NP: UU - Silent Night

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Meru

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Just throwing an idea out there, but has anybody tried Mean Look Baton Pass Absol lead? Could set up on Uxie and Scarf Mesprit depending on their movesets. It's kind of an all-or-nothing lead but so is Ninjask and it's OU.
 
That is a decent idea Meru, except trickscarfing and uturn are both common. You lose to Qwilfish and Ambipom, but Omastar is pretty good setup bait for...some type of Calm Minder I guess. It would actually be pretty easy to set up Sub CM Mismagius on Oma.
 
Sludge Bomb, HP [Water], WoW/Fireblast, Painsplit/Boom is an nice Weezing-Set.

I used it in the past although i disliked Painsplit as a Recovery move for its unreliability.

@Metagross66: Sludge Bomb + HP [Water] grants unresisted coverage on anything in UU bar Shedinja. And it is quite nice to catch an Arcanine/Moltres/Houndoom on the Switch-In with HP
[Water].

@Drapion instead of Weezing: Weezing is better to take on various Fighting-Types - something many stallish teams (thats where you will find Weezing solely) struggle with. Drapion is almost better if you already have an nice Fighting-Check cause it has Whirlwind.
HP Grass gives you coverage on Gastrodon, Whiscash, and Quagsire who resist all of your other moves. You also get to hit Lanturn a little bit harder than Sludge Bomb. Sludge Bomb hits Fire types almost as hard as HP Water (135 BP compared to 140 BP) and you have a chance to poison them as well. HP Water only lets you hit Aggron harder and it would hesitate to switch in for fear of a Will-O-Wisp. Fire Blast also puts a nice dent in it.
 
People need to stop bringing up the ground/water shit holes when arguing for hp grass.

News flash: no one uses them because they suck. If one of those three come in and "walls" you, then you should do a dance because the opponent is using a shit hole pokemon.

Gastrodon was the 128th used pokemon in UU in july

Quagsire was 78... the king of the three shit holes

Whischash was a whopping 148. Mawile was used more than it.
 
Tell me, what else are you going to hit with HP water that resists your other moves? If you're going to dismiss them, you might as well run Explosion.
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
The Ground/Water's may not be that common but Omastar and Kabutops are, and you are setup bait for both of them without HP Grass. That, in my mind, is enough to warrant the use of HP Grass over HP Water.

Edit: Unless of course, you're worried about Magcargo and Camerupt walling you, then go ahead and use HP Water.
 
We're still discussing offensive Modest Weezing, right? Why would Weezing be set-up bait for the fossils when he can zap them with Thunderbolt?
 

shrang

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are we forgetting the term sufficiently easier? these two pokemon i mention because they really only have a few amount of counters. mismagius is my primary example - she is only countered by registeel and spiritomb and if we want to get technical we can go to the lower ranks; drapion and skuntank counters her as well but they are lesser used. with registeel placed in a deep slumber, you would think that mismagius will sweep your team sufficiently easier with one of its best counters removed from the match.
And you're accusing me of being arbitrary when comparing OUs and UUs?? How much easier is "sufficient"?? How do you define sufficient?? Can you ball-park a figure, perhaps?? Basically, all you're doing is using Venusaur to lure in Registeel in and put it to sleep. That's called a lure. Plenty of Pokemon can act as a lure and kill or severely incapacitate a counter for something else to sweep. There is a difference between the Support Characteristic and a lure. You can just as easily bait in Venusaur with an Offensive Milotic and kill it and possibly open up a sweep for something else with Venusaur out of the way. I know you hate OU-UU comparisons, but if you would read on, they are valid. Superachi consistently lures in Swampert and Heatran and destroys both, allowing your DD Tar or SD Lucario sweep substantially easier, for example.


this is one of long post but i'll keep my response short and concise. you are overthinking this too much. you are stripping the definition of consistency to its flesh. we have no set stone percentage to what consistency is but experience speaks louder than percentages. if my venusaur is always sleeping the same two pokemon nearly every game i play, then i consider that consistent. the characteristics did not guarantee a scot free sweep, nor did i mention this once; however, it did say it will provide a sufficiently easier sweep for insert pokemon. in this case, one of very few of mismagius' hard counters are removed from the match and you really cannot ignore the fact that it will sweep easier now whether you have swellow in the wings or not. the very fact is, registeel is still asleep and swellow can easily be switched out on. with swellow dead, mismagius is still alive! and can still sweep sufficiently easier with registeel sleeping. thanks to venusaur's consistency to place nearly the same two pokemon every game, it will help me other pokemon sweep. we may view things differently, but i still think this is support.
Yeah, see above. What you're using is a lure, and there is a difference between lures and being too powerful under the Support Characteristic.


it is affected by the tier. we cannot compare two different tiers because the metagame trends are completely different. one has more steel-types, the other doesn't; one has more dragon-types, the other one doesn't. it's simple as that. while i will agree on the fact they can be similar in what they do, they are just not comparable due to different metagame trends.
You can compare them if you take those different metagame conditions into account, in which I have. I might as well reword the Support Characteristic while retaining its full meaning to: A Pokemon should be banned, if it can consistently create conditions for another Pokemon to sweep in its relative tier. This should completely get rid of any tier related confusions, because you are now considering one Pokemon relative to its tier compared to another Pokemon relative to its tier (Basically I'm standardising them). I'm not sure about where you come from, but where I'm from the uni entrance exams are different in different states (Which kinda sucks, but whatever). So basically, you compete in one state, then your result is standardised against the rest of country to give you a university entrance score. Basically, you have your student (Pokemon) competing in one state (Metagame), and then is compared against someone else from a different state (Another Pokemon in another metagame). So here, we can compare Venusaur to Breloom if we consider their performance relative to their tiers and comparing THOSE two.


it is relevant. it makes venusaur a better illustration of the support characteristics. it shows that he is more potent and definitely not one sided and can do plenty things outside of simply sleep powdering + leaf storming stuff. but i straw away from stiff comparisons between uu and ou pokemon, i just can't do it because the pokemon switching in are different.
No, it isn't. Again, the Support Characteristic says NOTHING about this. I would like to remind you of your previous nomination of Dugtrio. If the Support Characteristic has anything to with versatility, Dugtrio should not have been nominated since he is probably, after Wobbuffet, one of the most one-dimensional Pokemon in existance. It is a complete contradiction here.

I could answer some of the later bits, but they are mostly answered by what I have already said, so yeah.

The major difference here is that Breloom is incredibly slow in its respective metagame, threatens less, and is nowhere close to bulky, not to mention Grass/Fighting is resisted by anything with wings. Also, let's not forget there are OUs strong enough to take the sleep and KO on the spot, like Celebi and Zapdos. OU is a stronger metagame in general, so it can handle even a 100% chance to sleep better than UU can handle 75%.
None of what you said are directly relevant to the Support Characteristic, but collectively, they hold more weight, so I'll answer them one by one.
1) Breloom's speed: Doesn't matter since there is a whole truckload of Pokemon he can switch into that are slower than him and incapacitate with Spore (Assuming 252 Spe Adamant). This includes: Base 100s that don't invest in speed, 216 Timid Magnezone, Scizor, Tyranitar (non-Jolly), Abomasnow, Metagross, no speed Rotom-A, etc etc. The point is that there are still plenty of slower Pokemon that he can do his thing on.
2) Threatens less: Venusaur actually doesn't directly threaten that many things without Sleep Powder (At least not many more than Breloom anyway). He is threatening to what, bulky Waters, bulky Grass, bulky Grounds, which is exactly what Breloom is threatening to (Apart from bulky Grass, which you can easily replace with bulky Steel minus Jirachi).
3) Less bulky: Breloom is bulky enough with enough resistances to abuse to do his job.
4) Grass/Fighting resisted by "winged" Pokemon: Tell me this when you switch into Stealth Rock and lose at least 50-60% (Accounting for 25%, of course). Or, alternatively, you can tell me this when your Flying Pokemon gets roflstomped by Stone Edge.
5) Take Sleep and OHKO back: WHAT?! How can you OHKO me when you're asleep and don't carry Sleep Talk???!!!! (Taking into account that Celebi and Zapdos hardly ever run Sleep Talk). Anyway, Celebi and Zapdos are good Breloom counters, just like how Registeel and Weezing are good "counters" to Venusaur. Your Celebi or Zapdos can potentially lose if you stay asleep long enough, too (If you're running Speed, you get killed faster, and if you're carrying bulk, Breloom would just Sub, take your attack and put you to sleep when you wake up again).
 

SJCrew

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1) Breloom's speed: Doesn't matter since there is a whole truckload of Pokemon he can switch into that are slower than him and incapacitate with Spore (Assuming 252 Spe Adamant). This includes: Base 100s that don't invest in speed, 216 Timid Magnezone, Scizor, Tyranitar (non-Jolly), Abomasnow, Metagross, no speed Rotom-A, etc etc. The point is that there are still plenty of slower Pokemon that he can do his thing on.
No, it does matter. It matters a shitload. Sometimes Breloom can't even get out of the starting gate because of how incredibly slow it is. If I start a sweep, Breloom can't end it because it doesn't have the bulk to survive any attack whatsover. That's way different from Venusaur. Venusaur threatens a lot of UUs, can survive attacks, and OHKO right off the bat.

Breloom has a nice little gimmick that works well enough for it to be OU, but it has to be under the right circumstances in order to pose any offensive threat, unlike Venusaur. You can't Focus Punch if you're not under a sub, and Seed Bomb isn't anywhere near as good a secondary attack in OU as Sludge Bomb is in UU.

2) Threatens less: Venusaur actually doesn't directly threaten that many things without Sleep Powder (At least not many more than Breloom anyway). He is threatening to what, bulky Waters, bulky Grass, bulky Grounds, which is exactly what Breloom is threatening to (Apart from bulky Grass, which you can easily replace with bulky Steel minus Jirachi).
Absol
Aggron
Alakazam
Altaria
Ambipom
Arcanine
Azumarill
Blastoise
Blaziken
Chansey
Claydol
Clefable
Cloyster
Donphan
Drapion
Dugtrio
Feraligatr
Hariyama*
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Houndoom
Kabutops
Lanturn
Leafeon
Ludicolo
Mesprit
Milotic
Miltank
Mismagius*
Moltres
Nidoking
Omastar
Poliwrath
Regirock
Registeel
Rhyperior
Rotom
Sceptile
Scyther
Slowbro
Slowking
Spiritomb
Steelix
Swellow
Tangrowth
Torterra*
Toxicroak
Uxie
Venusaur
Weezing

Bold: Anything Venusaur outspeeds/survives a hit from and KOs.
Italics: Any thing that threatens Venusaur, but can be KOed on the switch-in.
*: Set dependent

The numbers speak for themselves. That's not including any of Venusaur's other sets or the number of Pokemon vulnerable to Sleep Powder (everything).

As for Breloom, there aren't a lot of bulky Water or Ground types in OU, much less ones it can safely switch in on. Suicune is often faster and carries Ice Beam and it can't really do anything to Empoleon once it has a sub or Agility up. The number of Pokemon that threaten Breloom outnumber the number of Pokemon that Breloom itself can threaten. This is nothing at all like Venusaur.

WHAT?! How can you OHKO me when you're asleep and don't carry Sleep Talk???!!!!
Switch in on Spore.

Sleep 1: Sub.
Sleep 2: Focus Punch doesn't KO.
Sleep 3: Focus Punch doesn't KO.
Sleep 4: Focus Punch doesn't KO, break the Sub, outspeed and OHKO. Zapdos and Celebi only need 16 speed EVs on a neutral nature to outspeed Breloom. Psychic and Heat Wave have a 100% chance to KO with no Sp. Att EVs.

Again, you people need to cool it with all of these loose comparisons that claim other Pokemon should be broken if Venusaur is. There is nothing UU or OU that can effectively pose a threat to the entire tier with one set the way Venusaur does. We shouldn't even be doing OU comparisons to begin with.
 
Exeggutor has way better Sp. Att, so there's really no point to running SD, and it's reflective of why no one does to begin with. Shiftry is the best SD sweeper in the Sun anyway because he doesn't automatically become useless death fodder when the sunlight wears off.
Sorry this is a bit late, but I wanted to throw it out there. The part in the red I have to disagree with, and the part in the green is truth.

Swords Dance Exeggutor has its merits, mostly for its ability to break through many defensive cores (Weezing+Chansey came to mind immediately) with Wood Hammer/Zen Headbutt/Low Kick. Adamant Exeggutor is only 2 points off Timid Leafeon's attack score, which is considered powerful enough to run a SD set with an overall weaker set. For me the ability to run Zen Headbutt as a secondary STAB is worthy of running a SD set. I really dislike Shiftry's options for his physical dark-type moves (base 60 or shaky priority) which has always made me wary of his physical abilities. SD Exeggutor is a lot like SD Ludicolo in that it often puts the opponent in that "Oh shit" position. It's not flawless by any means, but I think it has better chances of breaking defenses.

Stuff about Venusaur
^ This.

EDIT:

v This too.
 

Upstart

Copy Cat
I too laughed at the one star.

To the guy not seeing milotic you must not be playing enough or something because I literally see milotic on everyteam. As for Venusaur I am not sure if I don't notice as much because I don't have much trouble with it or if I just don't see as that many.
 
I have been playing UU for awhile now, and I honestly cannot remember a time where i have faced a team without a venusaur twice in a row, excluding rematches with people that use NU teams. Milotic is slighty rarer (in my experiences), as I have had a few streches where I didnt see one for awhile.

(Btw, I dont know why everyone is saying Saur is so versatile. 80% of the ones i have faced were standard special LO, while the others were the SD set. neither of which i have a problem against.)
 

Meru

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I'm seeing about 70% special LO sets, 20% special tank leech seed sets, and 10% physical sets.
 
Ok, I see this thread is just burting with excitement! xD

Anyway, I'm a little out of touch with the current state of the metagame because I haven't played in close to a month, maybe longer. So, would anyone like to fill me in on some common trends or strategies? I wanted to stalk a few people, but I haven't seen any leaderboarders or good players on. Thanks in advance! ^_^
 

Upstart

Copy Cat
Honestly the basic team involves a FWG core and a ghost, with a stealth rocker, the last pokemon is a filler. Spiritomb and Mismagius are playing hard for the top ghost will be interesting who was used more. Houndoom Arcanine and Moltres vie for fire type with the rare ninetails jumping in for a go. I personally haven't seen many blaziken. Water comes down to Milotic Azumaril with Lanturn on the rise. Each used for very different jobs but bulky waters none the less. Grass is primarily Venusaur obviously but Leafeon and Torterra are showing themselves off as threats. Personally I am finding Leafeon to be on the rise as I see less Venusaur. As far as leads go Ambipom seems to be on top but still alot of diversity from uxie to glalie.

Oh and another trend are scyther U-turn teams are pretty popular.
 

Arcticblast

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Honestly the basic team involves a FWG core and a ghost, with a stealth rocker, the last pokemon is a filler. Spiritomb and Mismagius are playing hard for the top ghost will be interesting who was used more. Houndoom Arcanine and Moltres vie for fire type with the rare ninetails jumping in for a go. I personally haven't seen many blaziken. Water comes down to Milotic Azumaril with Lanturn on the rise. Each used for very different jobs but bulky waters none the less. Grass is primarily Venusaur obviously but Leafeon and Torterra are showing themselves off as threats. Personally I am finding Leafeon to be on the rise as I see less Venusaur. As far as leads go Ambipom seems to be on top but still alot of diversity from uxie to glalie.

Oh and another trend are scyther U-turn teams are pretty popular.
What he said, basically. UU is pretty stale however. Use some NU like Rampardos or Ampharos. Rain is also very powerful and somewhat popular, although it is a high-risk, high-reward playstyle. <hopes for no more Rain discussion>
 

Meru

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Sharpedo anti-lead. With a moveset of Surf/Crunch/Taunt/Coverage move, you can utilize it well with SR weak sweepers.

Only complaint I have about it is that it takes 80 base power from Grass Knot. Sharpedo is in the same weight category as fat@$$ Charizard? Really?
 
I would like to disagree. UU is very fun right now, as you can use a wide variety of pokemon. I have successfully used things like mantine, tauros, and drifblim (especially my driblim lead, who is the best lead i have ever used.). I also see more Blaziken than Moltres. Qwilfish leads are beginning to become very common, as are donphan. Toxicroaks have been suprisingly rare recently, along with chansey.

Lanturn and Gardevoir are both very good pokemon to use right now. Lanturn can set up on Milotic (without HP Grass), Registeel, and Chansey very easily. Gardevoir can OHKO Venusaur (Speed Tie!), 2HKO Milotic (thunderbolt), and 2HKO (i might be wrong on this one) Registeel with Focus Blast. Gardevoir also traces Swift Swim and becomes a good check to rain teams. That was a 252 Sp Atk/252 Spd Expert Belt set btw.
 

Arcticblast

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Sharpedo anti-lead. With a moveset of Surf/Crunch/Taunt/Coverage move, you can utilize it well with SR weak sweepers.

Only complaint I have about it is that it takes 80 base power from Grass Knot. Sharpedo is in the same weight category as fat@$$ Charizard? Really?
What was your nature/spread? I was thinking Hasty, max Speed (duh), and HP Grass. Outspeeds common Uxie, Mesprit, Cloyster, Omastar,
 

Meru

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What was your nature/spread? I was thinking Hasty, max Speed (duh), and HP Grass. Outspeeds common Uxie, Mesprit, Cloyster, Omastar,
Oh I wasn't using it but max speed for sure, and I'd think enough special EV's to kill Cloyster with HP grass, then the rest in attack to hammer Uxie/Mesprit as hard as possible. Really not sure why it's not on top 10 leads since it's similiar to a Machamp level of difficulty to switch into (imo)

Obviously you lose to Ambipom so team up with something that gets an easy switch into Ambipom while also preventing other common SR users like Registeel and Chansey from coming in.
 
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