Metagame np: USUM DOU Stage 1 - New Perspective

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This is my first time voting in a suspect so I apologize in advance if I've done something wrong (Hopefully this is the right place to make this preliminary post, and if it isn't then I'd like to request for it to be moved to the appropriate thread or for me to be informed so that I can paste it over.). I'm relatively new to doubles itself, but knew I had to partake in this suspect test as I have very strong feelings about it and feel that I have played enough with the suspect (Marshadow) to have a somewhat noteworthy opinion on the matter.

I actually laddered every single game for this suspect with a team containing Marshadow, with the main one I utilised being located in the spoiler at the bottom of this post. I didn't create it, but it was simply too powerful not to use. I'm relatively new to doubles but have found myself disgusted at the sheer power Marshadow holds over the metagame currently, whether that be during a battle or its overall influence on teambuilding as a whole.

Before anyone reads my comments on Marshadow, I'd like to request for them to watch this replay, which showcases the immense power Marshadow holds, and how you have to account for it when teambuilding or suffer the irreparable consequences when you run into one ingame. However, as always, this replay is somewhat situational.

Replay = https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-680432818

He brought creativity and I brought a Marshadow. I was getting outplayed at 3AM but hey, who cares when I can just spam one button with Marshadow over and over again? The replay also showcases the immense strength of the Kyurem B + Marshadow core, which I believe is far stronger than it should be.

The biggest problem I had in any given doubles game was when my opponent also had a Marshadow. My personal counter to an enemy Marshadow came in the form of having my own Marshadow alongside my Kyurem-Black on the field at the same time. My opponent ALWAYS attacked my Marshadow with their own because they knew just how much of a threat Marshadow was, so I'd protect with Marshadow and icy wind with Kyurem to make sure that I won the speed tie next turn. I relied on my opponent attacking my Marshadow with shadow sneak over them firing a close combat into Kyurem, and it worked every single time.

My overall issues with Marshadow can be found below.
  • Discourages anyone else from setting up and forces players to account for Marshadow when teambuilding: A single mon + move has done so much. You see variations of the same teams over and over again higher up on the ladder, and one of the reasons for this is the presence of Marshadow. If anyone was gutsy enough to opt for a unique set up team in this current meta, they'd be forced to pay the price for it whenever they run into a team running Marshadow. They may be safe lower down on the ladder because of this, but they're never going to get a good peak (e.g 1300+) without running a Marshadow of their own or a solid counter (And you should never be punished for not having a certain Pokemon on your team).
  • It's so hard to switch in on Marshadow. On it's own, Marshadow is nasty to switch into. Intimidating with Landorus would be a viable option, but that's off the table if your opponent has anything with an ice move in their other slot (Which is very often, considering Mega Metagross, Tapu Fini and Kyurem Black are everywhere). I'd also refer to my previous point when discussing Landorus as a counter to Marshadow, which is that one should not be heavily punished for not choosing one Pokemon (Marshadow) and be forced to bring another (Landorus) just to deal with that single Pokemon out of the 802 in existence. On the team I used, I grouped Marshadow and Kyurem Black as the central core. Marshadow with life orb can kill anything without bulk, and Kyurem not only deters switch-ins, but can also slow down anything that would revenge kill Marshadow with icy wind + protect. Amoonguss would also be a viable counter to Marshadow but is never used because it is flat out murdered by other prominent doubles mons such as Tailwind Zapdos, Kyurem B and M Metagross, and all intimidate mons just die to kyurem or a HP ice.
  • Great typing and fast enough to outspeed & OHKO many Pokemon that would otherwise be threats to it. Marshadow in itself is barely tolerable with its good typing and stats, but add on an exclusive Z move alongside a stat stealing, damage dealing move and it just becomes excessive. I don't really want to filll up a slot (and possibly a mon) with ally switch just to get out of the way of an incoming spectral thief every game. Once again goes back to my first point, which is that you shouldn't be punished for bringing/not bringing a certain pokemon into battle.
These are just my opinions on Marshadow as a whole and why I see it as such a problem in Doubles OU. I'd also like to apologise for the abundance of unseen grammatical errors as I'm too lazy to proofread.

My arguments will by no means be concrete as I'm new to Doubles as a whole, but they're something to take into account and build on from/counter.

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite

Ability: Tough Claws

EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Iron Head

- Zen Headbutt

- Ice Punch

- Protect


Zapdos @ Misty Seed

Ability: Static

EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD / 16 Spe

Calm Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Thunderbolt

- Tailwind

- Heat Wave

- Roost


Tapu Fini @ Mago Berry

Ability: Misty Surge

EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 36 SpA / 104 SpD / 48 Spe

Bold Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Muddy Water

- Moonblast

- Heal Pulse

- Protect


Marshadow @ Life Orb

Ability: Technician

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Spectral Thief

- Shadow Sneak

- Close Combat

- Protect


Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z

Ability: Intimidate

EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 Spe

Adamant Nature

- Earthquake

- Stealth Rock

- U-turn

- Stone Edge


Kyurem-Black @ Assault Vest

Ability: Teravolt

EVs: 4 HP / 244 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

Relaxed Nature

- Icy Wind

- Ice Beam

- Fusion Bolt

- Hidden Power [Fire]
 
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Ok, so there's been a lot of discussion about Gothitelle and Snorlax in the last few weeks, and I think that everyone most people (except for KyleCole) thinks that Gothitelle ought to be suspect-tested.

Earlier today we saw Miltank and Stax play for spl. Spoiler alert: miltank wins with bdrum lax. The basic strategy with Goth/Lax (or goth + any other set up sweeper) is to
1.) cripple 1 or 2 mons so they cant do damage to lax or goth while goth is on the field
2.) get a free switch in to lax
3.) get belly drum up, and set up tr with goth if you havent already
4.) KO the mon that is more threatening to goth/lax
5.) KO your opponent's mons as they come in after the last mon faints, being sure not to KO the crippled mon that cant threaten lax

This is part of why Level 51's Goth/Lax team is so popular (Goth/Lax/Lando-T/Manectric/Fini/Celesteela). Double intimidate + snarl on Manectric makes it super easy to cripple bulky things that dont hit particularly hard already, and then U-Turn or Volt-Switch out to Gothitelle, trapping them as easy set up bait. This basic strategy is pretty mindless, and difficult to play around, barring otherwise subpar techs and item choices (Bisharp, Knock Off Fini, Toxic, etc.)

Here are a handful of games demonstrating this idea well:
So those that weren't present earlier today can see, I'ma post the discord logs from after Miltank vs. Stax' game.
[3:40 PM] GenOne: Goth lax is the new azu rachi y/n

[3:40 PM] sam: yea stax couldnt beat the lax

[3:41 PM] Pinoy Pwnage: Suspect goth?

[3:41 PM] KyleCole: Nothing wrong w goth

[3:41 PM] Pinoy Pwnage: jk ik

[3:41 PM] KyleCole: Lax would still be busted ;_;

[3:41 PM] Pinoy Pwnage: true true

[3:41 PM] MegaCyber: maybe, but that doesnt mean goth isnt a problem

[3:41 PM] AuraRayquaza: Do people enjoy this

[3:42 PM] AuraRayquaza: Goth is weak to ghost

[3:42 PM] AuraRayquaza: Lax is weak to fighting

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: o well why dont we just unban giratina, that beats goth lax?

[3:42 PM] KyleCole: Goth w/o lax isn’t even good

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: or maybe primal don

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: that beats goth lax

[3:42 PM] KyleCole: That’s how I know it’s not broken

[3:42 PM] peachyy: free zekrom

[3:42 PM] stax: im retarded

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: this game is a perfect example

[3:42 PM] stax: lol

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: that if you dont have

[3:42 PM] stax: this game was so easy to win

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: dude, goth + any set up sweeper is dumb

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: specific techs

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: you cant get around lax

[3:43 PM] MegaCyber: p much

[3:43 PM] frania snowflake: thats so unhealthy

[3:43 PM] MegaCyber: rt

[3:43 PM] miltankmilk: goth is gay

[3:44 PM] Jhon-: stag in general is very very strong with the large amount of stuff wihch can play off it

[3:44 PM] motivated + not-defeatist croven: im gay

[3:44 PM] MegaCyber: stag?

[3:44 PM] AuraRayquaza: Shadow tag

[3:44 PM] motivated + not-defeatist croven: shadow tag

[3:44 PM] the 1st shaykage: Yes use someones sexuality in a negative connotation

[3:44 PM] MegaCyber: o

[3:44 PM] the 1st shaykage:


[3:44 PM] motivated + not-defeatist croven:


[3:45 PM] the 1st shaykage:


[3:45 PM] Pinoy Pwnage:

p.s. I still love u kyle, u just have terrible opinions when it comes to banning mons 9 times out of 10

edit: removed an erroneous replay, my b
edit2: Id definitely be open to a suspect of snorlax as well. Basically, "[3:40 PM] GenOne: Goth lax is the new azu rachi y/n" sums it up. goth/lax takes minimal skill to use, and can punish fairly minor misplays with a +6 snorlax.
 
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1) other than "[3:43 PM] miltankmilk: goth is gay", no one in those logs (other than you) has anything to say about gothitelle being banworthy besides I guess pinoy who says "just kidding" immediately after

2) I assume I got a "shoutout" here because I said that goth w/o lax is not an issue, which I stand by. If you're going to argue that then great! But if it's me or my point that you want to specifically address, then post a "cancerous" replay with gothitelle that doesn't have lax. That, or don't mention me specifically I guess.

3) you posted a replay of a game of mine to highlight how banworthy gothitelle is, but neither of us are using Goth ?_?
 
Ok, so there's been a lot of discussion about Gothitelle and Snorlax in the last few weeks, and I think that everyone most people (except for KyleCole) thinks that Gothitelle ought to be suspect-tested.

Earlier today we saw Miltank and Stax play for spl. Spoiler alert: miltank wins with bdrum lax. The basic strategy with Goth/Lax (or goth + any other set up sweeper) is to
1.) cripple 1 or 2 mons so they cant do damage to lax or goth while goth is on the field
2.) get a free switch in to lax
3.) get belly drum up, and set up tr with goth if you havent already
4.) KO the mon that is more threatening to goth/lax
5.) KO your opponent's mons as they come in after the last mon faints, being sure not to KO the crippled mon that cant threaten lax

This is part of why Level 51's Goth/Lax team is so popular (Goth/Lax/Lando-T/Manectric/Fini/Celesteela). Double intimidate + snarl on Manectric makes it super easy to cripple bulky things that dont hit particularly hard already, and then U-Turn or Volt-Switch out to Gothitelle, trapping them as easy set up bait. This basic strategy is pretty mindless, and difficult to play around, barring otherwise subpar techs and item choices (Bisharp, Knock Off Fini, Toxic, etc.)

Here are a handful of games demonstrating this idea well:
So those that weren't present earlier today can see, I'ma post the discord logs from after Miltank vs. Stax' game.
[3:40 PM] GenOne: Goth lax is the new azu rachi y/n

[3:40 PM] sam: yea stax couldnt beat the lax

[3:41 PM] Pinoy Pwnage: Suspect goth?

[3:41 PM] KyleCole: Nothing wrong w goth

[3:41 PM] Pinoy Pwnage: jk ik

[3:41 PM] KyleCole: Lax would still be busted ;_;

[3:41 PM] Pinoy Pwnage: true true

[3:41 PM] MegaCyber: maybe, but that doesnt mean goth isnt a problem

[3:41 PM] AuraRayquaza: Do people enjoy this

[3:42 PM] AuraRayquaza: Goth is weak to ghost

[3:42 PM] AuraRayquaza: Lax is weak to fighting

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: o well why dont we just unban giratina, that beats goth lax?

[3:42 PM] KyleCole: Goth w/o lax isn’t even good

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: or maybe primal don

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: that beats goth lax

[3:42 PM] KyleCole: That’s how I know it’s not broken

[3:42 PM] peachyy: free zekrom

[3:42 PM] stax: im retarded

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: this game is a perfect example

[3:42 PM] stax: lol

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: that if you dont have

[3:42 PM] stax: this game was so easy to win

[3:42 PM] MegaCyber: dude, goth + any set up sweeper is dumb

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: specific techs

[3:42 PM] frania snowflake: you cant get around lax

[3:43 PM] MegaCyber: p much

[3:43 PM] frania snowflake: thats so unhealthy

[3:43 PM] MegaCyber: rt

[3:43 PM] miltankmilk: goth is gay

[3:44 PM] Jhon-: stag in general is very very strong with the large amount of stuff wihch can play off it

[3:44 PM] motivated + not-defeatist croven: im gay

[3:44 PM] MegaCyber: stag?

[3:44 PM] AuraRayquaza: Shadow tag

[3:44 PM] motivated + not-defeatist croven: shadow tag

[3:44 PM] the 1st shaykage: Yes use someones sexuality in a negative connotation

[3:44 PM] MegaCyber: o

[3:44 PM] the 1st shaykage:


[3:44 PM] motivated + not-defeatist croven:


[3:45 PM] the 1st shaykage:


[3:45 PM] Pinoy Pwnage:

p.s. I still love u kyle, u just have terrible opinions when it comes to banning mons 9 times out of 10

edit: removed an erroneous replay, my b
edit2: Id definitely be open to a suspect of snorlax as well. Basically, "[3:40 PM] GenOne: Goth lax is the new azu rachi y/n" sums it up. goth/lax takes minimal skill to use, and can punish fairly minor misplays with a +6 snorlax.
Gothlax is really great rn, it wouldn't be a bad idea to suspect goth just due to the fact that it can destroy teams with tag+heal pulse and nice bulk and reasonable defensive typing.
 
Gothlax is really great rn, it wouldn't be a bad idea to suspect goth just due to the fact that it can destroy teams with tag+heal pulse and nice bulk and reasonable defensive typing.
Although I do agree that GothLax is doing very well in the current meta, Gothitelle in and of itself does not "destroy teams". My definition of a mon that is worth suspecting is something that is overcentralizing and restricts teambuilding, and as I see it Gothitelle does not fit that definition. As KyleCole has stated above, Gothitelle without Snorlax isn't super threatening. It's simply a good support mon, and there are many other options that can also fit that role.

I've personally used Gothitelle plenty of times on the ladder both with and without Snorlax, and although I don't have replays to show for it, Gothitelle can just be dead weight. Using Taunt shuts down most of its options, just like any other support mon. Heck, even Aegislash and Mega-Gengar can destroy it with Ghost-type STAB and have immunity to Shadow Tag. There are several other examples I can list, but I don't want to make this post too long for something like this.

How I see it, GothLax is just a popular core in the current meta, but saying that Gothitelle is banworthy is ridiculous to me. There could be somewhat of an argument for Snorlax, but Gothitelle? Nahh man.
 

Bughouse

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(assuming there is one) since when is the problem with gothlax goth and not lax? lax is seen in other teambuilds, like with mew, etc.
 

Bughouse

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Double posting because why not, theorycraft is fun. I don't play much dubs anymore but I've been thinking with how good Zygarde is, including the rise of CB's immediate power and lack of good thousand arrows resists, as well as issues with GothLax, as well as issues with Amoonguss redirection + set up sweepers in general (could be lax or zygarde here too!!), there may be a niche for Gourgeist (or one of the other Grass/Ghosts... there's 4 now! I know Dhelmise saw a touch of VGC use.) to return to usage after a looooooong time of being totally unused.

Tapu Bulu is obviously the generally better pokemon, but not at handling a boosted Lax in TR and also not if Amoonguss runs Sludge Bomb like it usually does.

Has anyone built a team with any of Dhelmise, Decidueye, Gourgeist, or Trevenant? Is there a niche for that nifty and currently relevant defensive typing?
 

talkingtree

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I built a team with Trevenant because of course I did... mine was more about Wood Hammer + Harvest + Figy Berry though, and the issue is its value quickly diminishes once the foe switches in their Grass resist.

I know Dhelmise has seen some niche use in DUU, but aside from Nido-Rus I haven't seen anyone try to make it relevant in DOU because its role so closely clashes with Ferrothorn's, trading Ferrothorn's helpful resilience to Flying-, Rock-, and Fairy-type moves from its secondary Steel-typing to get a better Zygarde matchup. That trade's rarely worth it, and though Dhelmise has some cool supportive options like Ally Switch, Helping Hand, and Anchor Shot for trapping, I don't see it making much of a splash.

I think someone was also playing around with a joke team that had Z-Trick or Treat Gourgeist + Snorlax to give Lax an immunity to Fighting-type moves but other than that, haven't heard anything about baby pumpkin.
 

Fran

formerly Frania
is a Tiering Contributor
DPL Champion

I think from the first moment we Marshadow vote came through almost everyone had the same question is the back of their head: how good Snorlax is going to be? In the first couple weeks, outside of test games, we didn't have any solid base to make up our minds of what the metagame will look like. I tried to avoid speculating, but like everyone else i had some ideas that i wanted to try out once tournaments started.

Now that we're over a month in, with SPL being almost in the middle of regular season, and seasonals round 4 starting tomorrow we have seen/played a bunch of games and i noticed a lot of people have been talking about what has happened to Snorlax. With its main check being gone it has seen an immense rise in usage and with the only strong fighting type leaving the tier we were left with almost no way of directly damaging it. The increased viability on psychic type TR setters like Gothitelle and Mew also helped push it, as they provide Trick Room and Shadow Tag + Heal Pulse or Fake Out + Transform accordingly. It recently got bumped into tier 1 on the Viability Rankings and now when i prepare for tournament games i make sure all of my teams have multiple ways of soft checking it. After some consideration and talking to other people in doubles i decided to share my thoughts on why we should consider suspect testing and banning Snorlax.

My first and probably biggest issue is that it lacks direct counterplay. There is very few viable pokemon (with a specific moveset) that are able to threaten it with serious damage. I won’t even suggest checking it, because there isn’t one single thing that fully does. In some aspects it reminds me of Kangaskhan, though in another instances they are dramatically different. Yet, they both lack strong checks among the better part of viable pokemon and with their counters being perfectly covered by their supporting pokemon. They both are able to win almost every 1v1 match up and to beat them you need multiple coverage options that are meant for just them (and still don’t ensure you’ll succeed in the match up). I think its very unhealthy for the metagame to have a pokemon that can get past almost anything, even if Snorlax is a little easier to cripple. Im not trying to draw a comparison in terms of how broken they are, but i think you can spot some patterns that we noticed last time we suspected Kangaskhan.

As i have mentioned before the success of Snorlax isn’t just due to itself getting better - the rise in viability of Trick Room setters, mainly Mew and Gothitelle. Now, without Marshadow in the tier, they are able to set up almost every game and support it with their coverage respectively (Heal Pulse/Fake Out + Transform). Speedcontrol, that is now so much easier to accomplish, isn’t only relevant to how quickly Snorlax is going to run the opposing team, but also it lets it get around the its biggest counterplay in Knock Off. Now that you can get the Belly Drum up and consume your berry you are free to attack/recycle and the only way your opponent can get around it is trying to damage it and as i have mentioned (and you can tell by looking at the Viability Rankings) not much can get by it by using brute force. Now, im not claiming that the strategy is flawless, without good positioning you won’t be able to pull it off, but i think thats part of the reason its so good currently is that it can get around most of its supposed counters.

One worth noting comparison i found is when you compare it to Tapu Fini against the Metagross/Victini/Landorus-T/Zapdos/KyuremB/Tapu Fini team i have been running. While it may seem specific, i encourage you to compare any viable pokemon with any solid doubles team and you will get similar results. In this match up the opposing Tapu Fini would be used to counter Victini and Landorus-T and check KyuremB depending on the position. It would be countered by Zapdos. Now look at Snorlax against that team: i run two checks to it in Knock Off Landorus-T and Haze Tapu Fini, still depending on conditions it would be able to set up against both (Landorus in TR, Fini as Trick Room is being set/when its not on the field). Versus the rest of the team it can set up against, in the best case scenario it would be Belly Drum and i can get 45% on it with Iron Head. I used that team for the example, because im the most familiar with it, so i know from experience as most of these scenarios go. Even if Zapdos is my supposed Tapu Fini counter at times i either wouldn’t be able to bring it in as my opponent would try to get in the position where he can disallow that or there have been games where i just had lost it. At times like these i was put at a disadvantage, but i often managed to find my way out as i could use most of my pokemon to damage it. For example i would try to trade my Landorus or KyuremB if i desperately needed to wear it down - just because i lost my dedicated counter it didn’t mean i lost the game. When you are playing against a Snorlax the reality is much different. If you aren’t able to have your right pokemon in at the right time it likely meant you are going to loose the match. I saw a couple time someone else use my team and get into a seemingly advantageous position, just to see them loose, because they lost their Knock Off user and weren’t able to overcome it. In my opinion this very much goes against the nature of doubles, it takes away a lot from the strategy aspect and forces players to play very linearly and simplifies the game. Now obviously i agree that loosing your direct counter to a certain pokemon is a theoretical disadvantage, but doubles is partly a game of trades and when loosing one pokemon means you almost automatically loose the game it just takes away from the competitive aspect.

I hope i was able to showcase the main issues i have in Snorlax in the current metagame and i would really appreciate it if you could go through the arguments i mentioned, before you make up your minds. There’s plenty of replays in the SPL forums and in the recent seasonals rounds, so if you want to envision what i was talking about i encourage you look there.
 
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