good water type takes at least 13% from Stealth Rock and at least one flying type such as Pelipper and Gyarados are almost always required.
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 144-171 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 204-240 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 254-300 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(It can come in with Misty Terrain as a pivot)

252 SpA Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 105-124 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 28+ SpD Tapu Fini: 67-80 (19.4 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Taunt

This set relies on the terrain to set up Calm Minds and Taunt is great for opposing teams with Pokemon like Toxapex, Celesteela, Mantine, Cradily, or Gastrodon. It's a decent late game win condition against fatter teams.

Scarf Tapu Fini with Trick is also a notable set but probably not as useful as bulkier utility options.
Hey! This is actually a really nice nom, thanks for sharing! You make some good points for why Tapu Fini is viable. I agree that it's viable, since that's exactly why Tapu Fini is ranked. However, actually looking at the VR as what it is, a comparative ranking, Tapu Fini has no place above D right now.

D rank on Water is pretty damn good if you look at what's actually in D. Don't worry about what's in D for the other types. The only thing we care about is the comparative power within the same type. Alomomola for traditional stall Water, which is still a pretty decent archetype. Jellicent is a superior stallbreaker to Tapu Fini because it actually has recovery. Milotic is a tech option that opens up Greninja for way more interesting sets. Seismitoad can actually be used along side with or even replace Mega Swampert on a lot of rain builds. Tapu Fini absolutely fits in this rank below what's in C. C rank is full of stall Water options, alternative rain tech, and a couple Mega Evolution techs.

The problem with Tapu Fini is that you really just can't fit it on most Water teams. You are never replacing Greninja and Toxapex with it. You are also never replacing your Electric immunity or your Ground immunity. That's 4 teamslots that are always going to be unavailable. Of the last two slots, Keldeo almost always takes one. For the last slot, you're looking at your flex slot, but is Tapu Fini ever the best option here? Look at what's actually in B when you nominate it for that rank. Comparing Tapu Fini to the likes of Pelipper, Suicune, Mega Sharpedo, and Gyarados is just impossible given how many matchups those options can enable your team to cover.

Worth pointing out that Tapu Fini actually manages to be what is arguably the worst viable Defogger on Water. Every other viable Defogger is immune to Toxic Spikes, which means you aren't automatically losing to Toxic Spikes. That's absolutely huge and makes it impossible for Tapu Fini to be anywhere near the top by default. Going further, thouguh, Rotom-W, the only other Defogger that doesn't take neutral damage from Ferrothorn's Power Whip, has Will-O-Wisp to cripple it. Pelipper is literally the best rain setter and is more than happy to take the Defog role for rain teams, so you are literally never using Defog Tapu Fini on a rain team. Furthermore, most Defoggers are immune to Spikes, something Tapu Fini is especially vulnerable to due to its complete lack of recovery.

This very lack of recovery is why almost every calc isn't particularly meaningful because Tapu Fini lacks longevity. On a type like Water, longevity is far more important. Hope that explains why Tapu Fini isn't moving up!
 
Hey! This is actually a really nice nom, thanks for sharing! You make some good points for why Tapu Fini is viable. I agree that it's viable, since that's exactly why Tapu Fini is ranked. However, actually looking at the VR as what it is, a comparative ranking, Tapu Fini has no place above D right now.
Thanks for the response. There are still some things I want to point out though:

D rank on Water is pretty damn good if you look at what's actually in D. Don't worry about what's in D for the other types. The only thing we care about is the comparative power within the same type. Alomomola for traditional stall Water, which is still a pretty decent archetype. Jellicent is a superior stallbreaker to Tapu Fini because it actually has recovery. Milotic is a tech option that opens up Greninja for way more interesting sets. Seismitoad can actually be used along side with or even replace Mega Swampert on a lot of rain builds. Tapu Fini absolutely fits in this rank below what's in C. C rank is full of stall Water options, alternative rain tech, and a couple Mega Evolution techs.
I understand that we're comparing the Pokemon within the type to each other. That's exactly why I think Tapu Fini should move up from D rank.

1. Jellicent is not even a better stall breaker than Tapu Fini because it can never switch into stalling Pokemon (Chansey, Porygon2, Celesteela, Toxapex, Garchomp, Jirachi, Mew, etc), in fear of getting hit by a status move. In fact, it's a Pokemon that just saps momentum from teams because it has no other purpose (unable to check Pokemon like Kommo-o or threaten entire teams from switching out like vs Dragon, Dark, and Fighting along with the lack of access to Knock Off, Defog, Haze, or any actual utility).
2. Milotic is nearly unviable as far as I know. What are the tech options used by it? I don't see Milotic having a place on any good water team, especially compared to Tapu Fini.
3. Seismitoad has a fair argument but it's obviously inferior to Swampert and Mega Swampert. Any rain team that gives up Mega Swampert for another mega is probably better off not focusing on utilizing rain. Standard water teams can just use regular Swampert as their Electric immunity and Stealth Rock user.
4. Alomomola only has a role on stall teams, which is not as good of an archetype as standard balanced or offensive water which Tapu Fini can fit on. Its ability to pass wishes to teammates is not enough to make it viable on any other build because it's inferior to Pokemon like Toxapex as a wall and it has no advantageous typing.

All of these Pokemon in D rank are worse at their own respective roles than Tapu Fini, have less uses, and probably harder to fit on the majority of teams.

Now for C rank, there are a lot more stall water options. Tapu Fini is more viable than them because stall in general is not as viable as other water archetypes. Maybe I'm just not familiar with how stall Pokemon should be ranked, but that's the way it seems to me. Are you ever going to see Slowking used outside of stall? It's barely even used on stall to begin with. I also want to point out that Mantine is in C rank and is inferior to Tapu Fini in the current metagame for a number of reasons that I've talked about (compressing roles, momentum, ability to check more threats, doesn't lose to Bolt Beam coverage, etc.)

The problem with Tapu Fini is that you really just can't fit it on most Water teams. You are never replacing Greninja and Toxapex with it. You are also never replacing your Electric immunity or your Ground immunity. That's 4 teamslots that are always going to be unavailable. Of the last two slots, Keldeo almost always takes one. For the last slot, you're looking at your flex slot, but is Tapu Fini ever the best option here? Look at what's actually in B when you nominate it for that rank. Comparing Tapu Fini to the likes of Pelipper, Suicune, Mega Sharpedo, and Gyarados is just impossible given how many matchups those options can enable your team to cover.
Valid points. However, Tapu Fini also enables a number of matchups like some of these Pokemon, similar to Suicune actually, except it provides immediate utility for crippling Pokemon like Chansey and handles sweepers like Dragonite and Metronome Celesteela (can get knocked off).

Worth pointing out that Tapu Fini actually manages to be what is arguably the worst viable Defogger on Water. Every other viable Defogger is immune to Toxic Spikes, which means you aren't automatically losing to Toxic Spikes. That's absolutely huge and makes it impossible for Tapu Fini to be anywhere near the top by default. Going further, thouguh, Rotom-W, the only other Defogger that doesn't take neutral damage from Ferrothorn's Power Whip, has Will-O-Wisp to cripple it. Pelipper is literally the best rain setter and is more than happy to take the Defog role for rain teams, so you are literally never using Defog Tapu Fini on a rain team. Furthermore, most Defoggers are immune to Spikes, something Tapu Fini is especially vulnerable to due to its complete lack of recovery.
Toxic Spikes is almost entirely irrelevant when you have Toxapex on your team. Ferrothorn can be burned by a teammate's Scald before or after Terrain goes up and it also never wants to lose its Leftovers to Knock Off. Tapu Fini can always take at least one hit as well, and Defog + Taunt keeps hazards away better than Rotom-W, Pelipper, or Empoleon can, especially when you can't get hit by a status move in the process. You make a good point for why Defog users can struggle but Tapu Fini is still very capable of doing it's job for the rest of your team before fainting.

This very lack of recovery is why almost every calc isn't particularly meaningful because Tapu Fini lacks longevity. On a type like Water, longevity is far more important. Hope that explains why Tapu Fini isn't moving up!
The calcs just show that Tapu Fini is capable of preventing threatening sweepers from immediately causing too much damage (and the calcs for the Z-Haze set show that it can heal up while removing their stat raises after taking the hit). How many other Pokemon on water teams can actually take hits from Pokemon like Z Dragonite, Kommo-o, Breloom, or Jirachi and check them? It's better on offensive or balanced teams rather than teams that rely too much on longevity and stall Pokemon.
 
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Starting this off by saying I loved that VR update. all around good moves and I loved to see it being updated after the wait. Due to that I dont have nearly as many Nominations as last time but these are the ones I think should move as we approach the end of the generation.
:armaldo:Armaldo (Bug) S Rank -->A/B Rank
Every day this is above Forretress we stray further from god. It's weak to water which hurts, isn't bulky enough and doesn't get recovery, takes 25% from rocks so it's hard to clear even when rocks are up, cant come in well on tspikes, the list goes on and on about what this thing cant do. I'm not saying it's awful but I don't think it's S rank and I definitely don't think it should be above Forretress.

:rotom wash: Rotom-washv(Electric) S Rank -->A Rank
Rotom wash is for sure a fantastic pokemon,defog, willo,ground immunity, but in all reality I don't see wash sitting on the same level as Zeraora or Tapu Koko. It doesnt get actual reliable recovery, Is good for a pivot and things but in all reality isnt it better suited next to zapdos and raichu? both very strong Pokemon but I done't think they compare to the pillars that are Tapu Koko and Zeraora. I've been seeing people use other Rotom forms even sometimes or just dropping it all together. I think it's still amazing but Better suited to A rank.

:victini: Victini (Fire) C Rank-->B Rank
I havent used as much fire as I have some other types, but I hardly ever make a team without good old victini, between the Z set, scarf, band, Victini puts so much pressure on so many types with each of it's sets. Meanwhile B Rank volcarona isnt even on half of the fire teams and Is kind of lackluster compared to Victini in my opinion. I don't think Volc is bad I just don't see why it's above victini.

:volcarona: Volcarona (Fire) B Rank--> C Rank
As I think Victini is better than this, I think this is worse than Victini obviously, I think this belongs in C tier much more than B tier when talking about your standard fire team. I think it's pretty much always going to be the quiver dance set and while good most types do have checks for it, also taking 50% to stealth rocks is something no Pokemon should be excited about. Overall I just think it's worse on fire and should move down.

:tapu Fini: Tapu Fini (Water) D Rank--> C Rank
I know Eien kinda shot this down already but I wanted to mirror it anyways, I've been seeing it on water and I think it serves a pretty cool role on some balance teams. I don't think it's anything huge and certainly not B rank but I for sure think this is better than the D ranks and on Par with most if not all of the C rank Pokemon.Z haze, blocking Kommo-o,taunt, defog, calm mind sets, overall a pretty cool Pokemon I've been trying out and looking into.

:armaldo:Armaldo (Bug) S Rank -->A/B Rank
Please don't misunderstand I didnt post Armaldo twice by accident. This mon being S rank and above Forretress is a sin, and I wanted to make sure you wouldnt miss my first nomination about it. Forretress getting sturdy custap, spikes,and not being Poisoned by Tspikes/can switch into toxic are some of the reasons that I dont think this should be above forretress. Honestly I would Nominate Forretress for S rank but as long as this creature get's moved down then I can be happy. Please get this thing out of the sacred S rank where actual good pokemon belong.
 
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mushamu

God jihyo
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A couple of nominations, the generation is almost over and a lot of the good changes were made in the past VR update, which I really like. :heart:

(Dragon) S --> A

Latios hasn't necessarily gotten worse but compared to how other Pokemon are ranked on Dragon Latios seems a bit.. out of place. With Latias's Healing Wish being amazing support, Latios has fallen off as the go-to Scarfer, which leads to it being slightly less common on Dragon teams nowadays. I would prefer for this to be on the same rank as Latias, as I think they're both pretty good in terms of speed control, with Latios having better damage output as a Scarfer and Latias's Healing Wish both being very useful. I also don't necessarily think its an entire rank better than Kommo-O or Garchomp, but maybe that's just Dragon having lots of good Pokemon to work with coming into play making it kind of hard to tell.

(Water) Unranked --> D

With Toxapex being the superior Water / Poison type it is true that this is harder to use in SM than in ORAS. However, it does still have a niche on Water, being able to compress Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin into one slot can be cool for certain teams, although I don't think its main niche is on Sticky Web Water like Sirskit said. In addition to that, Liquid Ooze is also good for punishing things like Tapu Bulu's Horn Leech, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Celesteela's Leech Seed, preventing them for healing for free. It's also fast enough to outspeed and use Sludge Bomb on Tapu Bulu, something Toxapex cannot do. All in all, I'm sure this Pokemon has a viable niche on Water, and being ranked D alongside other niche Pokemon shows that.

(Water) D --> Unranked

Don't think I've ever seen this used before. I know its supposed to be some sort of anti-Flying tech with Competitive punishing the Defog users but I feel like there are a lot of better anti-Flying options out there, even if its not Greninja you're using to cteam the type with. As far as I know, you're getting outsped by most of Flying's offensive threats while Mantine's decreased usage on Flying also makes it easy to punch holes using other Pokemon.
 
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maroon

free palestine
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RMT & Mono Leader
(Dark) Mega Houndoom [Unranked to D]
:sm/houndoom-mega:
Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Will-O-Wisp / Sludge Bomb / Substitute

While I know Mega Sableye is pretty much the Mega that every Dark team uses, Mega Houndoom can come in clutch in a decent number of matchups. Its ability to act as a strong special setup sweeper is pretty nice and its Fire-type coverage allows it to hit Steel- and Ice-type Pokemon such as Klefki and Alolan Ninetales, which can be troublesome for Dark teams. Its fourth slot is pretty flexible, with it being able to run a variety of different moves. Will-O-Wisp allows it to cripple physical attackers and be useful in matchups such as Ground by crippling Garchomp. Sludge Bomb alongside Fire Blast allows it to hit all Fairy-types for super effective damage, which needless to say is very cool for Dark teams. I believe Mega Houndoom has a place on Offensive Dark teams and while it might not be as widely useful as Mega Tyranitar it still has its shining moments. Overall I believe Mega Houndoom deserves a place on the Monotype VR!

Replays below:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-984527871-imbq882ib0wv2032skqr6cmr1y7d0ibpw vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-984543915-0i2ice35bko4zdxm63unhd2w14a8xv7pw vs Steel
 
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Garchomp (Ground) A -> S Rank
This might seem like a generous raise in the rankings but Garchomp actually fits into S rank nicely. There is essentially no ground team, with or without sand, that is ever better off not using Garchomp unless Mega Garchomp is being used, and the purpose for that is usually only to handle Azumarill for teams with Gastrodon (as regular Garchomp is just better all around). Garchomp has the best non boosted speed tier on Ground and it can utilize Z moves which allows it to function as a wall breaker just as well as Landorus-I can, if not better in some matchups, like against Normal, Flying, Psychic, or Dark. It also has a decent defensive typing and enough bulk to take hits from Pokemon like Mega Charizard Y and Mega Sharpedo.

Krookodile (Ground) C -> D Rank
Krookodile is almost never seen on teams and for a good reason. There simply isn't room for it on any good Ground team because it's inferior to Pokemon like Landorus-T and Garchomp as a scarf user and cannot wall break the way Pokemon like Mamoswine or Nidoking can. It has terrible bulk and a lackluster attack with a decent at best speed tier, which prevents Krookodile from being able to fit on Ground teams and actually serve a purpose that other Pokemon cannot. Comparing Krookodile to the other C rank Pokemon such as Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Nidoking which are capable of serving vital roles on Ground teams doesn't really make sense. Diggersby is honestly better than this thing.
 
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twinkay

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:krookodile: Dark - Krookodile B --> A
This mon is simply amazing for Dark tbh and I think it's definitely one of the top picks for the type. It has gone from solely a Sash lead for HO Dark to being a great Rocker for any dark build, including M-Sableye builds, which greatly expands its splashability. Having Krook has a Rocker opens up opportunities for Tyranitar to run DD Rockium or anything else really, but reversing the roles is perfectly fine; Krook is also a great Scarfer for Dark and can pose a late-game threat that arguably no other Scarfer on Dark can do, as it can easily clean with Moxie. I should also add that Sash Krook is still a very good Rocker even if you aren't running pure HO, and you can experiment with stuff like Helmet, etc.

:drapion: Dark - Drapion UNR --> D
Decem covered this a while back; Drapion has a lot of interesting options that make it a nice tech option for certain builds. It's another Scarfer that is a better anti-Fairy tech than Muk as it can actually revenge kill and threaten rather than wait around to get crit or whatever lol. Also Toxic Spikes are great on Dark and having it on this is a lot more favorable than putting it on Gren. Overall, it does have some upside and is comparable to Cacturne in terms of machup fish imo, and I'd use it way more than I'd use like Honchkrow or rainless Crawdaunt.

:houndoom-mega: Dark - Mega Houndoom UNR --> D
Completely agree with maroon here: Houndoom is another viable tech option that has a lot of positive matchups, stuff like Grass, Steel, and Fairy where it can prove a lot more useful than the other two Mega options. Even though giving up Sableye or Tyranitar is admittedly unappealing, Houndoom undoubtedly has a place on Dark builds so it should be ranked. Also see above statement on current Dark D ranks lol

:tapu-bulu: Grass - Tapu Bulu A --> B / C
Unfortunately, as I once was a proponent of this Pokemon, Tapu Bulu is pretty trash on Grass at the moment. For my first piece of evidence, I'll present the sheet:
Screenshot_3.png

Yeah. Having a pitiful MPL, Tapu Bulu saw 11% less usage than even Cradily, which was recently also discovered as bad on Grass and was dropped to C. There really just isn't any place for Bulu on the type anymore, as there are so many Pokemon that you would rather run. Aside from the obligatory Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn, there's also Breloom, which is one of the most threatening breakers on the type and is also a very threatening cleaner, Whimsicott, which is the best utility option available to the type and something I will discuss more below, Celebi, which is either a Nasty Plot breaker or a better Rocker than Cradily, Decidueye, which gives Grass a fighting chance against Psychic. There's also Cradily, which fell from grace but is still okay, Serperior, which is lowkey a better Scarfer than Bulu, and even Rotom-Mow which is anti-Flying tech. I would even consider all of the latter to have a place before Grass besides the aforementioned six. Bulu's niche just isn't good enough to keep up with the rest, as a Scarfer it doesn't offer much that the other Pokemon can't already deal with. Even if the team is running no Scarf, Whimsicott can provide emergency speed control with Tailwind, and you have multiple forms of priority in the form of Breloom Mach Punch and Decidueye Shadow Sneak. It's not completely unviable but has definitely lost its place on the type.

:whimsicott: Grass - Whimsicott B --> A
Not to rely too much on the sheet, but:
Screenshot_4.png

This usage is pretty insane. Whimsi has quickly established itself as a staple of modern Grass, and it's not hard to see why. Its Moonblast is very spammable versus Dark and Dragon, and it can make those previously bad matchups into a pain for the opposition. Apart from that, Whimsi has a ton of support options, including Tailwind for speed control and general endgame disruption, U-turn for getting safe switches into your more threatening wallbreakers, Stun Spore for more speed control and the ability to cripple major threats like Victini. Encore is another option that can thwart set-up sweepers like Deoxys-S or Kommo-o. Whimsi just has a ton of upside without really anything to lose, and is definitely worth A rank on the type in my opinion.

:pelipper: Water - Pelipper B --> A
This nom might be kind of strange, but I think Pelipper is a really strong pick for Water and also a lot better than the other B ranks of the type. Pelipper just has so much utility outside of solely setting Rain that it has become a top pick. I think one of the best aspects of Pelipper is that it doesn't necessitate full rain, and really only needs one partner in Mega Swampert, and Swampert is going to find its way onto the large majority of Water teams anyway. In fact, one of the best Water frameworks at the moment is Peli / M-Pert / Rotom-W / Pex / Gren / Keld, which is really only rivaled in prevalency by the M-Pedo regular Pert version of the team, but even that isn't really as common. Plus, Pelipper has the ability to provide an out vs Grass that can really only be matched by Gyarados, provide a secondary Ground immunity to check stuff like Exca, can Defog, U-turn into your wallbreakers, and more. This is all without mentioning Rain. Rain is amazing for the wide variety of Pokemon on Water that can abuse it. Of course, there is the obvious M-Pert, but there's also Kingdra, Seismitoad, Manaphy, and Keldeo who can abuse it. Pelipper provides a large amount of benefits for the type and I think its worth the A ranking.


Also, I know this was mentioned before by I want to say Guwahavel, but the D rankings need work imo. There's just a lot of stuff in there with no place on their respective types, and they are often snuffing out mons with an actual niche (like the ones in Dark I wrote about). Here's quite a few that I'm not going to write a ton about but need consideration:
D --> UNR
:vivillon: Bug - Vivillon
I know it's Bug and all the lower tiers are kind of memes but I don't see this having non-low ladder viability, it's p awful and I don't see it offering anything valuable to the type
:crawdaunt: :honchkrow: Dark - Crawdaunt, Honchkrow
Crawdaunt is kinda trash without Rain tbh and I don't think Honchkrow has ever been viable
:mandibuzz: Flying - Mandibuzz
Even though it's great on Dark it doesn't really offer anything to Flying you don't already have
:dusclops: Ghost - Dusclops but also literally everything besides Shedinja
Dusclops and Froslass are memes, Dhelmise and [REDACTED] are just worse Decidueyes
:amoonguss: Grass - Amoonguss
It's a worse Mega Venusaur and Mega Venusaur should be on every Grass team
:quagsire: Ground - Quagsire
ig you can use this on Stall Ground lol? but are we really acknowledging this as a playstyle in 2019
:heliolisk: Normal - Heliolisk
I've literally never seen this mon used before and we all know Exploud is the wave anyway
:deoxys-defense: Psychic - Deoxys-D
ig you can use this on Stall Psychic lol? but are we really acknowledging this as a playstyle in 2019? I will admit this makes a great core with Meowstic-F though
:lycanroc-dusk: Rock - Lycanroc-D
i don't even know what you would run on this mon tbh
:milotic: Water - Milotic
cute mon but this is about as good an anti-Flying tech as Heliolisk

UNR --> D
:druddigon: Dragon - Druddigon
Havens nommed this a while back but it's an interesting rocker at least and I would use it over Mega Garchomp any day
:virizion: Fighting - Virizion
The only two times Fighting has ever been viable is Virizion Screens and Namranan's MLT run
:tentacruel: Water - Tentacruel
Another Decem nom, it had a nice showcase in MPL and has a number of viable uses for Water

might be more i'm forgetting


That's all--free Tapu Fini btw
 
Ice
Froslass ~ C —> B

froslass @ focus sash/leftovers
snow cloak
(timid 252+ spe, prob 252 spa)
Will o wisp / Thunder wave
Hex
Destiny Bond/Substitute
Spikes/Ice beam/Icy wind

i think froslass actually fits rly well with walrein(/lapras) as a check to a specific attacking type, with spikes as a bonus. being an HO type every fighting type is crippled by twave and every fighting type other than keldeo (and kommo o partially) is crippled by burn, making both wisp and twave viable. hex is obv boosted by either status and notably hits m-gallade. substitute is ideal for if froslass can come into a choice locked fighting move, particularly during hail bc of snow cloak and also if paired with thunder wave both of which give chances of keeping the sub up for longer. alternatively since froslass’s presence already deters choice locked fighting moves and froslass can still status the switch in without substitute, destiny bond provides broader utility outside of matchups w threatening fighting type attackers, given froslass’s good speed tier. ice beam (or maybe icy wind) should rly solely be considered on twave sets to be able to hit some twave immune pokemon, otherwise spikes fills this slot and together with destiny bond enables froslass to be used as an effective lead in matchups where its typing and status move isnt needed, and notably means the team doesnt necessarily need to run SR given that ice has a good matchup vs multiscale dragonite (on either of its teams) anyway and the only focus sash user immune to spikes is regular aero which is uncommon and almost always leads anyway. mentioning this bc it is a way to free up a teamslot for froslass, ie u can run an offensive mamoswine without requiring the team to run piloswine for SR. (obv im not saying that SR wouldnt still be v helpful esp vs volcanora and zard y, only that i think mono ice is viable without sr if it has spikes.)
usually u either want one set or the other ie twave + substitute or wisp + destiny bond, as twave clashes with destiny bond and getting a substitute up is more threatening when u run twave due to being able to fish for full paralysis. wisp + sub is possible tho and maybe running both status moves is too but usually one of the two main sets is best.
leftovers should only be considered on a twave + substitute set in order to be able to set more subs particularly when fishing for full para. overall focus sash is more consistent and the only viable item for wisp + destiny bond + spikes sets, notably allowing froslass to emergency check m-scizor if focus sash is intact / there are no hazards.

froslass completely changes the fighting matchup which is otherwise almost unwinable as a-ninetales is too overworked and not strong enough by itself and the extra base speed point also allows froslass to speed tie m-gallade. fighting tends to carry multiple choice users and its scarfer is also rarely obvious from preview so froslass’s ability to take advantage of those choice locked pokemon (esp if sub/twave) after a teammate is ko’ed is crucial and will repeatedly generate momentum which obv is very important vs an HO type.
but there are key choiced fighting attackers on other types, eg (esp scarf) physical infernape on fire which usually does not want to lock itself into flare blitz as that provides set up opportunity for cloyster which is ice’s best wincon in that matchup, whereas without froslass scarf nape sweeps pretty easily with close combat. choiced terrakion and keldeo on rock and water are also v impacted by not being able to freely use their otherwise preferable stabs (terrakion since cc is its stronger and more accurate stab) tho not as dramatically as scarf nape on fire.
froslass also stops any potential breloom sweep with will o wisp (whether focus sash is intact or not), or alternatively if twave + ice beam, ko’s w ice beam if loom’s sash is broken.
snow cloak can also save a game with a lucky miss and responding with status to prevent a sweep, which is appreciated for offensive teams / a poor defensive type like ice that can never check every threat.

overall froslass contributes in every matchup esp if wisp/bond/spikes and in addition to its primary role of fast fighting immunity can emergency check big threats like scizor with sash. to me its better than walrein bc it doesnt require a momentum draining choice item to do its job and has more broadly effective utility. while sub/twave is less consistent it has the possibility to “set up” at some point in most matchups due to snow cloak and its speed tier allowing it to set subs and fish for misses against inaccurate attacs, or alternatively can sac itself to paralyze the biggest threat to the team.

there are matchups like normal and poison where it contributes little but overall choiced fighting type moves are common in the tier and an immunity to them together with crippling status moves that few ice types learn and that it can use effectively due to its speed and immunity make it a serious pokemon to consider on (hyper or balanced offensive) ice teams, obv not at the level of kyurem-b a-ninetales or mamoswine but id say def in the upper half of the b tier.
 
Worth pointing out that Tapu Fini actually manages to be what is arguably the worst viable Defogger on Water. Every other viable Defogger is immune to Toxic Spikes, which means you aren't automatically losing to Toxic Spikes. That's absolutely huge and makes it impossible for Tapu Fini to be anywhere near the top by default. Going further, thouguh, Rotom-W, the only other Defogger that doesn't take neutral damage from Ferrothorn's Power Whip, has Will-O-Wisp to cripple it. Pelipper is literally the best rain setter and is more than happy to take the Defog role for rain teams, so you are literally never using Defog Tapu Fini on a rain team. Furthermore, most Defoggers are immune to Spikes, something Tapu Fini is especially vulnerable to due to its complete lack of recovery.
toxic spikes is bizarre to bring up for a tapu fini team, since whenever misty terrain is in effect the team is protected from them providing flexibility about when to bring in toxapex (or tentacruel if thats run instead) to absorb them. there is no reason why a water team should be using defog to remove toxic spikes when u have toxapex as was said above and bc of misty terrain tapu fini teams are maybe the best protected from toxic spikes.
i dont agree that pelipper is happy to be the teams defogger, hurricane and roost are mandatory u turn is too useful which means u are dropping scald which is pelippers most generally spammable move and specifically the best move for weather wars thus allowing pelipper to fill its intended function most effectively. and pelipper is overworked on rain already, it runs defog when the team has no better user but ... its a physical wall it wants to have scald to threaten the pokemon it walls (again esp excadril).

the biggest issue w tapu fini is not anything youve said (although its durability as a defogger is significant) but what was said when tapu fini was first brought up a few pages back that most water teams thrive on spreading status having by far the best tspikes user (pex) and having the best stab move for spreading status (scald). other than greninja which doesnt run water stab (but does run gunk shot sometimes) and the viable megas which are all physical, most viable water types run scald often if not always (lol except for sap sipper azumarill which obv would not be used w tapu fini).

i think tapu fini running defog doesnt make much sense, esp since other balance poke that benefit from misty terrain like rotom-w, or AV tentacruel which might replace pex due to misty terrain interfering with a lot of pex’s utility and to protect the team from leech seed which misty terrain doesnt prevent, are better hazard removers. and in this case actually pelipper bc pelipper running scald is much less important on a misty terrain team, and m-swampert benefits possibly the most from misty terrain since the other megas require set up (mgyara is more likely to be dealt with by revenge killing and msharpedo will waste its misty terrain turns while boosting its speed) and greninja is too hard to status.
the sets that seem to make the most sense to me are stallbreaker (taunt + natures madness or the taunt+cm proposed set is an interesting idea but tapu finis dual stabs dont exactly provide good coverage and among other things leave it hopelessly walled by m-venusaur and ferrothorn), or icium z haze particularly if paired with tentacruel over toxapex.
but the point that was made is that the primary limit to its viability is that misty terrain fits only on very specific builds / the team almost has to be built around misty terrain, and specifically its interference with one of water’s two best pokemon in toxapex.
 
toxic spikes is bizarre to bring up for a tapu fini team, since whenever misty terrain is in effect the team is protected from them providing flexibility about when to bring in toxapex (or tentacruel if thats run instead) to absorb them. there is no reason why a water team should be using defog to remove toxic spikes when u have toxapex as was said above and bc of misty terrain tapu fini teams are maybe the best protected from toxic spikes.
i dont agree that pelipper is happy to be the teams defogger, hurricane and roost are mandatory u turn is too useful which means u are dropping scald which is pelippers most generally spammable move and specifically the best move for weather wars thus allowing pelipper to fill its intended function most effectively. and pelipper is overworked on rain already, it runs defog when the team has no better user but ... its a physical wall it wants to have scald to threaten the pokemon it walls (again esp excadril).

the biggest issue w tapu fini is not anything youve said (although its durability as a defogger is significant) but what was said when tapu fini was first brought up a few pages back that most water teams thrive on spreading status having by far the best tspikes user (pex) and having the best stab move for spreading status (scald). other than greninja which doesnt run water stab (but does run gunk shot sometimes) and the viable megas which are all physical, most viable water types run scald often if not always (lol except for sap sipper azumarill which obv would not be used w tapu fini).

i think tapu fini running defog doesnt make much sense, esp since other balance poke that benefit from misty terrain like rotom-w, or AV tentacruel which might replace pex due to misty terrain interfering with a lot of pex’s utility and to protect the team from leech seed which misty terrain doesnt prevent, are better hazard removers. and in this case actually pelipper bc pelipper running scald is much less important on a misty terrain team, and m-swampert benefits possibly the most from misty terrain since the other megas require set up (mgyara is more likely to be dealt with by revenge killing and msharpedo will waste its misty terrain turns while boosting its speed) and greninja is too hard to status.
the sets that seem to make the most sense to me are stallbreaker (taunt + natures madness or the taunt+cm proposed set is an interesting idea but tapu finis dual stabs dont exactly provide good coverage and among other things leave it hopelessly walled by m-venusaur and ferrothorn), or icium z haze particularly if paired with tentacruel over toxapex.
but the point that was made is that the primary limit to its viability is that misty terrain fits only on very specific builds / the team almost has to be built around misty terrain, and specifically its interference with one of water’s two best pokemon in toxapex.
Toxic Spikes affects Tapu Fini before it sets up Misty Terrain, so it cannot prevent itself from being poisoned by its effect. This differs from every other Defogger because Empoleon is immune to poison while Pelipper, Mantine, and Rotom-W are all airborne and are unaffected by Toxic Spikes altogether. This is why I said that Defog Tapu Fini teams are the most vulnerable to Toxic Spikes; necessarily, given that Tapu Fini is the only Defogger that is weak to it, teams with it as Defogger are always the most susceptible to the entry hazard. Toxapex alone is never sufficient for blocking Toxic Spikes because most Toxic Spike users can simply set up another layer on Toxapex. As an example, opposing Water teams can play Toxapex vs Toxapex but win in the long-term because they can switch out to their Toxic Spikes-immune Pokemon while Tapu Fini is woefully weak to the hazard and cannot switch. Not being able to switch in that situation means you lose if it comes down to PP, which it very well may.

Pelipper is totally okay with being the Defogger for rain teams because all of its sets have the room to run it. On defensive sets, you don't run Hurricane because it deals irrelevant damage to Toxapex and Ferrothorn. Also, defensive sets are happily dropping Scald as well because U-turn + Knock Off is far superior utility than a simple, unreliable burn. As a result, yes, on defensive sets, you would have the room to run Defog. On offensive sets Choice Specs sets, Hurricane deals enough damage to opposing Toxapex that Knock Off's utility of removing Leftovers is not nearly as valuable as bringing Defog to the team, particularly around removing Stealth Rock.

The fact that Tapu Fini sets Misty Terrain is in no way a reason to not run Toxic Spikes or Scald. The fact is, you control Tapu Fini, which means you control Misty Terrain. This is the same faulty reasoning that people used to use to claim that Z-Hypnosis was bad on Xurkitree because Tapu Koko's Electric Terrain blocked its sleep effect. You will continue to use Toxic Spikes and Scald with the awareness of how you manipulate your terrain control. The idea that Tapu Fini blocks either move and needs to be built around is simply wrong. As much as I don't think Tapu Fini is as amazing as some would say, Toxapex and Tapu Fini are compatible and you aren't losing one of the best Pokemon in Monotype just to run it.
 
z-hypnosis only has to set up once vs defensive pokemon switching in multiple times so its not rly a good comparison.

obviously tapu fini doesnt mean u cant run pex i j said it interferes with it. it does interfere bc u have to choose eg whenever u have tspikes set between not using tapu fini or invalidating ur own tspikes during those turns.
particularly when u are talking about defensive pokemon when u bring them in is not so much under ur control bc they have to come in to check specific threats. either way if u are forced to bring in tapu fini when uve already set tspikes, or if u are forced to bring in pex while misty terrain is set pex can basically only haze and recover til the terrain ends (obv it can set tspikes but the opponent gets free turns to remove it before it can status anything).

i dont understand how a rain team without hurricane is touching mvenusaur (or if u are j sacing those matchups or maybe relying on pex pp stalling) but ill leave it at that bc idk the team structure for that pelipper set.

tapu fini can usually be brought into a tspikes setter directly. there arent rly any surprise tspikes setters in this tier and other than the rare rock nihilego set w tspikes and ground nido(k) w tspikes, tapu fini can generally switch in safely. and eg in the pex vs pex situation u are talking about, u can also switch tapu fini in immediately after pex absorbs the existing tspikes and that will work as long as pex switches into a move other than tspikes. im not talking about bringing in tapu fini to clear them w defog, it j switches in and then eg if pex is the setter switch directly to m-swampert or whatever the teams way is to threaten pex and the terrain protects m swampert from anything relevant pex can do.

overall i guess i dont understand how you are viewing using tapu fini. misty terrain is tapu fini's niche, if u arent using it for misty terrain then ur prob better off with sap sipper azumarill, or another pokemon depending on what the role/set of tapu fini was meant to be. ("for comparison" on fairy misty terrain is useless bc koko and bulu overwrite it mdiancie has magic bounce klefki only cares about burn if its foul play and clefable if used has magic guard.)
misty terrain pairs effectively w pokes such as subcm keldeo or suicine which dont have to worry about 50/50s of setting sub to block status vs set up cm (and by the time terrain wears off the sub wont be breakable by the defensive pokemon they set up on), as well as mswampert which needs rain vs offensive threats but may prefer misty terrain vs defensive pokemon (esp poison teams which dont care about waterfall anyway and mvenusaur can only switch into eq so many times given synthesis pp). if u arent using specific pokemon that benefit from misty terrain or using misty terrain as part of the teams wallbreaking strategy, then u shouldnt be using tapu fini at all. and even then you should be considering how it impacts the rest of the team with pex being the most obvious. tapu fini teams do not want to lose momentum bc that is the advantage of bringing wallbreakers in under misty terrain (over eg heal bell lanturn) and liquid ooze can be very helpful for (eg / continuing the example above) preventing mvenusaur from regaining health from giga drain or leech seed and ensuring it is reliant on synthesis's 8pp for its recovery; so dropping pex may be a consideration on tapu fini teams for all these reasons. but my point is its clearly a niche playstyle and a "typical" (balance or stall) water team is not going to have any interest in using tapu fini's misty terrain.

a few edits/clarifications~
1 tapu fini is truly the best switchin in the tier to toxapex since outside of the never used sludge bomb it doesnt care abt any move pex might use due to its status immunity and resisting scald, so it takes no damage other than from any entry hazards, and then can proceed to stallbreak or switch out directly to an offensive teammate that can also come in safely due to misty terrain. eien's description above seems to pretend tapu fini is played like rotom-w or pelipper in talking about pex mirrors but if u are using a tapu fini team there is no mirror bc everytime opponent's pex comes in is an immediate free switchin for tapu fini. the 'worst case' is a double switch on the turn tapu fini comes in but thats usually not even that much of a worst case bc it still did its job of setting terrain and did so without taking any damage, and there arent many pokes that even can generate much momentum against tapu fini since its bulky and not passive. whereas if they dont double switch u are the one thats gained momentum bc tapu fini can do whatever it wants and pex doesnt rly want to take any of taunt, knock off, or natures madness.
i realize i left out dragalge of tspikes setters that can threaten tapu fini but it still stands that none are rly common. against the by far most relevant tspikes setter in the tier, tapu fini puts its team in an excellent position by generating momentum immediately, it rly has nothing to do with the teams defogger (or spinner). and tapu fini obv can switch into toxic as well as into tspikes, and it switches in pretty safely to every common toxic spreader other than zapdos (including salazzle).
2 i left m-slowbro out of the list of megas, and it also benefits greatly from misty terrain support as it can run slack off over rest and by the time the terrain ends if its boosted enough itl be too late for toxic to end its sweep.
overall offensive pokemon tend to benefit most from the momentum tapu fini can provide against passive pokemon, but m-slowbro does too since it becomes offensively threatening pretty quickly and can use momentum from tapu fini to start its sweep.
 
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~ Steel ~
Excadril A to B (drop)

idt excadril in A reflects the latest metagame at all. im assuming scarf exca so if its being ranked partly bc of other sets then maybe thats why im off.
vs electric it cannot do what its supposed to against most teams bc of air balloon alolan golem
vs fire it is not at all reliable since the biggest threats are volcanora and zard x which outspeed it at +1, and nape which is usually scarf. (basically if ur not running staka u cant win the fire mu, and anyway ur chances depend much more on defensively preserving heatrans balloon than any revenge killing).
its prob most effective in the fairy mu but ... and its decently effective vs offensive types esp fighting (as long as u correctly identify the opp scarfer) and it doesnt rly do enough vs dragon to change that bad mu.
steel has better speed control in twave klefki and in some situations pseudo speed control from TR staka. twave ofc doesnt help vs electric but neither does exca assuming they have a-golem, so the one mu ur giving up speed control in is ground.
staka is far better vs electric (since its z move kos golem-a) and fire, which is what excadrils offensive typing was supposed to help against, and it maybe used to be more effective there before golem-a was common and when zard-y was more common on fire. for other/general speed control twave klefki is better/more reliable speed control plus it provides much more general utility to the team. (exca is not a good spinner)
in comparison to ferro which is one of the most important defensive pokemon for steel and m-scizor which is its most threatening, exca j does not belong there at all. i think it belongs in/around the same ranking as klefki and staka as all three deal (very imperfectly) w faster threats and each has different benefits over the others. (staka is obv the least effective @ 'speed control' but its the most threatening offensively.) id rank klefki highest of the three if anything.


~ Electric ~
M-manectric D to C/B (rise)
i didnt/dont agree with it being dropped that low, at all. the main reasoning if i read it correctly seems to be that it isnt needed as a strong/fast special attacker bc of tapu koko but that rly only applies to choice specs tapu koko, which is prob not a set u would run alongside m-manectric.
by running m-manectric u free up tapu koko to run a different set, eg taunt (magnet), also there are other options like shuca berry and a set i like using is band koko alongside m-manectric which gives the team a strong fast u-turn that no other electric poke can viably provide and so strenghtens the teams all important voltturn capabilities, as well as brave bird for m-venu. (if u have a-golem to trap ferrothorn then band tapu koko can almost deal w the rest of grass by itself so u have filled thundurus's role.)
not needing to run specs tapu koko is rly helpful vs any team w a ground type as u dont lose anywhere near as much momentum if a ground type comes into m-manectric's volt switch as compared to specs tapu koko's, and m-manectrics volt switch is still v strong due to its much higher spa stat.
intimidate is also rlyy helpful, offensively it allows m-manectric to eg not be ohko'ed by m-aero, which is not true of any other offensive poke on electric and leaves electric teams without m-manectric actually struggling vs m-aero flying teams, and defensively it allows electric to deal w an otherwise threatening curse sweeper like alolan muk by pivoting around and decreasing its attack w intimidate while it is unable to curse up fast enough to overcome the attack drops while still preserving its health w recycle.
prob the most important coverage u lose by running m-manectric and eg a band/physical tapu koko is dazzling gleam, which leaves u a lot worse in the dragon mu. but thats rly the only mu thats a lot worse and eg cb u turn helps a lot in the psychic mu and m-manectric is better than specs koko vs ground due to being able to hit excadril/msteelix (and therefore only rly being forced out by mamoswine, which is easily walled by rotom-w, and seismotoad/gastrodon). anyway my point is the power and coverage is different but not at all clearly worse than eg specs koko + mixed thundurus, m-manectric to me should therefore be at least as high as thundurus, tbh higher bc its voltturn playstyle (and spreading intimidate) is much better suited to electric than the stat drops from thundurus's superpower and its reliance on flyinium z.

~psychic~
M-Gardevoir D to C (rise)
while overall mgallade is usually better as an antidark offensive mega and why m-gard is much lower, on teams that use scarf victini mgard is sometimes if not often a better team fit bc
• vs msableye ~ obv always the primary consideration for choosing mgard over mgallade, but particularly when using scarf over band victini and thus losing psychics best way to pressure msableye other than mgard.
also note that mgard not only breaks msableye but can switch in directly (taking little from any of its standard attacks and even bouncing back wisp if it hasnt mega evolved yet). this allows teammates to use esp choiced fighting coverage much more safely vs dark bc of having one of the best offensive switchins to msableye other than mdiancie and therefore not rly losing any momentum to it. eg using focus blast over uturn on scarf victini, focus blast on specs meloetta (or ccombat on mixed meloetta-p), focus blast over dazzling gleam on alakazam.
• vs dragon ~ scarf victini can do very little to dragon types but mgard does v well against most. against dragon teams it generally only requires removing garchomp to ko the rest of the team as it resists scarf lati’s stabs, can tank one scarf latios hp steel, mega latias if present cannot set up on it, and it outspeeds and sweeps the rest of the team except for dnite’s espeed. it also has many switchin opportunities eg on scarf lati using anything besides hp steel (which is not a move it wants to use vs psychic), on kommo-o esp to block its z move but into any move other than anti fairy coverage if it is running it (eg taunt sets dont) and garchomp or dnite if they are locked into outrage. vs some dragons on other types it can switch in even more easily such as scarf latis on psychic and kommo-o on fighting, and to some extent hydreigon on dark tho it does not want to switch into its uturn and is usually better to sac a teammate instead of taking the dark pulse damage.
• vs steel ~ this is the key matchup where mgard struggles badly compared to mgallade and why mgallade is sm better overall. but steel is scarf victinis best matchup since blue flare sweeps once heatran is removed, and the mu is even better if victini runs focus blast over uturn which in addition to beating heatran is safe to be locked into. (again focus blast on scarf victini is only rly viable w mgard).
• mgallades other major advantage in general over mgard is its better speed tier but that is somewhat less important with lati@s not running scarf still covering that speed tier and revenging pokemon like garchomp that outspeed gard and that victini cant ko.
mgard being psychics only viable user of fairy type moves outside of zam’s weak dazzling gleam is even more important on teams using scarf victini that often struggle to break mega sableye and scarf victini covers mgards biggest drawback, the steel matchup, and makes mgard a serious consideration compared to mgallade on teams using scarf victini.
while scarf victini is no longer victinis most common set it is still common, and mgard’s high level of viability on those teams i think is enough to raise it to C alongside the other good megas, as opposed to being in D with mega alakazam which “has a niche” but is taking away a higher rank poke in sash zam, basically sacking mus bc of its single typing/stab and not great coverage, and forced to rely on a colbur berry lure to check msharpedo that is only disguised by the fact that zam is basically a bad mega choice for psychic and therefore players will always assume zam is sash and st else (lati or slowbro) is the mega. a mega that is the best or close to the best mega option for a sizable number of psychic teams does not belong in the same tier as a mega that is rly only viable by bluffing that it is its superior base form.
 
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:krookodile: Dark - Krookodile B --> A
This mon is simply amazing for Dark tbh and I think it's definitely one of the top picks for the type. It has gone from solely a Sash lead for HO Dark to being a great Rocker for any dark build, including M-Sableye builds, which greatly expands its splashability. Having Krook has a Rocker opens up opportunities for Tyranitar to run DD Rockium or anything else really, but reversing the roles is perfectly fine; Krook is also a great Scarfer for Dark and can pose a late-game threat that arguably no other Scarfer on Dark can do, as it can easily clean with Moxie. I should also add that Sash Krook is still a very good Rocker even if you aren't running pure HO, and you can experiment with stuff like Helmet, etc.
I agree with this completely and would like to note that without Krookidile nothing on Dark can take 2 (mostly not even 1) Plasma Fists from Banded Zeraora. Just having Krookidile in back makes Dark's match up vs. Electric completely tolerable and winnable. From the other side, if I'm playing Electric against a Krookidile-less Dark team, I know it's a free game.
 

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