ORAS Ubers Analysis Index (See Post #394)

Freeroamer

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Wasn't the merit to using CB Ekiller as a niche option in past gens it's access to Trick to cripple it's defensive answers like Skarmory, Giratina-A and Lugia? But these days more common ekiller checks aren't really susceptible to Trick(Gira-O, Mence, Sableye, MGar etc.) I get that the prio is rly strong but this metagame absolutely sucks for any choiced mon because of the amount of punishment you can exert on one free turn, especially against the teams where you'd be likely to use this. You either give Gar a free mega(This is awful considering one of Gars biggest flaws is mega evolving imo) with your STAB or most of the tier with your weak/easy to resist coverage. I took this for a spin earlier and it was never convincing me.
 
Nayrz when's that darkceus analysis gonna get started? I've never done an analysis before but I could try it if you don't have time or something like that.
 
From the discussions i had with some QC members the opinion was that its hit or miss/gimmicky and I've been hovering over a fence re: starting it for ages. If you feel you have a better outlook / experience with the set then fire in, but be aware of the small (i think) chance it could end up rejected despite being initially approved to go.
 
Well I've used the set a few times and either had very big failures with at and just ended up sacking it, or it took out 1-2 mons. I think I might as well try writing up an analysis since no one else is gonna do it. I've never done one before either so maybe it'll be fun. So yeah I'll start it up.
 
I was discussing a bit with Hack about an underused Arceus-Ground set that went something like this:

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe or 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Recover

The first spread outspeeds all positive base 90s and the second spread outspeeds Jolly Rayquaza. We concluded that this set might fit on some BO teams with another Defog user since it's an actual check to ParaDancer/Double Dance Groudon-Primal and can be used to spread status on Pokémon immune to Ground-type moves such as Ho-Oh or Giratina-Origin. It also outspeeds some annoying Excadrill leads, surprises them by being faster, basically giving them only 1 turn to react. Being resistant to Stealth Rock damage and immune to paralysis are also some good traits.
 
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Yea I'd like to get that set written up.. I think it's pretty obvious and unique to have an arceus to check all variants of pdon as well as mence. Can work as a pretty decent way to compress bulky offensive teams. Not to be used on Ho-oh balance though, at least I think.

Also can we edit in a toxic slash with earth power on Arceus-Fairy's first set?
 

Minority

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Also can we edit in a toxic slash with earth power on Arceus-Fairy's first set?
My only concern with this is that the point of the set was to be able to break typical Fairy checks employed by bulky offenses and balances. If you run Toxic over Earth Power you can't touch Klefki and certain niche Steels. You also now have fewer options against Mega Gengar. Some overlap is created since the set already handles Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and Arceus-Dragon. The primary gain you get with Toxic on this set are Lugia and Arceus-Water, but they can Toxic stall you just as well as you can do to them (you must hit them on switch-in or accept the trade if it is beneficial). I think at most it could be slashed after Earth Power, but a moves mention might also be the appropriate choice here.

As for the Arceus-Ground set it's probably fine to write up. I'm not sure why you think it can't be used on a Ho-Oh balance when the bulk of what it checks is very comparable to dual attacking Arceus-Water. You can allocate Defog to some Levitating Dragon and have plenty of ways to build defenses against Darkrai and EKiller. These arrangements also have room to fit a Water resist which is a concern since you're starting with a basis of P Don / Arceus-Ground / Ho-Oh. I think there are a number of traits that make this set not totally outclassed by Arceus-Water.
 
I really wasn't too intrigued with my first look on this set. It really just looks like a waterceus clone that deals with pdon better but gives up the ability to deal with birds and levitators. I think it would be kind of difficult to build a team around this since it needs defog support as well as mons to help alleviate the bird weakness. But I do think the fact that it's able to check every pdon set and mmence both is a really great trait that not many pokemon are able to do, which ups it's value in my mind. I'm still not too keen on the set though and personally I would want to see a build where this set works well and doesn't hold it back by just being a waterceus look-a-like.

I agree with Hack on the toxic slash on fairyceus though.
 
Alright looks like I'm gonna have to elaborate.

My only concern with this is that the point of the set was to be able to break typical Fairy checks employed by bulky offenses and balances. If you run Toxic over Earth Power you can't touch Klefki and certain niche Steels. You also now have fewer options against Mega Gengar. Some overlap is created since the set already handles Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and Arceus-Dragon. The primary gain you get with Toxic on this set are Lugia and Arceus-Water, but they can Toxic stall you just as well as you can do to them (you must hit them on switch-in or accept the trade if it is beneficial). I think at most it could be slashed after Earth Power, but a moves mention might also be the appropriate choice here.

As for the Arceus-Ground set it's probably fine to write up. I'm not sure why you think it can't be used on a Ho-Oh balance when the bulk of what it checks is very comparable to dual attacking Arceus-Water. You can allocate Defog to some Levitating Dragon and have plenty of ways to build defenses against Darkrai and EKiller. These arrangements also have room to fit a Water resist which is a concern since you're starting with a basis of P Don / Arceus-Ground / Ho-Oh. I think there are a number of traits that make this set not totally outclassed by Arceus-Water.
As for the toxic slash I seriously think earth power Arceus-Fairy has no chance of beating any steel outside Klefki anyway. Having options vs Mega Gengar is good but the fact is that its best set runs no poison move... You still 3hko Gar in practice which is just fine. The gain of toxic isn't that you get to toxic walls like Lugia (altho getting the tox on Arceus-Water is part of the move's niche), it is that you can prevent some offensive mons from sweeping you. Random CM Arceus, Ekiller etc. I don't think Arceus-Fairy should ever be run on a balance due to there being better options for those teams, so having toxic as a fail safe for the aforementioned CM Arcs (which offensive teams generally have more trouble covering, even they are super rare) is important. The only team I managed to make with the mon had toxic > epower and I would never recommend anyone to change that. Another big point in toxic's favor is that you get to drop status on most defogers, such as Arceus-Water, which is something that I feel is super important for offensive teams. Think of it as Arceus-Fighting in BW2.

Regarding Arceus-Ground on Ho-oh teams:
Ho-oh teams are balanced by nature and thus often a bulky Arceus to fill a role of a physically defensive mon. Arceus-Ground seems like it would work but I don't think you quite understand its niche if you point out teammates such as "levitating dragons". That's what people sometimes do now and I think it's a big no no and a complete bastardization of whatever positive traits special groundceus. The fact that you can allocate 1 slot on a team to check/counter any variant of Pdon is something unique about the set and whenever you resort to pairing it with additional Pdon checks such as "levitating dragons" the result is an overall weaker build. Special Arceus-Ground is infact always outclassed by Water if you resort to pairing it with a mon like Latios, Giratina-O, or Latias. So yeah, I think the mon is overall better suiting for more offensive teams, with teammates like Rayquaza, Gengar etc.

So the defog point is covered, but I also think it's important to address the Ho-oh weakness of Ho-oh balanced builds. The reason these teams almost always run Arceus-Water/Dragon as their physically defensive backbone is due to additional fire resists. This is largely due to Ho-oh balances being forced into using Klefki/other steels for a Xerneas check (Ho-oh+Pdon is never enough). I wouldn't be able to figure out how to fit special Arceus-Ground on a Ho-oh balance due to this predicament... Additionally a Kyogre weakness will surely happen. Running something like Pdon/Groundceus/Ferro/Ho-oh/Diancie/defoger?? might be your best bet to not be overly Kyogre/Ho-oh weak (it still is Ho-oh weak though) and finding a suitable defoger that doesn't make using Arceus-Ground moot seems impossible to me.

Overall I can't see how this mons would ever fit on a convential Ho-oh balance, but on a more offensive team that relies more on priority (Ray, Deo-A) for Xerneas I think it puts in work. The counterargument is why I'd run this over SD Arceus-Ground I guess, but I believe the Mence checking attribute comes in handy as well for those teams.

I really wasn't too intrigued with my first look on this set. It really just looks like a waterceus clone that deals with pdon better but gives up the ability to deal with birds and levitators. I think it would be kind of difficult to build a team around this since it needs defog support as well as mons to help alleviate the bird weakness. But I do think the fact that it's able to check every pdon set and mmence both is a really great trait that not many pokemon are able to do, which ups it's value in my mind. I'm still not too keen on the set though and personally I would want to see a build where this set works well and doesn't hold it back by just being a waterceus look-a-like.

I agree with Hack on the toxic slash on fairyceus though.
You just said exactly what it does better than Arc-Water. Then you jump to the conclusion that 99 % of players do- "I need defog". I wasn't really expecting people to be stuck in that mindset but I guess it's natural. I view the set as a role compressor for offense in need for a strong sole Pdon check and passable Mence answer.

some teams:
Pdon/Deo-A/Gar/Ray/Xern/Arceus-Ground
Cloyster/Ho-oh/Pdon/Gar/Xern/Arceus-Ground
 
The reasoning for my "I need defog" mindset was because you said it would fit on bulkier offensive teams and most BOs have Ho-Oh or mence, and as such, defog is usually important for those kinds of builds. After seeing your HUGE write-up to me and MS though you made some valid points and arguments that made me change my mind on this set. I wasn't really looking as this set to be a pivot for offense, I was looking at it's role being on balance, which made the set look much worse than it does now. Being used as an offensive team's pivot for pdon and mence would probably work quite well, as keeping up the pressure with toxic. I can see this role being very helpful on the teams you provided and I think it would work very well in actually play, which is very different from how I saw it earlier. I don't know if this is going to get a write-up due to Nayrz's hate towards it (at the beginning of this anyways) but your arguments have definitely made me change my mind on it.
 

Minority

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I consider it more important for BO teams that would ever utilize such an Arceus-Fairy set to pressure Klefki than be able to punish the setup of CM Arc. Arceus-Water is a good point for Toxic but I already mentioned that myself. Slapping Toxic on a Poke that EKiller might set up on just doesn't give an offense team much. These teams work to check offensive threats quickly rather than slowly; the damage you can lay upon setup is often greater than the amount of Toxic damage you'll get before EKiller does irrevocable damage.

In this specific case instead of inflicting it with poison you can blast it with two Judgments, something that eliminates LO EKiller's ability to sweep when the exchange is over without even having to switch. You can bring up Recover but that ignores Refresh. Good BO teams have more stable methods to handle EKiller than random Toxic on their Arc forme so I don't consider this a major plus to Toxic, unlike being able to status the phys def core of balance / defensive teams; Arceus-Water and Lugia. Either Earth Power or Toxic you can still play your doubles against Klefki or Arc Water, but I'd rather have Earth Power because giving free switch-ins to Klefki hurts offense teams significantly.
 
im not a fan of the set but if other qc believe the groundceus set is worth putting on site then give it a shot - but i have heard opinions against it other than my own so writer beware

finding a writer is the hard part - as you can see chansey still needs one...
 
One thing i did notice recently (as in, just now) was the set order on Ghostceus's analysis is currently ordered as support > cm > sd

Its safe to assume this is pretty off. SD is the obvious contender for #1 as its the only set that gets usage and doesn't straight up suck, but what should be done with the other 2 sets? QC responses would be neato.

The overview is also slightly outdated to me but with activity in peaceful mode i don't see the need to hop on the "revamp!" train unless really necessary.
 

Aberforth

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CM should be higher than support. More defined niche and isn't as outclassed by as many other Arceus formes.
 
The order for Ghostceus should go SD > SubCM (needs analysis) > Support.

SubCM (or offensive with Sub / Recover slashed if you're uncomfortable approving straight SubCM) is much better than bulky mono-CM since it runs through defensive teams, KOs Ho-Oh after SR at +1, and still has enough bulk to soft check quite a few offensive threats.
 

Fireburn

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The order for Ghostceus should go SD > SubCM (needs analysis) > Support.

SubCM (or offensive with Sub / Recover slashed if you're uncomfortable approving straight SubCM) is much better than bulky mono-CM since it runs through defensive teams, KOs Ho-Oh after SR at +1, and still has enough bulk to soft check quite a few offensive threats.
This is probably enough to justify a revamp. Any takers?
 

Minority

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I did a sweep of what we currently have on site and here are the things I found worth bringing up. I am not arguing for their viability, merely pointing out things that are commonly used (or what should / can be used) that aren't reflected in the analyses.


Arceus-Normal: No Adamant slash or mention of Adamant + Life Orb, no Recover slash or moves mentions

Arceus-Dark: The recently finished Perish set is not up yet

Arceus-Dragon: The introduction is a weird copy paste of the two introductions that were made for it: the original which was done from the perspective of its offensive sets and the new one that was written for the support set. The introduction should be re-written so that it flows much better and communicates that the support set is somewhat common while the offensive sets are rare and often unexpected threats

Arceus-Fairy: Slashing Toxic after Earth Power on the Recover + 3 Attacks set (requires the set name to be changed as well)

Arceus-Fighting: Making Stone Edge mandatory and slashing Ice Beam with Thunder Wave

Arceus-Ghost: Ordering the sets as SD > CM > Support. Redoing the CM set to feature Substitute

Arceus-Grass: Adding a set that is 4 Attacks or Recover + 3 Attacks. It has a CM set that may want to be replaced by this

Arceus-Ground: No moves mention of Extreme Speed, no Judgment + Ice Beam set

Arceus-Water: No Timid Slash

Blaziken: Slashing Life Orb over Mega Stone, moving Baton Pass from moves to a slash

Darkrai: Slashing the final moveslot as Thunder / Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast. Slashing Focus Sash after Life Orb. Sucker Punch in OO

Deoxys-A: Eliminating HP Fire slash and moving it to OO. Making Ice Beam the first slash on 3rd moveset. EV spread changed to 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe / Rash slashed with Naive (current spread is slower than Mega Gengar when using a SpA+ nature). This one may require a full revamp

Dialga: Making the offensive set the first, then the support set second. The Choice Scarf set should have Sleep Talk unslashed. No Trick Room set (it is in OO at least)

Giratina-O: Toxic slash with Draco Meteor on the Hex set

Primal Groudon: This could benefit from a full revamp, the content isn't blatantly wrong but I think the sets and all the EV spreads / move sets could be reorganized. Also no SpD spread and no use of Rest outside of OO

Ho-Oh: Tweaking EV spreads. No mention of Substitute

Mega Kangaskhan: No Adamant slash (should be first). Slashing Crunch before Sucker Punch

Klefki: No Dazzling Gleam mention not even OO

Primal Kyogre: Making the order of sets Defensive > CM > Physical. Slashing Ice Beam before Blizzard on CM. Slashing Thunder Wave on CM. Perhaps a full revamp of the CM set instead and renaming it Offensive

Mega Mawile: No mention of Foul Play outside of OO

Mega Salamence: Doing a full revamp. Otherwise cleaning up the EV spreads and move sets a bit and updating descriptions on a whole

Xerneas: Update the coverage slashing for the first set. Sweep rejected the idea of Rest + Geo getting a set, but at the very least it should be in OO (set apart from the Block mention)

Yveltal: Moving Knock Off to moves or even a slash on the first set
 
Fireburn and I looked over the list Minority posted at the top of the page and agreed on most of it. This means these 3 mons will need revamps for the purposes of updating them for the "modern meta":

Primal Groudon - Taken by Minority Suspect
Salamence

To ensure the best quality, only those approved by the mods can take these revamps. Generally if you are a badgeholder or established Ubers player this won't be an issue.

The rest will be done through on-site edits by the Ubers mods.
 

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