ORAS UU Viability Rankings V5

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Sun

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After the ban of of Salamence, Doublade is definitely a better term, we can see the raise of Cresselia and Sylveon in usage that makes Doublade a very good option in a build to address them, it is also very good also to keep at bay the ubiquitous mega Aerodactyl and mega Beedrill (even it is having a better time), and finally the popularity of some type fight as Cobalion, Toxicroak and Luke, and the popolarity of Crobat make Doublade very effective at this time of the metagame, obviously you need support to work well and threaten the opposing team, then I propose a raise of Doublade to B+


 

I think Empoleon is deserving a small rise to A rank. Specifically, It's a fairly versatile Pokemon that can fit on many teams via its means of serving as a great special wall, utility (in hazard control getting both Defog and rocks, while also resisting rocks) , or a offensive set. All to pretty good success. I think it pulls it's weight in each of these roles.
Offensive Empo serves as a great way to beat threats you normally wouldn't otherwise thanks to Empo's great power and bulk.

vs

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 222-262 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile;
252+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Swampert: 396-468 (116.1 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Means Empo is a valid switch in when it sets up rain and can RK easily.

vs

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 238-281 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

^ Empoleon is also a really good switch in if your mon currently out on the field is weak to ice as Empo takes nothing from ice attacks.

Meanwhile;
252+ SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 390-462 (108 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 125-148 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 368-434 (122.2 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Empoleon: 253-298 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bad set I know but just showing the overall power.


252+ SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 344-408 (103.9 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's some Pokemon in subranks higher than Empo that the penguin can reliably 1v1 as long as you aren't careless.. Lol.

It's also able to beat Sylveon 1v1 with stab flash cannon, able to phase out a subDD Gyarados while taking nothing of its attacks short of multiple DD's, and can dent many threats on switch in with the right play. I think it's to versatile a mon to be sitting down in the subranks of A-.
 

Hogg

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I disagree with a Doublade rise. Salamence leaving seems to help, until you remember that Krookodile usage is higher than it has ever been (it's sitting pretty at #2 in usage for UU Open), Tentacruel usage has been rising steadily and will do so even further now that Mence is gone (as hazard removal is so hard to find in the tier), and most teams can't afford running a Steel-type that can't actually switch into Sylveon.

I like Doublade, and it's still great at checking the things it checks (Cobalion in particular), but I don't think this meta is very friendly to it at all.
 
I disagree with a Doublade rise. Salamence leaving seems to help, until you remember that Krookodile usage is higher than it has ever been (it's sitting pretty at #2 in usage for UU Open), Tentacruel usage has been rising steadily and will do so even further now that Mence is gone (as hazard removal is so hard to find in the tier), and most teams can't afford running a Steel-type that can't actually switch into Sylveon.

I like Doublade, and it's still great at checking the things it checks (Cobalion in particular), but I don't think this meta is very friendly to it at all.
To further this, I would argue to think that Cress' popularity has risen mostly because Hydreigon lost competiton as a general Dragon wallbreaker in the form of Salamence. Furthermore, Krook's increased splashability suppresses a spike in Cress popularity.
 
Hi, I don't think this has been discussed in much detail at this point, so here's the nomination:



Nominating Whimsicott to drop from A to A-:

Whimsicott as an offensive fairy:

The metagame has really not been too kind to this poor ball of cotton. Firstly, with the ban of Salamence, the usage and viability of other spinners/defoggers like Tentacruel and Crobat are increasing, which happen to be very solid offensive checks to Whimsicott. Notably Crobat (rising notably by 6% ) makes its offensive set harder to utilize, and it often feels like you may as well use Sylveon if you want to run an offensive fairy in UU, as unlike Whimsicott, it can actually break down its checks through coverage options (Psyshock for the king, queen and crobat; shadow ball/HP Fire for Metagross). While Encore is nice on this set, it's not as useful due to the fact that one of its main purposes -- stopping DD mence -- is no longer needed. Finally, Sylveon's natural bulk, even on an offensive set, still provides defensive utility in that it reliably checks mons like Hydreigon, which Whimsicott struggles with due to its lower natural bulk and vulnerability to common coverage options like fire blast. Despite the utility that offensive Whimsicott provides, the fact that it basically gives free switches (and thus a turn to spin/defog) for Crobat/Tentacruel (among a myriad of checks, like M-Aggron which is also rising in usage, most likely because of Sylveon) in addition to its lack of coverage, makes it hard to justify using over an offensive Sylveon.

Whimsicott as a support Pokemon:

While the support set is not entirely outclassed, it faces very stiff competition from Celebi, which makes its overall viability worse. Celebi's better natural bulk, access to Stealth Rocks and Thunder Wave (not having to rely on stun spore), while also having natural cure to check bulky waters like Suicune and Milotic is often a superior option to anything Whimsicott has to offer. Furthermore, Celebi's reliable recovery makes it at times much harder to wear down compared to Whimsicott. Whimsicott's advantages lie in the fact that it checks Pokemon like M-Blastoise, Hydreigon and Krookodile (which Celebi can't hope to check effectively) while also providing Tailwind, Encore and Memento support. However, despite this, Celebi is oftentimes superior, meaning the Whimsicott isn't the go-to option for a disruptive grass type as it was before.

Overall, the rise in Whimsicott's offensive checks for its offensive set, in addition to new options that are often more viable to use over Whimsicott's support set, makes life in UU for this cute ball of cotton much more difficult.
 
While i do agree that whimsicott has gotten worse with mence leaving i feel like you're emphasizing its support set inaccurately. I don't use it that much but i feel like support whims main use is for encore stopping setup sweepers as well as being able to somewhat break stall with taunt (which celebi can do pretty easily with nasty plot or SD), and then being a secondary check to like waters and whatever. Good options it can also run with its priority are tailwind/memento to set up a sweep which celebi cant do for sure. the support sets for the two are pretty different tbh so i don't think you can really compare the two that much besides being grass types.
offensively it also faces competition, although its high speed is noteworthy in being able to threaten out/not take damage from more mons than sylveon for example. also it can priority stun spore or memento/tailwind to cripple switchins or set up a sweep which no other fairy can do (besides maybe gard? i feel like that thing gets memento lol)
 
Any particular set that was dominant? I don't encounter Salamance that much in UU but then again I'm a low rank player.
I would recommend reading the first two pages of this thread because that's where all the discussion on Salamence happened. The general consensus seemed to be that while the tier appreciated Salamence's Defogging capabilities, trying to build against the rests of its sets, mainly DD and Mixed, was too much of a hassle for the UU tier. All this said, the viability rankings is not the best place to have this kind of discussion, as it would be better suited for a thread like the Simple Questions one.
 

ehT

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Well RIP Tangrowth :(



That said, in light of Shaymin's drop to RU, I think a drop to B-, or maybe even lower, might be in order. I know that usage =! viability, but it's been in constant decline since the start of ORAS for a reason, that reason being that pretty much every metagame shift except the Mence ban since that time has turned out badly for it. Between the ubiquity of Escav and Bronzong, the unreliability of the one move that gives it a niche (Pressure's a bitch), and most importantly, the arrival of practically a straight upgrade in Celebi, I see very little reason to use it in this current meta. Celebi was really the nail in the coffin for it, IMO, since not only is it simply a better 'mon (secondary STAB, reliable recovery, setup moves, support moves, etc etc), but its presence has also brought about a rise of Shaymin's natural counters, namely the aforementioned Bronzong and Escav. Its niche in Seed Flare is hard-pressed even further by the fact that Celebi can easily run NP + Leaf Storm, which is an underrated set IMO, making it a better breaker in most cases. Really the only reason I can think of to use this thing right now is if your team's particularly Dark weak but you still need a Water check, gl versus any offensive Water carrying Ice + Dark coverage. Min is really struggling to find a place right now, and has done for a long time, since it's too niche and too inconsistent to be considered on par with the likes of the rest of B Rank, and it's for this reason that I think is should drop.
 

dingbat

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Hi

This is an early nom, but i don't think that matters because it's not gonna be very relevant in uu , so ima go ahead and nom Quagsire for C rank, precisely where it was the last time it roamed in UU, because not much has really changed for the better of it during its absence. It can check Gatr, Gyara, Cresselia, Cobalion, Slurpuff and other select setup sweepers (crawdaunt/haxorus are two big exceptions) while still blanket checking fire types/aero/blabla in one slot but there is a greater concentration of threats in this tier (sylveon, hydreigon to name a couple) that can just flat out wallbreak quagsire; being Celebi bait certainly does not help its cause either. Unlike OU, where it is a very vital part of (i think) most stall teams, i just don't see it being anywhere near as successful in this tier.

As for other noms:

I agree with A- for whimsicott; it's still a huge deterrent 'mon because of its great typing, speed tier, and and i highly doubt it will go any lower than A-, but cott is definitely not A rank caliber right now because its ability to switch into the big threats is shakier than ever right now. I also agree with bsu's argument about cott's support though, whimsicott absolutely cannot be compared to celebi in this department especially when one of its most important niches is prankster encore.

Gatr fits perfectly in B+ where Crayfish is; it's still a good SD user with solid physical bulk, but its inability to stomach shit like draco meteors from hydreigon really sucks and being caught in an annoying speed tier while being a lot weaker than Crawdaunt certainly doesn't help its case, either. Super gatr still best gatr tho

Cobalion is still an A+ 'mon imo; it's still very damn splashable on balance/offense, even though (as usual) conkeldurr is an annoying piece of shit. Maybe lower A+, because i do think krook and sylv are better in general imo, but it's not quite out of it atm.

Umby sux, move to B-
 
While i do agree that whimsicott has gotten worse with mence leaving i feel like you're emphasizing its support set inaccurately. I don't use it that much but i feel like support whims main use is for encore stopping setup sweepers as well as being able to somewhat break stall with taunt (which celebi can do pretty easily with nasty plot or SD), and then being a secondary check to like waters and whatever. Good options it can also run with its priority are tailwind/memento to set up a sweep which celebi cant do for sure. the support sets for the two are pretty different tbh so i don't think you can really compare the two that much besides being grass types.
offensively it also faces competition, although its high speed is noteworthy in being able to threaten out/not take damage from more mons than sylveon for example. also it can priority stun spore or memento/tailwind to cripple switchins or set up a sweep which no other fairy can do (besides maybe gard? i feel like that thing gets memento lol)
I'll rephrase what I meant. I'm not implying that Whimsicott has gotten worse in its support set; its ability to stop setup sweepers with prankster encore provides invaluable team support for certain builds. What I'm saying is that there is a wider variety of support grass mons you can use with the introduction of Celebi, thus making Whimsicott less viable to use compared to before when Celebi wasn't around.
 

Kink

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I'll rephrase what I meant. I'm not implying that Whimsicott has gotten worse in its support set; its ability to stop setup sweepers with prankster encore provides invaluable team support for certain builds. What I'm saying is that there is a wider variety of support grass mons you can use with the introduction of Celebi, thus making Whimsicott less viable to use compared to before when Celebi wasn't around.
I don't think it's correct to say that the inclusion of Celebi has hindered Whimsicott's support capabilities. That doesn't really make sense. The argument could be made that Whims competes for a slot, but the support moves and abilities of Whims and Celebi are quite different and the teambuilding will reflect those differences in many ways due to their secondary typing. Whims is just fine where it is in my opinion, Salmence leaving doesn't really affect its ability to stop sweepers cold while checking what it needs to check. It's one of the best multi-faceted pivots in the tier with one of the most diverse support movepools and the rank reflects that.
 
Nominating Shuckle to B
I know it sounds odd, since Shuckle doesn't really get much attention in the first place, but I'm going to take a risk in saying that I think it's really underestimated in the uu metagame. Sticky web can be a huge asset to a team, since it makes huge threats like Mamoswine, Sylveon, Nidoking and Gyarados extremely hard to revenge kill and very hard to stop from sweeping. Not only is Shuckle an extremely reliable webs setter, but alongside webs, it can set up rocks and (if needed) knock off game-changing items such as Sylveon's choice specs or Doublade's eviolite. While some may argue that Shuckle's abysmal offenses keep it from doing anything other than setting up hazards, the underrated combination of infestation and toxic can help Shuckle to break down walls, put anything that isn't a poison type or reuniclus on a serious timer, and grant a teammate a free switch-in. Overall, Shuckle can be such a valuable team member to some of the tier's top threats, while doing quite a bit of chip damage to the pokemon expected to be able to come in on it. It's such an underrated support mon, and imo is definitely deserving of B.

Edit: Forgot to mention that by virtue of Shuckle's amazing defenses, it can usually set rocks and/or webs up again in the case of defoggers or rapid spinners!
 
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r0ady

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Added a latest update hide tag to the bottom of the op and removed Tangrowth. Ill be updating this tomorrow so continue discussion n_n
 

Hilomilo

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I think Quagsire should be ranked to about C or C+. While on paper, it seems like a good stop to set up sweepers like SD Cobalion or DD Gyarados, it's a bit of a mixed bag. While it can check physical set up sweepers with relative ease, it can't apply much offensive pressure to what it can check at all, as Gyarados and Cresselia are immune to earthquake and won't take much from scald aside from a potential burn, which, due to the common sight of cleric Sylveon or Florges on the same team as these mons for balance, doesn't give them much to worry about (Gyarados also runs lum berry frequently). Speaking of status, Quagsire is NOT appreciative of burns and especially toxic, as its put on a major timer when its goal is to put other mons on timers. It's also really hard to justify on a team when Sableye acts as a more reliable answer to these mons with prankster WoW and when its frequent loss to powerful special attackers in Sylveon, Reuniclus and Mega Blastoise is considered (Mega Blastoise 2hkoes with dark pulse, Reuni 2hkoes with psychic or focus balst and Sylv ohkoes with hyper voice). Overall, Quagsire is okay at checking the things it checks, but is only valuable to rare play styles in the current meta and is walled and KO'd by some of the tier's most prevalent special attackers, which is why it deserves C+/C.
 

r0ady

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Changes:

Whimsicott -> A-

Umbreon -> B-

Feraligatr -> B+

These were all explained pretty well in the posts above so go read those

Cobalion -> A:
Dodmen summed up its issues pretty well, still a fantastic Pokemon, however isnt quite on the level as the other A+ mons

Haxorus -> B-:
Losing mence is pretty big, as now its not outclassed in most of the rolls it can preform, could move it up further but could use some more discussion.

Things that were brought up and could use more discussion:

Heracross -> B+

Sableye -> A-

As for shark i was honestly taken aback at it getting nommed down as i was considering moving it up in A, im keeping it where it is now but if theres alot of opposition to it being in A ill move it.
 
hey since i think u forgot to add quag in there, i nom it to C-
It pretty much only fits on one play style (stall) and i see it as on par with something like shedinja who requires immense team support.
quagsire also doesn't even check like half of the physical mons it should be checking
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%)
haxorus destroys
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) just needs a little prior damage to 2KO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%)
etc.

it essentially needs another backup check to physical attackers, which u can afford to run only on like stall teams
 
Personally I think Virizion could be bumped up to B or B+. Its superior Speed and Fighting STAB give it a niche over Celebi - the latter lets it blow straight through Snorlax, Umbreon and Porygon2. With the right move it could get around many of its usual checks - Stone Edge OHKOes Chandelure and 2HKOes Crobat on the switch; you could even use X-Scissor if you need a Celebi lure. Grass type sweepers are a hot commodity with so many Water types around, and right now I think Virizion is second only to Celebi in that regard.
 

Kreme

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Personally I think Virizion could be bumped up to B or B+. Its superior Speed and Fighting STAB give it a niche over Celebi - the latter lets it blow straight through Snorlax, Umbreon and Porygon2. With the right move it could get around many of its usual checks - Stone Edge OHKOes Chandelure and 2HKOes Crobat on the switch; you could even use X-Scissor if you need a Celebi lure. Grass type sweepers are a hot commodity with so many Water types around, and right now I think Virizion is second only to Celebi in that regard.
Well honestly its niche has been mostly the same for a while now and I don't think the introduction of Celebi makes it higher up on the rankings, if anything it affects Virizion negatively. The thing about Virizion is that it's been the same for quite a while now and I don't think metagame changes have made it a better choice than before. Water-types have always been prominent as defensive walls so that hasn't changed, Virizion running Stone Edge so it can smack Crobat / Chandelure's been around so that hasn't changed either, nor has it having access to Fighting-STAB. The problem with Virizion is that as a Grass-type, while it may be one of the few physically offensive Grass-types, being physically offensive just means you're ability to check Water-types is much worse due to Scald affecting Virizion much more severely. Another thing about Virizion is that it's moreso competing with Fighting-types for a place on teams I feel, as its presence dissuades the use of other Fighting-types on the team due to fear of stacking weaknesses and such, or if you're using another Fighting-type anyway, you might as well have Celebi or another Grass-type in Virizion's place instead. Honestly I'm not sure why Grass-type sweepers would be in hot commodity considering Steel-, Fire- and Poison-types are being stacked on teams nowadays due to the presence of Sylveon, which adversely affects Virizion and Grass-types in general anyhow, and as I said earlier, Water-types have always been one of the premier defensive typings in the tier so that hasnt changed. So overall against Virizion rising, especially since I don't feel it stands up to much of what's in B- as is, less so B and B+.
 
Does Virizion get anyting but Hidden Power Bug to hit Celebi on the special side? I feel like you're giving up coverage either way because what beats Celebi just loses to Crobat (Maero obviously OHKOs, but it takes neutral damage from Virizion's STABs so can't afford to directly switch in on boosted moves).
 

Hilomilo

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As much as I hate to say it, Virizion really doesn't have any business rising. It can only sweep once it's set up, which is something Celebi doesn't usually need to do, and is hard to do considering its physical frailty and the prevalence of physical pokemon that can ko it when it tries to sweep, such as Entei, Toxicroak and Infernape. Teams with Crobat (a mon drastically rising in popularity) and Mega Aero/Beedrill can just read a swords dance and come in on it to ohko with their super effective stabs (Beedrill will need to protect the first turn its out). Overall, nothing has really changed for Virizion to make it a better mon in the current meta, and the drops of Celebi and Sylveon not only gave it threats to worry about, but a pokemon that can outclass it in a physical role as well. (It also either loses to Celebi or Crobat, as mentioned above)
 
Heracross to B+ seems pretty justified. It really just doesn't compare to the A- fighting types and is really more on par with Lucario, especially considering that Bulk Up and banded variants of Conk are better vs stall and are really only worse at tearing through Cress/Florges/Sylveon + Steel type cores.

Sableye's drop seems reasonable too, since its impossible for the thing to switch into neutral stabs and stay alive long afterward. It seems that the thing has to spam recover to stay alive vs threats like Infernape, Crobat and Celebi, and Sylveon just tears through the thing. Its just not as easy for Sableye to do its job anymore, drop to mid/low A-.

Shark could also afford to drop, since banded Conk always carries Mach Punch and will survive any of shark's hits to take a good chunk of its damage away with anything bar knock off. It's also hard to deny that it fits onto any play style other than HO.

Virizion doesn't need a rise. Kreme and Hilomilo pretty much perfectly summed up why, so just read above if you aren't convinced.

Lastly, I also think Toxicroak warrants a drop. Discussion on its drop never really picked up much traction, but its stuck in a below average speed tier, is destroyed by faster pokemon that resist dark with any sort of coverage due to its awful bulk and reliance on sucker punch to hit what outspeeds it, and just stacks weaknesses onto teams. Let's not forget that Cress is very popular and rips the thing to shreds and that if it even wants to hurt anything that isn't weak to its stabs, it needs to set up, which isn't easy considering everything I mentioned before. Still love it, and it can still put in work, but its niche as a scald absorber isn't enough for me to believe it compares to the A- fighting types like Conkeldurr and Infernape anymore.
 
I don't agree with Heracross dropping, STAB Megahorn lets the Choice Band or status orb set 2HKO Cresselia, something most Fighting-types can only dream of. Band Conkeldurr isn't a good set - Assault Vest or Bulk Up are much better sets. Heracross, Machamp and Pangoro run Band sets better than Conk since they have better Speed and strong STABs not named Superpower. Pangoro even has a scouting move in Parting Shot.

Sableye I agree with, it's just not bulky enough. While its typing may only give it one weakness, it also lacks resistances, making it hard to switch in effectively. Most Fire-types can destroy it without too much trouble.

Sharpedo I also agree with, but not because of Band Conkeldurr (that set sucks, it's way too slow) - it gets one chance to sweep, unlike Mega Swampert, and it's not that fast, powerful or bulky.

Toxicroak...Yeah it does have the USP of countering Suicune, but beyond that it's just not that good. Most Ground-types stop it cold, and it's not very powerful before boosting. It also can't claim to be the only Fighting type not scared of Fairies, as Cobalion and Lucario can beat them as well.
 
Sableye definitely has to drop. The ban of salamence has dug its grave, as it was able to stop a sweep from scarf mence and recover against special LO mence. Obviously it just dies to sylveon's hyper voice and can't do much to entei or any fire type. Its set is also too predictable. Furthermore, as it has a role of stallbreaker and stall is very difficult to play with in UU currently, its a dead weight most of the time. The only reason to use it is to stop some mons like scarf or band krookodile to sweep, but whimsicott do this job better.
 

YABO

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Banded conk is a good set what are you on about? Guts and Iron Fist both have merit for either insane power or utility as a status absorber. Oh and there's this little thing called STAB priority which is pretty good too. Also conkeldurr is like 100x better than pangoro that thing sucks
 
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