Research Group #6: Stoutland, Vanilluxe, Victreebel and Whiscash

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Introduction
NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Group aids in helping explore the tier. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.

Some rules
  • Be open-minded. Don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize.
  • Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymonning. At the end of the group, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.
  • Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
  • Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 4 Pokemon we are "researching". If you want to suggest something, send a forum Private Message to me. Also, Pokemon from past research weeks will be used again simply because the metagame has obviously changed since this project was last brought about.
The four Pokemon for this group (2/09/13):


These four were chosen upon four different types of weather, but I think they can also work outside of the specific weathers if given a chance. This can help you guys explore different types of weather you might not have tried before or simply get to know these Pokemon better. Can they work outside their specific weather? This will also also last at least til the end of the next two featured playstyles so I think it works in p well!

I want you guys to think about how to make these guys bigger threats and why they're not sitting up there with the big names when they have all this power ready to be unleashed.

Questions to consider when posting here

How useful are these Pokemon in NU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #neverused as well!

The Research Group Challenge

  • Users will use any number of the research group mons on their team
  • Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Breaking past the 2000 mark on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing the 1850 mark will secure you a Silver Class spot while a 1700 rating will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak in order to achieve this, and a pastebin of your team. Note: this is for Glicko2. You must also have a deviation of 85.
  • Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
  • If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
  • In order to participate in the challenge, simply post here with a brand new alt. Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.
  • The Hall of Fame will be on the NU hub soon!
Please include more substance in your posts than just "in" and what Pokemon you're using. What sets are you planning on using? What interests you about whatever Pokemon you're using? Remember: people who contribute a lot to Research Group will be listed on the hub page as an outstanding contributor for this Research Group (yes, I'm aware I'm c/ping this but I'm actually going to actively update the hub, so!)

Every few days during the group I'll post questions which I expect you guys to be involved in. If you have any questions about this project, feel free to send me a PM, otherwise just compete in the challenge, and actively post here too discussing the sets throughout the group. Remember that the NU mods keep an eye over everything even when they're asleep and you could get one step closer to earning CC if you actively post here and keep up discussion. n_n
 
whiscash of course works outside of weather - because it does not abuse weather at all. hydration really does not make it worth using on a rain team. in fact the only one in this research group that actually should be in weather is victreebel, because manual hail and sand is really bad.

anyways going back to whiscash, subdd is by far the best set on whiscash, as it can easily set up thanks to that excellent typing + bulk. the problem with whiscash is it takes quite a few boosts to get going, and is easily countered by most of the nu grass-types. it looks like a pretty interesting pokemon though so i'll try it out.

i wonder if victreebel can work as a standalone sweeper with sleep powder / sunny day / solarbeam / weather ball/sludge bomb, like ludicolo or exeggutor. this set has a big problem in only having one chance to really do anything, though. you're very reliant on sleep powder to set up, and if you do not set up, you're not only slow as shit, but if you choose weather ball as your coverage move, you pretty much cannot do anything outside of weather. outside of weather, i don't see victreebel being particularly useful, as it is pretty slow, fragile, and does not even hit like a nuke to compensate for being slow and frail.
 

Punchshroom

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Stoutland: There isn't much more to be said about Stoutland that hasn't been said already: without Sand, it has no hope of standing out from the slew of other Normal-types. As a Normal-type, it has 85/100/90/45/90/80 stats, which is actually pretty well-rounded. It has 2 usable abilities in Intimidate and Scrappy which are helpful, as well as perfet neutral coverage in Return + Superpower + Crunch. The problem starts when it tries to do something, only to find out something does it better. Normal + Fighting + Dark coverage is nothing special, as Zangoose and Quick Feet Ursaring can use them while boasting greater power and speed. Even when trying to use its abilities, something already has access to them: Tauros has Intimidate along with much greater speed and similiar power, while Kangaskhan has Scrappy plus priority moves and similiar bulk; even Exploud has a niche as a Scrappy Normal-type due to its usable Special attack and movepool. Stoutland does not have access to Double-Edge, meaning it cannot hit as hard as most other Normal-types. Even if it tries to perform a defensive role with moves like Thunder Wave, Yawn, Roar or Charm, Miltank and even Granbull pretty much outclass it. Miltank has Stealth Rock and reliable recovery, as well as having more abilities to pull off her tanking role leagues better than Stoutland; Granbull shares much of Stoutland's movepool and ability in Intimidate, but has one important move over Stoutland, Heal Bell, so Granbull has the upper hand over Stoutland as an 'bulky offensive Intimidate user'.

Pretty much the only way to use Stoutland is with manual Sand, but since Stoutland can't use Sandstorm its teammates have to do that for it. Not only do they revolve themselves around Stoutland's sweep, most often by sacrificing their item slot for Smooth Rock, but Stoutland cannot even make full use of the Sandstorm due to a minimum of 2 turns being automatically wasted before it enters battle. When it finally does, having a 102 base power move as your strongest attack, that isn't boosted by the weather no less, usually isn't enough to pull you through without even more team support. At this point, why bother using Stoutland over some other Normal-type that can sweep with greater efficiency? Stoutland seems like a lost cause, but if you can make it work then kudos to you.

Vanilluxe: Yet another Pokemon left behind in the dust due to superior choices of its type. Being unquestionably outshowed by Jynx as a sweeper (Jynx has 115/95 sweeper stats, Vanilluxe has 110/79), Vanilluxe is forced to use its other traits to stand out. Vanilluxe has respectable 71/85/95 bulk, but like Eelektross, it doesn't have the resistances or recovery move to make use of it. Oh wait, Vanilluxe is even worse off because it resists nothing but itself and its 4 weaknesses are very easy to exploit, so yeah the bulk may help it survive neutral hits but it won't last very long at all. Its movepool is barren, the only notable attacks consist of Ice, Normal and Steel, which is hardly a good start. Water Pulse and Flash Cannon are of little use when compared to Hidden Power, but that alone isn't a good sign. Interestingly it has Explosion, which could work well with its 95 base Attack to lure special walls and KO them, but it isn't usually enough to take them out in one hit. With access to Autotomize (basically an Agility which lightens the user <-- irrelevant), Vanilluxe would serve better as a sweeper than a full-time wallbreaker.

Autotomize Vanilluxe can use its good Ice coverage to nail a lot of fast threats, most of which are vulnerable to Ice or don't resist it, though Autotomze can be tricky to set up due to its lack of resistances. That's when the problem arises, pokemon that resist Ice are usually full stops to Vanilluxe, especially bulky Waters, due to its poor coverage which basically consists of Hidden Power, end list. Unlike Jynx, who can turn the tables on most Water-types thanks to Dry Skin, Vanilluxe has to bear the full brunt of their STABs while doing nothing in return, bar Exploding. Fire-, Steel- and even opposing Ice-types can pose problems as well, as Hidden Power usually isn't strong enough to cover them even if it is SE. That said, it could have marginal use in luring out bulky Waters and Exploding on them or sweeping with Ice Beams at +2 speed, but why not use Jynx who can take on bulky Waters and can equip a Scarf for Ice Beam sweeping (being Choice locked makes little difference from +2 Vanilluxe who basically only has Ice Beam anyway)?

Victreebel: Now this is something worth talking about. The doubled speed from Sun coupled with good mixed offenses are bad news enough, but its movepool is absolutely golden for a Sun sweeper. Growth is a good start, granting +2 to both offenses under Sun which Victreebel can definitely make use of, Sleep Powder shuts down an obstacle or provides a setup opportunity for said Growth, and Sun-fueled Weather Ball blows Hidden Power Fire out of the....water(?) as a coverage move. The rest of its movepool outside of the standard Chlorophyll sweeper set is icing on the cake: it has Swords Dance for non-Sun reliant boosting though this gives itself away as a Victreebel that has no special moves), and has Leaf Blade and Sucker Punch to go with it, the latter of which prevents easy revenge killing even as the Sun fades. Sludge Bomb is a non-Sun reliant alternative to crush Grass-types that aren't neutral to Poison, but most notably nails Fire-types and Dragon-types hard.

Victreebel is seen on Sun teams as a main method of countering Toxic Spikes without losing consistency, a major advantage over Rain teams. Just because it is included as a defensive measure first, offensive sweeper second, doesn't mean its sweeping prowess isn't excellent. In fact, Victreebel is one of the main threats a Sun-team has to offer due to its terrifyingly strong mixed offenses. It can very easily incorporate a mixed set and you won't see it coming until it's too late: Sucker Punch / Leaf Blade on "special" sets or Weather Ball on "physical" sets are easy ways to lure out a wall (or sweeper in Sucker Punch's case) and massacre it, paving the way for your other Sun sweepers to do work. As DTC said, it is pretty reliant on Sleep Powder for a setup opportunity (bar Alomomola), but that doesn't lower its threat level one bit.

Whiscash: Access to Dragon Dance is fine and all, and while it has a nice typing and decent enough bulk for the job Whiscash's stats do hold it back. 60 base speed isn't impressive when one can only boost their speed once per turn, nor is 78 base Attack strong enough to dismantle defensive pokemon, so no matter the circumstance, one boost usually isn't enough for Whiscash to do work.. Even at its absolute fastest (Jolly + 252 Speed EVs), Whiscash still misses out on base 115s after 1 Dragon Dance, whereas Adamant variants speedtie with base 100s with +1. That's as far as Whiscash is likely to go against offensive teams who can easily 2HKO it due to the lack of investment in bulk, and a +1 Whiscash isn't too potent of a threat be it speed- or power-wise. It does have great coverage with its STABs and also Bounce to take out Grass-types. There is also the SubDD variant, which I also consider to be superior by virtue of its defensive typing and huge HP, but it faces coverage issues and thus huge problems against Grass-types.

While Whiscash is better at Dragon Dancing than Lapras (and Tropius :p), that isn't saying a whole lot, considering +1 Jolly Whiscash fails to 2HKO standard Misdreavus with Waterfall, which is saying a lot about its mediocre power. On the flipside, even SubDD Whiscash has its Substitutes broken easily by the majority of unresisted attacks not named Seismic Toss or Wartortle's Scald, which limits the number of setup opportunities it gets. That said, Whiscash rarely gets a sweep with 2 Dragon Dances unless it gets lucky: offensive Whiscash can get a sweep going and use its bulk and defensive typing to survive revenge killing attempts...if it hasn't taken a lot of damage and incurred LO recoil along the way, while SubDD Whiscash has an easier time nabbing 2 Dances, but when it encounters a Grass-type it's pretty much boned. +1 Whiscash hardly gets a sweep at all, and if I can get a setup opportunity I'd rather use Carracosta to sweep. At least Anticipation can scout for Grass moves from things like Charizard or Eelektross (physical variants do not carry them), but I feel that bit of insurance isn't worth putting up with these stats.
 
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watashi

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i think victreebel has a lot of potential by itself using a specially based set with the moves leaf storm / sludge bomb / sleep powder / encore|sucker punch and with life orb. the last move slot really makes it different from other grass-types since it can disrupt defensive pokemon or grab kills on frail pokemon such as jynx. sludge bomb and leaf storm both hit really hard and it can also cripple a pokemon with sleep powder.
 

Punchshroom

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Victreebel is pretty strong (and unpredictable! :eek:) no matter what offensive set it chooses, though I question the use of Leaf Storm on that set seeing as Victreebel is pretty vulnerable without Sun anyway and appreciates staying power (especially since it doesn't get many chances to switch in).

Edit: @FLCL Perhaps, though I'm still uncertain why you'd choose to force yourself out when you have a perfectly spammable 120 base power move to use (Sludge Bomb isn't quite strong enough for many reliable OHKOes), especially since switching can kill a Sun team's momentum.
 
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watashi

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victreebel won't stay in for long since it's really frail. that set is meant to do as damage and disrupt the team as much as possible before it's forced out or dies.
 

Celever

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I'm wondering if Victreebel could work as a good revenge-killer... with a scarf and then Leaf Storm | Sludge Bomb | Hidden Power Fire | Some other coverage attack. Often-times he would just be used as a sort of "nuke and gtfo" kinda Pokemon with Leaf Storm but it would be interesting to try out.

I'm trying out a bunch of other mons too rn though so may not get round to trying out Victreebel but if I do I'll get back here.
 
I'll be joining in again, trying out Victreebell on a HO sun team, using a more or less standard set of Growth/Solarbeam/Weather ball/Sludge bomb. Since I haven't tried it yet... Nothing yet to say. Might try it afterwards on a non-sun team, but not yet. Alt's going to be NalesSA.
 
(using victreebel on a semi-sun team under the alt donger master, may try a non-sun variant/other pokes given on another alt later)

I'll admit out of the 4 Pokemon given that Victreebel is the first one that catches my eye and that's because it is simply so dangerous in sun and it can easily go special, mixed or physical. I'm not saying that the other Pokemon are bad, rather they are simply outclassed in most aspects. While Whiscash is dangerous if it gets a couple of dragon dances the main problem is that it really needs those dances before it can actually start sweeping, and there is simply so many other water types in the tier which work better, both defensively and offensively. On the other hand, Vanilluxe is a Pokemon which has good stats but it is held back by its typing which leaves it weak to both rock and fighting, and its poor movepool. Stoutland, however, has a pretty good movepool and useful abilities. While you could argue that it is outclassed by Granbull in most aspects it does have the advantage of being able to at least hit ghosts with its stab due to scrappy, alongside slightly higher defenses and a better speed stat. I'm probably going to try all four out because I could be wrong about what i said and it looks like they have at least one or two things that they could do, will update later once I've tested them a bit more.
 
Victreebel is amazing in sun, however I honestly don't feel it has the moveslot luxury/time to run growth and usually prefer to just use sleep powder and 3 attacks so it can disable a counter before doing some work.
 

Shuckleking87

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One lost came via a double miss air slash with charizard and another loss came from a missed leaf storm that would have killed + a crit power gem that would not have killed otherwise...

But I first made a team with Stoutland before I attempted the challenge with my current team, and it really was not that bad. Yeah sure, it is fairly outclassed as both an offensive and defensive pokemon with no priority, but its decent attack, bulk, intimidate and speed makes it a pretty well rounded poke. Return hits pretty hard coming off its base 100 attack ( though double edge is sorely missed), and superpower and crunch are 2 great coverage moves. Sure, granbull could run the same set plus being a cleric/ but granbull isn't good at all, as it has less bulk and speed than stoutland (for this alone, stoutland should at least be on the viability rankings and should be higher than granbull). It is difficult to justify a use for it over kangaskan, who is bulkier with investment (most are speedy), stronger, has priority and is faster; or tauros who has intimidate ( and a great 2nd ability), great speed and attack, and good enough bulk. However, if you need a poke with intimidate while still being able to damage ghosts (crunch, so scrappy isn't needed), stoutland is your dog (smh struggles to get 4hko on musharna, so I know it is super amazing).

For my team which obtained the ranking, victreebel was an absolute beast. Without looking at FLCL's suggested set beforehand (really, I didnt!), I ran sleep powder/leaf storm/sucker punch/sludge bomb, with life orb, max and positive nature in speed and max special attack, with special defense lowering nature. Leaf storm just hits like a truck, as very few defensive pokes are resistant to the attack and are either 2hko or take a sleep powder if I don't feel confident about the kill. You have vileplume and metang and roselia as your three safest defensive threats against it (but of course, sleep always hurts, except for roselia). If you can get a free switch in with victreebel mid game, something will die with leaf storm. Sleep is obviously so strong this meta, and victreebel has a fairly speedy sleep move to get it off (especially because alot of pokes around this speed tier, like ludicolo or samurott, run max attack or have hp investment and do not have max speed, so victreebel outsped alot more than I expected it would). Sucker punch was probably the 3rd most often move, as so many people can just assume they can revenge kill with a not so healthy but faster poke than victreebel, and victreebel has the top 21st highest attack in nu, which ain't that shabby. Sludge bomb there to predict sawsbuck and get poison hax and stuff, but it isn't that great (maybe hp fire or rock would work). The fact that it is a grounded poison type and can absorb toxic spikes is great. I chose minus special defense because of priority physical moves, and victreebel can take special water moves well enough. But I definitely underestimated the power of Victreebel, and I can see it maybe go to low B (though High C is fine).

Here is the team if anyone cares. http://pastebin.com/3QgijWv8 (Yes I used 2 Swords Dancers with priority, Beheeyem and Defensive Golem. Deal with it!)
 
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pastebin of final team

(got deviation down ages ago but haven't had time to post, would have probably been able to reach 1850 if it wasn't for a haxxy third or fourth match) Would have probably gotten higher but I did try out a fair few things, some of which went badly. Main idea of the team was to set up sun with Mandibuzz and U-Turn out into one of the sun sweepers which have pretty good coverage, with Sawk and Seismitoad as backup. I originally used Golurk, and then Zangoose, over Sawk but the lack of a scarfer really made some matches more difficult.

As for Victreebel, it either was the star of the match, picked off something slow and died, or was just fodder. It needs sun to do anything at all really, and Mandi's slow U-Turn helps with its frailty by getting it in safely. Victreebel's subpar bulk is its main option, as it can only really switch in after a kill, after a slow volt switch/u-turn, or on a few walls. These limited switch-ins and its dependence on sun are really the reason its not seen much, I admit that it is great in the sun (in one match it even used the foe's sun against them and put a huge hole in their team) but unless you want a sun sweeper there isn't much point in using it, and as a sun sweeper it has to contend with the likes of Sawsbuck, Exeggutor, Shiftry, and even Jumpluff. Most of the problems I had as a result of it were due to it not being a dedicated sun team, however after this I did do a few matches on a full sun team and it worked considerably better. Basically, when using Victreebel, you really should be using it on a sun team to get to its full potential, otherwise there are much better options for grass types that don't require sun to be good.
 
Yeah, whiscash is a decent Poke in NU
I used the Sub DD set in a Toxic spikes team that brought me some success on the ladder.
I thinks he needs a bit more attack to work with and maybe also more speed.
I did pretty well on the ladder mostly because of other pokes (Calm mind musharna and sub BU Braviary but wishcash has always been a valuable member of the team
 
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