np: NU Stage 10 - Blackbird

[Lolk]

How is this problem specific to Marowak? Every single lead faces this issue.

That is why most people don't use dedicated leads. Leading with a Stealth Rock user is bad in general because of all the anti-leads roaming the tier. You might as well start off with Sawk for the same purpose, and it isn't scared away by most special attackers in the tier.

 

[soulgazer]

That is why most people don't use dedicated leads. Leading with a Stealth Rock user is bad in general because of all the anti-leads roaming the tier. You might as well start off with Sawk for the same purpose, and it isn't scared away by most special attackers in the tier.

I totally agree with this. Its so easy to predict their lead most of the time since not a lot of Pokemon can run Stealth Rock effectively.

Also, dedicated leads can be useful in some situations, like on Hyper Offense or Sun, but sometimes they end up being the only Normal- and Flying-type resists on a team which can really bad if the opponent has something like Kangaskhan or Swellow since you'll probably let it die first turns to set up those Stealth Rock. That's why I prefer using reliable Stealth Rock setter like bulky Golem, Piloswine, Seismitoad or Regirock: They provide Stealth Rock AND provide excellent resistance or immunity to your team, making it easier for you to handle some dangerous threats.

 

[elchupo]

That is why most people don't use dedicated leads. Leading with a Stealth Rock user is bad in general because of all the anti-leads roaming the tier. You might as well start off with Sawk for the same purpose, and it isn't scared away by most special attackers in the tier.

Except that that isn't true?

Lead usage for August:
1)Golurk
2)Golem
3)Piloswine
4)Seismitoad
5)Sawk
6)Armaldo
7)Onix
8)Liepard
9)Scolipede
10)Gigalith

I'd argue that 7/10 of those leads are used in that position exclusively to set SR. And only 2 anti-leads.

In my experience, if someone has a Golem or Golurk or Probopass, 8/9 times out of 10 they're going to lead with it provided the opponent hasn't got a Pokemon in the lead position that outright beats them.

And since Team Preview basically dictates that you pull a bait and switch anyway with your lead, this is almost always going to happen.

The only thing that doesn't make most of these Pokemon "dedicated" leads is that they aren't dead weight on a team if they aren't leading, which was already kinda the mark of a good lead anyway.

 

[soulgazer]

Except that that isn't true?

Lead usage for August:
1)Golurk
2)Golem
4)Seismitoad
5)Sawk
6)Armaldo
7)Onix
8)Liepard
9)Scolipede
10)Gigalith

I'd argue that 7/10 of those leads are used in that position exclusively to set SR. And only 2 anti-leads.

1) Golurk
Golurk can also be used to prevent Stealth Rock with Dynamic Punch, which can work 50% of the time I guess.
3)Piloswine
Piloswine has good matchup against some SR setters like Golem and Golurk, so I can see why it is used.
4) Seismitoad
Seismitoad has one of most favorable matchup against most Stealth Rock setters, having STABs that can deal with most of them easily.
5) Sawk
Sawk, we know what it do, Mold Breaker + Close Combat / Taunt can deal with every Stealth Rock setters and some Spikes user.
8) Liepard (far from being the best anti-lead, but it can learn taunt/encore/swagger)
Cat can stop many pokemon from setting up with its monstruous support movepool, as you don't want to be Encore'd on Stealth Rock.

As you can see they are not only used as a lead to set up Stealth Rock, they are used because most of them has a good matchup against most Stealth Rock setters.

 

[Lolk]

Except that that isn't true?

Lead usage for August:
1)Golurk
2)Golem
3)Piloswine
4)Seismitoad
5)Sawk
6)Armaldo
7)Onix
8)Liepard
9)Scolipede
10)Gigalith

I'd argue that 7/10 of those leads are used in that position exclusively to set SR. And only 2 anti-leads.

In my experience, if someone has a Golem or Golurk or Probopass, 8/9 times out of 10 they're going to lead with it provided the opponent hasn't got a Pokemon in the lead position that outright beats them.

And since Team Preview basically dictates that you pull a bait and switch anyway with your lead, this is almost always going to happen.

The only thing that doesn't make most of these Pokemon "dedicated" leads is that they aren't dead weight on a team if they aren't leading, which was already kinda the mark of a good lead anyway.

Pls keep in mind, that is the PS NU ladder, which is imfamous for its "creativity" (screw it, half of the ladderers are stupid). For example, Onix and Gigalith are two almost unviable Pokemon (for a good reason) and they still wound up on the top 10. Getting SR up is very important for almost all teams, but I can guarantee you against any serious competitive player, those mons did not get rocks up successfully (and by successfully, i mean they got rocks up and died, or just died). Out of that list, I would say Seismitoad and Sawk are the best leads currently, and they both handle Marowak well.

 

[elchupo]

Also, what Lolkomori meant was that most people doesn't run Dedicated leads like Custap Berry Golem, Gigalith or lolOnix, not stuff like Seismitoad, Golurk, Bulky Golem, Piloswine, and others.

Yes, but absolutely no where did I mention Dedicated leads.

I feel like this argument is getting tedious already. Marowak can outright beat a lot of common leads, irregardless of whether they are "dedicated" leads, or not. They are still all commonly run in the lead position.

Any "choosing to not run a SR setter against it" or baiting and switching etc, is all conjecture and essentially pointless.

 

[DTC]

Marowak may beat the "common" leads... but the "common" leads aren't necessarily led with very often overall. Golurk, the #1 lead, is only led with 5% of the time of its nearly 20% usage (basically leads only 25% of the time). This diminishes the niche of Marowak destroying the common leads, because they are not much more prevalent than the less common leads. I think this is the point Lolkomori was trying to make. People adapt to the scenario at hand and lead with the Pokemon they think will net them the best advantage at the start, and if they see Marowak, they would be a lot less willing to lead with a Pokemon like Golem, specifically because part of the reason to use Marowak is its ability to beat Pokemon that set up Stealth Rock.

That said, Marowak is a pretty cool Pokemon. It probably deserves more usage as it is pretty hard to wall. The problem is it's slow and not very durable vs a lot of the top threats, especially with the lack of Leftovers which other tank Pokemon appreciate.

 

[termi]

I use either Seismitoad or Piloswine as my SR setter nowadays and I'm way more impressed by Piloswine. His bulk is simply divine and doesn't even have to give up attacking prowess to use it. He hurts a lot of things while being able to easily take a hit on his own and he sets SR in almost any situation (common Taunt users really don't like his STABs; Mandibuzz, Liepard, lolonix, Golbat, Skuntank, et cetera). The best part about him is that he doesn't just set SR, hurts a few things and then dies like Golem tends to do: He can actually just switch out and come back later on to pick off some annoying threats with Ice Shard or scare Skuntank and friends out with a powerful Earthquake. He's just so good at what he does.

Seismitoad is pretty good too due to the fact that many common leads really don't want to take a Scald or an Earthquake to the face, but I find that Seismitoad tends to die more easily. Maybe he's better suited for balance teams than stall teams (although he does pair well with Mandibuzz) or something but I never was quite as impressed with him as I am with Piloswine.

 

[Punchshroom]

So those of you who recognize me know that when I tried to use Shell Smash Carracosta I had...unsatisfactory results. While Metang has decent power and more importantly priority (Golem's Sucker Punch isn't too reliable) for an SR setter, I got tired of using it over and over, so I decided to have Carracosta fill in its shoes. I didn't particularly like the tank set as it still took too much damage from physical threats to my liking, so I tried a fully defensive set....and its bulk astounded me.

Carracosta @ Leftovers
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed / Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald / Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet / Toxic

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 85-102 (24.21 - 29.05%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 150-177 (42.73 - 50.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 267-316 (76.06 - 90.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 153-181 (43.58 - 51.56%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 105-125 (29.91 - 35.61%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 141-168 (40.17 - 47.86%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 132-157 (37.6 - 44.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 160-189 (45.58 - 53.84%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO

Note the bolded calcs: those are STAB (or in Zangooses's case, the equivalent) SE attacks from powerful prominent physical attackers not even 2HKOing Carracosta. While this Carracosta sacrifices its power / ability to hit back hard, it trades it for its ability to take a huge dump on nearly every Normal- and Flying-type in the tier. Tauros? Kangaskhan? Zangoose? No problem! Swellow and even the dangerous AcroBlimp basically become non-issues, using Aqua Jet to snipe through U-turn and Destiny Bond, or Scalding the latter to death instead. That is another selling point for Carracosta: it is one of the few Normal+Flying resists (others being Solrock and lol Corsola) capable of burning opponents, meaning the amount of physical attackers it harasses have increased tenfold, and can make up for its loss in power. It's not like this Carracosta is weak either, STAB Stone Edge can pick up the slack if some power is needed, and is obviously your main KOing weapon. Rock Slide can of course be used instead, but it won't be much more powerful than Scald.

Waterfall is used so that Carracosta can KO Golurk right after with Aqua Jet, but most Golurks tend to reconsider staying in due to either their unexpectedly low damage output with EQ or due to the threat of a burn. Scald is also more effective against Piloswine and Armaldo due to the burn and does more to Torkoal than even Stone Edge. Aqua Jet is mainly used to finish off opponents that survive Costa's attacks (which tends to happen because of little investment), but Toxic can be used to nail bulky threats like Tangela or Seismitoad as well as improving the SubBU Braviary matchup.

 

[scrake]

@HispanicPanic suggested posting this here, which seemed like a good idea. For your consideration:

Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Shell Smash
-Stone Edge
-Hydro Pump
-Hidden Power Grass

Using this mixed set not only does Carracosta more effectively beat checks and obliterate Seismitoad, he also beats Pokemon that would usually laugh at a Specially-based SS sweeper. I feel that this is not only more usable then the standard set, it also manages to not be completely outclassed by Gorebyss by virtue of a powerful STAB Stone Edge. I also like that although this set uses a Speed boosting Nature, it can pretty much deal just as much damage as the normal SS set thanks to Hydro Pump, although the low accuracy may bother some people. The loss of Aqua Jet is also notable.

Normal SS set calcs
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 179-212 (53.75 - 63.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 70-84 (21.02 - 25.22%) -- possible 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 341-402 (68.61 - 80.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 175-208 (43.64 - 51.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mixed SS calcs
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 250-295 (75.07 - 88.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 424-499 (85.31 - 100.4%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 691-816 (172.31 - 203.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Roselia: 368-434 (121.45 - 143.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 402-473 (110.74 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[InsaneDragoniteHD]

@HispanicPanic suggested posting this here, which seemed like a good idea. For your consideration:

Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Shell Smash
-Stone Edge
-Hydro Pump
-Hidden Power Grass

Using this mixed set not only does Carracosta more effectively beat checks and obliterate Seismitoad, he also beats Pokemon that would usually laugh at a Specially-based SS sweeper. I feel that this is not only more usable then the standard set, it also manages to not be completely outclassed by Gorebyss by virtue of a powerful STAB Stone Edge. I also like that although this set uses a Speed boosting Nature, it can pretty much deal just as much damage as the normal SS set thanks to Hydro Pump, although the low accuracy may bother some people. The loss of Aqua Jet is also notable.

Normal SS set calcs
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 179-212 (53.75 - 63.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 70-84 (21.02 - 25.22%) -- possible 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 341-402 (68.61 - 80.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 175-208 (43.64 - 51.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mixed SS calcs
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 250-295 (75.07 - 88.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 424-499 (85.31 - 100.4%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 691-816 (172.31 - 203.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Roselia: 368-434 (121.45 - 143.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 Atk Life Orb Carracosta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 402-473 (110.74 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Judging from these calcs here, mixed Carracosta seems fairly interesting. It could help to break past those physical walls that think they can take on Carracosta without virtually any problems. Although I do see a lot of scarfers still giving him trouble,most notably Jynx, who forces the user to go for Stone Edge and with that shaky accuracy,they might not hit Jynx.(same can be said with Lovely Kiss and I am writing this at 5:30 in the morning,dunno why at all.) I am so used to using normal SS Costa, so I might test this one out for a little fun.

Now as for bad mons that are used on the ladder a lot, Onix would probably have to be one of the worst ones out there imo. He doesn't really provide much over Golem except for his speed stat and to add to it,Onix is not really much of an offensive threat on the field or a defensive one, meaning its pretty much dead weight after it sets up that first layer of SR.

Gigalith, on the other hand, is just a shittier version of Golem,because the two do pretty much the same thing, just Golem has more resistances and also Golem has Sucker Punch and an immunity to electric.(something Gigalith wished it had.) Also,Golem can wall more for a lot longer and he has more an offensive presence and more of a defensive one too. Golem and Regirock offer way more than Gigalith and Onix, as their stats are better, and they are more than dead weight after SR is up on your opponent's side of the field.

Now for creativity on the NU ladder, one thing I have been seeing an abundance of lately is Life Orb Primeape. I dunno why, but it just happens to be used a lot, by a lot of people. I dunno why, I guess its for the boost in power, but Primeape is better as a scarfer,because he can speed tie with Jynx and beat her before she can even lay a Psychic on him.(assuming that you are running the scarf set and not the banded set.) But Life Orb does allow to change moves, so maybe it works alright, I dunno. To add to his, I've seen a guy who put explode on all his mons. Pretty sure it was a joke though.

The NU ladder isn't that great imo, the RU one is so much better, even though there's been worse things on that than on the NU ladder..lol (doing this really early, so I might have made mistakes.)

 

[Blast]

I think the difference between MixCosta and physical Costa is that MixCosta is more of a wallbreaker, whereas standard the standard physical set is more of a sweeper. HP Grass, as shown from your calcs, lets Costa catch a lot of his normal checks off guard and beat them. Unfortunately, when your opponent realizes this, they'll go directly into their Scarfer or w/e to revenge you with no issues. Physical Costa I think is a little less independent; meaning, he relies more on his teammates to have his checks and counters removed and/or weakened. However, if they are able to do this, Costa can sweep pretty smoothly with much less fear of being revenge killed thanks to the addition of Aqua Jet.

Not saying one is better than the other, I'm just pointing out both sets have very different roles.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Now that many scolipede prefer running toxic spikes over coverage on the spikes set for those teams that don't have a poison type, would you consider it essential for an A+ quality team to have a poison type ? Everytime I try to teambuild, I feel my team is really weak to toxic spikes as soon as I don't have one which limits things a lot since 3 of the best poison types fly or levitate (weezing, golbat, haunter) leaving basicaly scolipede, roselia, muk, vileplume, skunk and garbo which bar scolipede are all rather slow. What do you guys think of this ? Have you found any alternative options ? I've even tried scarf seviper to remedy this problem and while it isn't too disappointing, it's far from amazing.

 

[Aasgier]

Arbok exists, but I haven't used it since Stage 8 so I can't really tell how it fares in the current meta.

It however, was really great back then since it could set up on so many things.

 

[Punchshroom]

Toxic Spikes is definitely a force to be reckoned with in NU, between a really fast user in Scolipede and a bulky one in Garbodor (or Roselia if you can find room), if you don't have a Poison-type on your team chances are you'll be suffering way more damage than you'd like with your sweepers and have much more trouble switching around and surviving attacks. Of course it does no one any favors that the Spinners are especially susceptible to Toxic Spikes, so they won't solve your troubles. It's true that grounded Poison-types tend to be on the slow side (bar Scolipede, though he dies really fast) or are really powerful, but they aren't bad in their own right and we are fortunate enough to have a healthy number of viable Poison-types.

That said, the presence of Scolipede as well as the offensive nature of NU made Toxic Spikes much more potent than before as 1) it is easier to set them up, 2) it has become easier to KO the absorbers , and 3) offensive teams make use of this residual damage much more effectively than balanced or even stall who has a trickier time setting up 2 layers.

 

[Leafshield]

I used Swalot for a minute, but I found it fairly meh overall. It wasn't that it was bad, but it was definitely not worth the spot other than it absorbing Toxic Spikes. If it had reliable recovery, it would do much better imo, since Pain Split is unreliable due to Swalot's really good base HP.

Arbok is still super cool in the metagame, it just can't set up on as much stuff. It's got some major 4MSS, since it for sure needs Coil for boosting, Gunk Shot for STAB, and Sucker Punch to pick off Psychic-Type special attackers that immediately threaten it, even after a few turns of setup. The coverage it wants is EQ + Seed Bomb / Aqua Tail to hit Ground- and Steel- Types for SE damage, but he cannot unless he forgoes priority, which is a bummer for a Pokemon who just misses out on the major speed benchmark. Still, he's solid since he can set up all over Grass- Types, which is nice.

 

[Gl4ss]

Anyone else noticed the onslaught of Lopunny/Grumpig/Ditto/Haunter/Liepard/Arbok 5 Tricks + Assist Whirlwind teams? Annoying as all hell to deal with for most teams

 

[Othesemo]

Anyone else noticed the onslaught of Lopunny/Grumpig/Ditto/Haunter/Liepard/Arbok 5 Tricks + Assist Whirlwind teams? Annoying as all hell to deal with for most teams

I've only encountered one. It was an incredibly easy, if boring, win. I sat through 64 obnoxious turns of shuffling, still had a few pokemon left because I only carried SR and most of my mons had leftovers and were either hit neutrally or for half damage by rock type, and proceeded to attack the bastard for game. Unless you're running a particularly hazard weak team and let your opponent's ditto switch in for SR and Spikes, you should be good.

 

[Annoyer]

yea i have to agree toxic spikes are honestly a bitch to deal with and the only really best methods are running like levitate/flying mons or a poison type. this does limit teambuilding a bit but at the same time its not necessary to run a poison type on every team, and even if you do, its not guaranteed that tspikes wont be on your side of the field. however, a lot of the teams i use usually contain a grounded poison-type usually scolipede/skuntank on offense and garbodor/roselia on stall/balance. anyways, this brings me to the discussion on skuntank. i dont really see skuntank used /too often/ but it actually is still really good. can still trap jynx if it doesnt switch on an ice beam which would then come down to predictions and can still take care of stuff like musharna pretty well. skuntank is also a pretty good mandibuzz check because with enough speed, it can outspeed taunt and hope for poison with poison jab and just watch mandi die as foul play does around like 20-25% dmg. a cool set ive been using on skuntank has been taunt + toxic which is really neat for beating stuff like alomomola, mandibuzz, and toxic allows it to nail stuff like regirock or defensive costa which like to switch into skunk repeatedly. skuntank does have a bit of a 4mss sadly but it still has a bunch of sets (altho most are pretty similar) like special, speedy trapper, bulky trapper, taunt + toxic, or even roar. so yea, use the skunk !

 

[Bluwing]

I agree with Annoyer on this one especially when it comes to Skuntank. Skuntank is still a really good trapper and I always tend to try kill Skuntank before sending in my own Jynx which can make revenge killing on really fast pokemon very hard if I don't run a good priority user like Kangaskhan or maby my own Skuntank. As I sees it this is a very good ability, scare off dangerous pokemons especially Jynx as it's incredibly good in this metagame. Also I wanna talk about Toxic Spikes because it's incredibly good in this metagame, the Toxic Spikes absorbers really isn't that hard to get rid off, and especially when you are forcing them to switch in to remove the Toxic Spikes, you can simply gain easy momentum. This in my opinion makes Toxic Spikes to one the best forces to recon with in NU as it also handles Hyper Offensive/Offensive teams incredibly well with just one layer making a huge pessure on the opponent. There is of course pokemon which isn't affected by Toxic Spikes mainly flying types, but also levitaters and thats where Stealth Rock comes in handy. This is pretty scary ill give you an example: Lets say I get up Toxic Spikes and Rocks and the opponent has no Toxic Spikes absorber, but has some flying types and some grounded pokemons. This means that only after setting up SR and a layer off T-Spikes I have a huge advantage. So after reading that sentence you can see the amount off pressure I get on my opponent limiting his swiches and forces him to stay in, giving me the advantage and the momentum off the match making it incedibly hard for him to come back into the match again.

 

[sun_beak]

Might the prevalence of Toxic Spikes in this meta allow Zangoose to carry something other than a Toxic Orb? Since T-Spikes seems to be on so many teams, Zangoose could run a Choice item or even something like Expert Belt / Silk Scarf because it will probably have a chance of getting poisoned anyway. You could switch Zangoose in after the opponent uses T-Spikes once, which would merely poison Zangoose (rather than badly poisoning) while possibly getting it in for free, as the opponent would likely be setting a second layer of T-Spikes. I don't know how well Zangoose could use such an increase in its damage output, but it sounds like it would be pretty cool.

 

[DTC]

Might the prevalence of Toxic Spikes in this meta allow Zangoose to carry something other than a Toxic Orb? Since T-Spikes seems to be on so many teams, Zangoose could run a Choice item or even something like Expert Belt / Silk Scarf because it will probably have a chance of getting poisoned anyway. You could switch Zangoose in after the opponent uses T-Spikes once, which would merely poison Zangoose (rather than badly poisoning) while possibly getting it in for free, as the opponent would likely be setting a second layer of T-Spikes. I don't know how well Zangoose could use such an increase in its damage output, but it sounds like it would be pretty cool.

You could definitely do this, but it is an incredibly greedy thing to do. For every game the opponent does not set up Toxic Spikes, you are using a much worse Zangoose, especially because your STAB attack is unboosted Facade. None of the two major damage dealing items go very well with Toxic Orb anyways -- Zangoose doesn't want to be locked into attacks by using a Choice Band, and it doesn't want to be taking more recoil than it already is if it's using Life Orb. You could go Silk Scarf or Expert Belt, but the damage increase is not significant enough to justify being weaker when not poisoned by Toxic Spikes.

The risk taken / reward received just isn't worth it in my opinion.

 

[Hot N Cold]

I'm not hyped with Toxic Spikes, against defensive teams is directly a waste because on this teams Garbodor / Roselia / Skuntank, at least one of them is a MUST, also a cleric like Misdreavus, Audino or Lickilicky never misses on this teams.

Against other more offensive teams just bulky offense etc well I think that a smart builded NU team isnt weak to Toxic Spikes, at least the big part of good teams; Scolipede / Skuntank / Garbodor / Muk / Vileplume / Arbok or just a Musharna Heal Bell this rarely miss on a team of this style, also the team that lacks to this is because runs levitate / steel / fly mons such Misdreavus, Charizard or Metang, so a big part of this teams are gonna be inmunity to Toxic Spikes. I think that Toxic Spikes are common because fits well on Scolipede or Garbodor on bulkier versions, Toxic Spikes are better on balance or bulky offense teams, are very hard to fit on more offensive teams and usually useless.

 

[Othesemo]

I'm not hyped with Toxic Spikes, against defensive teams is directly a waste because on this teams Garbodor / Roselia / Skuntank, at least one of them is a MUST, also a cleric like Misdreavus, Audino or Lickilicky never misses on this teams.

Against other more offensive teams just bulky offense etc well I think that a smart builded NU team isnt weak to Toxic Spikes, at least the big part of good teams; Scolipede / Skuntank / Garbodor / Muk / Vileplume / Arbok or just a Musharna Heal Bell this rarely miss on a team of this style, also the team that lacks to this is because runs levitate / steel / fly mons such Misdreavus, Charizard or Metang, so a big part of this teams are gonna be inmunity to Toxic Spikes. I think that Toxic Spikes are common because fits well on Scolipede or Garbodor on bulkier versions, Toxic Spikes are better on balance or bulky offense teams, are very hard to fit on more offensive teams and usually useless.

Clerics can't really do all that much against toxic spikes, since the condition is reapplied after every switch in- it could be helpful if you only absorbed the spikes after poisoning some of your mons, but you could also just switch in your poison type, so eh.

Anyways, I've personally had great success using toxic spikes. There are plenty of teams which don't run a poison type simply because they decided a non-poison type would fit better on their team. There are other teams- for example, those utilizing Golbat or Weezing- which don't have a grounded poison type to avoid stacking weaknesses. Other team styles, like rain, have difficulty finding room for a poison type while still being able to execute their main strategy. And against any of those teams, a single layer of toxic spikes at the beginning of the match can throw it massively in your favor.

As for teams with a grounded poison, wearing them down is rarely challenging. Of the mons you mentioned, the only one with reliable recovery is Vileplume, while the rest have to rely on either Rest or a Wish Passer. Even if you don't get a chance to use T-Spikes profitably in a given match, a single move slot is a small price to pay for overall success. Besides, Scolipede can often spare the moveslot easily, since Megahorn and Aqua tail give superb coverage together.

 

[Lasagne]

Sometimes Toxic Spikes can be very useful on offensive teams to wear down Pokemon that you otherwise have trouble dealing with, such as Alomomola and Seismitoad, which are often problems for some offensive Pokemon. A prime example of this is Klang; if you don't have Toxic Spikes down, and your opponent has a bulky water type, you're not going to sweep. This is why Scolipede, Garbodor or Roselia is almost always found on a team that utilizes Klang. Without Toxic Spikes, it's not going anywhere, and has no hope of doing much at all to the opposing team.

There are only a few Pokemon this applies to however, such as Tauros, Zangoose, and the aforementioned Klang. In general Toxic Spikes definitely find their home on balanced teams the most. As HNC says, on offense teams, Toxic Spikes isn't usually the choice. Balance teams, such as FLCL's team for Team Study Week 1, often use Toxic Spikes very efficiently to wear down counters to Pokemon like Zangoose. It also gives Pokemon such as Eelektross an easier time wallbreaking, with the constant wearing down of the opponent's team. If you are facing a frailer team on which you are able to almost all the members, it is not a problem to set up just one layer of Toxic Spikes, as it does more damage over 1 and 2 turns, and equals out over 3. Otherwise 2 layers is generally preferred to wear down irritating bulky mons. On stall teams, Toxic Spikes isn't particularly useful, as often it's just preferable to go for Toxic straight off the bat. I personally don't use it on my Roselia; I just find Spikes to be infinitely more useful.

Might add more to this at some point