Retesting the Suspects

reachzero approved

With a sense of stability and perhaps a state of boredom in UU, the hot topic of retesting Suspects has been brought up again and discussed on IRC and in the threads. I think a thread dedicated to this discussion would be a clean organized way of deciding what suspects, if any, deserve a retest and why. I know a lot of UU players have thoughts on this subject and I will throw my opening thoughts into the mix.

First, I feel it is important to note: On a personal level, I don't agree with retesting any UU Suspects. However, these reasons are merely that I think it's more than 50% in every suspect's case that they will be deemed broken again, and it somewhat takes away from the sense of finality on many of these Pokemon who were voted away with 2 consecutive votes and supermajorities. However, it is quite obvious that much of the community is clamoring for retesting of these suspects and, after some convincing, I think it is appropiate to at least retest some of the Pokemon, especially with the threat of Venusaur (and eventually Milotic) bans looming... In my opinion, it is better to try and let back in rather than try and eliminate more in the case of UU suspect Pokemon.

So I present the 3 Pokemon who deserve a retest more than the others. People on #Stark agreed, and Aldaron made this original list, although it is exactly what I would have picked myself:

Crobat
This is probably the Suspect everyone wants back. With a lot of new options in UU, as well as the rise of Pokemon not seen often during his peak, Crobat, a perfect Venusaur check and often times, a counter, would bring very mixed reaction, but likely positive reaction, to UU. It defeats many of the Pokemon that are being declared Suspect, or at least nominated, and is soundly checked by some already common Pokemon. However, it's Speed, Sweeping capability, and power to tear through many teams means it will need a constant check. Crobat can certainly run options to defeat its common checks such as Hidden Power Grass or Ground. However, this takes away from Crobat's natural, and in my opinion best moveset: Taunt/BB/U-Turn/Roost.

Criticism:

- Crobat's main criticism is that it can't be stopped as it can continuously give you the momentum, while keeping a healthy supply of HP and keeping it's checks and counters at bay with U-Turn, Taunt, Super Fang and STAB Brave Bird. If you haven't already seen the problem here, it's that Crobat is hammered by a 4MS syndrome, preventing him from running a valuable move. If you use the above set, you won't have Roost. And getting rid of one of these moves will hurt Crobat in some form or the other. With SR weak and solid checks, Crobat can be stopped.

Caution:

- Despite Crobat's short comings in UU, it is still very powerful. A properly played Crobat can shut down FWG cores and constantly keep the momentum on your side. Crobat can also force the opponent to use moves like Ice Beam on Milotic, allowing other Pokemon to set up, as Ice Beam and Surf is one of the best ways for Milotic to match up vs Crobat. Crobat also has enough bulk and a good enough typing that it won't be OHKOed by anything that isn't a direct counter, with the exception of Alakazam.

PorygonZ
Pz is an important Pokemon to test. Despite having many broken qualities and will likely be banned again, it was tested and banned at the time of a very broken Pokemon - Cresselia. These Pokemon were perfect matches to each other - Porygon-z's best methods of being stopped involve using Fighting-types, often scarfed or Priority Hitmonlee/Top, as well as strong physical attacks or just fast quick strikes at Pz. Cresselia absolutely loved these opportunities to set up or Thunder Wave, allowing Pz an easier sweep later. People, these Pokemon had almost perfect synergy with each other, and what is even worse, is that many teams just couldn't handle both which is why both got the boot immediately. PorygonZ, despite being extremely good and yes, likely broken, deserves a retest with the lack of spikes and cresselia backing him up.

Raikou
Almost self explanatory, Raikou was banned during periods of Froslass where Spikes were going to be on the field. If you remember correctly, Moltres was nominated and given suspect status during this period as well and look how that turned out ... Raikou, despite having plenty of Speed and strong Special movebase/stats, still has hard counters and methods of being stopped. A Suspect test that lacks Spikes's simplicity and commoness would certainly be beneficial to seeing if Raikou truly deserved the boot.

---

Why other Pokemon deserve the boot:

Honchkrow: This Pokemon's strength and ability made it very deadly. It has 2 immunities and extremely strong attack stats that let it almost always get in a ko. Honchkrow in the current metagame could pair up with any suspect and truly dominate.

Shaymin: Despite likely going to OU soon, it is important to note that Shaymin would not be retested anyway - it is incredibly powerful and has amazing defenses and a typing that works. Pure Grass's weaknesses just aren't bad enough to keep Shaymin from spamming Seed Flare and dominating.

Froslass: Despite many questions of it being actually broken, Spikes combined with any other Suspect will likely make both broken again.

Gallade: Plays almost exactly like Lucario, but then has the defenses to actually take a hit and keep dominating. Clearly broken to me.

Yanmega: Yanmega was simply the strongest Pokemon ever in UU, and it will surely rip holes through teams again, allowing other suspects or other general Pokemon like Zam to clean up.

Cresselia: Most evident perhaps - This Pokemon can take any hit and completely dominate the opposing Pokemon. The fact that in 2 turns it can easily nab two calm minds and become a great sweeper is amazing, not to mention it provides fantastic synergy with almost any suspect.

Staraptor: Sub/Roost/BB/CC is just an incredible set that can rarely be stopped. Add in CB and ScarfRaptor, all of which can be just as viable, and not many Pokemon can actually take Raptor down. However, it does have some counters such as Rotom and Donphan with Head Smash, so it will be interesting to debate.

Abomasnow: I never actually had much trouble with Hail but a lot of other uses can definitely shed more light on the subject. To be honest, Aboma's stats, usable movepool, and ability to force a majority of the threats in UU is enough for me, along with instant-hail.
 
No Raikou. It was banned just a while ago, why retest it?
Spikes isn't the reason why Raikou was powerful. At least not to me.

Crobat and P-Z are OK: though probably P-Z was just overshadowed by Cresselia, and it will prove itself again as broken IMO.

Agree with the others (even though i have a soft spot for Staraptor because it was long ago, on a very different meta).

My cents.
 
No Raikou. It was banned just a while ago, why retest it?
Spikes isn't the reason why Raikou was powerful. At least not to me.
I think it's important to explain what those reasons are. I think a majority of users felt Raikou's ability to easily sweep through teams with LO or SubCM sets with SR and Spikes on the field was the final selling point, especially since it was extremely easy to get 2 layers up. With Spikes gone, many Pokemon are now much better off at defending vs Raikou. I will defend my arguments, so more comprehensive responses rather than vague ones such as "it was broken for different reasons to me" are better.
 
Is rhyperior dropping down really enough of a reason to retest crobat?

And people already bitch about venu's versatility... what about preparing for standard crobat (uturn, taunt, roost, bb) only for it to nasty plot in your face and sweep your whole team...
 

FlareBlitz

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Raikou, I love you baby, and I will continue using you in OU and Ubers, but please stay the fuck away from UU thanks.
Froslass had a bit to do with why Raikou was banned, but Froslass' departure by no means implies that Raikou is any less broken that it was before. It's just too fast, hits too hard, and walks all over bulky offense with ease. The only things that "counter" it on offensive teams either can't switch in or completely shut down any momentum you built up ("hi i'm registeel please stick me on an offensive team to counter raikou so i can invite one of 230409 dangerous pokemon to come in and shit on you"). I don't want to see the metagame centralizing itself around dugtrio/raikou/[raikou counter] again, if you think UU is stale now (it's not) it'll be a lot worse when you see a giant metal dildo or a fat pink blob on every team because of Raikou.

Still opposed to Crobat for the reasons I mentioned in the megathread, but if it's between Crobat and Raikou I'll gladly take Crobat. PG-Z is fine to retest. Like the OP said, I'm pretty sure it's broken, but it deserves a fairer test because it was banned in Cress meta.

I also happen to think that Honchkrow deserves a re-test. Yes Brave Bird hurts a lot, but a major argument against Honchkrow was "omg it 2hkos Milotic now". Milotic is not a physical wall guys; it has 95/79 defenses, I know it's a great glue, but people need to stop throwing it at hard-hitters it doesn't have any business tangling with; if you use it as a crutch for everything you deserve to get shit on by Honchkrow. There's plenty in the tier that can take Brave Bird -> Followup Move and kill Honchkrow back (Steelix, Regirock, Rhyperior) and also quite a few who can take a Brave Bird and outspeed and kill/cripple it (Rotom, Arcanine, Tauros). Yeah you need to watch out for sucker punch, but that's the game we play, and if we took perfect prediction into account for Honchkrow we might as well ban Absol.
And all this is discounting the incredibly suicidal nature of Honchkrow. Brave Bird recoil + LO + SR + general frailness means that Honchkrow is guaranteed to die to any follow up attack from anything that can live through its assaults, and sometimes even just from killing it! It can Roost, yeah, but if you're Roosting you're not attacking, and Honchkrow isn't like Salamence to where it can switch in and threaten to outspeed things or cushion hits with Intimidate.

tl;dr Don't retest Raikou, preferably don't retest Crobat, retest PG-Z, and preferably retest Honchkrow.
 
I really want to see Crobat in UU again. I wasn't here for its first bout, but from what I heard from older players was that its ban was unjust. I don't think it would be that big of a problem. Steelix pretty much fucks up the standard set unless it has Super Fang and if it has superfang, rotom can take care of it. also people are forgetting that Luxray is a fairly reliable counter. With Intimidate and a resistance to a STAB Brave Bird Crobat becomes all but useless against luxray. nasty plot crobat also isnt unstoppable. i think a big problem in uu is people dont like to adopt to using NU mons because they are somehow inferior, and if they have to "resort" to that some pokemon is automatically broken. i guess i should save this part for the megathread so i am going to stop.


also yanmega would be fun but just for specs bug buzzing everything into oblivion one more time lol.
 
Is rhyperior dropping down really enough of a reason to retest crobat?

And people already bitch about venu's versatility... what about preparing for standard crobat (uturn, taunt, roost, bb) only for it to nasty plot in your face and sweep your whole team...
Even though I agree crobat is extremely powerful, this argument needs to be expanded and consider all changes. Rotom, Omastar, and Aggron (who got Head Smash) are all much more common and useful, while Rhyperior dropped, as well as Donphan who also got Head Smash to use. This is 5 more pokemon, not to mention that Rose/Shaymin are banned, meaning the need for crobat has died down, as well as Blaziken being used less and less.

As far as NP Crobat, it's a great mon, but has a ton of hard counters like Rotom, twave Chansey, Milotic, Slowking, etc. Not a gamebreaking mon by any means. Look at this comparison to Salamence - Mence has 2 completely viable sets that had a lack of hard counters on either end and had the stats on both sides to back it up. Crobat will always need Nasty Plot to even be a threat on the special side, and has a sufficient amount of counters.

Raikou, I love you baby, and I will continue using you in OU and Ubers, but please stay the fuck away from UU thanks.
Froslass had a bit to do with why Raikou was banned, but Froslass' departure by no means implies that Raikou is any less broken that it was before. It's just too fast, hits too hard, and walks all over bulky offense with ease. The only things that "counter" it on offensive teams either can't switch in or completely shut down any momentum you built up ("hi i'm registeel please stick me on an offensive team to counter raikou so i can invite one of 230409 dangerous pokemon to come in and shit on you"). I don't want to see the metagame centralizing itself around dugtrio/raikou/[raikou counter] again, if you think UU is stale now (it's not) it'll be a lot worse when you see a giant metal dildo or a fat pink blob on every team because of Raikou.
How fast is too fast? Many of your arguments could apply to Alakazam, who although is getting quite the talk about in the uu thread, isn't considered suspect by many people at all. Compare everything you said about Raikou to sweepers like Alakazam or Sub NP Mismagius- is there any difference? they all are extremely fast, all hit extremely hard, and all tear through bulky offense unless you have a slow mon like Spiritomb or Registeel to ease the pressure. Is this a viable argument that any of these pokemon should be banned?

Readapting strategies is nothing new, it's what we have to do in the game of pokemon. Banning something because it would force you to adjust isn't what we do. For the record, a pokemon like Registeel works fine on offensive teams, especially bulky ones, being able to counter Raikou and just carry Explosion for the next threat.

It is also important to note that most teams aren't offensively minded, instead preferring a balanced approach.

I also happen to think that Honchkrow deserves a re-test. Yes Brave Bird hurts a lot, but a major argument against Honchkrow was "omg it 2hkos Milotic now". Milotic is not a physical wall guys; it has 95/79 defenses, I know it's a great glue, but people need to stop throwing it at hard-hitters it doesn't have any business tangling with; if you use it as a crutch for everything you deserve to get shit on by Honchkrow. There's plenty in the tier that can take Brave Bird -> Followup Move and kill Honchkrow back (Steelix, Regirock, Rhyperior) and also quite a few who can take a Brave Bird and outspeed and kill/cripple it (Rotom, Arcanine, Tauros). Yeah you need to watch out for sucker punch, but that's the game we play, and if we took perfect prediction into account for Honchkrow we might as well ban Absol.
And all this is discounting the incredibly suicidal nature of Honchkrow. Brave Bird recoil + LO + SR + general frailness means that Honchkrow is guaranteed to die to any follow up attack from anything that can live through its assaults, and sometimes even just from killing it! It can Roost, yeah, but if you're Roosting you're not attacking, and Honchkrow isn't like Salamence to where it can switch in and threaten to outspeed things or cushion hits with Intimidate.
Many good points here, my main issue though, is that honchkrow's suicidal nature isn't as bad as you seem. It can easily spam Brave Bird later, instead using the wonderful options of Superpower or Roost now, or even revenging and likely koing with Sucker Punch. Honch's diverse movepool makes it completely unstoppable if used correctly, unlike other pokemon who can at least be stopped by hard counters by using one sets. Krow really has no such counter for just 1 set.

I want to say I agree though, that Milotic should be used more carefully when Honchkrow is involved, but is this a good thing? Krow makes it difficult for ANYTHING to switch in, which is certainly something to be cautious of.

Here's my opinion.
Crobat = UU
Porygon-Z = undeicided
Raikou = BL
Honchcrow = could go either way
Shaymin = BL
Froslass = UU
Gallade = BL
Yanmegga = BL
Cresselia = BL
Staraptor = BL
Abomasnow = BL
Please give reasoning to each Pokemon, even just a sentence or two. It does nothing to help us when you just give your opinions. We need reasoning and explanation when something as important as a tiering change is concerned.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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Well reachzero may approve but I don't!!!

but not really

I'll revoice my concerns from #stark in here. While retesting subjects may be prudent for the metagame (and will liven things up in a metagame that's supposed to change quite often) the fact that we don't have a suspect ladder to do this on makes it that much more difficult. We can't exactly test on the main ladder because then people will have nowhere to test teams for tour and whatnot. Kind of a biggy there.
 

kokoloko

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Well reachzero may approve but I don't!!!

but not really

I'll revoice my concerns from #stark in here. While retesting subjects may be prudent for the metagame (and will liven things up in a metagame that's supposed to change quite often) the fact that we don't have a suspect ladder to do this on makes it that much more difficult. We can't exactly test on the main ladder because then people will have nowhere to test teams for tour and whatnot. Kind of a biggy there.
Why can't a UU Suspect Ladder be created? Am I missing something?
 
Well reachzero may approve but I don't!!!

but not really

I'll revoice my concerns from #stark in here. While retesting subjects may be prudent for the metagame (and will liven things up in a metagame that's supposed to change quite often) the fact that we don't have a suspect ladder to do this on makes it that much more difficult. We can't exactly test on the main ladder because then people will have nowhere to test teams for tour and whatnot. Kind of a biggy there.
heh Jabba

Anyway, The Smogon Tour is one of the main points I brought up on IRC this morning while discussing it. Handling testing is going to be extremely hard without another ladder and by the time Smogon Tour finishes, it will be so late and we will wonder if we should even bother. If suspects are to be retested, I would encourage users to propose feasible ideas (suspect uu ladder isn't one...) on how to test these Pokemon.

Why can't a UU Suspect Ladder be created? Am I missing something?
Unless I'm wrong and setting up a ladder is easy, I think this would be adding too much work to Doug's already hectic schedule. Also, splitting the playerbase in half or completely isn't the best idea, although a final proposal would likely involve doing so.

edit: setting up a ladder isn't easy, lets try not to put any extra work on doug if we can avoid it
 
I support a Crobat retest because I believe that the metagame has changed considerably, and not in its favor. Not just because Rhyperior and Donphan dropped, also because all the teams that packed Blaziken/Roserade/Shaymin back than are non-existent now. Also, Crobat is decent defensively but cant switch into as many hard hitters as one would think. For example it can resist 4x something like Hitmonlee's Close Combat, but a simple Stone Edge would eliminate it from the match. Crobat deserves a retest.

I'm strictly against a re-test of Porygon-Z. People say that Cresselia overshadowed it but all it did was cover up Porygon-Z's brokenness with her own. We're talking about a Pokemon that can 6-0 stall and most balance teams just like Gallade. Offensive teams get absolutely raped by an Adaptability boosted Tri-Attack and it's extremely difficult to switch into because of the good coverage it has. Also, unlike other sweepers Porygon-Z isn't that frail, and can take the priority hit and continue sweeping. So no tnx.
 
Why can't a UU Suspect Ladder be created? Am I missing something?
It's not possible, DJD could give the whys but in short it's is not conceivably possible until SB2. Anyways, the next ladder in cue to be added if possible I believe would be Little Cup so yeah...

Anyways...

Crobat = UU - I just missed this metagame before I hit UU, so part of it is probably out of curiosity. The other half is that it has so many options. I've made a team so many times where I'm like, hey, Crobat would fix this up so well, but it's not there to help :(
Porygon-Z = suspect UU - Might as well. I really didn't think the big Z was THAT broken even in Cressy meta so yeah... but I think I probably crazy anti-teamed against it and I didn't have much success using it either.
Raikou = BL - Definitely. We just got rid of this guy. Flare's arguments stand because Raikou has some things Alakazam can only dream of: passable defenses and a non-weak to pursuit, along with STAB on a type with better coverage where it needs it.
Honchcrow = BL - because it was way too good. Stop listing Rhyperior as a counter. I don't think people remember how oft it was that Honchkrow used HP Grass?
Shaymin = BL - goes without saying I believe - Venu is already quite the force.
Froslass = BL - Easy Spikes were proven broken once and this son of a biiiilly goat took forever to get rid of. Please no.
Gallade = BL - BABY COME BACK but yeah he's broken.
Yanmega = BL - Most powerful offensive presence in any UU I've ever played in. Never again.
Cresselia = BL - Defensive prowess unmatched ever. Stay away.
Staraptor = BL - Again wasn't here during this meta but the whole coverage thing is crazy and I would not advocate letting it drop again.
Abomasnow = BL - hail is already stupid enough. Lets keep it down please, plus aboma can actually do something.
 

Ice-eyes

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The big difference between Raikou and Alakazam is bulk. Raikou had the bulk to take priority, to take Earthquakes from Registeel, to take a Fire Blast from Moltres after a CM, etc. This made it much easier to switch in, and it also made it much easier for it to get past its counters.

Plus, of course, it could do all the cool and dangerous things Alakazam can do, except with a better STAB.
 

shrang

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Raikou, I love you baby, and I will continue using you in OU and Ubers, but please stay the fuck away from UU thanks.
Froslass had a bit to do with why Raikou was banned, but Froslass' departure by no means implies that Raikou is any less broken that it was before. It's just too fast, hits too hard, and walks all over bulky offense with ease. The only things that "counter" it on offensive teams either can't switch in or completely shut down any momentum you built up ("hi i'm registeel please stick me on an offensive team to counter raikou so i can invite one of 230409 dangerous pokemon to come in and shit on you"). I don't want to see the metagame centralizing itself around dugtrio/raikou/[raikou counter] again, if you think UU is stale now (it's not) it'll be a lot worse when you see a giant metal dildo or a fat pink blob on every team because of Raikou.
I don't oppose the Raikou ban in any way, but I really don't like how people justify it. "Oh look Raikou makes building Offensive teams hard". What kind of an argument is that?? I've said this time and time again. If a Pokemon happens to "over-centralise", or "restrict team options in a certain playstyle", this is a symptom and not a cause of a Pokemon being broken. If you want to say Raikou is rightfully BL, I would just say "Well Raikou swept teams way too easily" (Which I would agree with), which is actually a cause of a Pokemon being broken. /rant

Anyway, if we retest Suspects, would we retest them one at a time, or would we test multiple ones?? If we are testing more than one at a time, if we retest Crobat, I think it might be okay if we get Gallade retested as well. I do not mind a retesting P-Z either, since I reckon the whole mentality of that round was "OMG UU IS FUCKED UP, LET'S GET SHIT OUTTA HERE", and while Cresselia was the main culprit, P-Z may have got a bit too much blame than it really deserved. If it ends up hella broken, feel free to quick-boot, though.
 

FlareBlitz

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@ the difference between alakazam and raikou

Well, the most important one is typing. Raikou is not pursuit or u-turn weak, and nothing is immune to Raikou's STAB that is particularly strong on the special side and/or also neutral to its coverage options. Zam has several such Pokemon (Skanktank, Drapion, Tikitomb) and they almost always checkmate it with ease. Zam's typing also lends it several weaknesses, while Raikou's typing lends it one weakness which is not easily exploitable for the same reason exploiting its STAB immunity is not. And finally, in addition to all these advantages, Raikou's special attack is only around 11% lower than Alakazam's, which is somewhat made up for by Thunderbolt's 5% power increase over Psychic and definitely made up for by its substantially better STAB coverage. All of these factors essentially make Raikou an Alakazam turned up to 20, which is why it was initially banned.
Related to this is bulk. Raikou is substantially bulkier on both sides, allowing it to survive very strong STAB priority or Extremespeed, in addition to some other surprisingly powerful hits...like being able to tank max ATK Jolly Venusaur's LO Earthquake and Scarf Primeape's Close Combat and things. This makes Raikou much harder to take out of the game and much much harder to revenge.

Edit for Shrang:

If offensive teams constitute a "significant portion of the metagame", then yes, a Pokemon that gives offensive teams trouble near-exclusively is still ban worthy. We banned Gallade, after all, even though it primarily messed with Stall and had little impact on Offense. Wrecking a playstyle is not the same as reducing the viability of commonly used Pokemon.

@ honchkrow

I don't know that Honchkrow has a "diverse" movepool. From what I remember this was the most common set:

-Brave Bird
-Superpower
-Sucker Punch
-Roost/Night Slash/HP Grass

Granted, this gives it a ton of excellent coverage...but remember, Honchkrow has a middling base 71 speed. At the time in which it was common, its most common switch-in opportunity was Venusaur, who rarely ran max speed. Attempting to do something like that now will result in it eating an LO Sludge Bomb (which it cannot survive) from the much faster Venusaur variants.

At the second part of your post, note that spamming moves besides Brave Bird isn't a great idea. Superpower's defense drop means that if something besides Regirock/Steelix/Whatever comes in, your Sucker Punch might not KO them due to the attack drop, letting them finish you off. In addition, two successive superpowers don't KO more defensive variants of those Pokemon anyway. Steelix can tank two superpowers with almost no investment in anything but HP and a neutral nature (252/40 Sassy guarantees survival), Rhyperior doesn't even need max HP or a boosting nature to tank two hits (which is why some Krow started running HP Grass for it), etc.

Importantly, however, is that when we talk about Honchkrow we need to differentiate it from Absol (who is currently mid-low UU).
It has two advantages:

-Insomnia
-Brave Bird

While Insomnia doesn't even matter anymore (all common sleepers bar Tangrowth now outrun The Boss, and Tangrowth can depressingly survive a Brave Bird if at near-full health...), Brave Bird is obviously major...but many arguments for why Honchkrow is broken don't even take it into account! You talk about how Honchkrow can spam superpower or revenge with Sucker Punch but Absol can do the same thing, and much easier too, due to lacking an SR weak and having higher ATK and speed.

When I look at why Honchkrow was banned (the second time, that is, when it was banned the first time I believe it didn't have brave bird and I have no idea what people were thinking...), I think it was because teams just could not prepare for every single suspect that was dropped down with it. If you tried to use things like Steelix and Perior Gallade would shit on you, using things like bulky Moltres would mean that Raikou shits on you, etc. etc. I think Honchkrow deserves a re-test primarily so people can adapt to its presence without worrying about those, similar to why I and apparently you believe PG-Z deserve a re-test. And it could very well turn out to be broken, just like PG-Z, but I've given plenty of theorymon reasons why it may not be, so...

Okay. Now for a general comment. When re-testing suspects we should think about three things: "Why was this banned?", "What will it accomplish if it comes back?" and "Will the metagame be better for it?"

So far I've suggested Honchkrow and PG-Z to be tested and explored the first question in depth, and some other nominations have done so as well, but nobody (including myself) has dealt with the two arguably more important questions that follow it. Maybe it would help if we had a streamlined process where any nomination for a suspect re-test has to adequately explore all three of those criteria?
 

LonelyNess

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You don't just retest stuff over and over and over and over and over. It got banned, it stays banned.

We don't retest Shaymin-S or Deoxys-S or Latias or Garchomp.... why would we start here.
 

FlareBlitz

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We don't, but there's no reason we shouldn't. Apparently people think a balanced metagame is boring (masochists, the lot of you) so if there's a community-supported effort to unban some pokemon that were previously banned, well, I don't see how that's different from a community-supported effort to ban pokemon that were previously unbanned (latias).

Also using this post as an opportunity to discuss possible testing solutions.
The only I like best is "fuck tour let's just drop them into the ladder" and then we can treat Tour exactly the same way as we would if an OU Pokemon had dropped down or if a UU Pokemon had been voted BL. Honestly that's the simplest, fastestm least costly method I can think of, although it has the obvious drawback of screwing with pre-planned teams.
 

LonelyNess

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Ok but the difference between unbanning a Pokemon that wasn't tested (Latias) and unbanning a Pokemon that was tested and found to be BL (what we're proposing here) is pretty obvious...

We already went through the fucking trouble once...

Why bother testing anything and coming to any conclusions if all that we get done is just going to get unwound if 10 people in a thread whine hard enough?
 
You don't just retest stuff over and over and over and over and over. It got banned, it stays banned.

We don't retest Shaymin-S or Deoxys-S or Latias or Garchomp.... why would we start here.
Agree completely with this post.



I actually wouldn't be that surprised if Honchkrow was voted UU if it were given another chance(and I wouldn't have voted BL myself if I had bothered to vote the period it got banned in), but that's "not how it works." That's why votes have meaning, because when you get rid of a Pokemon they are gone for good. It is why I thought it was silly we voted on Raikou so many times and why Honch getting a third shot at being UU feels ridiculous just to type. I don't agree with the result of every vote that we've ever done here, but there's no point in voting at all if we're just going to renig the results later.

I'd oppose anything dropping down that has been voted BL unless something major were to happen outside of our control(HGSSetc.), which obviously isn't going to happen at this stage of the generation. Even as as someone who thinks this is one of the worst versions of UU we've had since the beginning of this project.


If people don't like the metagame we've ended up with, hopefully it's motivation to think a little harder about their votes in Gen 5. Lay in the bed you've made.
 
I'm pretty sure I remember Jabba saying that retests would only be possible IF you were able to prove that the Pokemon banned during that test had a significantly different circumstance at the time of banning than it has now. I agree that retesting stuff just for the sake of retesting/shaking up things a bit is not how to go about things, but if someone can make an argument that an earlier test does not apply due to significant, and only significant, not "now Venu runs more speed so Honchkrow wouldn't be as powerful" (which you can fight for as long as you can back it up with other evidence, and plenty of it, also) changes in metagame trends.

There's my take.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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Yeah throw on top what synre and ln said and there's no way this is happening. It's neither logical nor feasible. I think the uu/ou comparison is a bit of a stretch though because in uu there are permanent (rhyperior) changes that really change the shape of the metagame that ou never really undergoes. If enough of these changes occur and then stick it is very reasonable to think a pokemon that was once overwhelmingly bl could have shifted to uu. However, given the testing limitations we are faced with, that is irrelevant and there is no way we can do this. Even if a UU suspect ladder were created imagine how dead it would be considering even the normal suspect ladder was often completely barren at times.

Reopened because some people still want to talk i guess.

Just keep in mind this is not happening. But if it'd ever become feasible I guess we could reach a consensus on the merits of retesting in UU.
 
I could definitely see Crobat being retested, and maaaaaaaybe Honchcrow as well. The metagame has definitley changed since then (and not just "new rock types yayyyy"). Yeah, it beats out Venusaur and resists Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb, and might be pretty strong and fast, but it is beatable. It won't like taking ice beams/stone edges, loses 25% every switch in, and definitely is hit hard by fourmoveslot syndrome.

It can't run Brave Bird/Roost/U-Turn/Taunt/Nasty Plot/Sludge Bomb/HP Grass/HP Ground/Super Fang: If it wants to run Super Fang, it may have to sacrifice Roost. If it wants to run Nasty Plot, it probably won't have U-Turn or Taunt. Without Roost it can't restore health which means rocks will ALWAYS knock off 25%, without Taunt it can't stop status moves and set ups, without Brave Bird it doesn't have a realiable damage output, etc.

And Crobat can't really tank hits THAT well, especially if it skips out on Roost. I think it'd be worth it to retest Crobat in a metagame where Yanmega/Roserade/Shaymin arne;t around to be smashed with Brave Bird, and with new counters and the loss of some good partners.
 
I do see the logic behind retesting some of the suspects since the metagame has shifted, but with Gen 5 coming around the corner and the "testing limitations" that Jabba mentioned, I'm not sure we have the time nor the resources to be able to tackle something like this.
 

Legacy Raider

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If people don't like the metagame we've ended up with, hopefully it's motivation to think a little harder about their votes in Gen 5. Lay in the bed you've made.
Or, alternatively, with a community consensus, we can try change the game we play for fun for what we feel is better and will be more fun. Why do you play Pokemon? I play it for enjoyment, and I think most other people do as well. We don't play UU to show the successfulness of the UU tiering process. There is absolutely no reason to be quite so narrow-minded, to be stubborn and say "our process has led us to this shitty metagame, so even though i'm being a hypocrite to the reason this game is played, i will simply play this metagame to uphold the strength of the process".

From what I've seen, the vast majority of people are in favour of retesting at least one of these Pokemon. There should never be a blanket ban on retests as long as people can provide valid reasons for them. Adhering to the philosophy of "our process has led us here, now there is now way we can take a single step back" is ridiculous.

There are objective reasons for retesting several of the subjects, many of which have already been pointed out in this thread. I don't necessarily believe all or any of these Pokemon will get voted UU, but there are enough reasons there for many of them to deserve retesting.

Abomasnow has NEVER been tested in a Froslass free metagame.
Raikou has NEVER been tested in a Froslass free metagame.
Porygon-z was ONLY tested alongside Cresselia, and as people have pointed out already, checks for one were manhandled by the other.

And, what I feel is the most pressing point, the metagame has changed so dramatically from the last one that Crobat was in that it deserves a retest even more than any of the other suspects. Reasons have been outlined already:-

- it's revenge killing capabilities are dampened quite significantly by the fact that Roserade and Shaymin are no longer around, and that things like Blaziken are far less common. Also, if you are willing to give CB Aggron a free Head Smash, or CB Rhyperior a free Stone Edge, every time you try to revenge something with Crobat, then god help your team. Offensive teams already run checks for the more threatening Swellow, so it's not like these two rock behemoths or Rotom or something aren't found on offense as it is.

- donphan is a a very viable check for Crobat, seeing as Head Smash OHKOes a non-Roosting Crobat, and Earthquake OHKOes a Roosting one. Stealth Rock is far easier to get up as well since all three of these Pokemon, Rhyperior, Donphan, and Aggron, can use it while at the same time threatening an OHKO on any Crobat that tries to Taunt them. We aren't limited to the Regis and Steelix any more.

Really I shouldn't need to post any more, because these objective reasons should be more than enough to show why Crobat fulfills the 'metagame changes' aspect of a valid retest. There is a large school of thought that believes Crobat would be beneficial for the current metagame as well, but, as I'm sure people will be all too quick to point out, that cannot be used as a retest reason.
 
I agree with Legacy Raider.

There is no shame in admitting a mistake. If Raikou didn't deserve to be BL but some haters voted Raikou BL anyway, and if those same haters now think they were wrong, why force them to stick to their decision? The idea that "you made your own bed now lie in it" honestly sounds like "I think you were all retards to vote [this Pokemon] BL, but now that you have, I want to see you suffer". That's malicious, if nothing else. Besides, since we play this game for fun, it makes sense to seek the most enjoyment and not stick to rigid rules.

For the same reason that I think there should be no minimum voter requirements as long as a potential voter can give good reasons for his / her vote, I think there should be no objection to retesting a currently BL Pokemon if enough people can give good reasons why the Pokemon should be retested. If someone can present a convincing argument for something, that something should be taken seriously.

With the in-principle objections out of the way I suggest this method as a way to "test" potential suspects: host a tournament. It need not be very large, but ideally many good UU players participate. For the tournament you allow certain Pokemon. If things go well enough, then it might even be possible to test different metagames in different rounds of the tournament. An all-play-all tournament would be even better since it'd mean more raw data, but it'd probably take too long to finish.

Just my opinion.
 

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