Research Group #8: Throh, Cradily, Lickylicky and Mawile (anti-Liepard)

[skylight]

Introduction
NU is a tier where many Pokemon are usable, and there are a ton of different options. Research Group aids in helping explore the tier. Who knows, maybe in future tier changes one of these Pokemon can be incredibly useful, potentially being able to check the new threats well. Maybe one of these Pokemon may find uses in other tiers and is not just a simple throw-away Pokemon, unlike some unfortunate Pokemon in NU.

Some rules​

• Be open-minded. Don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize.​
• Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymonning. At the end of the group, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in NU, and what sets are effective on them.​
• Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.​
• Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 4 Pokemon we are "researching". If you want to suggest something, send a forum Private Message to me. Also, Pokemon from past research weeks will be used again simply because the metagame has obviously changed since this project was last brought about.​

The four Pokemon for this group (10/10/13):

Liepard themed group! So basically Throh takes very little, and can phaze it (and enjoys attack boost), Cradily laughs at assist Liepard with suction cups, Lickylicky can phaze Liepard and not be hurt by Swagger due to own Tempo and Mawile can annoy pivot Liepard and Taunt Swagpard.

Soooo with that in mind, what can these mons do outside of being stops to various Liepard sets? How effective are they against king of hax (aka Liepard?) How good are they on the ladder? Discuss!

Questions to consider when posting here!

How useful are these Pokemon in NU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #neverused as well!

The Research Group Challenge
​

• Users will use any number of the research group mons on their team​
• Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Breaking past the 2000 mark on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing the 1850 mark will secure you a Silver Class spot while a 1700 rating will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak in order to achieve this, and a pastebin of your team. Note: this is for Glicko2. You must also have a deviation of 85.​
• Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.​
• If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.​
• In order to participate in the challenge, simply post here with a brand new alt. Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.​
• The Hall of Fame will be on the NU hub soon!​

Please include more substance in your posts than just "in" and what Pokemon you're using. What sets are you planning on using? What interests you about whatever Pokemon you're using? Remember: people who contribute a lot to Research Group will be listed on the hub page as an outstanding contributor for this Research Group (yes, I'm aware I'm c/ping this but I'm actually going to actively update the hub, so!)

Every few days during the group I'll post questions which I expect you guys to be involved in. If you have any questions about this project, feel free to send me a PM, otherwise just compete in the challenge, and actively post here too discussing the sets throughout the group. Remember that the NU mods keep an eye over everything even when they're asleep and you could get one step closer to earning CC if you actively post here and keep up discussion. n_n​

 

[Punchshroom]

My thoughts again.

Throh: Easily the bulkiest Fighting-type in NU, Throh has very little trouble standing up to Liepard. Personally I feel Scraggy has an even better matchup against Liepard, but we've talked about it already. The trouble with Throh is finding a niche that isn't outclassed for the most part. Throh has bulk and Leftovers, but both Gurdurr and Scraggy can boost the power of their Drain Punch to recover more health in that fashion, while Throh has to rely on the awkward RestTalk just to stay alive. If Throh takes damage while asleep and is forced out in the midst of it, it would have to rely on lucky Sleep Talked-Circle Throws if it wants to survive long enough to wake up again. Gurdurr and Scraggy also have methods to outspeed foes with priority or speed-boosting, but Throh has negative priority on its main attack, which also leaves it susceptible to most forms of phazing, such as Lickilicky, Mandibuzz and even Piloswine (I think Bastiodon is the only one who can't phase it). There is also the fact that Throh needs to boost for the most part in order to be effective, meaning it is strapped for moveslots and leaves it totally helpless to Ghosts. Sure, Pursuit support can work, but Gurdurr and Scraggy never needed Ghosts gone just to perform at all. Gurdurr's recovery and priority is better against offensive teams than Throh's slow boosting, while Scraggy's Shed Skin and Dark STAB means it performs much better against stall than Throh does. To say it combines the two isn't saying much; I'd even go so far as to say it combines the worst of both because of its awkward execution. I don't see the appeal in Throh, sorry.

Cradily: Suction Cups and good bulk stop Liepard, yay! No Storm Drain means you want another Water resist on your team, and have to deal with crippling weaknesses to Ice, Fighting and Bug. It does have bulky boosting options like Throh does, but it does have Recover and decent dual STAB as well. However, it doesn't have Heal Bell like Musharna does, so Toxic screws it over. Boosting sets are usually physical attackers, so Will-o-Wisp can screw it too. RestTalk can resolve this issue, but just like Throh this suffers major issues, and mono-STAB is much less potent than actually good Rock-Grass coverage. There isn't much merit to using it as a team supporter either: you have all those weaknesses in exchange for a grand total of 2 resists, Normal and Electric. Hey, know what else can take these 2 types? How about Golem and Golurk, which can offer much better support by resisting other types like Flying or Fighting and not be a sitting duck?

Lickilicky: Own Tempo can guard you against confusion, but since Lickilicky is usually seen on stall teams, they should have other methods ready to combat Liepard, like Alomomola and Rock Blast / Magic Coat Bastiodon. Lickilicky competes heavily with Audino for a teamslot; Audino has Regenerator and Encore (and Magic Coat!), while Lickilicky has Body Slam and Dragon Tail. Lickilicky is not as support-oriented as Audino, but offers a slightly greater offensive edge. Body Slam can threaten opponents with paralysis, while Dragon Tail can rack up hazard damage and phase out boosters. This offensive edge still usually pales in comparison with Audino's support qualities, the latter of which can keep both itself and its teammates alive longer and much more efficiently. Also, you think you can use Cloud Nine on your Wish Licky? Nope, you're stuck with the highly situational Own Tempo, and thus miss out on legitimately dangerous threats like Ludicolo and SunnyZard. Poor Licky, better luck next time!

Mawile: Undoubtedly the most versatile Steel-type in NU, Mawile can do way more than just stop Liepard. Unfortunately, only the support Mawile can really stop Liepard with Taunt, as other sets don't have Taunt or even an attack. Mawile can run a support set, a Baton Passer set, and even a sweeper set. The support set has a slew of options, like Seismic Toss, Super Fang, Knock Off, Foul Play, Pain Split, and some other moves that can catch one off guard. It lacks the raw bulk that Probo and Bastiodon have though, which is especially prominent if the foe isn't Intimidated. The Baton Passer has important resists and decent boosting options, but it loses its niche on any team that isn't dedicated Baton Pass since it would not receive as many boosts in return. The attacker can hit surprisingly hard with Sheer Force, Sucker Punch and a movepool that consists of Iron Head and the 3 elemental punches. Mawile's stats are really the biggest thing holding it back, so always consider your other options.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Don't forget offensive variants of Lickilicky, they are really legit too and don't face as much competition as the special wall does. SubSD Lickilicky can set up on all kinds of walls. Alomomola, Tangela, Misdreavus... You know, the usual "anything that can't break my sub" Pokemon. It sets itself apart from, say, SubSD Ursaring with its amazing special bulk (not even Scarf Rotom-A Volt Switch can break it), its decent and powerful two-move coverage with Power Whip (most other Normal-types require three coverage moves to gain optimal coverage), and of course Cloud Nine, allowing it to check Ludicolo. Choice Band is pretty decent too, and iirc it can 2HKO Regirock and Alomomola with Power Whip, while its Explosion really, really hurts (it's the most powerful unboosted move in the game, just saying). So yeah Lickilicky isn't just restricted to special wall.

Mawile is a really interesting Pokemon, and tbh I don't know what it does best, or if it even is worth using. Those who try Mawile, please enlighten me!

 

[Explorer]

Cradily: Cradily is certainly an underrated Pokemon, because it is generally an outclassed Pokemon. As a special wall, Lickilicky outclasses it with Wish and Heal Bell. As a supporter, Torterra's better typing and stats let it outperform Cradily. Cradily does have Recover, Barrier, and Amnesia, letting it be an effective Mixed Wall if you have a way to get rid of Toxic/Toxic Spikes. Clerics and Grounded Poison types work well. Garbodor is a great partner since it resists the Fighting-type moves Cradily hates and helps combat Grass/Poison-types that give Cradily trouble. In addition, Garbodor's access to Spikes helps with Cradily stalling, and it can lure in Steel-types to put big dents in them with Focus Blast.

My favorite niche of Cradily is Storm Drain since it lets Cradily effectively out-stall LO Rain Ludicolo by spamming Recover. If it switches in on a Water-type move, Cradily can even become a remote offensive threat with pumped-up Giga Drains, but I don't like using Cradily offensively, especially since it has poor coverage options (Giga Drain/Ancientpower/Earth Power/Hidden Power) and (Seed Bomb/Stone Edge/Earthquake). Really, Torterra has all this plus better sweeping stats, so I avoid using Cradily offensively.

 

[zwab]

Being honest here, I love Mawile, I have my own weird set I made for my rain team which involves having enough speed to outspeed standard rocks golurk and seismitoad so that it may taunt them, baton pass to allow mawile to act as a pivot helping me build momentum when either A.) I've taunted someone or B.) I'm walling them (things like persian spring to mind here, even if uncommon). Mawile does also possess the ability to start of weather if you need a second weather starter on your team. Thanks to the taunt, it also does a nice job of wearing down something like musharna or lickilicky by taunting then spamming iron head (though in the case of musharna you're probably better baton passing, as mawile's special defense is less impressive than it's physical, especially with intimidate factored in).
As for the whole liepard nonsense, Mawile's only real option (as stated by Punchshroom) is taunt, alls this does is get mawile paralyzed or confused, then the opponent switches out into something to take the incoming iron head (assuming the confusion doesn't screw you over), personally I prefer running my offensive spinner armaldo with lum berry and rock blast to deal with liepard, out of the pokemon listed in this research week, any own tempo lickilicky with an attacking move to hit liepard will probably do the best job of taking liepard on, since licky can't be confused, and thunderwave doesn't bother a supportive licky running heal bell (and even then the speed drop is not really cared about).