Resource OU No Mega Viability Ranking Thread

[Mango Smoothie]

Torn-T rise: Disagree. I'm with Lil Yoshi on this one, its really aggravating when your main damaging moves, not to mention your only STAB option, have 70% accuracy. Another thing I have against Torn-T is that its doesn't really 'outlast its checks' factoring in its rocks weakness (which is barely offset by Regenerator) and how status-prone it is, not to mention it isn't really naturally bulky outside of AV making it one of the easier pivots to wear down. Granted its probably one of the best Offensive Pivots we have, but I don't find it quite as 'good' as the stuff in A+ rank, definitely not to the point that its S.

Gatr rise: Agree. Sheer Force makes Feraligator hit about as hard as Gyarados without the positive nature, not to mention it doesn't have that nasty SR weakness which makes getting it in (and keeping it alive) easier. Another notable advantage is its priority to offset revenge killing attempts (which means it can go for adamant since at +1 it outspeeds the entire tier) and also the fact that it isn't relying on a move that requires a charge turn for coverage. I think its at least B-, since its better than most of the stuff in C+ and roughly as good as B- (not much is comparable, from using both I'd say its puts in as much work if not more work than Heracross)

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celebi drop: Neutral. Its easy to take advantage of, although its baton passing sets are pretty reliable and moderately threatening themselves. I could see this one going either way, kind of leaning towards drop though.

Weavile rise: Agree. Honestly, I feel like Weavile is a better Knock Off spammer than Bisharp, but thats just me. Overall a really good offensive pokemon that seems to steamroll every team I manage to build.

Serperior rise: Agree. Serperior is great. Contrary Leaf Storm is great, its powerful, and it snowballs pretty fast if your opponent doesn't immediately have something faster/Heatran. Granted, its kind of weak if it hasn't set up, and that turn before it goes for the first Leaf Storm is kind of exploitable/predictable.

Kyu-B rise: Neutral. I haven't used it enough to have much of an opinion. If I had to pick a side I'd say rise since I like balance and LO Kyu-B rips balance in half.

I'd like to (re)propose:
Gorebyss unranked since its niche of smash-passing is now illegal, and to my knowledge it had no other notable niche.

Smeargle drop to D for similar reasoning to Gorebyss, although Smeargle has the suicide lead thing going for it. The description of D rank is "These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it." which sounds a lot like Smeargle to me.

Clefable to S This was brought up earlier, so I won't go into too much detail, but Clefable is one of the most self-sufficienent pokemon and can fulfill so many roles on bulkier teams that often times its hard (at least for me) to justify not using it. Its a great glue and has a lot of support/movepool options to choose from.

Maybe more to come.

 

[Sun]

Gatr to A,is very good in this tier
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Weavile rise,this speed,knock off,and priority make him a threat for this tier :)

 

[Celticpride]

BP stuff (Espeon, Smeargle, Gorebyss) removed. Wouldn't mind re-adding later if they are shown to have use but for now the purpose seems dead. In other news:

Gatr to B
Celebi to B+
Serp to A-
Weavile to A+
Kyurem-B to A

Small update but most of those changes are self-explanatory. Mango Smoothie summed up my thoughts on Weavile, Serp, and Kyu-B well. A+ may seem a little high for Weavile but it's close to Bisharp in how effective it is. Celebi was more of a gut feeling. It just seems more squeezed in this meta for whatever reason. Still can be effective but this thread does need drops occasionally lol. Put Gatr at B because I see it as really effective in my experience. That Sheer Force + LO combo is just sooo good at dealing out raw damage.

Time to start the Hoopa discussion btw. I was thinking:

A+ for Hoopa-U
B- for Hoopa-C

Basically same split as the OU VR. Sorry to be boring but those just seem like very middle of the road rankings to start at. Hoopa-U is close to S imo but I'm not putting a newly introduced mon in S right away lol. Clone also has fun thoughts on Clefable if he wants to share them.

 

[Josh]

I would like to nom Breloom rise from B+ to A/A-. Sashed breloom is just such a good lead. You're guaranteed to get a spore of 90% of the time, then can either set up with sd ddpending on the set or predict the switch and rock tomb allowing you to be faster to nearly every month. And of course breloom is just a beast in general, with technician stab priority. This thing is pretty guaranteed to get at least 1 kill if you know what you're doing, and people nearly always switch out after a spore so you can easily get more momentum as well. Or, you can take the other approach of LO breloom and use priority (if you dont outspeed) to stop sweeps and cleanly revenge if you prefer that.
In general breloom is just a beast. I'll post some calcs and full sets later when I'm not on mobile if requested. It's easily on par with most of the mons in A.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

(Is it just me or are pretty much all the grass types stuck in A- and B+?)
I can maybe see Breloom in A-, but I think A is pushing it. Breloom is great with the threat of spore which can give momentum early game, but once something is asleep its really meh compared to other stuff that could do whatever its trying to do better. Fighting type SD Sweeping? Lucario/Terrakion are pretty good at that (and more powerful). LO Attacker/Wallbreaker? There are plenty of wallbreakers in the tier. Toxic Orb? Gliscor actually has bulk to switch in on stuff. Conkeldurr also has the bulk to take hits from things. Even with Spore Breloom will likely not get another chance outside of the first few turns to get a spore off unless you play really carefully with it, or are up against a slower team if you opt for LO. Compared to whats in A (and even A- to a bit), Breloom has such a small window of good opportunity to really shine compared to stuff that can have a variety of different contributions to a team (Terrakion can go early game suicide lead or Scarf, Hippowdon checks like 95% of physical meta, Starmie is probably the best offensive spinner, etc).

I'd like to nominate for a Scizor drop because A rank is too crowded. U-Turn for momentum is great, but Scizor doesn't have many exploitable immunities and takes all sorts of hazard damage, which means sets that lack roost get worn down quickly if they try switching in. Its speed isn't very good either, which means it will take at least one hit if it doesn't force your opponents pokemon out. Not to mention Scizor's coverage moves all have viable switchins for all playstyles, which means unless its spamming U-turn Banded sets are going to get forced out kind of often, and SD doesn't really have the immediate power that other sets have (not to mention Bullet Punch gets meh coverage against faster things).

Lastly, I'd like to nominate Gourgeist-Small to be ranked (I think C or C-). Long version in hide tag, but tl;dr Gourgeist-S has a niche as a fast subseeder who checks a lot of the unboosted metagame (ex: Azumarill, Excadrill, Dragonite) thanks to typing and will-o-wisp, as well as beat defensive pokemon lacking Toxic thanks to bulk/substitute. Leech Seed along with WoW wears opponents for ~1/4 of their HP, and Substitute adds to the mix by blocking weak attacks and status. Gourgeist however is complete Clefable/Volcarona/Gengar/Talonflame/Taunt/Strong Special Attacker bait, and as such requires a fair amount of support to function well (granted all teams need good answers to these threats, Heatran for instance covers a lot of them and likes kind of support Gourgeist brings).

Full Gourgeist Nomination with Replays

I used the following set:
PU You Stink (Gourgeist-Small) @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 184 Spe
Bold Nature
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Disable / Destiny Bond

Gourgeist's niche is that its a fast spinblocker (rise of Bisharp makes Defog kind of risky) who can serve as a reliable answer to unboosted offensive threats like Azumarill, Excadrill, Keldeo, Dragonite (you can also cripple stuff like Bisharp with WoW) as well as take advantage of defensive Ground, Grass, and Water-types without toxic like Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, and Slowbro. Frisk is nice in that it telegraphs your opponents set to you (CB vs BD Azumarill, Choice vs CM Keldeo, LO VS Rocky Helmet Garchomp). The EVs let you outspeed Timid Heatran, beating all spinners save for Offensive Starmie. This also lets you beat Heatran if it switches in on a Leech Seed/Substitute, or you get a timely Disable since you outspeed all non scarf variants (it'll take a while if Heatran is defensive, but eventually you'll break through). Leech Seed+Will-O-Wisp takes off almost 1/4 of your opponents HP each turn, and helps with substitutes by providing recovery and weakening opponents attacks respectively. The last move is kind of a toss up, I've found the most consistent use out of disable (sub-disable shenanigans) because it lets you stall more turns and gives you at least 3 more turns against defensive heatrans (also good if you don't want to waste other PP against Stall), while Destiny Bond can let you get a last ditch kill off/buy you an extra turn. It comes down to if you want Gourgeist to do better vs Defense or Offense.
EDIT: Another interesting option is Explosion, which on paper looks nice at least.

Granted, Gourgeist is really passive outside of chip damage, meaning special set up pokemon like Volcarona and Clefable will have a field day (faster special attackers in general can also have a field day with Gourgeist). Talonflame as well as Knock Off spam are among the thorns Gourgeist's shell (heh heh pumpkin anatomy), however all teams need to have strong answers for these kinds of threats, and Gourgeist can threaten most all Knock Off users with Will-O-Wisp. Heatran is a notable teammate in that it can beat most special attackers, can stop Clefable and Volcarona with Taunt+Toxic, and at the very least checks Talonflame. Gourgeist can take on ground-types, weaken physical attacks, and also provide more recovery in the form of Leech Seed for Heatran.

I suggest C or C- for Gourgeist because its similar to Whimsicott in that both fulfill a similar niche (fast subseed nuissance). I think its a rank above Whimsicott because if Will-O-Wisp and more durable substitutes (whereas Whimsicott is mostly just annoying), although I can see how Prankster Utility could even the two out.

Gourgeist Replays: Sand Offense / Balance / Sand Offense Again / Stall

will have commentary about hooopa at a later point.

EDIT: grammar

 

[migul]

Kyurem B is both in A and A-. Is that an error?

 

[Celticpride]

Kyurem B is both in A and A-. Is that an error?

That's an error. Someone else already pointed that out to me. Fixed now.

 

[Funbot28]

Time to update:

Unranked to S: Hoopa-U is already an amazing wallbreaker in the OU tier, but now since they are no bulky megas in Venusaur and Slowbro, Hoopa has an easier time adapting. There is also less of a power creep, and it's average speed is more manageable here. It also has the strongest Knock Off in the game, which really merits it's ranking, as nothing really wants to switch into a 160 Atk STAB Life Orb boosted Knock Off in this meta.

A to A+: Tornadus-T is an amazing mon in OU (No Mega) as it can easily take powerful hits with an AV, and has major longevity with Regenerator. There are less powerful threats like I mentioned before, and STAB Hurricanes really hurt. Overall, it's a great pivot mon that doesn't really mind hazards, and should rise.

A- to A: Serperior is another mon who benefits from the loss of faster threats like Mega Loppuny, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Metagross. It can easily spam Leaf Storms, and easily start sweeping. Talon is a problem, but still should rise.

 

[SketchUp]

- I have been using Hoopa-U in a dark spam team with Bisharp + Hoopa-U and Hoopa shows that it can easily break through the most common checks / counters of Bisharp and it is able to weaken checks like Klefki and Mandibuzz extremely well. I honestly won't mind this going to S immediately, simply because it is able to break through the common Heatran balanced teams with zero effort while still having good utility against bulky offensive teams with its nice SpD (and possibly a scarf)

- I'd personally drop this to B+. Checking some of the most dangerous threats like Lando-T, Excadrill and of course Bisharp is great, but it has some big flaws that don't make it A- rank worthy. Most notably is of course that it gives a free switch in to pokemon like Talonflame, Tornadus-T and Clefable and the only thing it can do to compensate this is to lay Spikes (which is not even that great because it loses to every spinner and defogger bar Excadrill) It's very reliant on Leftovers to stay healthy, and because it is used as a Knock Off absorber on many teams, it won't keep those leftovers for too long.

- I have to disagree with Mango Smoothie here because I don't think Hurricanes accuracy is a good enough argument to not let it rise. After playing with this on the ladder and in some tours it looks like nobody prepares for the LO set outside of Rotom-W. I agree with you that AV is not the set that pushes it to A+ but from my experience LO definitely does as it has a great speed tier, high fire power and regenerator to compensate the life orb damage and the stealth rock weakness. It has a lot of viable moves for the last moveslot such as Taunt to break defensive cores even easier, Heat Wave to get past Jirachi and Knock Off because it's Knock Off.

- I think this is a similar case to Chesnaught as Gliscor is able to check some big threats such as Excadrill, Gengar and Bisharp but in the end it gives many threats it fails to beat a free switchin. Toxic is one of the best moveslots for Gliscor but it doesn't prevent a Kyurem-B, Keldeo or Latios to switch in and kill gliscor / force a switch. Not to mention that stuff it can't poison who are not weak to ground (clefable, icy wind gengar, ferro) have a free turn in front of Gliscors face. A+ just feels to high for a pokemon that fails to hit one of the pokemon of the opposing team; counters to gliscor are just way too common.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I agree with SketchUp for Hoopa-U being S, it rips holes through teams.

I disagree with the Gliscor drop, because it doesn't necessarily "give free switches" to a lot of things you mentioned. Kyu-B beats a lot of defensive things granted, but toxic puts it on a timer. Keldeo cannot come in for free because Earthquake does ~35-41%, and Latios takes a sizeable chunk from Knock Off (which I'm seeing used a lot more often). Latios also fails to OHKO specially defensive Gliscor with DM (does max of 85%), so Gliscor can roost off the damage if its healthy. MG Clefable loses to SD or Taunt Gliscor, Unaware ones loses to Taunt. Icy Wind Gengar (seeing something like 4% usage) does beat Gliscor, but Specially defensive Gliscor is also one of the few things that can pass as a way to handle almost every other gengar out there. Gliscor may not immediately threaten everything on the opposing team, but its a defensive pokemon who first and foremost needs to be able to take hits (which it can pretty well), and get chip damage on the switch (which it also can do pretty well for a defensive pokemon).

I'm also against Chesnaught dropping, recent trends outside of Hoopa-U (who kills balance/defense) and Torn-T's (Bird) popularity (Sand/Excadrill getting more popular, Azumarill usage going up, Talonflame usage going down a bit) have been kind to it. Also, you're underselling/a bit wrong about some of the things regarding Chesnaught. Chesnaught can handle most physical attackers between the A and B ranks, because of its high defenses and Leech Seed/Spiky Shield as chip damage (although it flat out loses to Talon, Weavile it can check but is a shaky one at that, Victini, Hawlucha, Infernape and Toxicroak). When I used it, I found it more consistently recovering with Leech Seed, which doubles as nice chip damage against switch-ins, and also Spiky Shield is another good way to get more chip damage.

I'll admit, I was underselling Torn-T and with LO it is really threatening (especially when Hurricane hits). I'm still a bit hesitant on the rise (In the long run, Torn-T will probably preform well, but the limited number of hurricanes/focus blasts launched per battle will mean that its performance could vary even with similar matchups because of accuracy issues), but disregarding that personal reservation I can see the reasoning behind a rise.

edit: wording