NU Suspect Discussion

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KK we're just going to vote on Scolipede and Jynx, not Charizard. Have fun :D
Wait so are we casting votes right now? I thought you were choosing a small band of stronk players to vote..

Either way, I think this hasn't been touched on enough, but I feel that Scolipede is also broken in it's baton passing shenanigans. If it is able to pull off a Sub + SD + Salac (or a combination of any 2 of those), which is highly likely due to the switches it forces on namely grass and fighting types, as well as frail quick attackers. By doing such, it acts as a reliable baton passer, throwing a slew of boosts to any counterpart, not only sweeping on it's own, but as well as allowing a partner to continue it's sweep reliably, gives another reason why Scolipede is so potent in the NU metagame. Although Scolipede viably only has 4 (arguably 6 if we count Pursuit and Superpower) viable moves to choose from it's movepool, it still is a toss up on what coverage it carries, making it still unpredictable in the metagame.

I still say ban a 100 legged retard to BL3 imo.
 
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I think people started discussing Charizard principally because it feels like a consensus has already been reached about the other two, that Scolipede will be banished to BL3 and Jynx is likely to follow suit.

Maybe, having come late to the tier and having never experienced an NU without Jynx, I don't fully appreciate how much she has warped the metagame. But I can certainly see that, for example, it's a metagame where 90 base speed is way slower than 100, where seemingly powerful Ice-types like Regice and Rotom-F are generally passed over because there is not much reason to use them over Jynx, where, even disregarding the gimmicks mentioned above, Skuntank runs Lum Berry, Metang runs Bullet Punch, Samurott often runs Megahorn even on its special-attacking sets, etc, specifically for her.

Meanwhile, apart from seeing a grounded Poison-type on every team, Scolipede seemingly hasn't shaped NU to the same degree. Because it's so impossible to suppress that most players have given up trying.
 
Well, I'm not very known, but I played a ton of NU last generation. Scolipede was very dangerous last gen, 2HKOing the tier's premier Physical wall, Alomomola. It can run now even more sets, Sweeper, Hazards Setting, or just plain Baton Passing. Honestly, Scolipede WILL be leaving the tier, no matter what. Jynx, on the other hand, I'm iffy about. It is powerful, has nice STABs, Nasty Plot and Sleep, but it is so fucking frail. I have a feeling it will be very close in no ban / ban.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Sorry for the wall of China that follows.

After some consideration I have shifted my opinion a bit. Now I believe that Jynx should not be banned.

A lot of the arguments have been based on how Jynx has a combination of Speed, power, and Lovely Kiss that pressurizes the opponent and disables its checks without much risk to the user. However, my argument will be based on how using Jynx itself requires a large amount of skill and prediction. Because of Sleep Clause, simply using Lovely Kiss is not an option because there's a large opportunity cost of not being able to put something to sleep. Jynx requires Lovely Kiss to check a lot of things, and putting the wrong thing to sleep is sometimes bad for Jynx. A good example I can think of is Jynx vs Ludicolo. A lot of teams use Jynx as their only Ludicolo check, but really, Jynx is very reliant on Lovely Kiss to check it. However, the Jynx user will then be very pressurized not to use Lovely Kiss any other time or risk getting wrecked by Ludicolo, and must ensure that he predicts perfectly such that Sleep Clause isn't wasted on something else. Even if Ludicolo does get put to sleep, most teams have multiple checks to Jynx which all can't be put to sleep at once, and it's not like they're difficult to fit in, so the Jynx user must 1) weigh out what he needs to get rid of, and 2) predict as accurately as possible to get that thing out of the way. Even when he does, Jynx isn't going to be unstoppable because multiple checks to it exist. Here are a list of things that can potentially check or counter Jynx and can switch into at least one of its moves and beat it from there:
Skuntank
Ludicolo
Charizard
Metang
Charizard
Kangaskhan
Tauros
Scolipede
Grumpig
Hypno
Muk
Scraggy
Swellow
Gurdurr
Munchlax
Liepard
Bronzor


Here are a list of Pokemon that can beat Jynx depending on what set it is using:
Everything listed above
Any Steel-type
Anything that resists its moves (if Scarf)
Piloswine
Lickilicky
Audino
Regice
Most offensive Water-types
Most offensive Fire-types
Most Scarf Pokemon
Anything faster than it


It's not like any of those Pokemon are difficult to find on most teams. Sure, they can't switch in safely all the time, but other Pokemon like Electabuzz, Swanna, and Floatzel have similar coverage, power, and Speed and are hard to switch into, but aren't broken for that reason. Lovely Kiss does bring Jynx to a higher up level, but most of the arguments here treat it like Lovely Kiss is a skillless move that can be used any time, but that usually isn't the case because Jynx relies on it a lot to check its opponents and most good teams carry at least 2 checks to Jynx, so the Jynx user must actually consider when the appropriate time to use Lovely Kiss is. And it's not like having to carry more than 1 check to something makes it broken; a lot of teams without Musharna or Misdreavus are able to handle Sawk well by carrying 2 things that check it.

Another point that was surprisingly not brought up at all was that Jynx is extremely frail and has very few opportunities to actually do work. This was the main reason why Jynx wasn't banned the last time and I believe not much has changed. I think we can all agree that Jynx has lots of trouble switching into the battlefield because a lot of neutral hits can either harm it severely or even outright KO it. This is especially so as the metagame is relatively more offensive in nature, and I am sure we all agree that applying large amounts of offensive pressure is a good Jynx check in a sense that Jynx cannot switch in safely. Thus it often has to resort to switching into resisted or Water-type moves, saccing a teammate, or using slow Volt Switches.

However, switching into a resisted move or a Water-type Pokemon is not easy at all. Firstly, there comes the part about predicting the opponent to actually use these moves, which is where the skill comes into play, because against other skilled opponents, Water-type moves won't be spammed as easily. There is then a high amount of thinking and prediction involved in this, which promotes skillful play. Then, even of Jynx manages to switch into a Water-type move, most of the common Water-type Pokemon have a way to beat Jynx afterwards and most of them are bulky or fast enough to check it. The same goes with resisted hits, except that these resisted hits are going to take a huge chunk out of Jynx's HP, and coupled with the Stealth Rock weakness, Jynx will not live long and the Jynx user must consider the risk and rewards of switching Jynx in to such a resisted move and weigh it out to see if it's a good option. Again, this not only shows that Jynx can't switch in easily and therefore doesn't get many chances to do its job, it also promotes skillful play between both players which is good for the metagame. As for saccing a teammate to bring Jynx in, this is often a 1 for 1 exchange where Jynx comes in after a teammate faints and either defeats or cripples its opponent, and the opponent is then free to send in a check to force Jynx out. Rarely does Jynx get more than one kill every time it comes in because many teams carry multiple checks to it like they do for other top threats like Sawk and Charizard. And finally, slow Volt Switches, U-turns or Baton Passes are definitely good ways to bring Jynx in, but it also shows good teambuilding skills on the Jynx user's part and does not prove anything about Jynx being broken.

Even with Jynx's huge problem of switching in without saccing, there exists a weakness called Stealth Rock, which is present on almost all good teams and isn't actually very easy to stop from going up in practice. Every Jynx set suffers from Stealth Rock weakness a ton: Scarf sets are switching in and out often, so the user must carefully decide which move is the safest and best to lock Jynx into (and using Lovely Kiss means a guaranteed switch out the next turn); Life Orb sets are worn down even more quickly, so the user must make the most out of Jynx's time in the field; SubNP has Substitute to wear it down even more and cannot really switch in early to mid-game because of its lack of coverage; Focus Sash sets need even more careful play if the sash is to be preserved. As such, Jynx gets even less opportunities to switch into the battlefield every game and the user must weigh very carefully how much mileage he would get out of every time he sends Jynx in, what move he should use such that he wouldn't be forced out, what to switch into, etc. This also encourages smart teambuilding because the user would then be forced to think of teammates that would help Jynx remove some of its roadblocks so that Jynx isn't forced out as often.

Jynx isn't as riskless to use as a lot of people seem to imply by saying that Speed, power, and Lovely Kiss can immediately disable a lot of threats, and in fact does encourage skillful play by both sides. I don't know how much this will change should Scolipede leave and Jynx remain in the tier, but for now, I am quite convinced that Jynx should remain in the tier and it is not broken.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Eviolite Metang: 175-206 (54.01 - 63.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means that Jynx has to 1) predict the Metang switch in 2) hit Lovely Kiss 3) set up Nasty Plot 4) hit 2 Focus Blasts while hoping Metang doesn't wake up on either turn, which has a pretty low chance of happening if you ask me.
 
You still cannot argue with the fact that something does go to sleep. More often than not, it'll likely be an important check to Jynx, otherwise you are taking a gigantic risk of something taking significant damage or being OHKOed from Jynx's moves. This fact is what other sweepers would die to have; Jynx immediately takes control of the game and you have to predict right to prevent it from causing serious harm. I mean, yes, the Jynx user does have to make a decision themselves if they want to sleep something or attack and to determine what target should be put to sleep, but the person against Jynx has to essentially make the same coinflip decision and evaluate what needs to be used as sleep fodder, if Jynx opts for that move to begin with. Furthermore, it's not like if Jynx sleeps the wrong target that it's a bad thing. A sleeping target is a sleeping target, it's nothing less than a liability. It can be taken advantage of by Jynx and the rest of its team. Sometimes, it's actually worse being put to sleep than to be outright OHKOed for this reason. This is where the whole 2-for-1 deal seals it with Jynx; you are free to put something to sleep and temporarily, or even permanently, "kill" it, while smacking something hard or setting up follows right after.

I'm not sure why you think Jynx is the only check people carry to Ludicolo. I mean, likewise with people carrying multiple (shaky) checks to Jynx, people will often carry a few checks to other Pokemon as well, Ludicolo included. Even then, Jynx still has a decent shot at overcoming Ludicolo depending on the circumstances, so it's not as if Ludicolo is always going to win against Jynx if Jynx has slept something, even though it may appear that way. You've basically outlined a specific scenario that assumes the user with Jynx has a team that cannot adequately deal with Ludicolo and thus relies on Jynx to sleep it, while this isn't always going to be the case in practice.

Actually, it's not that hard to flip your argument and say that the team facing Jynx is immediately pressured because they need to determine what to switch in to be sacrificed or put to sleep, which could make it even harder to check Jynx, or anything else for that matter, later on. I understand that this kind of pressure can be applied to literally any sweeper in terms of what it's going to do, but the fact that Jynx has access to Lovely Kiss stands itself out amongst its competition as an offensive powerhouse. When considering two battlers that are each making skillful plays, the user of Jynx pretty much gives it an immediate advantage that many other fast and strong Pokemon that you mentioned don't have, due to its speed, power and type coverage, and access to a fairly reliable sleep move that can neutralize its checks or counters. Lastly, it's not that hard to find such opportunities given that the tier relies on a decent amount of slower Pokemon, regardless of what playstyle the team is, that Jynx can capitalize on.

To end, I do agree that Jynx isn't this easy-to-use and a "free win" type of Pokemon, as it does have its fair share of shortcomings that the opponent can take advantage of, such as its physical frailty; however, I genuinely believe that the fact that it forces teams to carry at the least two checks, if not more, due to Lovely Kiss seriously restricts teambuilding. In competent hands, it's simply an overwhelming Pokemon that shaped the metagame to revolve around itself, and if you don't carry many reliable responses (there isn't that many to begin with outside of gimmicks and generally ineffective Pokemon, given its power and type coverage), you're going to struggling. I can't seem to understand how people don't find it to be an unhealthy and restrictive Pokemon, because it is.
 
I always had the same opinion about Jynx, for me is ban worthy tbh.

Jynx is an extremely large unpredictable mon with a great coverage that hits everything effective or neutral at worst, even at physically defensive side with Psyshock which is very useful to SpD tanks which have a poor physical defense; their coverage is only weathered by Thick Fat Grumpig otherwise would get murdered by STAB Ice Beam also kinda needs Power Gem to 2HKO Jynx w/ SR up :/
Lovely Kiss is a very safe move for which is playing with Jynx, makes an huge advantage since early game when you're using Jynx because the opponent player is taking a big risk to deal with their LK choosing a mon to get sleep - If you decides go with a mon that get HKO by Jynx such Torterra you're taking a very risky play, otherwise you'll need sacrifice a check of Jynx to get sleep which means that you are gonna handle worst Jynx and losing momentum against your opponent. LK + Nasty Plot with Substitute is scary, if your opponent team is kinda bulky offense and slow with a very decent ice resist probably you're gonna sweep him with this set, LK + Substitute get a free turn to setupp with Nasty Plot if your opponent decides go with a faster thing he can lose one of their best RK to Jynx for a future in the battle, if he decides gonna go with a slow things you probably will be HKO or 2HKO which means if you get HKO you get sweep by this Jynx set forcing to sacrifice your best checks for Jynx, best way to deal with this set are steels like Metang, Klang or Bastiodon - some of them are kinda niche like Klang or Bastiodon - also we are speaking about Jynx w/o a single support only by itself; when Magnet Pull Probopass is a excelent temmate for mono attacker Jynx to kill the steel types which can counter him or for the Scarf set in a late game, Scarf Jynx is also one of the best Scarfers in the NU metagame with tricky moves like LK + Trick, great check to things like Carracosta Shell Smash.

In summary, from my experience playing with Jynx and against Jynx teams you need sacrifice a lot of your teambuilder effort to handle Jynx just not using some mediocre things like Munchlax or Grumpig if not playing around Jynx overall is that makes you sacrifice and forced your teambuilder playing against Jynx, like using 2~3 faster things than Jynx at least (base 95 is actually fast for NU tier, lotta faster things are garbage), 2 or 3 resist to tank spam Ice Beam, a Lum Berry mon such Skuntank, Samurott or Golem if sturdy, some priority effective or neutrals against Jynx, sometimes faster Pursuit mons like Scolipede or Tauros which anyways loses vs Scarf Jynx and you're wasting a slot for Jynx.

More about Jynx / Scolipede later ~
 
Don't do this.
Jynx isn't banworthy. I'm not going to exhaust brain cells because the last time I made an effortpost in an NU discussion, it wasn't worth it at all. When you build a team you should be building around massive threats, not bitching about them.
 
Jynx isn't banworthy. I'm not going to exhaust brain cells because the last time I made an effortpost in an NU discussion, it wasn't worth it at all. When you build a team you should be building around massive threats, not bitching about them.
I have read your posts, and they made some good points (for others reading, the posts were made in the AssistPard suspect discussion). Yes, you may have been disappointed that, ultimately, the suspect test went against your personal opinion, but that does not make it a wasted post.

On the other hand, just stating your opinion with little to no reasoning IS a wasted post.
 

Django

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Regarding Scolipede, something which hasn't been discussed is the fact that, as with any hazard setter, you are giving your opponent free turns to do what they want - switch in dangerous sweepers, set up hazards of their own etc etc. If you can use those turns to your advantage (i.e. get more out of them then the other team does with hazards) then you've "beaten" that Pokemon. The difficulty with Scolipede, I feel, is the very limited options not only for dealing with the Spikes later on, but for actually taking advantage of the free turns Spikes gives you. Since it has such great offensive presence it becomes really hard to switch in sweepers and attempt to set up, outside of like Carracosta. Setting up your own hazards is great, but you still often end up behind as common SR users like Golem or Golurk are still afraid of Aqua Tail. I feel Scolipede would be balanced if there were more options for taking advantage of it like this, but with the current state of NU I just don't feel there are enough ways to punish it for setting up Spikes. It's a pretty important part of considering a hazards Poke broken or not, so looking at ways to punish Scolipede could be an interesting conversation, but I really don't think there are enough. It's simply too fast and too powerful.
 
Possible Pokemon that can set up against Scolipede: Bulk Up Gurdurr, Nasty Plot Misdreavus, Sub BU Braviary if Scolipede lacks Rock Slide, and Shift Gear Klang, Curse Muk and Coil Arbok if it lacks Earthquake. I'm not sure whether these are good answers though. In addition, they have to be wary that Scolipede can boost alongside them with Swords Dance.
 
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About Scolipede I have more doubts about him than with Jynx. In terms of potential by itself with the Sword Dance versions, All-Out Attacker etc is clearly not broken because Stealth Rock weakness, physical tanks such Golurk, Regirock or Golem can deal with him without a lot of problems and finally Scarf users are a good options to kill Scolipede in the worst case.

Problem here, is at this tier with the lacking of good spinners - for real, no reasons to use Torkoal or Armaldo in NU, both spinner are pretty bad. The only really "good spinner" in terms of spinning and against the opposite team is Wartortle which lacks of recovery (no recover or softoboiled and not leftovers neither) which means that get down very fast, lack of power so relies in Foresight to beat opposite ghost types, just saying even using the best spinner in NU you'll need play with him very smart because get down very fast, relies at prediction if your opponent is using a ghost type and usually is a waste on your team because lacks of power, predictable, very slow and lotta things can setupp actually on Wartortle (which even lacks of Roar !_!), so the only good ones reason to use it in a team is because you're using a Charizard team or another well builded team with a big weakness to Stealth Rock which needs seriously handle this or in a full stall team, overall Wartortle is a niche pokemon so cant fill well at every team -- the only good way at the paper to handle Spikes/Toxic Spikes from Scolipede, in the practise is harder even using Wartortle.

A well played Scolipede at least can get 2 layer of Spikes and actually have a shot to use Spikes/Toxic Spikes different times like against Gurdurr, Alomomola, Metang, Vileplume, Skuntank or anothers Scolipede, actually the things that does better with pressure against Spikes Scolipede get raped by the LO SD varians.

Overall better way to handle Scolipede is with mons like Rock Blast lead Golem or Stone Edge Piloswine with Ice Shard, otherwise limited yourself using slow and bulky things on your teams because then is when Scolipede really shines and extremely dangerous.
 
I know Raseri decided that Charizard won't be voted on at this time, but I wanted to mention really quickly that I do believe that both Scolipede and Jynx leaving the tier would make Charizard infinitely easier to check. First off, without insanely fast Spikes everywhere, it becomes far more easy to switch in potential checks without just straight up getting 2HKOed. And without Jynx in the tier, running bulky Water-types is much less of a liability because you can much more safely spam Water-type attacks without the fear of Jynx coming in for free.

But I digress because it's really not that relevant to the subject at hand. :)

Hot N Cold mentioned that a well played Scolipede can get up at least two layers of Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes against a variety of threats, and this is something that I outlined in my original post which really make it clear to me that Scolipede is too hard on NU. He specifically mentioned Gurdurr, Alomomola, Metang, Vileplume, Skuntank, and other Scolipede, which are all very true. In fact, a lot of my games with offensive Scolipede led to Scolipede vs. Scolipede setting up Spikes on one another eventually, whether it was at the very beginning or later on in the match. What makes it especially difficult is that it's rarely as easy as leading with your Rock Blast Golem and praying for the best. Scolipede can almost always just switch out and come back later against pretty much every that isn't Musharna or the rare Brave Bird Mandibuzz or a bulky Rock-type and set up again.

I also totally agree with Django. Even bulkier Scolipede sets still hit relatively hard. Having a 120 BP STAB is going to do that for you. The Pokemon that noobcubed listed are also generally subpar in this metagame, with exceptions going out to Misdreavus, Braviary, and to an extent Klang. But even then, any Klang barring CroKlang is going to despise coming in to try to take advantage of the free turns because it relies heavily on its bulk and not its power in order to set up, so as long as you've still got something to smash through Klang (which you should that early on into the match), the Klang user isn't going to be at an advantage because they'll likely be forced to switch.

Jynx is still a really difficult one for me. People bring up good points on both sides, and in my practical experience against it and when preparing for it, I rarely thought, "wow, this thing is clearly too problematic." One of the biggest issues I've had with Jynx is that Choice Scarf sets can cripple its checks in two different ways: both with Trick and with Lovely Kiss. This is also what makes Jynx so effective against so many playstyles. Against more defensive and bulky teams, it can Trick its Choice Scarf onto its best checks, which never enjoy losing their item and especially despise gaining a Choice Scarf. Then against more offensive teams, it doesn't need to worry about Tricking its Choice Scarf and can instead just go balls to the wall offensively. Life Orb sets have no reliable counters, but this alone won't convince me that Jynx is banworthy. It's the combination of the power of all of its sets that really makes me reconsider my stance on it. It isn't even about Jynx's unpredictability, because I honestly don't find this to be an issue when handling it. The only things you really need to scout for while you're checking Jynx is whether or not it has Focus Blast. If it doesn't, you can check it with Probopass and Klang, and if it does, you can't. It's really that simple because everything that checks Jynx otherwise can do so against all of its sets, just that some can obviously do it better than others. Choice Scarf or just generally fast Pursuit users can also handle Jynx to an extent, but I've never liked using Choiced Pursuit because it completely forfeits any momentum you had and opens up a switch for the opponent to set up.
scorpdestroyer said:
It's not like any of those Pokemon are difficult to find on most teams. Sure, they can't switch in safely all the time, but other Pokemon like Electabuzz, Swanna, and Floatzel have similar coverage, power, and Speed and are hard to switch into, but aren't broken for that reason. Lovely Kiss does bring Jynx to a higher up level, but most of the arguments here treat it like Lovely Kiss is a skillless move that can be used any time, but that usually isn't the case because Jynx relies on it a lot to check its opponents and most good teams carry at least 2 checks to Jynx, so the Jynx user must actually consider when the appropriate time to use Lovely Kiss is. And it's not like having to carry more than 1 check to something makes it broken; a lot of teams without Musharna or Misdreavus are able to handle Sawk well by carrying 2 things that check it.
I really don't agree with this line of thinking that much. The problem here is that Jynx has so many more benefits over Pokemon such as Electabuzz, Swanna, and Floatzel. The most obvious one is its amazing STAB coverage. In NU, the only things that resist it are Steel-types, which are hit by Focus Blast, Grumpig, Shedinja, Sneasel, which is hit by Focus Blast, and opposing Jynx. Outside of that, you can run insane gimmicks such as Houndour (miss you shnen) or Carvanha, but that's pretty much all you've got. Aside from its amazing STAB, Jynx obviously also has Lovely Kiss, which has been explained at length already. I do agree with you that it cannot just be spammed because of how crucial Lovely Kiss is in handling Jynx, but consider this: you can swap in your best Jynx check. If your opponent decides to put that to sleep, it has done its job. If they attack, you could obviously double switch out into something for sleep fodder, but at that point, you're put into an uncomfortable position. What do you want to do? Go back to your main Jynx check and, in doing so, forfeit momentum while your opponent may (and should) double switch, as it's completely safe for them to do so, or risk Jynx staying in and losing your sleep fodder, only to allow it to put something else to sleep? This is the kind of effect Jynx can have on a battle. It forces nasty mind-games where, if you make a mistake, you'll probably lose a Pokemon or at least have one severely crippled, while the Jynx user loses absolutely nothing at all. Also, in terms of raw stats, Jynx still has the edge over the ones you listed in terms of attacking prowess. The comparison to Sawk is also a poor one for the reason I just stated about the mind-games Jynx plays. Sure, you'll have some mind-games with Sawk (which move will they lock into?), but these are nothing compared to the ones that Jynx forces. Sawk is also notably slower than Jynx, which opens up the number of checks to it.
scorpdestroyer said:
Another point that was surprisingly not brought up at all was that Jynx is extremely frail and has very few opportunities to actually do work. This was the main reason why Jynx wasn't banned the last time and I believe not much has changed. I think we can all agree that Jynx has lots of trouble switching into the battlefield because a lot of neutral hits can either harm it severely or even outright KO it.
I actually have some problems with this line of thinking as well. What you fail to consider is that there are more ways to get Jynx into play than simply just switching it in. Probably the best partner for Jynx, Probopass, provides Jynx with a slow Volt Switch so that it can get in and threaten the opponent. There are also other slow Volt Switch, U-turn, and Baton Pass users that can assist Jynx in getting onto the field. It can also of course come in on a revenge kill, and sacrificing something to get Jynx in isn't always such a bad thing when it has the potential to put something to sleep and kill something else in its time on the field. There are plenty of other Pokemon that are similar to Jynx in this regard. Probably the most notable one is Zangoose, which really needs to find that free switch in order to activate its Toxic Orb. You rarely if ever see a Zangoose come in any other way than on a double switch or on a slow U-turn or Volt Switch, and while it does hamper its effectiveness, it doesn't stop it from being such an incredible force in the metagame because slow pivots are really common in this tier.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I think it's important to consider what's going to happen in an actual game vs. what appears to be the case on paper.
noobcubed said:
Maybe, having come late to the tier and having never experienced an NU without Jynx, I don't fully appreciate how much she has warped the metagame. But I can certainly see that, for example, it's a metagame where 90 base speed is way slower than 100, where seemingly powerful Ice-types like Regice and Rotom-F are generally passed over because there is not much reason to use them over Jynx, where, even disregarding the gimmicks mentioned above, Skuntank runs Lum Berry, Metang runs Bullet Punch, Samurott often runs Megahorn even on its special-attacking sets, etc, specifically for her.
To be fair, those were always standard sets. Skuntank's Lum Berry allows it to more reliably handle Misdreavus, which can Will-O-Wisp it, and Musharna, which can Thunder Wave or Yawn it. Priority is priority, and even moderately weak Steel priority is still nice to have to finish off weakened opponents. Samurott's Megahorn is also notable for 2HKOing offensive Ludicolo, even with a -SpA nature. Probably important to mention these things because they won't just disappear without Jynx in the tier.

I think that's about everything I've got to say. I know I said a lot, but I'd like to think that most of what I said wasn't just repeated information.
 

scorpdestroyer

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I really don't agree with this line of thinking that much. The problem here is that Jynx has so many more benefits over Pokemon such as Electabuzz, Swanna, and Floatzel. The most obvious one is its amazing STAB coverage. In NU, the only things that resist it are Steel-types, which are hit by Focus Blast, Grumpig, Shedinja, Sneasel, which is hit by Focus Blast, and opposing Jynx. Outside of that, you can run insane gimmicks such as Houndour (miss you shnen) or Carvanha, but that's pretty much all you've got. Aside from its amazing STAB, Jynx obviously also has Lovely Kiss, which has been explained at length already. I do agree with you that it cannot just be spammed because of how crucial Lovely Kiss is in handling Jynx, but consider this: you can swap in your best Jynx check. If your opponent decides to put that to sleep, it has done its job. If they attack, you could obviously double switch out into something for sleep fodder, but at that point, you're put into an uncomfortable position. What do you want to do? Go back to your main Jynx check and, in doing so, forfeit momentum while your opponent may (and should) double switch, as it's completely safe for them to do so, or risk Jynx staying in and losing your sleep fodder, only to allow it to put something else to sleep? This is the kind of effect Jynx can have on a battle. It forces nasty mind-games where, if you make a mistake, you'll probably lose a Pokemon or at least have one severely crippled, while the Jynx user loses absolutely nothing at all. Also, in terms of raw stats, Jynx still has the edge over the ones you listed in terms of attacking prowess. The comparison to Sawk is also a poor one for the reason I just stated about the mind-games Jynx plays. Sure, you'll have some mind-games with Sawk (which move will they lock into?), but these are nothing compared to the ones that Jynx forces. Sawk is also notably slower than Jynx, which opens up the number of checks to it.
Firstly, I'd just like to point out that those threats I've mentioned are faster than Jynx and have perfect coverage for the tier as well. Charizard is another Pokemon that I forgot to bring up previously that also has similar power, coverage and Speed. Yet, I don't think any of them can be considered broken. Jynx may have really great coverage, power, and Speed but the opponent will also definitely have checks to Jynx that can switch into any one of its moves, similar to how the tier played when Charizard's Life Orb set was the most popular. Hence I don't think coverage, power, and speed can be a factor to determine a Pokemon's brokenness and it really boils down to Lovely Kiss.

I do not deny that Lovely Kiss will cause problems. However, like I said in my argument, Jynx relies a lot on Lovely Kiss to beat its checks. So, very often in battles the Jynx user would use Lovely Kiss against the most threatening opponent and thus use it sparingly. Even if Jynx does put something to sleep, most teams do have multiple checks to it which means the team doesn't auto-lose. Sure Lovely Kiss causes lots of mindgames, but using Lovely Kiss itself has a great deal of thinking involved and putting the wrong thing to sleep isn't a very good thing for the Jynx user because the main check can then come in many times and force Jynx out, which is never good for it like I said because it doesn't switch back in very often. Often times when I use Jynx and put the wrong thing to sleep, I feel very frustrated because Jynx will be prone to getting forced out by the thing I didn't put to sleep. If Jynx does put the right thing to sleep, good for it, but now it has to handle the other check.

Even when you don't include "beating its checks", Jynx also relies on Lovely Kiss to check a lot of troublesome opponents. This is especially so against anything it can't KO immediately because Jynx is so frail, it's either 1) kill that thing 2) put it to sleep or 3) die. Look at Pokemon such as Charizard, Samurott, Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Kangaskhan, Musharna, etc. Jynx would love to be able to sleep them all, but it's just not possible, so disabling a Jynx check is really not a big deal because then Jynx will struggle with Pokemon it cannot OHKO. Also, being asleep can be a liability, but sleeping Pokemon can still play a part by virtue of their typing. For example sleeping Metang and still come in and stop Jynx and CB Braviary, sleeping Seismitoad can still stop things like Rotom-S Volt Switch, etc. This isn't meant to be a main argument for why Lovely Kiss isn't good but just to say that a sleeping Pokemon isn't a complete liability sometimes which Fuzznip mentioned.

A lot of arguments so far, including Treecko's, have claimed that Jynx hardly loses anything, but in reality Jynx finds a lot of trouble switching in and out due to its weakness to Stealth Rock and frailty and thus has to make the most of its time on the battlefield. Being forced out by a check doesn't sound bad on paper but if you consider how Jynx doesn't get to switch in much without team support, coupled with the Stealth Rock weakness, it's actually not a very good thing. Additionally, not putting the correct thing to sleep can also be a bad thing for Jynx and her team because it means she has to get forced out more often and/or have her team threatened more often.

I actually have some problems with this line of thinking as well. What you fail to consider is that there are more ways to get Jynx into play than simply just switching it in. Probably the best partner for Jynx, Probopass, provides Jynx with a slow Volt Switch so that it can get in and threaten the opponent. There are also other slow Volt Switch, U-turn, and Baton Pass users that can assist Jynx in getting onto the field. It can also of course come in on a revenge kill, and sacrificing something to get Jynx in isn't always such a bad thing when it has the potential to put something to sleep and kill something else in its time on the field. There are plenty of other Pokemon that are similar to Jynx in this regard. Probably the most notable one is Zangoose, which really needs to find that free switch in order to activate its Toxic Orb. You rarely if ever see a Zangoose come in any other way than on a double switch or on a slow U-turn or Volt Switch, and while it does hamper its effectiveness, it doesn't stop it from being such an incredible force in the metagame because slow pivots are really common in this tier.
Having to sac a Pokemon to bring Jynx in just means that Jynx's user needs to plan out the risks and rewards of saving the mon and bringing Jynx in, because if the time isn't ripe for Jynx to wreck yet, it's generally not worth it. And as I said before, having Junx forced out by its checks means that the user will have to plan, weigh and risk more each time he tried to send Jynx in, and each set has problems that either force Jynx out more often or just accumulate residual damage more. And with Stealth Rock reducing its HP each time, the list of things that can KO Jynx just increases which means Jynx is more reliant on Lovely Kiss or has to switch more often.

Regarding slow pivots, the only ones I can think of that fit onto most teams are Musharna and Probopass. Both of them are really good, I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that Jynx is still prone to residual damage and still very frail and easily checked. In addition, using these moves aren't completely risk free as they can either be set up on or grant a free switch to Ground-types in Probopass's case. I'm not denying that these aren't good forms of support, but they aren't free of risk either and still require a certain level of skillful play to get Jynx into the field safely.
 
scorpdestroyer said:
However, like I said in my argument, Jynx relies a lot on Lovely Kiss to beat its checks.
I don't see how this is particularly relevant when it does beat its checks. The only time it really matters how it is beating its checks is if there are especially exploitable ways to get around it, which there obviously are in this case, but they are generally few and far between. Lum and Sleep Talk users still need to have enough bulk to tank a couple hits or at least enough Speed to outrun it.

Obviously Jynx would like to be able to put anything it can't OHKO to sleep, but it's really not as hard as you're making it out to be for Jynx to do its job. You specifically mentioned Charizard, Samurott, Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Kangaskhan, and Musharna, but none of these Pokemon can switch in. You have to remember that Jynx is almost always choosing its matchup because of its tendency to come in with the help of a slow pivot or on the revenge kill. I'm sure that despite this, the fact that it doesn't get switch-in opportunities as often as most Pokemon is one of the things that keeps Jynx from being broken in your mind, and I totally get that and agree that it does hold it back in practice. But the fact is that you're never going to come in on a Charizard or a Kangaskhan. You beat Ludicolo outright unless it has already set up the rain by the time you come in. You also beat non-Earthquake Seismitoad, which I realize isn't as common with Jynx around, but is still very relevant. Musharna can at best Thunder Wave you, which of course deters you from switching in, but also allows you to pull it off from time to time and put it to sleep. Samurott is a coin toss. On one hand, it can just outright kill you with Megahorn, and on the other hand, any other move it commonly carries it a free switch for it. Samurott also cannot switch into you safely, as it is 2HKO'd by Psychic and OHKO'd by Life Orb Psychic after either SR + a layer of Spikes or SR + a round of Life Orb recoil. What I'm getting at is that Jynx is not helpless vs. these Pokemon. Another thing to remember is that your sleep fodder needs to stay alive if you don't want Jynx to put something else to sleep later on. This means that you are indeed practically playing 5-6 when Jynx gets the chance to come in because if you hope to wake up, you'll either be severely damaged or just outright dead by the end of it, and you'll give the opponent time to do whatever the fuck they want to.

I'd also like to note that preventing Stealth Rock isn't this impossible task that never happens, and a weakness to it doesn't necessarily keep a Pokemon from being broken. I mean, look at Charizard. I've been in or witnessed plenty of matches where Stealth Rock is never set and Charizard is able to smash through the opposing team, and I've experienced matches where Stealth Rock has been set but Charizard still manages to do its job. Obviously it's not as easy in NU as it is anywhere else, but unlike Scolipede, most Stealth Rock users are slow. They have very exploitable weaknesses. They can be Taunted. They can be OHKOed. Now you can always switch out in these situations, but at the very worst, the opponent has managed to deter you from setting up Stealth Rock, giving you more opportunities early on in the match when your Stealth Rock weak Pokemon can come in unscathed. Jynx itself can prevent Stealth Rock from being set with its Ice STAB and Lovely Kiss. It can also run Sash and/or Taunt to prevent hazards and do other things.

You also mentioned that you need to bring something to absorb or fodder to sleep in addition to a defensive check that can handle it while awake. I can't help but ask how you can say that and not find that to be restricting to teambuilding. That's like the textbook definition of being restrictive to teambuilding. You compared it to Sawk earlier on, where you need to have multiple checks to that in order to beat it if you don't bring a dedicated counter, but there are really a lot of differences between the two that keep this comparison from holding much water. First off, when you bring multiple checks to Sawk, you're probably bringing a Fighting resist, a coverage resist (keep in mind all of Sawk's coverage moves are common attacking types), and probably a couple of things that can outspeed and KO it. These are all important things that should be on every team anyways, barring maybe the couple of things that outspeed and KO it if you're using stall, where you'll have a hard counter anyways. With Jynx, you have to bring sleep fodder/a sleep absorber that can take two hits from Jynx as well as an additional Jynx check, which there really aren't that many of. There's probably like three Pokemon that fulfill all of those roles, and none of them are very good Pokemon outside of checking Jynx. Meanwhile, there are hard counters to Sawk. Yes, a sleep absorber is also important to run on a team, and an Ice/Psychic resist is also pretty important, but the fact is that you don't need to soft checks to Jynx—you pretty much need two counters. Like I said, the sleep absorber can't just die or else Jynx can put something else to sleep. It also has to switch in and be able to fight back in case Jynx doesn't use its Lovely Kiss right away. With Sawk, you can just play around its strong attacks. With Jynx, you have to play around Lovely Kiss, Trick, Substitute, potential Choice Scarf Speed, potential Life Orb power, a Water immunity, etc.

And of course, regarding slow pivots, Musharna and Probopass are definitely the best ones, but they're also definitely not the only ones. Although honestly, they're all you really need. Still, you've also got Eelektross which can only be taken advantage of if it's running Specs Volt Switch, Ampharos, Regenerator Pokemon which can come in and tank a hit and then pivot out into Jynx or whatever else on the obvious forced switch (this is more circumstantial but absolutely works), Pelipper (seriously good Pokemon tbh), and fast pivots that can force switches. The selection might not be absolutely stellar, but the quality of the selection is high. I even have a Pelipper/Jynx team iirc. I think I stole it from efag.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Usually when I play against Jynx, I have 2 things that can check it or Metang, and when it's time, sleep fodder the Pokemon that is least likely to do much against the opponent's team. It's not really that hard to check Jynx; Water-types aren't that hard to fit into teams and neither are Choice Scarf users, and they all do a rather good job at checking Jynx. I don't see how this is very restrictive to teambuilding because in terms of sleep fodder I just choose whatever is appropriate in the game based on team matchup and then proceed to force Jynx out with my two Pokemon that can do so. It's very similar to choosing a Pokemon to sac; choose the one that probably wouldn't help much anymore, and if Jynx does put that one to sleep, it's wasted its Sleep Clause and checking it became a whole lot easier.

As for those examples I gave, I wasn't saying that they can beat Jynx all the time. However, they are all Pokemon that Jynx would be able to get around 1v1 if it could use Lovely Kiss, but in practice it doesn't always happen and once Lovely Kiss has been used, Jynx becomes a rather ordinary Pokemon. What I'm saying is that Jynx would love to use Lovely Kiss in so many situations: it would love to put a SRer to sleep so it doesn't have to worry about rocks wearing it down, it would love to put Skuntank / Metang to sleep, and it would love to put offensive threats to sleep so that it can 2HKO without being at risk of being OHKOed first, and it would love to put defensive threats to sleep so that it or its teammates can take advantage of it. However Jynx only gets to use this move once and has to really calculate when it is appropriate to use the move. Once it activates Sleep Clause, it immediately becomes less threatening and a lot more things can check it, so most of the time it is going to get forced out a lot in a match unless it has out the most threatening opponent to sleep, and even so the opponent will likely have another Pokemon that can still threaten it. And because it's so hard to switch in Jynx in a match without team support, getting forced out is really bad for it. So, what I'm seeing is that Jynx isn't really that hard to manage because of its frailty and reliance on Lovely Kiss, while at the same time it encourages skillful play on both sides because the Jynx user must choose the right time to bring Jynx in and the right time to use Lovely Kiss, while the opponent has to play around the threat of Lovely Kiss and Jynx itself, which like I mentioned isn't a lose-lose situation all the time.
 
Usually when I play against Jynx, I have 2 things that can check it or Metang, and when it's time, sleep fodder the Pokemon that is least likely to do much against the opponent's team. It's not really that hard to check Jynx; Water-types aren't that hard to fit into teams and neither are Choice Scarf users, and they all do a rather good job at checking Jynx. I don't see how this is very restrictive to teambuilding because in terms of sleep fodder I just choose whatever is appropriate in the game based on team matchup and then proceed to force Jynx out with my two Pokemon that can do so. It's very similar to choosing a Pokemon to sac; choose the one that probably wouldn't help much anymore, and if Jynx does put that one to sleep, it's wasted its Sleep Clause and checking it became a whole lot easier.
I think you're neglecting to consider the fact that the Jynx user isn't forced to use Lovely Kiss the moment it comes in. Due it its sheer power and type coverage, it can easily just go for an attack to hit your "sleep fodder" extremely hard, probably killing it in the process. Now it becomes harder for you to play around it the next time it comes in after you bring in something faster than it. Or, should you do predict the incoming Lovely Kiss and bring in your sleep fodder, Jynx is still free to fire off an attack as well to hit the incoming switch in; however, if it's evident that you're carrying a counter, such as Metang, it's easy to just switch out Jynx to a Metang counter and gain even more momentum than ever. It's that easy to gain momentum when using Jynx because of the amount of switches it forces and lack of foolproof counters. Also, why do you say Water-types best Jynx when they are all maimed by Psychic and the fact that Jynx absorbs their STAB? And yes, Choice Scarf users of course do a good job at checking Jynx, but the problem is that they cannot blatantly switch into any of Jynx's attacks without getting mauled. Things like Primeape, Sawk, and Tauros get hit really hard or are outright OHKOed with a single attack. This basically means that anytime you are attempting to check Jynx, you're going to have to sac something to do so. On top of saccing your team, you still have something sleeping, so you're losing too many Pokemon trying to deal with it. Even if you sac your sleep fodder, Jynx is free to sleep something else when it's back in. Jynx isn't hard to force out, and it may get limited switch-in opportunities, but it basically does the needed damage the one or two times it's in. It's just that good.

I'd say more about your post but I need to go now.
 
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About what things counter Jynx really, here:

Sorry for the wall of China that follows.

After some consideration I have shifted my opinion a bit. Now I believe that Jynx should not be banned.

A lot of the arguments have been based on how Jynx has a combination of Speed, power, and Lovely Kiss that pressurizes the opponent and disables its checks without much risk to the user. However, my argument will be based on how using Jynx itself requires a large amount of skill and prediction. Because of Sleep Clause, simply using Lovely Kiss is not an option because there's a large opportunity cost of not being able to put something to sleep. Jynx requires Lovely Kiss to check a lot of things, and putting the wrong thing to sleep is sometimes bad for Jynx. A good example I can think of is Jynx vs Ludicolo. A lot of teams use Jynx as their only Ludicolo check, but really, Jynx is very reliant on Lovely Kiss to check it. However, the Jynx user will then be very pressurized not to use Lovely Kiss any other time or risk getting wrecked by Ludicolo, and must ensure that he predicts perfectly such that Sleep Clause isn't wasted on something else. Even if Ludicolo does get put to sleep, most teams have multiple checks to Jynx which all can't be put to sleep at once, and it's not like they're difficult to fit in, so the Jynx user must 1) weigh out what he needs to get rid of, and 2) predict as accurately as possible to get that thing out of the way. Even when he does, Jynx isn't going to be unstoppable because multiple checks to it exist. Here are a list of things that can potentially check or counter Jynx and can switch into at least one of its moves and beat it from there:
Skuntank
Ludicolo
Charizard
Metang
Charizard
Kangaskhan
Tauros
Scolipede
Grumpig
Hypno
Muk
Scraggy
Swellow
Gurdurr
Munchlax
Liepard
Bronzor
Skuntank is a great example of check for Jynx for example, needs Lum Berry and get 2HKO by Ice Beam so at full at 100% with Lum Berry beats Jynx watch out of critic.
Ludicolo?_? Jynx is more about checking Ludicolo than Ludicolo checking Jynx tbh Only Ludicolo set that is decent checking Jynx is SpD Ludicolo which can lose against mono attacker Jynx and loses against LO + Psyshock set, standard versions of Ludicolo get 2HKO clean by Jynx moves (LK everywhere).
Charizard? get 55-65 % from Ice Beam non-LO versions and 50% weak to Stealth Rock, is more about a Revenger Killer than a solid check depending on their set, happens the same with stuff like Tauros, Swellow and Scolipede, Scolipede gets HKO by Psychic, Ice beam with SR up and cant switch into LK.. a lot of Jynx are actually Scarf so only is a decent RK in case that Jynx is non-Scarf set.
Grumpig, Hypno, Scraggy, Bronzor and Munchlax are complete garbage mons.
Gurdurr is another RK in case that Jynx is weak around 50%, cant switch against Jynx.
Metang is actually a counter for Jynx, Muk is a poor check for Jynx but ok.

So in that list actually are working to check Jynx 1/4 mons that you listed, is a big difference between a check stuff or another to revenge killer this last means that you have to sac something before on your team to get a good advantage matchup in 1 vs 1 against Jynx because this mons cant switch safely and you needs know their set before which have a lot of options :|
 
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Blast

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Regarding Scolipede, something which hasn't been discussed is the fact that, as with any hazard setter, you are giving your opponent free turns to do what they want - switch in dangerous sweepers, set up hazards of their own etc etc. If you can use those turns to your advantage (i.e. get more out of them then the other team does with hazards) then you've "beaten" that Pokemon. The difficulty with Scolipede, I feel, is the very limited options not only for dealing with the Spikes later on, but for actually taking advantage of the free turns Spikes gives you. Since it has such great offensive presence it becomes really hard to switch in sweepers and attempt to set up, outside of like Carracosta. Setting up your own hazards is great, but you still often end up behind as common SR users like Golem or Golurk are still afraid of Aqua Tail. I feel Scolipede would be balanced if there were more options for taking advantage of it like this, but with the current state of NU I just don't feel there are enough ways to punish it for setting up Spikes. It's a pretty important part of considering a hazards Poke broken or not, so looking at ways to punish Scolipede could be an interesting conversation, but I really don't think there are enough. It's simply too fast and too powerful.
Well since I haven't posted about Scolipede yet I figured I'd just highlight this because I was actually gonna post something like this myself (but got ninja'd :mad:). Definitely the difference between Scolipede and say, Deoxys-S is the fact that you can't play so recklessly around it--you can't just switch random attackers against it and pummel away because it can and will punish you for that with its strong STAB Megahorn. There are only a few things that can reliably set up against it, and as Treecko pointed out most of those sets aren't particularly great right or hard to handle right now (and besides, nothing's stopping you from just switching to something that can handle them). Scolipede itself, on the other hand, actually can afford to play a bit more reckless and aggressively, as its Speed, solid power, and actually pretty decent typing allows it to set up multiple layers on a multitude of threats, while it can even use piling damage against it on it to its advantage to get to Swarm range. Pretty sure all of this has been covered already but this is just sort of a point that I wanted to pronounce a bit more.

Anyway something I kind of want to bring up about Jynx is that while Jynx might be versatile, its versatility can only bring it so far. It has a lot of sets but many of its sets can only perform particularly well against certain types of teams (and even then, it's not like it's unmanageable). LO Jynx troubles stall but does rather poorly against most other team archetypes, since they often apply too much pressure on Jynx to come in and dish out damage. Plus a well built stall team should be able to handle Jynx well enough anyway, since it's on a serious timer with LO + hazards + potential status, and very few mons found on stall teams can actually be OHKOed. SubNP and Sash do better against balance (I think?) but can't sweep through any team with a bulky enough Ice resist (barring maybe Water-types I guess) and again most offensive teams won't give it enough breathing space to set up. Scarf Jynx is the most versatile because it can function against all playstyles, but isn't strong enough to be overwhelming and a lot easier to check due to being locked into one move. I guess you can argue that you don't know Jynx's set until it comes out, and when it does it might be too late, but in practice it's not ~too~ hard to scout out Jynx's moveset depending on how it's played. Scarf sets are played more conservatively and often against threats that only Scarfed variants of Jynx can outspeed, while other sets tend to be more aggressive except maybe SubNP which often doesn't stay in for long until lategame when Ice resists are removed and there's something it can set up against. There's also the fact that while it's versatile all of its sets have very similar checks, barring maybe Scarf which is easier to check in general.

Also I disagree with the argument that Jynx has very little checks or that all of its checks are bad or unviable or something. It has very little counters, for sure, but its shit defensive typing and general frailty (and subsequently its weakness to priority) actually make it extremely easy to check. Most of these checks, like Charizard or Zangoose, certainly can't switch in but that does not mean they can't check Jynx because that's not the definition of a check. It is rather fast, which does make it different from other "uncounterable" mons like Otter or Eel or whatever, but like I said it's still not that much harder to check because it's so much weaker to priority.
 
Last time, I was able to vote even though I was late so I'm confident that I'll be able to vote this time as well. Previously, I voted ban for Jynx by mistake, but now that I look at it, I feel as if it should be banned (not a mistake this time!). It makes unviable sets and Pokemon viable, such as Metang (i'm sure it has viability out of counter Jynx, but its usage would be much smaller), Gyro Ball Wartortle, etc. It's stats are really great, it defines a speed tier, great coverage and especially, Lovely Kiss makes it very hard to handle. There is literally no opportunity cost in using it. This is why if I'm able to vote again, I'll vote ban.

Scolipede is an oddball. It's not as big as Jynx, but it's still there. It literally creates a playstyle by itself (spikes stacking), and in a tier where rapid spinners suck, keeping hazards is no hard task. It doesn't really limit teambuilding, but makes stall much harder to build and play, like Jynx.

I'm kind of in a rush, but I'll post tomorrow again.
 

scorpdestroyer

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I think you're neglecting to consider the fact that the Jynx user isn't forced to use Lovely Kiss the moment it comes in. Due it its sheer power and type coverage, it can easily just go for an attack to hit your "sleep fodder" extremely hard, probably killing it in the process. Now it becomes harder for you to play around it the next time it comes in after you bring in something faster than it. Or, should you do predict the incoming Lovely Kiss and bring in your sleep fodder, Jynx is still free to fire off an attack as well to hit the incoming switch in; however, if it's evident that you're carrying a counter, such as Metang, it's easy to just switch out Jynx to a Metang counter and gain even more momentum than ever. It's that easy to gain momentum when using Jynx because of the amount of switches it forces and lack of foolproof counters. Also, why do you say Water-types best Jynx when they are all maimed by Psychic and the fact that Jynx absorbs their STAB? And yes, Choice Scarf users of course do a good job at checking Jynx, but the problem is that they cannot blatantly switch into any of Jynx's attacks without getting mauled. Things like Primeape, Sawk, and Tauros get hit really hard or are outright OHKOed with a single attack. This basically means that anytime you are attempting to check Jynx, you're going to have to sac something to do so. On top of saccing your team, you still have something sleeping, so you're losing too many Pokemon trying to deal with it. Even if you sac your sleep fodder, Jynx is free to sleep something else when it's back in. Jynx isn't hard to force out, and it may get limited switch-in opportunities, but it basically does the needed damage the one or two times it's in. It's just that good.

I'd say more about your post but I need to go now.
So if the Jynx user predicts you to switch in your sleep fodder and correctly hits it hard, it isn't because of a good prediction but because the Pokemon is broken? If I anticipate an opposing Braviary to use Brave Bird and switch to Regirock but get smacked by a Superpower, is it because the user predicted correctly or because the Pokemon is broken? Likewise, doubling out to a Metang counter shows nothing but skillful play on the user's part. I could say the same for any offensive Pokemon which could let the user gain lots of momentum if they predict their counter to switch in, but that only shows skillful predictions and not brokenness. If the Jynx user needs to predict so much in order to put the right thing to sleep and play around its checks, how does this make it broken?

It is true that Jynx's moves are hard to switch into, but I'd like to remind you that at the same time, a very common scenario is that the Jynx user often has to sac a teammate as well to bring Jynx in, but the opponent however can defeat Jynx by playing around its moves and its set, without having to sac something all the time. I wrote a list of Pokemon that can switch into at least one of Jynx's common moves barring Lovely Kiss and proceed to beat it in an earlier post. This means he can predict and switch in the correct Pokemon and beat Jynx from there and doesn't necessarily have to sac to beat Jynx. It was similar with Pokemon like Life Orb Charizard or special Samurott in that it forces opponents to play around their moves until they reach a check that can beat those Pokemon. And similar to those Pokemon, the user can also sac a teammate to bring in a check to force it out. But unlike those Pokemon, the number of Jynx checks increases by a lot after it uses Lovely Kiss, and unlike those Pokemon Jynx is very difficult to bring in again and can't afford to predict wrongly most of the time because of its frailty. I don't see why Jynx is any worse than Charizard, Samurott or Eelektross and I don't see how Jynx does not encourage skillful play on both sides.

Last time, I was able to vote even though I was late so I'm confident that I'll be able to vote this time as well. Previously, I voted ban for Jynx by mistake, but now that I look at it, I feel as if it should be banned (not a mistake this time!). It makes unviable sets and Pokemon viable, such as Metang (i'm sure it has viability out of counter Jynx, but its usage would be much smaller), Gyro Ball Wartortle, etc. It's stats are really great, it defines a speed tier, great coverage and especially, Lovely Kiss makes it very hard to handle. There is literally no opportunity cost in using it. This is why if I'm able to vote again, I'll vote ban.
I don't know why the Metang and Gyro Ball Wartortle thing is still used as an argument but I'll just refute it again. Metang isn't unviable outside of countering Jynx. It can counter birds, Kangaskhan, and Psychic-types while setting up Stealth Rock, and its neutrality to Fighting-type moves means that unlike Probopass, Focus Blast Psychic-types can't beat it and it checks Kangaskhan better because it isn't 4x weak to Earthquake. This is enough of a niche even without Jynx, so I don't know why you consider Metang unviable. It is inevitable that new drops will cause metagame shifts and Jynx dropping just allowed Metang, a viable Pokemon, to shine better, and that is different from drastic changes that let an otherwise shitty Pokemon rise solely to counter it. As for Gyro Ball Wartortle, it's simply an adaptation from Wartortle, a gimmick, designed so that Wartortle can beat Jynx without hitting it with Toxic on the switch in. It isn't absolutely necessary to use it on Wartortle such that it doesn't flat out lose to Jynx. Take a look at the other gimmicks in NU. Colbur Berry Golurk is used to beat Skuntank more easily without having to resort to Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames. Does that make Skuntank broken? Psych Up Metang is used to beat SubBU Braviary without resorting to constantly hitting Meteor Mash and the mindgames it faces when deciding when to use Toxic. Does this make Braviary broken? Gyro Ball Wartortle is used to beat Jynx easier without having to predict the switch in with Toxic or risk being KOed first before Seismic Toss can do the same. Does that show that Jynx is broken?

Your argument isn't complete yet I understand, but so far it only shows the positive aspect of Jynx. It doesn't show that Jynx is frail and checked easily, it doesn't show that Jynx has limited opportunities to switch in, it doesn't show that Jynx relies a lot on Lovely Kiss to threaten opponents and that it can only use it once.
 
If the Jynx user needs to predict so much in order to put the right thing to sleep and play around its checks, how does this make it broken?
i think fuzznip pointed this out earlier (or at least i meant to but i let him post on my behalf :]) but the person facing jynx is also under immense pressure as well when having to guess whether jynx is going to go for the lovely kiss or attack. it's not just the jynx user having to predict, but also the opponent as well. if you're in a scenario where jynx comes in to threaten something you have out, you could either switch to your check or you could leave whatever's in. jynx is—most of the time—going to be brought into something that is threatened and cannot do much on that particular turn, which means that you're in a tough situation where your pokemon could be KO'd by an attack when you were expecting the lovely kiss instead or your major check switches in and actually does take a lovely kiss. if you end up switching your major check in and jynx actually does use lovely kiss, then in many cases it'll be difficult to continually check jynx throughout the match because you have an incapacitated pokemon that can't actually do anything except maybe force jynx out again. and of course i'm talking about a defensive check such as metang since nobody would ever switch an offensive check into jynx at all. in the case that jynx actually uses lovely kiss on the pokemon that could've been KO'd instead, sure you may have your metang awake and are now able to come in without the fear of being put to sleep, but jynx has also supported the rest of its team by incapacitating something and potentially opening up opportunities for something to clean or set up later along the course of the match. i will agree that in many cases jynx loves to have lovely kiss saved for its own checks, but that's a somewhat narrow-sighted argument because putting anything to sleep does so much for jynx's entire team and not just itself

the scenario i mentioned is something that doesn't necessarily happen all the time, but it's pretty frequent. there will be some cases where jynx is brought into something that it can't outright KO and must use lovely kiss, but that rarely has any repercussions at all like i pointed out already. the bottom line is that using lovely kiss doesn't really require top-notch prediction and long-term planning when the jynx user almost always going to knock out some pokemon for the rest of the match. if jynx fails to put its major check to sleep, then ok it still took out something which potentially makes it easier for its teammate. the necessity to have several checks and then be forced to carry a sleeping pokemon that will often become a liability makes it so easy to pressure the opposing team. it doesn't necessarily have to be jynx cleaning up the entire opposing team, but it usually manages to use lovely kiss and dent a thing or two which makes it difficult for the opponent to handle much else. this makes me believe that jynx shouldn't be allowed in the tier since its ability to hit a lot of pokemon hard and put anything to sleep makes it difficult to build successful teams without having to resort to rather sub-par pokemon and/or sets

in addition, fuzznip was simply pointing out that a majority of defensive checks that force jynx out are often easily countered with few or no repercussions at all. when something switches into jynx, it's rarely for free. when something like metang comes into jynx, there's a ton of things that can come in on metang and set up all over it

also i think this was pointed out before: how being able to bring jynx in is only a one-for-one situation. however, this isn't necessarily the case. it's not strictly one way or the other as pointed out there
 
scorpdestroyer said:
I don't know why the Metang and Gyro Ball Wartortle thing is still used as an argument but I'll just refute it again. Metang isn't unviable outside of countering Jynx. It can counter birds, Kangaskhan, and Psychic-types while setting up Stealth Rock, and its neutrality to Fighting-type moves means that unlike Probopass, Focus Blast Psychic-types can't beat it and it checks Kangaskhan better because it isn't 4x weak to Earthquake. This is enough of a niche even without Jynx, so I don't know why you consider Metang unviable. It is inevitable that new drops will cause metagame shifts and Jynx dropping just allowed Metang, a viable Pokemon, to shine better, and that is different from drastic changes that let an otherwise shitty Pokemon rise solely to counter it. As for Gyro Ball Wartortle, it's simply an adaptation from Wartortle, a gimmick, designed so that Wartortle can beat Jynx without hitting it with Toxic on the switch in. It isn't absolutely necessary to use it on Wartortle such that it doesn't flat out lose to Jynx. Take a look at the other gimmicks in NU. Colbur Berry Golurk is used to beat Skuntank more easily without having to resort to Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames. Does that make Skuntank broken? Psych Up Metang is used to beat SubBU Braviary without resorting to constantly hitting Meteor Mash and the mindgames it faces when deciding when to use Toxic. Does this make Braviary broken? Gyro Ball Wartortle is used to beat Jynx easier without having to predict the switch in with Toxic or risk being KOed first before Seismic Toss can do the same. Does that show that Jynx is broken?

Your argument isn't complete yet I understand, but so far it only shows the positive aspect of Jynx. It doesn't show that Jynx is frail and checked easily, it doesn't show that Jynx has limited opportunities to switch in, it doesn't show that Jynx relies a lot on Lovely Kiss to threaten opponents and that it can only use it once.
If you read my post a bit closer, you'd notice that I said that Metang was indeed viable when not countering Jynx, but that its usage would not be as high. Like I said, my argument wasn't complete, but I will complete it now. You want me to talk about Jynx's negative aspects? Sure, it's frail and checked easily, but Trick and Lovely Kiss make checking it much harder. It is indeed weak to hazards, but it can also prevent Stealth Rock itself vs some users such as Golurk (not Yache), put Piloswine to sleep, etc. It beats a hell lot of things 1vs1. It defines the metagame, and it doesn't have many good responses in this tier. Every time it comes in, it'll either kill a Pokemon, or cripple another one by putting it to sleep unless there's already one that is sleeping. You need at least two answers to it on every team, which means it limits teambuilding. Its only set isn't Scarf either, it can run Lovely Kiss&3attacks, Sash (that's an incredible lead), Nasty Plot, Calm Mind or even Substitute Mono Attacker. It is very versatile, which makes it extremely hard to check. You have to adapt too much to it, and that's what makes it broken and centralizing. Although there are a lot of arguments for it to be banned, there are also some good arguments for it to not be. It's the best check to specially based Water types such as Ludicolo and Samurott, it's a good scarfer that can beat SmashCosta, etc. I still do think it should be banned.

Now about Scolipede: like I said previously, it creates a new playstyle in spikes stacking, and he literally guarantees a couple of layers in a spinner-less tier. It's great offensively but can also support its team incredibly well. I feel as if it makes the meta less fun, even more than Jynx. Sure, you give the opponent free turns while setting up Spikes, but your options are limited during those turns: Scolipede can deal a lot of damage with Megahorn or the appropriate coverage move. Its speed allows to stack up Spikes effortlessly. You could compare it to Deoxys-S basically. I think it should be banned as well.
 
I think there's probably been too high of a focus on checking and countering Jynx and not really enough of one on what kind of effect Jynx has on the metagame. That's probably because this is a kind of difficult topic to discuss. It's a lot more abstract and takes a lot more experience playing the game. Jynx's effects on the metagame are what make me skeptical about my stance on it.

On paper, Jynx answers aren't by any means a dime a dozen, but Jynx checks absolutely do exist. Outside of gimmicks that other people have noted in this thread, you have stuff like Metang and other Steel-types including Probopass and Klang, bulky Water-types with coverage to hit Jynx including Earthquake Seismitoad and Megahorn Samurott, bulky Psychic-types with something for Jynx such as Thunder Wave Musharna (Signal Beam fails to OHKO Jynx) and Gardevoir which can live any one hit from LO and any two hits from non-LO variants, etc. I realize that few to none of these Pokemon can hard counter Jynx depending on how you look at it, but in my opinion, having so many potential checks to Jynx is a good thing and in some way makes it manageable in the tier.

What bothers me about Jynx is how offensive it makes the metagame. Full stall can usually handle Jynx pretty well. The mono attacking set is usually not a big deal because stall should be carrying plenty of checks for it. Phazers will be present. Stall should have at least two Ice resists as well. The Life Orb set, while absolutely the scariest set for stall, can be played around if you do so carefully and make sure to preserve checks and counters throughout the game. The Choice Scarf set is the most annoying because it can Trick its Choice Scarf onto a potential check or counter and then put something else to sleep with Lovely Kiss.

Offense really only cares a whole lot about Choice Scarf Jynx, but even then, it's usually ok against it and can take it out either with Kangaskhan or its own faster Choice Scarf user. Mono-attacking Jynx usually cannot keep up with the offensive pressure that the foe will have against it. Life Orb is definitely really powerful and can usually KO the majority of Pokemon on offensive teams, but it gets few opportunities to switch in and is much easier to outspeed with this playstyle.

It's Jynx's effects on balanced teams (and thus the NU metagame) that concern me so much. Balanced teams usually struggle to have the Speed to outrun and take out Jynx and the bulk to handle its high-powered attacks. Unlike against offense, Jynx can get a decent amount of switches against balanced teams, and unlike stall, it has the power to break through these teams much more easily. The best way to check Jynx with balanced teams is do one of make sure the majority of your team can take it on in some way, pack specific lures to it, or try and get up as many hazards as possible early in the game to prevent it from taking advantage of potential free switches throughout the match. Balanced struggles a lot against Jynx because even some of these potential ways of handling it won't work in every situation. Gimmicky lures usually have a one-time value, so in important matches, you can't expect it to work more than once or maybe twice. Having a team where almost every Pokemon can handle Jynx at every given time also only works so well because you still need to make sure your team has both defensive and offensive synergy, and keeping that in mind while you're also trying to keep Jynx in mind with nearly every Pokemon is really difficult to do.

I guess what it comes down to is how important you think Jynx's effects on balanced playstyles really are. If you think that making balanced much more difficult to run is a really bad thing, then obviously you're probably on the pro-ban side. But if you don't think Jynx's negative effects against balanced are profound enough, then you're probably still against its ban. I'm still weighing both sides, and I'm not sure where I would vote if I was given the opportunity.
 

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[14:15] <&Zebraiken> seriously jynx warps teambuilding so much
[14:15] <&Zebraiken> that's the issue with it
[14:15] <&Zebraiken> its not that its frail or unmanagable
[14:16] <+Fuzznip> it fks teambuildig
[14:16] <@Annoyer> yea i like
[14:16] <@Annoyer> treeckos last post
[14:16] <&Zebraiken> people just dont see how much it changes how you have to approach teambuilding
[14:16] <@Annoyer> ppl should talk more about taht
[14:16] <@Soulgazer> y
[14:16] <&Zebraiken> like lol when i have to run gyro ball wartortle
[14:16] <&Zebraiken> to keep it in check

...

[14:18] <&Zebraiken> we are used to using pokemon that threaten it 24/7
[14:18] <&Zebraiken> and yes the metagame will always warp itself around pokes that deal with the top threats
[14:18] <@Annoyer> i think the main thing is that
[14:18] <@Annoyer> speed
[14:18] <@Annoyer> is gay
[14:18] <&Zebraiken> speed, power, lk
[14:18] <@Annoyer> most teams pre jynx and scoli
[14:18] <&Zebraiken> i made a list of viable pokes under 95 speed
[14:18] <@Soulgazer> btw i'm really gay
[14:18] <@Annoyer> there are reasons why
[14:18] <@Annoyer> serp is used more
[14:19] <@Annoyer> than stuff like bambi now
[14:19] <@firemage> yes
[14:19] <+Fuzznip> yea
[14:19] <@firemage> I agree
[14:19] <+Fuzznip> balanced teams will be so much better
[14:19] <&Zebraiken> that are "threatened" by jynx which means they have to run like a ton of checks to it
[14:19] <@firemage> The speed of the meta
[14:19] <@Annoyer> u have to run
[14:19] <@Annoyer> offense
[14:19] <@Annoyer> imo
[14:19] <&Zebraiken> and its literally over half of the viable pokes
[14:19] <@Annoyer> to beat jynx/scoli
[14:19] <&Zebraiken> yes
[14:19] <+Fuzznip> you do
[14:19] <@Annoyer> offense or full stall
[14:19] <&Zebraiken> and even then its a fuckin gamble
[14:19] <@Annoyer> not rly any other option
[14:19] <+Fuzznip> if you run slow mons, you will be taken advantageof
[14:19] <+Fuzznip> it's that simple

I have been wanting to post here since the beginning, but since I got lazy I am gonna post a bunch of logs that I feel represent what I think about these two Pokemon.


come at me Raseri
 
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