No Guard Galaxy

[Ghoul King]

Discounting Ubers and Smeargle, there's actually 9 fully evolved Pokemon that get Dragon Rush.

Banning Dragon Rush to unbreak Mega Charizard X has a lot of problems. One of the main ones is that honestly part of X's problem is that Y exists and is plenty amazing too, and the things that are a valid switchin on one of them are generally a terrible idea to switch in on the other. Charizard would still be a nightmare if you banned Dragon Rush. Honestly, the main difference would be that Quagsire would return to being a reliable stop to it, which would be something, though I'd not be a fan of feeling forced to run Quagsire on every team no matter what.

It also has the knock-off effect of weakening a number of other Pokemon for literally no reason except trying to preserve access to Mega Charizard X. Why on earth do we care more about keeping a Pokemon in the meta than about keeping a move in the meta? Sure, if the move really is just fundamentally the problem -Swagger, Baton Pass clauses, Chatter in Balanced Hackmons and some other OMs- then ban the move, but banning a move to keep a specific Pokemon in is really silly. It's not like Mega Charizard X is a linchpin piece helping keep the meta stable. It's not Quagsire and Clefable, whose Unaware builds help keep setup from being too ridiculous. Mega Charizard X doesn't bring anything to the table that helps stabilize the meta, even if you ban Dragon Rush and assume that makes it non-broken.

And if we are prioritizing maximizing the number if Pokemon in the meta... we should still ban Charizardite X. More than 50% of the teams I fight have Charizard as their Mega, and of those more than 50% have it as Mega Charizard X. Mega Charizard X's dominance is implicitly keeping other Megas out of the meta, because it's hard to argue for, say, Mega Altaria running Sing on your team, when you could run Mega Charizard X and be vastly more threatening.

So if we want to maximize the number of viable Pokemon being run by people, we should ban Mega Charizard X so people run other Megas. Two Megas dominating the metagame is clearly less diverse than having people running the dozen-ish Megas that are popular in OU, even assuming no other Megas would suddenly rise in popular in NGG that are kind of meh in Standard. (Mega Ampharos is an obvious one)

So? Extremespeed is broken in a lot of OMs and has very low distribution, but I can't think of a single instance where the move itself and not the users are banned. I'm sure someone will mention one but whatever.

... Extreme Speed is not broken "in a lot of OMs". It's not broken in any OMs I can think of. It's reliably good, with the right set of qualities to fairly frequently push a given Pokemon into brokenness.

But hey, that exactly describes Dragonite ("The right set of qualities to be frequently pushed into brokenness, without being broken at base"), whom has been banned from

-Hidden Type, on the basis of the fact that Dragon/Flying/Steel type with Multiscale, Dragon Dance, Iron Head for anti-Fairy coverage was a goddamn nightmare. Extreme Speed didn't even factor into the ban.

-Singlehandedly caused the Aerilate ban in AAA. (Which makes literally zero sense, but whatever)

-Metagamiate.

-Mix and Mega.

(I wouldn't be surprised if there's others I'm unaware of/have forgotten)

and yet in Standard and many other OMs Dragonite is merely very good, or sufficiently underwhelming compared to the newly bolstered competition that it sees little use. It's not a particularly notable Pokemon in STABmons, for instance, because STABmons is just not set up to boost it to anywhere near the degree it boosts other Pokemon: in practice it basically only cares about gaining Dragon Ascent, which just isn't an amazing boost to it.

Frequently leads to bans in OMs =/= broken. Context matters.

 

[Jajoken]

.. Extreme Speed is not broken "in a lot of OMs". It's not broken in any OMs I can think of. It's reliably good, with the right set of qualities to fairly frequently push a given Pokemon into brokenness.

But hey, that exactly describes Dragonite ("The right set of qualities to be frequently pushed into brokenness, without being broken at base"), whom has been banned from

-Hidden Type, on the basis of the fact that Dragon/Flying/Steel type with Multiscale, Dragon Dance, Iron Head for anti-Fairy coverage was a goddamn nightmare. Extreme Speed didn't even factor into the ban.

-Singlehandedly caused the Aerilate ban in AAA. (Which makes literally zero sense, but whatever)

-Metagamiate.

-Mix and Mega.

(I wouldn't be surprised if there's others I'm unaware of/have forgotten)

and yet in Standard and many other OMs Dragonite is merely very good, or sufficiently underwhelming compared to the newly bolstered competition that it sees little use. It's not a particularly notable Pokemon in STABmons, for instance, because STABmons is just not set up to boost it to anywhere near the degree it boosts other Pokemon: in practice it basically only cares about gaining Dragon Ascent, which just isn't an amazing boost to it.

Frequently leads to bans in OMs =/= broken. Context matters.

Sorry, what I really meant is "Extremespeed breaks a lot of OMs", when its seen in contexts other than it is in standard (new users, abilities, stats, typing). Obviously Extremespeed isn't broken in itself, that's why the only users in standard that become broken with it are Arceus and Rayquaza -- both of which have bigger problems and would obviously be banned regardless. Basically we're making the same point, I just phrased it poorly.

 

[jacksoras]

Here are three teams I used extremely effectively on the ngg ladder to top it with three different alts!

Hide

Ok now as No Guard Galaxy wraps up its time on the ladder I thought I would post three teams that have helped me get into the top three spots on ladder with the different alts and top the ladder with two of them.

1) Zard-y sand

This is perhaps my favourite NGG team, and although it was the last out of the three teams that I built I didn't actually lose a game with it. Sky plate tornadus-therian is perhaps my favourite set in NGG, hitting with ridiculous power, almost as powerful as LO and with no recoil, it becomes extremely spammable. Tornadus-therian along with zard-y perform a formidable wall breaking duo, both with extremely powerful, spammable stabs. Scarf Keldeo is an awesome cleaner, with modest scarf still hitting extremely hard, and once tornadus-theiran and zard have smashed around the opposing team keldeo or excadrill will clean, with exca being jolly to out speed opposing sand excadrills. Celebi serves as an awesome glue, absorbing water hits, especially keldeo and being able to pass nasty plots to make torn and zard even more scary. This team is what i used on jumpkickmiss8 which I went 25-0 till and lost once on that alt using my mega sciz team.

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Inferno
- Roost
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 Spe
Impish Nature
- Pursuit
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Crunch

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Blast
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 152 SpD / 108 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
- Baton Pass
- Energy Ball

Tornadus-Therian @ Sky Plate
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Focus Blast


2) mega scizor offence

This team was originally sub dynamic punch mega meta > mega sciz, but once dynamic punch was banned and there was a huge surge of scarf durant then defensive mega sciz seemed like a better op. Although it doesn't necessarily recieve a boost, at +2 sciz can run through teams and provides an awesome check to some offensive threats. LO torn-t, specs keldeo and scarf raikou together can dismantle teams with ease, covering eachothers checks and counters and destroying bulky walls which allow mega sciz to sweep broken down teams. Bulky rocks chomp seemed like a suitable option and whimsicott is a bandaid check to quite a few metagame threats and provides useful sleep. This team was the first team I built, and was best in the early meta before mega sceptile became extremely common, which is quite a threat to this team with sleep, but it would still perform well. This was the team i used topped the ladder with on the alt jumpkickmis which has 44-5 wins to losses.


Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Rush
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Focus Blast

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Focus Blast
- Scald

Raikou @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
Rash Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- U-turn
- Grass Whistle
- Moonblast



3) venutran balance ft. Sp.def Zapdos

This team was originally LO dynamic punch weavile > mamo and LO durant > scarf durant but once dpunch was banned and people started using specs raikou I needed to add mamo and change durant to scarf. Two scarfers form a really good offensive core as they can constantly pressure opposing teams and can revenge set-up sweepers. Sp.def zapdos is awesome as it is a reliable counter to tornadus therian who imo is the best mon in the whole tier. Grass whistle venu is really nice and tran has important resistances for the team. This team is a really solid balance squad and helped me top the ladder just with jumpkickmiss2 that helped me get 53-7.


Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Whistle
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind
- Focus Blast

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Defog

Durant @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 28 Atk / 168 SpA / 60 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
- Magma Storm
- Stealth Rock

[hide/]

 

[TheFilthiestCasual]

One of the main ones is that honestly part of X's problem is that Y exists and is plenty amazing too, and the things that are a valid switchin on one of them are generally a terrible idea to switch in on the other. Charizard would still be a nightmare if you banned Dragon Rush.

But Y exists and is plenty amazing in standard OU. So what aside from the addition of Dragon Rush makes X the unstoppable juggernaut that you claim it to be in NGG? Certainly not the increase accuracy of Stone Edge and Head Smash, the increase prevalence of sleep and paralysis, and the overall more offensive nature of the metagame. Seems to me that without Dragon Rush, Charizard X's job would actually be harder in NGG than in OU.

Mega Charizard X's dominance is implicitly keeping other Megas out of the meta, because it's hard to argue for, say, Mega Altaria running Sing on your team, when you could run Mega Charizard X and be vastly more threatening.

I think you're overstating how ubiquitous of a threat Mega Charizard X poses. Mega Charizard X isn't more threatening than other megas against every team. My team has never struggled to deal with Zard X, but has gotten its ass kicked by Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, and Mega Sceptile. And while Mega Altaria doesn't tend to be an offensive threat to my team, its utility with Sing has made it more effective than Charizard X in my experience.

The answers to Mega Charizard X aren't niche gimmicks. Whimsicott and offensive scarfers are everywhere. Teams without these would struggle with Zard X, sure, but I'm having a hard time seeing how they wouldn't struggle with plenty of other threats in the metagame. But anyway, even if I don't personally agree with a Charizard X ban, with this amount of controversy over it, it probably does make sense to suspect it.

 

[Ghoul King]

But Y exists and is plenty amazing in standard OU. So what aside from the addition of Dragon Rush makes X the unstoppable juggernaut that you claim it to be in NGG? Certainly not the increase accuracy of Stone Edge and Head Smash, the increase prevalence of sleep and paralysis, and the overall more offensive nature of the metagame. Seems to me that without Dragon Rush, Charizard X's job would actually be harder in NGG than in OU.

In OU Y doesn't throw out an auto-Burn 100 BP sun-boosted move that will never ever miss, nor can it actually count on Focus Blast. (Focus Blast hitting twice in a row is about a 40% chance of happening) In NGG it trades away a tiny amount of firepower -less than 10%, so less than damage variance- to guarantee that anything Burnable gets Burned. This dramatically lowers the number of switch-ins that are reasonably reliable to bring in -Assault Vest Goodra, for instance, is something that laughs at Mega Charizard Y in Standard and can switch into it repeatedly, even if hazards are up, but in NGG the damage it's taking goes up about 50% just on the switch-in, compared to Fire Blast (Assuming it doesn't miss, and admittedly also assuming it doesn't get its 10% Burn chance), and then every time it comes back in it has to lose another 12.5% of its health aside from any damage done by attacks. (Not that Assault Vest Goodra is safe to switch into X either, but that's honestly beside the point)

And, again, banning Dragon Rush has problems. Banning a move that is not, itself, broken is getting into a slippery slope: if we can ban Dragon Rush because it breaks Mega Charizard X in specific, does that mean we can ban Focus Blast and unban Landorus-Incarnate? After all, only a handful of Pokemon really like to use Focus Blast. Do we ban Return/Frustration and unban Mega Salamence/Mega Kangaskhan? At what point do we say "no, you can't ban a move, you just ban the abusers"?

And what about when it's the intersection of qualities that make a Pokemon too good? Dragonite goes over the edge in multiple OMs because it has a high BST distributed well, an excellent movepool on several levels, an amazing Ability, and a sub-optimal but overall good typing. If Dragonite is broken in an OM, why do we say the new feature is what makes it broken and needs to be banned, and not some other feature, like its existing access to Multiscale?

After all, Mega Charizard X wouldn't be remotely broken if it didn't have Dragon Dance. It would still be useful, but not nearly so threatening. Why should we ban Dragon Rush to keep Mega Charizard X in the meta when Dragon Dance is a key part of the problem? What makes Dragon Rush banworthy, and not Dragon Dance? Dragon Rush is just a 25% increase in damage on one move and picking up a Flinch chance, compared against running Dragon Claw. Dragon Dance, when used, is a 50% increase in damage on all its moves that also lets it outspeed most of the metagame. Dragon Dance is clearly the bigger contributor to it becoming broken.

Looking at it from the perspective of "well, this is the difference from OU, so we ban the difference" doesn't make sense, either. This is not OU. This is NGG. We use OU as the base to ease the transition for players coming from OU, not because OU is some ideal all OMs should strive to remain as close to as possible. Decisions should be optimized for NGG, not for keeping NGG OU-like.

I think you're overstating how ubiquitous of a threat Mega Charizard X poses. Mega Charizard X isn't more threatening than other megas against every team. My team has never struggled to deal with Zard X, but has gotten its ass kicked by Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, and Mega Sceptile. And while Mega Altaria doesn't tend to be an offensive threat to my team, its utility with Sing has made it more effective than Charizard X in my experience.

The answers to Mega Charizard X aren't niche gimmicks. Whimsicott and offensive scarfers are everywhere. Teams without these would struggle with Zard X, sure, but I'm having a hard time seeing how they wouldn't struggle with plenty of other threats in the metagame. But anyway, even if I don't personally agree with a Charizard X ban, with this amount of controversy over it, it probably does make sense to suspect it.

... offensive Scarfers that have at least base 100 and can hit Mega Charizard X for excellent damage are everywhere? Yeah, Durant is popular and it's not unusual for it to be Scarfed, but that's really about it. Scarfed Raikou is also good and can clear the way for other Pokemon with Zap Cannon, but barring luck you're basically sacrificing Raikou to stop Mega Charizard X's sweep.

Terrakion, Aerodactyl, Archeops, Latios, Latias, Noivern, Garchomp, and Dugtrio are the only NGG-legal Pokemon that can achieve STAB super effective attacks while outspeeding +1 Mega Charizard X by virtue of being Scarfed. Archeops and Dugtrio are jokes. Aerodactyl is not something I've seen in NGG, gets little out of NGG, and Scarfing it is basically something you'd only do for the express purpose of countering Mega Charizard X. It's also afraid of switching into an Inferno. Terrakion is afraid of switching into an Inferno from Y, and isn't common in NGG anyway -all it really gets out of it is that Stone Edge won't miss. (Which is nice, but not amazing) Scarf Garchomp... actually happens and isn't terrible, fair enough. I have never seen Scarf Latios or Latias and they get little out of the meta regardless. (To be fair, they get Trick, but the meta is sufficiently offensively slanted that Trick Scarf isn't that good, and if you're here to counter X you can't Trick it away until after X is dead, making Trick Scarf even worse) Scarf Noivern can run Switcheroo, but I've never seen Noivern in NGG and can't imagine a reason to want to run it beyond wanting to use it as a Scarf Draco Meteor nuke against Mega Charizard X, which is getting into overcentralization.

Whimsicott peaked in popularity somewhere around the two week mark and has become increasingly rare on teams. It's neat, but it's not very good, and people seem to be increasingly convinced it's not worth running it over something, you know, actually good.

If your Scarfer can't one-shot Mega Charizard X -and if it's not STAB super effective, it very probably can't- then you need either another Scarfer or priority to finish off Mega Charizard X. Oh, and you had to sacrifice something in the process, the end, if you couldn't one shot it.

This is starting to sound like the scenario that got Deoxys-Attack/Normal banned from OU, where it was practically guaranteed to land at least 1-2 KOs before it went down... only here we're demanding you have a minimum of a third of your team specifically prepared for Mega Charizard X alone with an expectation that if they're not one of a handful of Pokemon you will still lose at least one Pokemon in the process.

Oh, and if you ever lose one of your Scarfs/priority Pokemon needed to deal with Mega Charizard X, you've probably lost the match right there if your opponent isn't literally brain-damaged.

On top of all that, your Scarves will merely force Mega Charizard X to switch out, which it can tolerate reasonably well thanks to the increased ease of running Roost. A Scarfer that isn't, like, Tornadus-Therian or Mienshao is really easy to wear down through repeated switches, attacking them on the way in, etc, and Tornadus-Therian hates Stealth Rock. Since your Scarves are just not going to hit that hard, it's not actually all that easy to force Mega Charizard X's team into a position of "if you don't switch Mega Charizard X, it dies, and if you do switch it, you're probably going to lose something". In fact, I think Scarf Garchomp is the only thing that can outspeed and OHKO Mega Charizard X and potentially kill Skarmory if it tries to switch in (Fire Blast) while not being a Special attacker that hates Chansey. (Again: if a Lati Tricks its Scarf onto Chansey, it's no longer a counter to Mega Charizard X, and Scarf Lati is not a threat to Chansey otherwise)

 

[Sorson]

This may sound stupid but how do you play thisI can't seem to find it under formats

 

[EV]

This may sound stupid but how do you play thisI can't seem to find it under formats

It was a featured ladder for a month but it's no longer playable. You can challenge someone to a match using Balanced Hackmons, however, and set all the abilities to No Guard.

 

[Akumeoy]

It was a featured ladder for a month but it's no longer playable. You can challenge someone to a match using Balanced Hackmons, however, and set all the abilities to No Guard.

Except that's not really the same thing, since No Guard applies always on top of all other abilities. You can play it on the Aqua server, provided you can find an opponent (or bring your own).

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

It was a featured ladder for a month but it's no longer playable. You can challenge someone to a match using Balanced Hackmons, however, and set all the abilities to No Guard.

What Ak said, plus Ability Clause in BH would prevent this :/