On Banning Abilities and Ability Combinations

[charizard24]

The point I guess I am trying to make, is that if a pokemon can be tiered in such a way that it will get used, and its not totally insane. Like for example banning half of Mewtwo’s move pool, or making it level 85. Otherwise precautions should be made to make sure it is used, instead of having a pokemon in a ban list, making all use of the pokemon obsolete. I would rather have Blaziken, merked to UU, then no one use it in Uber. And don’t tell me it will be used, like Salamence last gen, that double dragon dance Rayquazza piece of shit, which was the biggest piece of propaganda I have ever seen a pokemon site use. And if something is totally broken, like lets say Doexys-S or Latias, possibly this gen, you can not make them OU or UU worthy without screwing them up considerably then, and I am not for that at all. A bad ability is like slicing off a bad appendix, but if someone has radiation poisoning, you can’t fix them.

Doesnt that defeat the point of tiers in general? I mean like if we have a Mewtwo in NU and in UU and in BL and in OU and in Ubers after being tampered with enough it starts to defeat the purpose. The point of a tier is that there is a set of more used pokemon in that tier and lesser used mons in the other tiers. Ubers and BL are banlists for pokemon that are deemed too powerful.

Your point: "The point I guess I am trying to make, is that if a pokemon can be tiered in such a way that it will get used, and its not totally insane."
Isnt it? I mean if we allow all Ubers into OU and all Ou pokemon into UU and all UU pokemon into Nu and etc... What's the point of it all? We are playing with mutated creatures what we tampered with just so that we can have the pleasure of using them.

That's like saying Arceus is allowed in NU if we remove all moves except splash... and its lvl 50 or something. Again, what is the point of it all?

If a pokemon is deemed too powerful or broken, then ban the pokemon as a whole. Dont pick and choose which parts to ban and which to keep. Because then every pokemon in UU or higher could have multiple forms. So we now essentially have somewhere in the realms of ~1000 pokemon from 649. These other forms are not the same creatures anymore. This will make the tiering of an individual pokemon extremely difficult and time consuming. Because we will then have to analyze each and every pokemon individually and determine what to NERF and what to Allow. And last time i checked we are playing the game NOT creating one....

Also, your analogy of a pokemon as a package with things in it is deeply flawed. If you choose to remove the items from your box then the item becomes a seperate entity from the box as a whole. But in the case of pokemon its not that simple. Because you created 2 forms of the box existing in the same dimension with contradicting characteristics. So now you have 2 pokemon whereas you would still have one box. (hope that made sense)

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Mewtwo for NU!

Conditions: Can only have Psywave, must be Bashful, 0 IVs in all stats, no EVs, must hold Choice Band, must be LV 15.

No. Pokemon does not work like that. If you are suggesting to remove Wobbuffet from G4 Uber, what are you gonna do? Make it hold a Choice Band and has only Splash every time? It's a big-ass slippery slope, that's what.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

Mewtwo for NU!

Conditions: Can only have Psywave, must be Bashful, 0 IVs in all stats, no EVs, must hold Choice Band, must be LV 15.

No. Pokemon does not work like that. If you are suggesting to remove Wobbuffet from G4 Uber, what are you gonna do? Make it hold a Choice Band and has only Splash every time? It's a big-ass slippery slope, that's what.

I agree. Once you start complex bans, where do you end? If you start that, it leads the way to other ability + pokemon bans, and having to consult a huge list before making your team to make sure you're not making any illegal movesets is a bit ridiculous.

 

[ChaosAkita]

I think diversity is nice, but we also have to keep the game simple. I think after too much complexity, it can make the playing experience more unejoyable if we have to spend excessive time considering what kind of Pokemon goes where. Also, the rules have to be enforcable. Obviously, we can do whatever we want on simulators, but that brings up the issue of how simulators are supposed to replicate the game. I think it's just better if we ban certain abilities outright in different teirs.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Doesnt that defeat the point of tiers in general? I mean like if we have a Mewtwo in NU and in UU and in BL and in OU and in Ubers after being tampered with enough it starts to defeat the purpose. The point of a tier is that there is a set of more used pokemon in that tier and lesser used mons in the other tiers. Ubers and BL are banlists for pokemon that are deemed too powerful.

Your point: "The point I guess I am trying to make, is that if a pokemon can be tiered in such a way that it will get used, and its not totally insane."
Isnt it? I mean if we allow all Ubers into OU and all Ou pokemon into UU and all UU pokemon into Nu and etc... What's the point of it all? We are playing with mutated creatures what we tampered with just so that we can have the pleasure of using them.

That's like saying Arceus is allowed in NU if we remove all moves except splash... and its lvl 50 or something. Again, what is the point of it all?

If a pokemon is deemed too powerful or broken, then ban the pokemon as a whole. Dont pick and choose which parts to ban and which to keep. Because then every pokemon in UU or higher could have multiple forms. So we now essentially have somewhere in the realms of ~1000 pokemon from 649. These other forms are not the same creatures anymore. This will make the tiering of an individual pokemon extremely difficult and time consuming. Because we will then have to analyze each and every pokemon individually and determine what to NERF and what to Allow. And last time i checked we are playing the game NOT creating one....

I kinda just stated in that, that the best form of a pokemon, is the BEST one. And such you woun't have multiple forms everywhere, one possibly in a banlist and the other one allowed in its normal metagame. You taking my whole post totally out of porportion, under what I said at the MOST you might have a dozen pokemon banned in the way I described. You said it will litterally double the pokemon number, thats one hell of a slippery slope.

 

[Arch]

I agree. Once you start complex bans, where do you end? If you start that, it leads the way to other ability + pokemon bans, and having to consult a huge list before making your team to make sure you're not making any illegal movesets is a bit ridiculous.

Yes yes yes! It goes from "molding a fair metagame" to simply neutering Pokemon X until it's usable in a certain environment. The line between keeping the game Pokemon and just Smogon's mod of Pokemon is a thin one. Once they start feeling it's fine to practically edit Pokemon until they're fair to use in OU, it starts looking more like a shower of limitations on Pokemon until they're barely recognizable.

It's exactly as TM13IceBeam stated, it's no longer a Pokemon game, just a game edited by Smogon.

 

[dwarfstar]

Personally, I don't see why people are trying to get most of these things banned. Drizzle/Swift Swim may be annoying to fight, but it's not broken. I have beaten teams that used this combo, and in plain point of fact they're making a fuss over nothing. While I agree that broken stuff should not be usable, "broken" should not mean "crap that's tough let's ban it". Speed Boost Blaziken, for example - yeah, it's annoying, but it's beatable just like anything else. (And no, I am not just saying that as an excuse for using one - my Blaziken was imported from Soulsilver, and the ones I use online are copies of the ones in my games.) Having things that are difficult to defeat is essential to the evolution of the metagame - it drives innovation in devising counters, which in turn fosters countermeasures for those, and so on. I think of the battle system as living, strange as that sounds, and adaptation is essential if one is not to become obsolete. In order to ban a combo/ability/whatever, substantial evidence to indicate brokenness ought to be required.

P.S. Greetings, all. SUPERNERD BEN has made his debut. XD

 

[Kantero]

Banning should be discretional. Every ability, every combo has a weak spot. Finding that weak point or having it in a team when the situation arises is tough but oh well Somedays that happens. * Agrees with person above him*

 

[PkmTrainer]

I dont think an ability should ever be banned. if its to broken only that pokemon should be banned.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I don't see why an ability should be banned if they Pokemon has another ability. With Dream World, nearly every Pokemon has 2--some are quite terrible, but better than nothing.

 

[banditking15]

Banning a specific ability because of one pokemon makes no sense, its why they scrapped Blaziken all together and not speed boost. i understand ability combinations (Swift Swim +Drizzle) but banning a specific ability creates exceptions in the rule book which gets complex after a while and really starts to over-centeralize the meta game