Metagame np: NU Stage 15 - The Climb | Baton Pass Banned

yogi

I did not succumb...
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
it is simply, in its unaltered form, the hardest match up dependent strategy to build against as it, like you said, allows for a level of versatility that the reciever cannot (or usually cannot) naturally gain, with very little repercussions or counter play available (e.g. xatu); its like having your fucking final fantasy character have all the classes and abilities and sticking a middle finger up to everything that'd usually cause you to have an aneurism
 

shiloh

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Tiering Lead
hi for transparency i'll post my thoughts on bp and why i'll be voting the way i am in here (would have gotten to it sooner but finals & regionals):

bp creates a situation that should never have existed in the first place in the case that pokemon that shouldnt be able to have special attack boosts or defense boosts manage to obtain them. this allows things like xatu or mega audino once they get defense boosts to ravage through a tier that lacks offensive capabilities in order to break through them. which forces the opponent to be put in a position to fish for crits, which brings the game down to a factor of luck as opposed to skill. this creates issues with other stats like special attack boosts being provided to a scarfer like rotom or swellow and makes the opponent pray they have enough resists or strong enough priority to deal with them.

at this point in time baton pass has been a prevailing issue all throughout the generation, and its time to get rid of it. we keep making clauses that work for a while till the next big thing comes around and its time for that to end. by banning baton pass, which maybe should have been done from the start, we stop all the theorymonning and creation of future clauses once sm are out. baton pass is like a weed that we keep on cutting from the ground up, but never really pull out the roots which would be just banning it.

also to the people that say we should add another clause like "baton pass + boosts" ask the question, why are we working so hard to preserve this when we can just ban it at its root. yes dry passing is a thing, but currently in nu there are only two pokemon i can think of that really use it on its slots, musharna and mawile. musharna atm isnt that great, and even then it has much better things to do than dry pass like barrier / cm. defensive mawile does take quite a hit in viablity with this, but it already wasnt playing a huge role in the currently more specially inclined metagame.

all of this is why i'll be voting to ban it once the vote goes up
 
So we screw over possible future Pokemon who may not have U-turn or volt switch because you guys don't want to preserve a move?
Ok
Were over here banning baton pass, one of the least broken moves in the metagame without boosts while we still have scald running rampant
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
So we screw over possible future Pokemon who may not have U-turn or volt switch because you guys don't want to preserve a move?
Ok
Were over here banning baton pass, one of the least broken moves in the metagame without boosts while we still have scald running rampant
this decision will strictly affect oras nu, im not sure why future pokemon are being brought up. a clause for any potential sun/moon nu has not been discussed and will not be discussed until we have a beta tier.

For anyone reading, this is generally a poor attitude to post with if you intend to have anyone take you seriously. You have the ability to add constructive criticism to the discussion and we will take what you have to say into consideration, but when your post lacks substance that actually relates to tiering it's not helpful.

If anyone has anything else to add to the discussion this thread will be left open for 24 hours and then the council will vote on the fate of baton pass.
 
this decision will strictly affect oras nu, im not sure why future pokemon are being brought up. a clause for any potential sun/moon nu has not been discussed and will not be discussed until we have a beta tier.

For anyone reading, this is generally a poor attitude to post with if you intend to have anyone take you seriously. You have the ability to add constructive criticism to the discussion and we will take what you have to say into consideration, but when your post lacks substance that actually relates to tiering it's not helpful.


If anyone has anything else to add to the discussion this thread will be left open for 24 hours and then the council will vote on the fate of baton pass.
Constructive?
Most arguments for banning baton pass is easily whittled down to xatu wrecks my team, ban baton pass
If you call that a good arugment when it's been echoed throughout the entire tier, then okay
I have been sadly, the only person trying to preserve some miniscule piece so people in this tier could use to play with and possibly promote growth within the tier
You guys are so damn ban hungry you don't want to see any other part of keeping a small piece of a move could bring, or you simply don't care
You guys are screaming oh yeah but only 2 Pokemon use it so why not..Throw it away
This tier is nu, stop pretending we haven't seen something people might've thought trash before and it became a god
I want to see this move preserved because I want to be able to say hey, wait a second..So and so Pokemon is great with base baton pass!
But I guess innovation is dead
 
What do you mean ban hungry? lol the BP clause has been tweaked multiple times to preserve dry passing and the move has still proven to be a problem hence this whole discussion. My advice is to read rozes' post again because he makes a ton of good points.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Constructive?
Most arguments for banning baton pass is easily whittled down to xatu wrecks my team, ban baton pass
If you call that a good arugment when it's been echoed throughout the entire tier, then okay
I have been sadly, the only person trying to preserve some miniscule piece so people in this tier could use to play with and possibly promote growth within the tier
You guys are so damn ban hungry you don't want to see any other part of keeping a small piece of a move could bring, or you simply don't care
You guys are screaming oh yeah but only 2 Pokemon use it so why not..Throw it away
This tier is nu, stop pretending we haven't seen something people might've thought trash before and it became a god
I want to see this move preserved because I want to be able to say hey, wait a second..So and so Pokemon is great with base baton pass!
But I guess innovation is dead
Yes, constructive. As in the exact opposite of this post. If I see anyone else make a call out post, or anything that is essentially incessant complaining, I will be handing out infractions. This is a thread for serious discussion.

You are not the only person trying to preserve the move. The reason we currently have a baton pass clause rather than a straight move ban is because of the fact we've been trying to preserve the move.

The NU council is in no way ban hungry, we have suspected and banned no more or less than the rest of the tiers this generation. I'm sick and tired of people suggesting that tiering councils have hidden agendas when it comes to tiering. We want what is best for the tier we play, plain and simple. Suggesting otherwise comes off as disrespectful and uninformed.

No one has been screaming that because a potential ban will only affect 2 pokemon that it's simply ok to go through with it. I've personally never stated this because I think it's an extremely weak argument and poor policy.

I'm aware the tier we play is called neverused, I'm not sure what implying a tier is based on usage has to do with the viability of a move or pokemon and how that relates to tiering. One of the reason's this ban is being considered is because of the potential for baton pass to be broken again, because as you say, we're not pretending "something people might've thought [was] trash before and it became a god."

So you want to preserve something so that you have the potential to see that a pokemon could be good with that something. I'm not sure how this logic is ever ok to use in serious tiering policy.

Innovation is certainly not dead, we are still constantly seeing new and interesting strategies develop in the tournament scene. That being said we are nearing the end of the tier's lifespan and the majority of things have been figured out. I do not condone keeping broken elements around simply for people to try and figure out how to make them not broken. If that was feasible then the element would not be broken in the first place.
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
i think theres a rather fine line between innovation and baton passing tbh. i don't really think it actually has much area for initial innovation or any thereafter, with small exceptions such as passing speed around its clause; tho that's just essentially clause manipulation, which is a rather scary thing tbh... if ive shown with the current speed clause that it can be worked around, albeit with difficulty, then what's to say others wont find a way to get around future clauses? if the innovation is to either break a mon(s) or break its clause, then there's clearly something wrong with baton pass.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Thanks everyone for your continued input. The council will now begin voting on whether we keep our current baton pass clause or ban the move completely. You can expect to have the results within 48 hours. In addition, I'm asking all council members to give a brief reasoning for their vote which will be posted along with the results, so you can all see where we stand.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The results are in: 7 of the 9 council members have returned votes of ban baton pass. Baton Pass will be banned from play in ORAS NU. You can find council votes with reasoning below, when the other members of the council weigh in I will edit their votes into this post.
Ban
I mean, at this point I feel as if the topic of Baton Pass is so overloaded it'll be hard to find any new points to bring up both in favor of and against it.
- Are any remaining Baton Pass strategies in the tier relevant, hallmark pillars for a healthy nu metagame in your eyes, and, if not, are you still fine with removing them as collateral because of the immense impact of the previous Baton Pass-related issues?
- Are you comfortable with the existence of a complex clause which could be used as an argument for any other proposed complex clauses in the future?

In my opinion, this is not a matter of whether or not Baton Pass is broken in NU anymore. It is a matter of policy and setting precedent. It's simple: the move Baton Pass has been the root cause for each broken Baton Pass strategy, and, if you agree that a complex ban only causes unhealthy precedent, then you ban the move. However, if the council agrees that a complex ban in this situation is fine because it preserves an important part of the tier (I.E. drypassing which exists on maybe 2 relevant Pokemon right now and the more common SD/CM Pass) then we shouldn't do anything.
This pretty accurately sums up my thoughts. I dislike our current clause due to it being complex in nature and I personally feel for the sake of tiering policy we should attempt to simplify ORAS NU's banlist as much as possible, provided it makes sense to. I also don't want to have to revisit a dead metagame if for some reason we goofed up and cosmic power pass or some other garbage strategy becomes a problem.

I'm for banning the move for the sake of simplicity and to avoid any potential issues with a move shown time and time again to be the root of a broken strategy.
Ban
I actually think our current clause has done a pretty good job of keeping BP in check since it was implemented, however I think it's better from a policy perspective moving forward that we just simplify and ban the move entirely. the tradeoff argument isnt very strong because while i agree that smogon tiering councils should be trying to be to reduce collateral damage if possible, keeping our bans as simple as possible should take precedent over that (especially in this case, when we're talking about 2-ish mons max).
Ban
Baton Pass has always created problems no matter how many clauses are applied to it. Banning Smash Pass (or more specifically Speed boosts + another stat) initially was a step in the right direction, but new strategies appeared with Combusken Pass and that ultimately got banned as well. Instead of trying to create all these clauses that as an attempt to nerf the move, banning it at its root is the best decision. As far as the collateral goes, I don't believe drypass isn't significant enough of a reason to ban the move. Yes it hurts the viability of a couple Pokemon, but that isn't worth the trouble of creating yet another complex ban, which tiers should be trying to stray away from anyways.
Ban
Evan echoes my thoughts pretty closely and I do think there are a decent number of BP-related strategies that are healthy for the metagame, but they simply don't compare to the huge number of ones that aren't. It would be ridiculously subjective and overcomplicated to try and weed all the healthy ones out, while drypass on its own isn't relevant enough to justify keeping BP around.
Ban
Ban
bp creates a situation that should never have existed in the first place in the case that pokemon that shouldnt be able to have special attack boosts or defense boosts manage to obtain them. this allows things like xatu or mega audino once they get defense boosts to ravage through a tier that lacks offensive capabilities in order to break through them. which forces the opponent to be put in a position to fish for crits, which brings the game down to a factor of luck as opposed to skill. this creates issues with other stats like special attack boosts being provided to a scarfer like rotom or swellow and makes the opponent pray they have enough resists or strong enough priority to deal with them.

at this point in time baton pass has been a prevailing issue all throughout the generation, and its time to get rid of it. we keep making clauses that work for a while till the next big thing comes around and its time for that to end. by banning baton pass, which maybe should have been done from the start, we stop all the theorymonning and creation of future clauses once sm are out. baton pass is like a weed that we keep on cutting from the ground up, but never really pull out the roots which would be just banning it.

also to the people that say we should add another clause like "baton pass + boosts" ask the question, why are we working so hard to preserve this when we can just ban it at its root. yes dry passing is a thing, but currently in nu there are only two pokemon i can think of that really use it on its slots, musharna and mawile. musharna atm isnt that great, and even then it has much better things to do than dry pass like barrier / cm. defensive mawile does take quite a hit in viablity with this, but it already wasnt playing a huge role in the currently more specially inclined metagame.
Ban
Did not vote
Did not vote
 

Disjunction

Everything I waste gets recycled
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I'm super excited for a Baton Pass-less metagame regardless of how close we are to shelving this tier. NUPL will be a lot funner as a result.

For reference, here's a list of some mons that got hit by the recent BP ban:

Dry Pass:

Boost Passers:

Shit That Should Hopefully Not Be Broken Anymore Until At Least Gen 7:


Most of these Pokemon are hardly even viable with Baton Pass, but I figured it'd be cool to represent what exactly was axed. A couple important notes I think people should take away from the ban:
  • Pursuit got slightly better and has a deep edge against those sheddy stall teams now.
  • Tons of these Pokemon have options for filling out what they are now lacking in moveslots. Defensive maw has Pain Split, Seismic Toss, Super Fang, Icy Wind, Iron Head, Knock Off, and Toxic. Musharna has Signal Beam, Barrier, and Heal Bell. Mr. Mime can run Shadow Ball for opposing Bronzor. The list goes on.
  • A very good alternative for CB Leafeon's 4th slot is just running Sawsbuck instead.
  • You can be slightly less scared of the "5 PU mons that might have BP and a boosting move but you can't quite remember" + Malamar team archetype that has been so dominating lately.
  • There was some discussion going on behind closed doors, but this ban cements the fact that Specs Illumise is now objectively more viable than any of Volbeat's sets.
  • Shedinja is probably still viable enough to define an obnoxious sub-archetype of stall that we see once every 6 months when kay decides he wants to start early on his yearly 10 games of Pokemon.
shoutouts to the xy nu legend iplaybplol
 

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
  • A very good alternative for CB Leafeon's 4th slot is just running Sawsbuck instead.
lol

just wanted to say its great to see so much cohesion within the council. i understand the benefits of lively debates but on a policy issue like baton pass its much better everyone is on the same page and it appears they are. kiyo's post is even a little misleading (in a good way!) because nobody actually voted no ban, shane and ryan are just dead roosters. good shit.
 
With SM NU right about the corner me and Eternally were talking about a couple of pokémons that liked how the metagame was going and also disliked how the metagame was going:

Like the current metagame:
: Due to the rapid increase in SpecsSprit usage, Dark types are almost a must to have on any team, this is where Skuntank began to shine more then it did already. With the ability to be immuune to Psychic while still being normal against Signal Beam helps Skuntank alot over other dark types, now with Crunch being a more common filler move helps as well with the like CM Colbur / bulky Colbur Psychics what otherwise it was struggling against. The special set became also more populair with the likes of rhydon and steelix being the main rockers as of late, With Shuca Fire Blast or HP Grass you were able to massive damage to both of them. Despite both Skuntank sets are easy to take advantage of when you know the set Skuntank was liking how the metagame was going in the end.

: Another Dark type that benefits of the popularity of the likes of Mesprit / Xatu and Bronzor in a lesser extent, while being overshadowed alot of the time by Skuntank and Shiftry, Liepard finally found it's place with it's Choice Band set. Choice band hits increblibly hard with it's main stab Knock Off (one of the best moves in the game), with Mega-Audino also being less populair helps Liepard alot since that was on of it's main counters. All with all Liepard got the love it deserves at the end of ORAS NU.

: With the rising popularity of Dark types the Fighting types was a logic result of it. Gurdurr being a amazing fighting type with good bulk and the ability guts, Gurdurr is easily able to sweep after one Bulk Up what is can set up on most of the common mons in the meta game (of course not psychic types counted). With Stone Edge being more common as of late Scyther and Charizard are more fearing to switch in on Gurdurr because it just straight ohko's them. Gurdurr rising popularity is well deserved in the end.

: Another Fighting type that has increased immense in popularity, Hitmonchan is now the best Spinner in ORAS NU with it's good variety of sets and power. Hitmonchan had issues catching up with the popularity of psychic types but in the end it found it's place. Something that has seen a lot of popularity is "BU Chan" which rampages through Balance which use Vileplume and Xatu as primary fighting-type checks. After one Bulk up those aren't a check anymore and most of the mons that are able to outspeed Hitmonchan do not like taking a +1 Mach Punch. At the end Hitmonchan fell down to the tier it belongs in and it's a force to reckoned with.

Dislike the current metagame:
:
As I have told before in a post in the VR thread, the current metagame is very unfriendly to Rotom due to the popularity of Skuntank / Liepard, Pursuit / Zen Headbutt Tauros and Pursuit Scyther (Hariyama / Rhydon / Lanturn to a lesser extent). Makes it really hard to use rotom effectively, Scarf has troubles vs Lanturn / Rhydon and is almost forced to trick it which loses your scarf most of the time really early in the game. Spell Tag WispHex isn't as threatning as it was before thanks to the rise of darks types, with Spell Tag WispHex not being as common due to its immense vulnerability towards pursuit trappers, Lanturn has become an even better check than before. Colbur was good back in the day when Skuntanks didn't run Crunch but nowadays its quite a common filler move. All with all at the end of ORAS NU Rotom wasn't as threatning as it was before.

: While being the most threatning Shell Smasher in the tier and a pretty good scarfer Barbaracle does not like how ORAS NU is going to end. With the populairity of Hitmonchan, Gurdurr, Vileplume and Seed Bomb Garbodor, Barbaracle has a hard time to shine in the current metagame. Shell smash is pretty hard to set up and due to the weakness to fighting can you take it out pretty easy after some chip with Mach Punch from both Hitmonchan and Gurdurr (Gurdurr is also to live any hit at full health and just OHKO is after with Drain Punch). With Seed Bomb Garbodor being more common then not doesn't help it either, while all this it's still a pokémon to look out for just not as threatning as it was before.

This was the end of ORAS NU and I enjoyed the most of it and let's have a fun SM NU!
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top