np: Doubles Stage 2.5 - Go to Sleep (Suspect Discussion)

[Anty]

I know that a lot of people disagree with me, but i have never found MK at all threatening. It might just be from my team building, which brings up a point. I didnt think too much about MK but yet nearly all my team can check/counter (depending on a speed tie), and all of my mons are in the top 20 usage but still have decent synergy (i know usage arguments are bad, but im saying that MK doesnt has common useful counters, so dont mention lando in bw). You just need to think a bit about putting a poke in that checks kanga, it doesnt 'restrict' teambuilding, yes you use a slot for terrakion, but you also get utility in quick guard and a strong spread move. The counters/checks are common, they dont put a massive restrain your team too much and their positive traits are much better than there negative ones and can check other common threats (e.g. lando-t counters kanga and can revendge yzard).

There are other legit arguments about mk, but you cannot say it doesnt have enough usable counters/checks

 

[Laga]

I don't think that having checks and a small amount of counters is solid grounds for an anti-ban argument.

We've seen plenty of mons from OU that could very well be checked or even countered, but there was just so little risk of using them. A prime example would be Genesect. Genesect was completely walled to death in Gen 5 by Heatran, Jellicent, and even well checked by the super common Choice Scarf Terrakion (which could switch in on a hit from scarf steelbug), and it was even better kept in check in Gen 6 with the rising of Aegislash and similar use of Heatran. Despite this, the combination of ridiculous offensive coverage, Download, and STAB U-Turn made Genesect "too much".

This is what I think could make Mega Kangaskhan broken. In Singles, Genesect had the above traits to push it to ubers, and in Doubles now, Kangaskhan has the combination of great bulk, a free 1.5 boost to every single move with no drawback, and a Speed tier that everyone pays attention to (neutral base 100).

I'd say Kangaskhan in XY Doubles is similar to XY OU Genesect, and people thought that it was overcentralizing.

Kangaskhan
- threatens a lot of Pokemon for OHKOs
- Solid attack stat with ability to boost it
- hard to switch into (PuP or just Return)
- good bulk

Genesect
- threatens a lot of Pokemon for OHKOs
- Solid attacking stats with ability to boost them
- hard to switch into (U-turn)
- good defensive typing

 

[Stratos]

are you kidding me right now laga? did you really just make that comparison?

here ill draw up a chart of the differences between the two:

Genesect:
-Can threaten an OHKO on probably 2/3 of any given team, then deal 40% damage to a resist and bring out a Pokemon that has an advantageous matchup, therefore basically 100% of the time swinging momentum in your favor just by being on the field, and becoming impossible to actually switch its checks into because you risk racking up hazards while throwing away momentum.

kangaskhan:
-can't do that

 

[BlankZero]

are you kidding me right now laga? did you really just make that comparison?

here ill draw up a chart of the differences between the two:

Genesect:
-Can threaten an OHKO on probably 2/3 of any given team, then deal 40% damage to a resist and bring out a Pokemon that has an advantageous matchup, therefore basically 100% of the time swinging momentum in your favor just by being on the field, and becoming impossible to actually switch its checks into because you risk racking up hazards while throwing away momentum.

kangaskhan:
-can't do that

it literally doesn't switch and that's the only difference.

plus, Kanga does MORE DAMAGE than Genesect in almost all cases (ebelt the exception), and has a less resisted STAB, plus can boost while doing damage.

 

[Electrolyte]

lol @ Pwnemon's post

We shouldn't oversell Mega Kangaskhan's bulk, though. It has solid 105 / 100 / 100 defenses which are above average, but the typing makes the bulk more than the stats, especially since more and more people are migrating from 252 HP to 252 Spe in order to trump each other's Mega K's. The fact that it lacks usable resistances only makes it harder for Mega K to contribute to a team's general bulk. (It's immune to Ghosts but the condition is also mutual and Mega K can't do jack shit to Ghost-types) Mega K is only ever bulky when it's out on the field; you rarely ever switch it into attacks because it can't take them easily like other Mega Pokemon, which have resists to lean back onto. Its lack of recovery also shits on any dreams of bulk that it can ever have.

You never put Mega K onto a team because "it's bulky too!" You put it on a team purely for its power and nothing else, unlike other Mega Pokemon like Mega Mawile, which contributes a much longer list of resistances, or Mega Gyarados, which initially even has Intimidate. I get that it's powerful, but that's pretty much all that it is, and not much else.

 

[ccst]

Why do some people think Normal hinders MKanga? Having 105 / 100 / 100 bulk, 1 immunity and only 1 weakness IS bulky, and don't forget that she gets a 153 BP move with Return/Frustration, or really 229 BP with PB... Few moves have this much power without drawbacks. These traits back-up well with a base Attack 125 and access to a 60 BP Swords Dance and anti-offensive Sucker Punch. Don't forget that MKanga works both as a supporter, wall-breaker (Power-up Punch), and revenge killer (Sucker Punch). So which viable Pokémon are exactly safe? Which viable Pokémon are true counters to MKanga except Terrakion? I don't understand why we can't have Lugia legal then? Doesn't Lugia has his counters too? This is basically your logic when defending MKanga so please back up with some actually calcs rather than "I-used-her-and-she-wasn't-that-OP/great-as-everyone-said-she-was"-logic. Although not doing any calcs myself there are some useful calcs provided in previous posts.

@ Electrolyte: "Mega Kangaskhan is a powerful Pokemon, but if you just reach outside of the list of 'popular' Pokemon, you'll discover a wide variety of counters and alternatives alike." Tell me some viable counters please.

"If MKanga is so good then why don't you use her?" Because by doing so we get a less interesting metagame since it gets over-centralizing, and tbh MKanga really is unfair. There are more threats than just Kanga I want to get rid off, btw (especially Shaymin-Sky), but the big mama needs gone now! 3:

Edit: I've edited some flaws in my post.

 

[Electrolyte]

Things that counter / check Mega Kangaskhan:

Ghost-types with support moves (Substitute, status, things like Encore) can wall Mega K all day. Substitute in general works great with faster Pokemon, taking advantage of the fact that the second hit is only half as powerful as the one breaking the Sub.

Basically anything with WoW. This includes Talonflame if you want offense, Rotom-W, Chandelure, Jellicent, Trevenant, Gourgeist, even WoW Heatran for pete's sake. Scalders work too; physically defensive Politoed is a fair check, as is physically defensive Suicune.

Terrakion and other Intimidate Fighting-types work well; Terrakion can even be switched in vs PuP, so don't tell me it can't. Intimidate Mega Mawile works wonders, too. Conkeldurr can sponge a Return, heal itself with DPunch, sponge an SPunch easily, and KO with Mach Punch.

Faster Pokemon that resist / can sponge a Sucker Punch can check Mega K. Mega Pinsir accomplishes this quite easily. Trick Room also works; most people run 252+ Speed now so the list of slower Dark-resists is massive, or you can put it to Sleep



Also, Mega Kang doesn't sit on a throne of power. Mega Pinsir's Return is nearly as powerful and hits a wide variety of things super effectively, achieving greater amounts of damage with a much higher Attack and Speed stat. Mega Mawile's Play Rough is a lot more powerful than Mega K's Return, Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch is stronger than Mega K's, Mega Mawile has better bulk due to resistances, and Mega Mawile is a lot more powerful than Mega K when paired with TR. Mega Charizard's Fire Blast in the Sun is a lot more powerful than Mega K's Return, and its Heat Wave does the same amount of damage, except to two opponents. Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice is almost as powerful but is also spread, therefore doubling its damage output. Just because Mega K hits fairly hard, has priority, moderate bulk, and the ability to boost doesn't make it broken, especially when most other common Mega Pokemon can accomplish the exact same things.

 

[Stratos]

@ Electrolyte: "Mega Kangaskhan is a powerful Pokemon, but if you just reach outside of the list of 'popular' Pokemon, you'll discover a wide variety of counters and alternatives alike." Tell me some viable counters please.

Terrakion
Keldeo
Scrafty
Hitmontop
Scizor
Mawile
Chandelure
Jellicent
Gengar
Gourgeist
Jirachi
Klefki
Aegislash
Sableye

these are fairly hard counters

Landorus-T
Thundurus
Gyarados
Pinsir
Rotom-W
Rotom-H
Talonflame
Keldeo
Amoonguss
Venusaur
Breloom
Charizard
Suicune
Liepard
Heracross
Conkeldurr

These either revenge kanga or kanga cant switch in on

 

[BlankZero]

Terrakion*
Keldeo*
Hitmontop (Intim but can still die to Return and is slower)
Chandelure (Only if Sub and only then if Kanga doesn't have Crunch)
Jellicent*
Gengar (see Chandy)
Gourgeist*
Jirachi (iffy. Can only redirect and is neutral to Pup and weak to Sucker)
Klefki (iffy)
Aegislash*
Sableye*
Landorus-T (only has Intim)
Thundurus (lolReturn)
Gyarados (see Lando)
Rotom-W*
Rotom-H*
Talonflame (gets rekt by Return)
Amoonguss (can Spore...and that's it)
Venusaur (only Mega can really "deal" with it)
Breloom (better than Amoongus, but frail and Sash is useless. Pretty sure Mach Punch doesn't OHKO from full even on 4 HP)
Charizard (lolReturn)
Suicune (Scald I guess? And bulky)
Liepard (he said Viable :p)
Heracross (speed concerns)
Conkeldurr*

So I took Pwne's list and made some notes. An Asterisk is an agreement. The rest have notes if they can be considered checks. I outright deleted a few though that weren't checks so much as not weak to it overall (Scizor is not a check :/).

 

[Arcticblast]

Terrakion*
Keldeo*
Hitmontop (Intim but can still die to Return and is slower)
Chandelure (Only if Sub and only then if Kanga doesn't have Crunch)
Jellicent*
Gengar (see Chandy)
Gourgeist*
Jirachi (iffy. Can only redirect and is neutral to Pup and weak to Sucker)
Klefki (iffy)
Aegislash*
Sableye*
Landorus-T (only has Intim)
Thundurus (lolReturn)
Gyarados (see Lando)
Rotom-W*
Rotom-H*
Talonflame (gets rekt by Return)
Amoonguss (can Spore...and that's it)
Venusaur (only Mega can really "deal" with it)
Breloom (better than Amoongus, but frail and Sash is useless. Pretty sure Mach Punch doesn't OHKO from full even on 4 HP)
Charizard (lolReturn)
Suicune (Scald I guess? And bulky)
Liepard (he said Viable :p)
Heracross (speed concerns)
Conkeldurr*

So I took Pwne's list and made some notes. An Asterisk is an agreement. The rest have notes if they can be considered checks. I outright deleted a few though that weren't checks so much as not weak to it overall (Scizor is not a check :/).

I think you missed the "These either revenge kanga or kanga cant switch in on" part.

With that, I will provide an explanation for every Pokemon on Pwnemon's list, commenting on your comments where necessary:

fairly hard counters

Terrakion*
Keldeo*
Scrafty - I don't know why you removed this; it's an Intimidate user that has super effective STAB against Kangaskhan. It doesn't hit as hard as Hitmontop obviously (beyond lol HJK) and being weak to Power-Up Punch is honestly only a valid concern against Sub users weak to Fighting...
Hitmontop* - see above p much
Scizor - you also removed this when it actually does a pretty good job at checking Kangaskhan, albeit primarily the Mega form. That isn't even KOd by +2 Sucker Punch (+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) - but lol 0/0 Mega Scizor) and hits back hard with Adamant Bug Bite - SD sets are an even tougher nut to crack. Superpower from either form also deals a fuckload of damage
Mawile - exactly what the hell is Kangaskhan doing to Mawile? 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 279-328 (67.3 - 79.2%)
Chandelure - WoW Chand is actually legit; granted its main use is to beat Mega Kangaskhan, it also deals with a lot of other things like Mawile, Hitmontop, and even Bisharp with max Speed investment.
Jellicent*
Gengar* - MEGA GENGAR IS MORE BROKEN THAN MEGA KANGASKHAN EVER MIGHT HAVE BEEN. THERE I SAID IT. Seriously there is like no situation where standard Kangaskhan beats Mega Gengar
Gourgeist*
Jirachi* - Power-Up Punch is still weak as piss, and even if PuP combined with +2 Return KOs it's still done its job of sponging hits and its partner probably crippled or killed it. TWave is also a bitch but let's not get into that since it's not really standard. Agreed it's a bit iffy though.
Klefki - muh keys (Prankster TWave + Reflect works but also iffy)
Aegislash*
Sableye*

either revenge kill Kangaskhan or prevent it from safely switching in (or other Intimidate users)

Landorus-T - Intimidate, can almost OHKO with Superpower (before you say "IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO OHKO" keep in mind this is without STAB), and Kangaskhan won't like taking Earthquakes
Thundurus - Mostly a mind games thing - offensive can deal pretty heavy damage and defensive can Thunder Wave. Figuring out which it is will be necessary, also can't really switch in
Gyarados - Intimidate, Mega DD Gyara sets up on -1 Kangaskhan and then you have a major problem on your hands - good check
Pinsir - revenges a weakened Khan after Mega Evolution, everything besides Feint deals heavy damage - can't switch in
Rotom-W* - WoW
Rotom-H* - also WoW
Talonflame - often carries WoW to be more of a team player, also priority Brave Bird deals a ton - good check
Keldeo - lol listed in both sections
Amoonguss - redirects Sucker Punch, can usually tank a Return and Spore (I wish Rocky Helmet caught on ;_;)
Venusaur - agreed with Blank
Breloom - Mach Punch doesn't OHKO sure, but Kangaskhan isn't exactly getting that HP back
Charizard - implying anything can switch in on either Mega Charizard
Suicune - muh Scald
Liepard - skill
Heracross* - "speed concerns" doesn't matter when you have solid bulk and you pretty much OHKO everything in the game except Aegislash and Granbull...
Conkeldurr* - tanks a Return and fucking murders

Despite being a council member I think I'll hold off on writing a tl;dr post on Mega Kangaskhan. I've made my "it's not broken" view clear through this post, a bunch of likes, and IRC.

I'd personally rather test Mega Gengar first, but you guys are almost forcing our hand on this one ugh

 

[Laga]

are you kidding me right now laga? did you really just make that comparison?

here ill draw up a chart of the differences between the two:

Genesect:
-Can threaten an OHKO on probably 2/3 of any given team, then deal 40% damage to a resist and bring out a Pokemon that has an advantageous matchup, therefore basically 100% of the time swinging momentum in your favor just by being on the field, and becoming impossible to actually switch its checks into because you risk racking up hazards while throwing away momentum.

kangaskhan:
-can't do that

Yo man I know you have problems with getting super mad in discussing literally everything, but don't pull the are you kidding me here - that shit's for irc

and yes, they are pretty similar in threat level; U-turn racks up hazards on both sides if your opponent was smart enough to do something the turn(s) you spent on putting up hazards. Kangaskhan threatens with immense power enough to 2HKO pretty much 5/6 mons on most teams with return or pup + return (and probably OHKO one or two of them). So yeah one attacks and switches out and the other stays in and attacks, they both pose a humungous offensive threat.

The problem with Kangaskhan's "counters" are that most of the mons on Pwne / Ablast's list are kinda 2HKOd on the switch. The only safe shot at completely shutting Kangaskhan down (on the switch too) are Sub / WoW Ghost-types... Which are pretty much limited to Aegislash*, Mega Gengar*, Gourgeist and Chandelure (I have seen a grand total of one Jellicent in the entirety of XY Doubles, so I say this with the mindset of Jellicent "not being a thing") - Even Terrakion is beat with a neutral PuP / Sucker Punch on the switch-in.

*= doesn't always run Sub or WoW

What makes Kangaskhan so overwhelming is that no matter how much you go out of your way to beat it, it will certainly get at least one KO if you can play it right, and that kinda removes your opponent's ability to defeat it through switching around it properly like you can with literally every single other Pokemon in the game (except Skymin, but Skymin doesn't have priority, which makes it harder for Skymin)

Note to all you guys that think Normal-type is a bad thing for Kangaskhan because it "doesn't add to ur team's defensive synergy": literally the only Mega Pokemon meant to be bulky are Mega Venusaur and Mega Mawile. ALL the other usable ones don't give a shit about their defensive typings, so neither should you. I'd say you should be pretty grateful that Kangaskhan isn't Grass / Ice typing, because that's where you get to start calling a defensive typing shitty.

 

[Pocket]

To me, Kangaskhan is more like Kyurem-B back in BW2 OU Singles - it has a buttload of offensive presence on top of useful bulk, but the metagame still adapted fine without much sacrifices, if any. I already expressed my views about the Genesect analogy in the previous page.

I disagree with your last point. Mega Scizor is used for its much improved bulk as well as power boost, and I can say the same for Mega Tyranitar, Mega Garchomp, and even Mega Gengar as well. Mega Abomasnow's typing is not that bad as you make it out to be - it cockblocks most Electric-types and handful of Water-types (Politoed, Ludicolo, Gyarados w/o Stone Edge). Went off a tangent here, but Kanga indeed does not add much to the team's defensive synergy, although it's certainly no Deoxys-A / Talonflame.

One good thing about its typing is that it's relatively easy to patch up its sole typing weakness to Fighting with Doubles heroes like Togekiss, Amoonguss, Landorus-T, Talonflame, Azumarill, etc.

 

[ccst]

-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Scrafty: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Scrafty: 235-279 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 210-248 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 150-176 (36.2 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 150-176 (42.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Scrafty overrated "counter" because of less Speed etc. No Attack-boosting item where used since most make him bulky (Assault Vest comes to mind) and the good thing is Scrafty recovers some health in the process but overall I'd say he might work as a slight check but not as a counter.

@ Pwnemon: I see some flaws in your post I honestly don't know how some of the Pokémon (especially the bulky ones like Venusaur and Suicune; revenge/switch part) are "fairly hard counters" (e.g. Scrafty) or "revenge kanga or kanga cant switch in on". Some calcs would definitely help because I'm not convinced even if I can see the point you're trying to make.

I also am having a hard time imagining why a good MKanga user would let their Mega stay in on predictable Will-o-Wispers and the like. Remember that Fighting-type Pokémon are much easier to control this gen, and Kanga likes to switch due to shrugging off the Intimidate and getting another chance to Fake Out, but it all comes down to predictions in the end. Nevertheless, don't take for granted MKanga cannot switch and the pressure she puts on the opposing team when doing so.

 

[Darkmalice]

Regarding the Normal-type of Mega Kang, it's good and bad. It's bad in the sense that it gives Mega Kang no extra switch-ins (mega Kang should not be switching into ghost-types), and this makes it harder for teams that want to gather as many resistances as possible. It's good in the sense that once Mega Kang is on the field, it's hard to hit it super-effectively. This can actually be compared to Malamar, who has few weaknesses that aren't that common, but no resistances and one not that common immunity outside Cress - it is actually fairly good at setting up TR after a KO. However, Mega Kang is great and Malamar is awful.

This is Doubles. You have two Pokemon to check things. Mega Kang can deal a lot of damage, but it's not going to if its target uses Protect, effectively wasting a turn enabling its partner to use a move that can get the upper hand, like Scrafty landing that Drain Punch. With no spread moves, there is more pressure to predict right. And that's on top of switching out up to two Pokemon onto the field. You have more options to check Mega Kang - can switch in an Intimidate Pokemon to give one of your Pokemon already on the field the advantage against Mega Kang, can switch in two Intimidate users at once, can switch in a check instead of a Pokemon that won't be targeted by Mega Kang (or Sucker Punch) etc. The fact that Mega Kang often doesn't have room for Protect makes it a lot easier to play around - you are forced to switch out to avoid attacks, unlike Terrakion for example, who can stall with Protect and Substitute till the time is right and also has the option of switching out if need be. All of this makes it easier for Mega Kang's checks to actually work against Mega Kang. Of course it works two ways, for example, pairing Mega Kang with partners to help solve its issues like Follow Me Togekiss to redirect Fighting-type attacks, but in general, considering Mega Kang's ridiculous strength, it is easier to play around it than the other way round. If it wasn't, like in singles, than it would be broken, but that is not the case.

I'd personally rather test Mega Gengar first, but you guys are almost forcing our hand on this one ugh

I'm curious as to this. I haven't heard someone complain about Mega Gengar in Doubles other than PerishTrap. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Laga]

Of course it works two ways, for example, pairing Mega Kang with partners to help solve its issues like Follow Me Togekiss to redirect Fighting-type attacks, but in general, considering Mega Kang's ridiculous strength, it is easier to play around it than the other way round. If it wasn't, like in singles, than it would be broken, but that is not the case.

I see what you're getting at, but this just isn't true in my eyes. I can't deny an opinion, but I definitely don't share this. Since it only has one weakness, Fighting-type attacks are so ridiculously obvious and extremely easy to pack resists to, so if you see a Fighting-type attack coming, you can just FM / RP with a togekiss or amoonguss or maybe even switch into your talonflame to swap the momentum into your favour. What I'm trying to say is that opposing Fighting-types and Ghost types are much easier to play around for the Kangaskhan user than Kangaskhan is for the opponent. This is of course an opinion, but I see this as almost cold fact, considering how many common Pokemon resist Fighting-type attacks, and how easy WoW is to switch into.

I'd by far say the easiest way to "play around Kangaskhan" is to double target it, but that kinda requires you to have two fast mons out at the same time; this makes slower teams less effective against it.

I'm curious as to this. I haven't heard someone complain about Mega Gengar in Doubles other than PerishTrap. I'm genuinely curious.

Also this is very much something I agree with, I have never experienced Mega Gengar the least bit broken Arcticblast ?_?

 

[Pocket]

Kangaskhan doesn't have the ability Wonder Guard, so you don't need a Fighting-type to take it down... a strong spread move from Charizard Y / Sylveon / Mega TTar / Mega Abomasnow / Mega Garchomp / Kingdra / Heatran can wear down Kangaskhan despite Follow Me. Without Follow Me on the field (and Kangaskhan usually lacks Protect to stall out a turn for you to bring it in), then Fighting-type moves and other single-targeting moves like Will-O-Wisp or Mawile's Play Rough are gonna bang it up hard.

Also this is very much something I agree with, I have never experienced Mega Gengar the least bit broken Arcticblast ?_?

You guys obviously haven't faced R Inanimate's based Mega Gengar team enough >_< Not saying it's broken, but Gengar is a lot more screwy than Kangaskhan.

 

[Qazoo306]

How about we just have a suspect test and settle this argument? About half the community is on either side of the line, just like what happened before Sleep Clause testing. Perhaps if we do a true test with seperate ladders (one with and one without Kanga), and actually see what the meta would be like without her, we could stop Theorymonning about it and have some real, definitive data as opposed to our current back and forth.

I honestly don't see why we don't do this. It seems that everyone here is either "Kanga is broken as crap" or "Kanga is not broken as crap". It seems that no amount of arguments for or against Kanga's ban will sway anyone's opinion, so the best way to settle this argument is to just go on and test it
________________________________________________________________________________________________

On the topic of perish trap...
In my doubles circuit round, a Mega-Gengar almost got Champerto the victory in our first battle by stalling with perish song activated. I only won the round out of a lucky crit. How is almost being able to pull a victory out of a situation where you were slightly outplayed and majorly unlucky with only stalling with one pokemon not broken?

 

[champetero]

BTW Pocket don't u mean tony's seattle perish trap team????

 

[Pocket]

No, I am talking about R Inanimate's SPL Team.

 

[Stratos]

This morning, we put up a suspect ladder. This thread has served its purpose. Locking.