On Assumptions while Battling

Stratos

Banned deucer.
I was talking to my tutee yesterday, and I asked him how laddering was going. He responded that it was difficult because he didn't know what to expect Pokemon to be running, "example idk what klefki can do." I realized that there was no good compendium of what common Pokemon are running. So I spent the next hour going through the A and S ranks on the viability rankings thread and creating a list of every set that I consider when I see an opponent's Pokemon in team preview (before narrowing it down by what their teammates are running etc.) The goal here isn't to thoroughly catalog every set a Pokemon runs; it's to list what I'll assume they're running, i.e. what moves I'll base my own moves around.

The purpose for this thread is twofold. First, I wanted someplace to post that list, because I think it's kinda cool, and useful for newer players. (I plan on adding B and C rank Pokemon at a later date). Second, I wanted to ask you guys what assumptions you make while battling. How do you use these assumptions to inform your moves? Do they change, and how do they change, between the ladder and higher level play? (One example I can think of are that in ladder play I assume SD Aegislash while in higher level play I assume special aegislash)
 

chimp

Go Bananas
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Depending on my opponent during a ladder match, I usually assume they are using one of the sets posted on smogon, generally the first one. Of course this isn't very effective at higher levels.
 
I think this is an incredibly good idea, and is actually akin to a threat list, which is something other tiers have access to, but sadly we lack. I feel it will make the Metagame far more accessible and by having it available for anyone to look at, people can begin to play better, as well as get ideas about what "standard" sets are and what is actually effective.
 

Laga

Forever Grande
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I don't really think it is very close to the threat list from singles tiers, and I sort of also don't think you can really make a threat list in Doubles that matches the format of singles threatlists.

I think Pwnemon's guide aims to predict or guess what most people would use, and make plays based off of that. For example, if you have a Terrakion out against a Landorus-T and the lando has 14% hp left. Most new players would stay in and Rock Slide not knowing that Landorus-T is very often carrying a Choice Scarf. The threatlist is mostly "this is a large threat that can sweep you, bring a counter and play carefully" or "this is an annoying wall, bring something that can break it"

and the list is super useful for tutees thanks pwne :]
 
I dont think anyone ever runs SD Aegislash anymore, but then again, the lower ladder can surprise you with fire blast Talonflame.
Some assumptions can be made by looking at the team composition i.e if it is a hyper offense team or a bulky offense team.
If I see pokemon with base speed between 90-100 with decent potential like staraptor, krookodile or landorus-t(better than decent), I assume they will be running scarf.
But unexpected scarfs can really screw you hard, a scarf jellicent with water spout took out my 2 starters once :P
Its always important to know who can run fake out and other priority moves. There are uncommon fake out users like blastoise,ludicolo and shiftry and not being prepared for it can shift momentum.

I think we can make near perfect assumptions about pokemon from S and A tier. Barring a few substitutes here and there and the occasional quick guard or wide guard, safe assumptions about movesets and items can be made. Pokemon from B and C tiers should be further analysed to complete the list
 

Darkmalice

Level 3
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I dont think anyone ever runs SD Aegislash anymore, but then again, the lower ladder can surprise you with fire blast Talonflame.
Some assumptions can be made by looking at the team composition i.e if it is a hyper offense team or a bulky offense team.
If I see pokemon with base speed between 90-100 with decent potential like staraptor, krookodile or landorus-t(better than decent), I assume they will be running scarf.
But unexpected scarfs can really screw you hard, a scarf jellicent with water spout took out my 2 starters once :P
Its always important to know who can run fake out and other priority moves. There are uncommon fake out users like blastoise,ludicolo and shiftry and not being prepared for it can shift momentum.

I think we can make near perfect assumptions about pokemon from S and A tier. Barring a few substitutes here and there and the occasional quick guard or wide guard, safe assumptions about movesets and items can be made. Pokemon from B and C tiers should be further analysed to complete the list
SD Aegislash is not used at all only in higher level play. However, most of the ladder consists of inexperienced players, and SD Aegislash is fairly common in lower ladder. Same for random junk like Fire Blast Talonflame. Though then again, a Flame Body Talonflame was used in a higher level game and it did pay off because the user forgot to change its ability.

It would be silly to automatically assume base 90-100 speed Pokemon are scarfed; it's usually best to taken both into consideration if you are unsure. Especially in the case of Landorus-T and Staraptor. Also Tyranitar. Assumptions can be inferred but not confirmed based on the team preview. For example, I'm more likely to assume Scarf if the team is relatively slow but doesn't have any TR users or ways to boost Speed.

Your last paragraph lost me - pretty much all of it. Wide Guard should be taken into consideration on certain Pokemon, most notably Hitmontop and Aegislash. Quick Guard may also be assumed on certain Pokemon depending on how your opponent plays e.g. bringing in a Keldeo against a Talonflame would be suspicious. I would never say we could make near perfect assumptions; so many surprises can occur in Pokemon. And this is not limited to just S and A tier Pokemon - this applies to all Pokemon. Regarding Sub, there a lot of viable users of it, though of course you are more likely to assume it on Pokemon that use it more often like Kyurem-B (Sub on the rise) and Heatran (Sub on the decline, being replaced by Shuca Berry).
 

Laga

Forever Grande
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I took the time to thoroughly update this, as it is an extremely useful resource for people without first hand experience in Doubles. I needed it for my tutee this round of B101, so here it is for the public too n_n

http://pastebin.com/pLpUna6f

Everything is listed according to viability rankings through S and A ranks, if anyone has time on their hand and want to continue through B rank, they can help out here :toast:

For those who don't know how this is meant to be used, if you are in a battle and meet a Pokemon you don't know what does, you can Ctrl+F that mon in this pastebin and find out what it's common sets are. If the mon is in B rank or below, this hasn't quite been updated yet, but I'll get to it some time soon :D
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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Great work on that Laga, I'm going through rn and making some edits to the S and A mons that I think are helpful. Obviously feel free to delete anything I say since you're the one who actually tutors with it.
 

Laga

Forever Grande
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oh my god thank you that's an amazing idea, I'll check through later today, and add them to when I do B rank :]
 

Darkmalice

Level 3
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Thanks Laga and Thwack!. After the list is updated with B rank Pokemon and perhaps some C rank Pokemon, would it be possible to make the list part of the OP Stratos . Then users / the community can make suggestions to change the list and gather some discussion on it.
 
resurrecting this from the dead for a second time because I've updated this w/ Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 Stuff and I'm working on Tier 2 and below today.

http://piratepad.net/xVrmrRtsr1

I made a new one because it's really funny to see how bad our vranks/sets used to be, chary and excadrill in the same rank is a gem lmfao

EDIT

thank you for the help Memoric , we got down to tier 3 so this should be a comprehensive list for every common mon!
 
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Looks good. A couple of minor edits I made were adding safety goggles as an item option for non-sub aegislash and focus blast as a filler move for non-tr mega gardevoir. Feel free to delete these if they aren't common enough. I think something that says choice band talonflame almost always (should) run jolly because they can get the jump on adamant talons and still ohko them with brave bird.

I'd also put trick as a 4th move option on scarf rotom and overheat as a 3rd move option on volcanion
 
first time seeing this. while i actually like the idea of it , it kind of seems a bit like a second analysis book, more dedicated for ladder shenanigans. im not against it tho i guess.

even thou one can see many different kinds of shenanigans on our ladder, some are repetitive, looking at skillswap + victini, audino+shedinja, discharge or surf spam, etc...
if we are to dedicate it for uncommon pokemon that can still be viable, i would like this much more
 

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