Return'd

Suspect 1.0

Mega Pinsir has risen to prominence due to boosted Feint wiping through offensive teams, and even some defensive teams with the right support (hazards, trapping, etc). Though it does struggle to break through similar walls as in standard (Skarmory), the nature of Return'd is rather different than that of the standard metagame.

For this suspect you'll need to achieve 2400 COIL, and you have five days to accomplish this, until Monday, October 10th. We will be using a B value of 10 for the COIL, so here's how many battles you'll need to achieve the requirements:

Code:
GXE N
85 20
80 25
75 32
70 45
65 87
If you want to figure out how many matches you'll need to reach 2400 COIL, you can slap this equation into a calculator or Google:

N=10.0/log2(40*GXE/2400)

Once you achieve the requirements, make a post on my profile with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, either ban Mega Pinsir or do not ban Mega Pinsir. A 60% majority is required for Mega Pinsir to be banned.

Note: Mega Pinsir is banned during the suspect test!
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Ok, so I'm not generally the kind of person to care about anything, but the sheer multitude of people whining about pinsir in the om room chat has gotten me fed up.
So please, enjoy this big-ass list of things that have any purpose in return'd and how they interact with pinsir, please note that I won't be including obvious things like Bisharp and other things that either get OHKO'd by coverage or in general.

AZUMARILL: Banded set has a pretty solid chance of ohko-ing the bug with return-boosted move and almost always lives an unboosted hit, cannot switch into one, though

CHARIZARD-X: Similar circumstances as Azumarill, but is guaranteed to OHKO with Flame Charge or any other Fire move

DIANCIE-MEGA: Debatable switchin, ultimately comes down to 50/50's between using either Protect or any Rock attack of your choice if switched in after a Swords Dance, otherwise Diancie wins 1v1, though it still fears Earthquake.

GARCHOMP: Though Garchomp does have the bulk to potentially stand up to two Returns, it isn't sustainable and is still forced to run a Rock move to do any real damage to Pinsir.

GLISCOR: Needs to be maximum physical bulk to avoid the 2HKO, and in addition, needs to have already been poisoned prior to switching in, in order to not get 2HKO'd, not to mention, needs either a Rock type move or to have disposed of its Toxic Orb in order to OHKO

HEATRAN?: Little purpose in Return'd other than just being a normal Heatran that also gets marginally improved attacks. Scarfed variant forces Pinsir out, which, if coupled with SR, is usually all you need.

HIPPOWDON: Potential switchin to Pinsir, requires a Rock type move to counter, unfortunately, and even then, is basically wasted after taking a +2 Return.

KLEFKI: Not an adequate matchup for Klefki, but is at least able to set up screens to support an alternative check/counter, as well as hinder opponents with Thunder Wave, though it usually has little effect on Pinsir, due to Feint being +2 priority.

KYUREM-BLACK: Bulky offense that cannot switch in, but will OHKO an unboosted Pinsir.

LANDORUS-THERIAN: Bulky offense that is capable of switching in and taking a hit, as well as OHKO-ing back, but, similar to other threats, is still generally left in an unsustainable position afterwards.

MAGNEZONE/TON: Generally scarfed threat that serves little purpose other than being able to withstand Flying damage due to its typing and gain momentum by using Volt Switch, though can be checked in return with the opposing Pinsir carrying Protect for move scouting and switching, since it has a free move slot from not needing to run Return/Frustration, and having both Earthquake and Close Combat is generally unnecessary.

MANECTRIC-MEGA/RAIKOU/THUNDURUS//THERIAN: Serves little purpose other than revenging and attempting to regain momentum, since they lack the bulk to safely switch in, and are still left with an undesirable amount of HP afterwards, anyways.

METAGROSS/MEGA: Like most alternatives, it can threaten Pinsir with Bullet Punch, but is unlikely to OHKO, and is left with little HP after knocking out Pinsir

ROTOM: Has very little purpose other than being a designated check to Pinsir, but is ultimately threatened by the possibility of Mold Breaker Earthquake pre-mega, and ultimately has difficulty sustaining itself.

SCIZOR/MEGA: Is almost always 2HKO'd, and isn't capable of doing very much back beyond Bullet Punch.

SKARMORY: Easily switches in and sets up with Curse, which is enough to nullify Pinsir's Sword Dance, faces difficulties if lacking Leftovers, however. Utility Skarmory is generally dead weight.

SLOWBRO/MEGA: While Either Slowbro has the capacity to set up themselves with Iron Defense, neither are capable of switching in, and still cannot stop Pinsir once it is set up to +2.

TYRANITAR: Destroyed by Close Combat, only manages to threaten Pinsir with a Choice scarf, which can be scouted out with Protect, and otherwise becomes a 50/50 between using Pursuit or any Rock attack of your choice.

ZAPDOS: Almost always forces Pinsir to switch out, but can be threatened by a potential +2 Stone edge, which, while rare, is doable, since Pinsir has a spare move slot to do anything with.

AERODACTYL-MEGA: Despite having type advantage, it is still 2HKO'd and can only be used as a revenger, otherwise you need to sacrifice a lot of either Speed or Attack investment to survive an attack on switchin.

AGGRON-MEGA: Doesn't really have a significant purpose in Return'd other than acting as a soft check to Pinsir, which, in that regard, it still does poorly, since it is required to run either Avalanche or a Rock type attack to safely OHKO Pinsir, otherwise, it is left with little remaining HP.

CRAWDAUNT: Requires a lot of bulk to make it guaranteed to survive a Return, but will OHKO an unboosted Pinsir if Banded

DOUBLADE: Unsustainable check with very little purpose other than attempting to threaten Pinsir, which it cannot do without a Rock type attack.

MAMOSWINE: Requires either bulk evs or a sash to safely survive a Return and OHKO back.

MANDIBUZZ: Can safely switch into Pinsir and 2/OHKO with Foul Play, but like most defensive checks, is left very weak afterwards.

RHYPERIOR/REGIROCK/CARRACOSTA: Unlike most other defensive checks, these can switch in on an attack and be fine, though they are still difficult to sustain, and ultimately will be left in a relatively crippled state if Pinsir uses Swords Dance and then Close Combat.

AURORUS?: Requires a Choice Scarf to outspeed Pinsir, as well as a small portion of defense evs to safely withstand a +2 Adamant Return, but otherwise safely outspeeds and OHKO's otherwise, though will still be left in a hindered state if Pinsir uses Feint over Close Combat/Earthquake.

QUAGSIRE?: Cannot switch into an attack, but can switch into a predicted Swords Dance, or after a Pokemon has been knocked out. Proceeds to set up with Curse and attempt to sweep, as long as there are no special attackers around.

AVALUGG: Safely switches in on anything Pinsir does and OHKO's with Avalanche, but is generally still left in a crippled state afterwards.

DITTO: Can force a Pinsir to switch out, which, if SR is present, will hurt badly, while Ditto does not suffer as much from it.

SOLROCK: Is similar to the three prior Rock types, but also has the utility of burning and healing on its side.


So, from the looks of it, Pinsir ultimately seems to force the opponent into situations where they have to sacrifice a Pokemon just to get rid of it.
While there are several things that can switch in, take it out, and still manage to be alive, more often than not, they usually end up in so crippled of a state that they're pretty much knocked out anyways.
That being said, most of these situations are completely normal circumstances anyways where you could easily swap out Feint for Return and no difference would be made, on top of that, a handful of these situations even have the check gaining an advantage over Pinsir, due to the nature of Return'd.

I won't be including my personal opinions in this post other than this statement:
Mega Pinsir in Return'd is about as banworthy as Extremespeed spammers in Mix and Mega
 
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I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said already, but MPinsir is way too pressuring on team building. I literally am forced to run a mon that does little else for me but counter pinsir such as skarmory (Rock Tomb/Whirlwind/Roost/Defog with shed shell) or say scarf zone or tar. As previously mentioned, banning feint should do, as then Talon, weavile, espeed mons can counter a quick attack Pinsir. People saying that electric types counter MPinsir is the same as saying that Mold Breaker Pursuit breaks Sturdy Shedninja in BH. Basically, it's a mon you HAVE to prep for, and there is no reason not to run it.
 
We shouldn't ban Feint as a whole. M-Pinsir is really the only controversial user of Feint, and the second strongest user of said move is Zangoose, which is obviously nowhere near as good as M-Pinsir. This is similar to when Greninja was being suspected in early ORAS. Some people were calling for a ban on Protean so Greninja could still potentially be used in OU, but Protean on Kecleon isn't broken whatsoever. Same concept applies to Feint.
 
IMO the meta will adapt to mega-pinsir. Mons such as doublade, skarmory, magnezone, and rotom are all viable switchins to mega pinsir and check a variety of other threats in the meta in addition to providing support for the team in a variety of other ways. M-pinsir is EXTREMELY strong and fast but it's not centralizing to the point that playstyles other than birdspam HO are unviable. Once people consistently prepare for it as they do for Keldeo in OU things should be pretty interesting in return'd battles.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I think it should be noted that Pinsir is most improved against offense, not bulkier builds. The same stally things as ever basically beat it, except it's marginally improved against Prankster, and has a bit mroe freedom with its moveslots. Zapdos / Skarm still do what they always did.

What's changed is that Pinsir has powerful priority to destroy offensive archetypes with. I asked the om room what offensive mons could beat Pinsir and the answers were:

Mega Metagross: Can revenge most of the time (If Pinsir is at +2 and full health not so much)

Doublade: So long as Mega Pinsir isn't at +2 or is down to at least 40% health, preferably lower
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pinsir: 139-165 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
EDIT: I haven't personally used Doublade yet so I have to ask, what evs is it runing? max attack or max hp / def?

"Does Skarmory fit on offense? Not really right?"

Zapdos: Can switch in, but needs a good amount of bulk to survive after Stealth Rock.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Zapdos: 243-286 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Note that I'm presuming you switch in as it uses Swords Dance. It comes out to about the same if it just uses Return twice. What if it's Adamant?
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 228 Def Zapdos: 243-287 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
At this point it's not even defensive Zapdos tbh.

Ditto: Can revenge ezpz

The main thing to note about all of these is that they mostly can't switch in, they can revenge. So while finding counters isn't impossible, offensive checks are much much harder. hmu if I missed shit.

Rotom / Thunduruses / Manectric-mega / Raikou / Magnezone - I nearly forgot these doo-dads. Also can't switch in.

IMO the meta will adapt to mega-pinsir. Mons such as doublade, skarmory, magnezone, and rotom are all viable switchins to mega pinsir and check a variety of other threats in the meta in addition to providing support for the team in a variety of other ways. M-pinsir is EXTREMELY strong and fast but it's not centralizing to the point that playstyles other than birdspam HO are unviable. Once people consistently prepare for it as they do for Keldeo in OU things should be pretty interesting in return'd battles.
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 484-572 (172.2 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes magnezone the switch-in
 
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If anything, mons like Magnezone and Heatran would be considered situational switchins and not guaranteed ones as they do resist Flying but not Ground/Fighting coverage, but given how mindlessly most people just click Feint when bringing in Pinsir on the ladder currently, they're safer switchins than normal, at least until more Pinsir players start getting used to these SSIs. That's why I personally feel Scarf variants of these two (or at least Magneton over Magnezone if you want that bit of extra speed) are pretty much the best sets to use right now as they're the only sets to force Pinsir out after coming in on a predicted Flying move or just outright destroy Pinsir if it decides to stay in.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Ok, so I'm not generally the kind of person to care about anything, but the sheer multitude of people whining about pinsir in the om room chat has gotten me fed up.
So please, enjoy this big-ass list of things that have any purpose in return'd and how they interact with pinsir, please note that I won't be including obvious things like Bisharp and other things that either get OHKO'd by coverage or in general.

AZUMARILL: Banded set has a pretty solid chance of ohko-ing the bug with return-boosted move and almost always lives an unboosted hit, cannot switch into one, though
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 327-385 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

CHARIZARD-X: Similar circumstances as Azumarill, but is guaranteed to OHKO with Flame Charge or any other Fire move
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 247-292 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock both of these mons cant have prior damage to retain a "Checking" status.

DIANCIE-MEGA: Debatable switchin, ultimately comes down to 50/50's between using either Protect or any Rock attack of your choice if switched in after a Swords Dance, otherwise Diancie wins 1v1, though it still fears Earthquake.
not a switchin...it gets 2hkoed by feint if already megaed, meaning even as a check, its a pretty shaky one, since after SD it safely OHKO's diancie.
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 250-294 (103.7 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


GARCHOMP: Though Garchomp does have the bulk to potentially stand up to two Returns, it isn't sustainable and is still forced to run a Rock move to do any real damage to Pinsir.

GLISCOR: Needs to be maximum physical bulk to avoid the 2HKO, and in addition, needs to have already been poisoned prior to switching in, in order to not get 2HKO'd, not to mention, needs either a Rock type move or to have disposed of its Toxic Orb in order to OHKO
ill give you these, they kind of work if it doesn't manage to setup.

HEATRAN?: Little purpose in Return'd other than just being a normal Heatran that also gets marginally improved attacks. Scarfed variant forces Pinsir out, which, if coupled with SR, is usually all you need.
fun fact:
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 258-304 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock of course, SDing isnt really easy, but considering this is a wallbreaker, its a pretty serious issue to be able to OHKO resists.


HIPPOWDON: Potential switchin to Pinsir, requires a Rock type move to counter, unfortunately, and even then, is basically wasted after taking a +2 Return.

KLEFKI: Not an adequate matchup for Klefki, but is at least able to set up screens to support an alternative check/counter, as well as hinder opponents with Thunder Wave, though it usually has little effect on Pinsir, due to Feint being +2 priority.
ill give these too.

KYUREM-BLACK: Bulky offense that cannot switch in, but will OHKO an unboosted Pinsir.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 271-321 (69.3 - 82%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. see: azumaril
LANDORUS-THERIAN:
Bulky offense that is capable of switching in and taking a hit, as well as OHKO-ing back, but, similar to other threats, is still generally left in an unsustainable position afterwards.


MAGNEZONE/TON: Generally scarfed threat that serves little purpose other than being able to withstand Flying damage due to its typing and gain momentum by using Volt Switch, though can be checked in return with the opposing Pinsir carrying Protect for move scouting and switching, since it has a free move slot from not needing to run Return/Frustration, and having both Earthquake and Close Combat is generally unnecessary.
ill give these too.

MANECTRIC-MEGA/RAIKOU/THUNDURUS//THERIAN: Serves little purpose other than revenging and attempting to regain momentum, since they lack the bulk to safely switch in, and are still left with an undesirable amount of HP afterwards, anyways.
all but mane fall to +2, but yeah, they check.

METAGROSS/MEGA: Like most alternatives, it can threaten Pinsir with Bullet Punch, but is unlikely to OHKO, and is left with little HP after knocking out Pinsir
first mon you mentioned that isnt ohkoed by +2 feint...that kind of tells you something doesn't it.

ROTOM: Has very little purpose other than being a designated check to Pinsir, but is ultimately threatened by the possibility of Mold Breaker Earthquake pre-mega, and ultimately has difficulty sustaining itself.
it also gets taken down to like...10% of health if at +2

SCIZOR/MEGA: Is almost always 2HKO'd, and isn't capable of doing very much back beyond Bullet Punch.
you basically argued this point for me lol.

SKARMORY: Easily switches in and sets up with Curse, which is enough to nullify Pinsir's Sword Dance, faces difficulties if lacking Leftovers, however. Utility Skarmory is generally dead weight.
"sets up with curse" ...do skarms actually do this? and yeah...it counters.

SLOWBRO/MEGA: While Either Slowbro has the capacity to set up themselves with Iron Defense, neither are capable of switching in, and still cannot stop Pinsir once it is set up to +2.
argued my point for me.

TYRANITAR: Destroyed by Close Combat, only manages to threaten Pinsir with a Choice scarf, which can be scouted out with Protect, and otherwise becomes a 50/50 between using Pursuit or any Rock attack of your choice.
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 249-294 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock not to mention it too, gets beaten up bad by feint and cannot have any prior damage before facing +2.

ZAPDOS: Almost always forces Pinsir to switch out, but can be threatened by a potential +2 Stone edge, which, while rare, is doable, since Pinsir has a spare move slot to do anything with.

AERODACTYL-MEGA: Despite having type advantage, it is still 2HKO'd and can only be used as a revenger, otherwise you need to sacrifice a lot of either Speed or Attack investment to survive an attack on switchin.

AGGRON-MEGA: Doesn't really have a significant purpose in Return'd other than acting as a soft check to Pinsir, which, in that regard, it still does poorly, since it is required to run either Avalanche or a Rock type attack to safely OHKO Pinsir, otherwise, it is left with little remaining HP.

CRAWDAUNT: Requires a lot of bulk to make it guaranteed to survive a Return, but will OHKO an unboosted Pinsir if Banded
who runs max hp craw. its WAY too frail and slow to wallbreak with hp

DOUBLADE: Unsustainable check with very little purpose other than attempting to threaten Pinsir, which it cannot do without a Rock type attack.
aka, pinsir sets up and sweeps.

MAMOSWINE: Requires either bulk evs or a sash to safely survive a Return and OHKO back.

MANDIBUZZ: Can safely switch into Pinsir and 2/OHKO with Foul Play, but like most defensive checks, is left very weak afterwards.

RHYPERIOR/REGIROCK/CARRACOSTA: Unlike most other defensive checks, these can switch in on an attack and be fine, though they are still difficult to sustain, and ultimately will be left in a relatively crippled state if Pinsir uses Swords Dance and then Close Combat.

AURORUS?: Requires a Choice Scarf to outspeed Pinsir, as well as a small portion of defense evs to safely withstand a +2 Adamant Return, but otherwise safely outspeeds and OHKO's otherwise, though will still be left in a hindered state if Pinsir uses Feint over Close Combat/Earthquake.

QUAGSIRE?: Cannot switch into an attack, but can switch into a predicted Swords Dance, or after a Pokemon has been knocked out. Proceeds to set up with Curse and attempt to sweep, as long as there are no special attackers around.

AVALUGG: Safely switches in on anything Pinsir does and OHKO's with Avalanche, but is generally still left in a crippled state afterwards.

DITTO: Can force a Pinsir to switch out, which, if SR is present, will hurt badly, while Ditto does not suffer as much from it.

SOLROCK: Is similar to the three prior Rock types, but also has the utility of burning and healing on its side.


So, from the looks of it, Pinsir ultimately seems to force the opponent into situations where they have to sacrifice a Pokemon just to get rid of it.
While there are several things that can switch in, take it out, and still manage to be alive, more often than not, they usually end up in so crippled of a state that they're pretty much knocked out anyways.
That being said, most of these situations are completely normal circumstances anyways where you could easily swap out Feint for Return and no difference would be made, on top of that, a handful of these situations even have the check gaining an advantage over Pinsir, due to the nature of Return'd.

I won't be including my personal opinions in this post other than this statement:
Mega Pinsir in Return'd is about as banworthy as Extremespeed spammers in Mix and Mega
i bolded a lot of points, but eventually gave up, since you basically started answering your own points. out of all of these, only 7 could withstand +2 pinsir. and 5 of these NEED to be at full hp to retain their checking status. which is CRAZY to assume. lets not forget, lucario was BANNED in mix and mega for having the ability to setup SD's alongside it. and this pinsir is stronger then that lucario, and the meta luke was in was a LOT bulkier then this one.
 
The suspect test has been posted at the top of this page!
  • You need 2400 COIL
  • Test ends in 5 days, around the same time as this post
  • You are not required to make a fresh alt (if you already have reqs I urge you to try the suspect ladder before voting)
  • Once you achieve reqs, post on my profile with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote (ban Mega Pinsir OR do not ban Mega Pinsir)
  • Mega Pinsir is banned during the test period
In addition, one user can obtain the right to vote by winning the scheduled tournament in the Other Metas room on Saturday!

Good luck!
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Pinsir isn't broken because every team has three checks to it. It is not broken, but overcentralzing. Now people have to run shit like skarmory offense. I mean, stone edge pinsir kills zapdos as +2, and eq dents doublade (plus pinsir has decen physical bulk). Every team is forced to run 3 checks to it, like scarf zone+scarf tar+doublade. Overcentralizing for sure. I probably wont get reqs but please vote ban.
 

AquaticPanic

Intentional Femboy Penguin
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor
Community Leader
Since now Mega-Pinsir is not usable, here are my thoughts on the other megas you might want to replace M-Pinsir for:

Use Ctrl F and type the name of the mon you want to find it faster

Mega Abomasnow:
Mega Abomasnow's biggest failure is it's Speed. But it has a really usable attack at 132 base, and now can use Ice Shard way better. Or you can be the new CritDra, with Frost Breath. Point is, it's not completally useless.

Mega Absol:
It has Pursuit, Feint has +2 Priority so you could use it as a check to the other Priority Spammers in the meta (But beware Zangooze). Punishment might be used for something although boosting is rare on this meta. Aerial Ace can now do even greater damage as a Fighting coverage (But you still have Play Rough).

Mega Aerodactyl:
Tough Claws and Aerial Ace match way nicer now. Or maybe Smack Down as a way to Equake Skarmory and Zapdos. But that's kind of it (And it gets destroyed by AquaRill).

Mega Aggron:
Doesn't really have any major boosts. Maybe you can use Dragon Tail with hazard or something. This thing still will have the same problems either way.

Mega Alakazam:
Charge Beam sounds a nice way to almost always boost your Sp. Atk and still have a good Electric-Type move for Flying and Water types. This mega doesn't want to be nowhere near priority moves, tho, so it's brobaly already teleported miles away from Return'd.

Mega Altaria:
Mega Altaria has now Bulldoze for coverage. Incinerate is always there for Special Coverage and Rock Smash has a nice 50% chance of lowering foe's Def. Also False Swipe Pixilate hype.

Mega Ampharos:
Well, it's problem is speed, so perhaps you can make use of Electroweb. Charge Beam, once again, is a boosting move and a really good STAB to have.

Mega Audino:
Audino really loves this whole thing. Now it has a good recovery move in Draining Kiss. Couple that with Calm Mind and you can actually do some stalling. Or maybe you want to use Incinerate as a covery for Steel-Types. Ability is still a let-down.

Mega Bannette:
102 BP Shadow Sneak with STAB comming off of a 165 base Attack stat. Need I say more?

Mega Beedrill:Fell Stinger is now a 204 BP move (Due to Ability) comming off of 150 base attack and raises attack by two if you knock out the oponent. If Priority wasn't major in this meta, Mega Beedrill would rule.

Mega Blastoise:
Water Pulse Mega Launcher with STAB and 135 Sp. Atk is pretty self explanatory.

Mega Camerupt:
There isn't much new to Camerupt. At the least it's Ancient Powers are more powerful now.

Mega Charizard X:
Heh. Now you don't need to use Flare Blitz and risk fainting. Flame Charge also is boosted by the ability and raises your Speed. Or maybe you can use Quick Attack for priority. Metal Claw is a good move to use against Rock and Fairy types.

Mega Charizard Y:Air Cutter for crits I guess? And at the least it's higher Special Flying STAB isn't bp 75 anymore. Don't forget the mighty Mega Evo with Acrobatics.

Mega Diancie:
Now you actually have a Special Rock move (With a hax slight chance of boosting everything).

Mega Gallade:Shadow Sneak, Knock Off and Power-Up Punch are all welcome. Low Sweep works as well.

Mega Garchomp:
Doesn't have anything worth highlighting. Maybe Metal Claw or Dragon Tail, but regular Chomp is probably better.

Mega Gardevoir:
Draining Kiss seems like a viable option (Tho you'll be wasting the ability). Charge Beam is there again, and now it can hit Steel types with... Mud Slap... Lowering acc is always frustrating, so thing thing can cause some potential switches.

Mega Glalie:Much like Mega Abomasnow, Mega Glalie has two good STABs in Ice Shard and Frost Breath. To make use of it's ability, maybe Weather Ball or Secret Power can be used.

Mega Gyrados:
Ice Fang is now usable. That's all you need to know. (Maybe Payback can work but Mega Gyrados likes Dragon Dance).

Mega Heracross:
Actually, Skill Link pokemon hate this meta. Most multi hitting moves are 25 bp, and it says that "the BP of multy hitting is 102/times it hit", so it's a debuff in most cases. Arm Thrust is the only actual boosted one that can be used with Skill Link. Rock Tomb can be used as coverage.

Mega Houndoom:
Sorta like Mega Absol but this one is special so Pursuit won't deal as much.

Mega Latias:
Ok, Stored Power Calm Mind set on this thing is great. 102 BP + 40 every time you use CM gets to an amazingly high BP in no time. And the Sp. Def Boosts will guarantee you to be alive for a few turns to set up, and Recover will keep you healthy.

Mega Latios:
Brings nothing much new. Charge Beam at it's finest.

Mega Lopunny:Power-Up Punch, Fake Out and Quick Attack are all viable options all for obvious reasons.

Mega Manectric:
Fastest Mud-Slap Mega. Boosted Fast Volt Switch is much apreciated and now, once again, Charge Beam.

Mega Medicham:
Bullet Punch, Fake Out and Feint are all good priority moves. 102 BP Drain Punch is great too. Oh, and you can now use a STAB 102 BP move that boosts your attack on a Pure Power mon with 100 Attack Base.

Mega Metagross:Bullet Punch the world. There may be other stuff you could use but Bullet Punch is probably the best option.

Mega Pidgeot:
Has an actual Normal STAB on Special side now with Round/Swift. Can Mud-Slap-Acc Drop you and then Hurricane-Confuse you, and Mud-Slap is not bad coverage for Mega Pidgeot.

Mega Sableye:
I recomend a CM Snarl set. Snarl will lower your opponent's Sp Attack by one stage so it's really bad for Special mons (Beware Bisharp tho).

Mega Sceptile:
The only things I can see being boosted are Giga Drain and Dragon Pulse honestly.

Mega Scizor:
Boost U-Turn, not Bullet Punch. Scizor suffers with this meta because of it's ability already being in synergy with it's moves.

Mega Sharpedo:
Poison Fang seems like the best option as a Grass and Fairy cover and boosted by the ability, as well as chance to Badly Poison the oponent.

Mega Slowbro:
Either Stored Power CM Sets (If people even use that on Mega Slowbro) or Scald. Both have good boosts.

Mega Steelix:
Perhaps Ice Fang for ground coverage? Like Mega Aggron, this meta won't benefit much Defensive mons.

Mega Swampert:
Well, unfortunatly no Smack Down for this guy, but Ice Punch has now a good BP, and it's yet another beast that gets Power-Up Punch with hight attack stat.

Mega Tyranitar:Pursuit is the best it gets, probably. Nothing else caught my eye.

Mega Venusaur:
Giga Drain boost is really good for Mega Venu. Venoshock is good too, and this thing has Mud-Slap for accuracy drop.



...and that's it. All of them are here (Hopefuly).
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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When I first heard of this meta I thought it was a cool idea. It was kinda like a "super technician" giving underused moves with unique and cool side effects a chance e.g. fell stinger, whirlpool,brine etc. And, while I can't presume to know what the intent behind making this meta was, looking at the op here:
Viable Moves
- STAB and coverage: Acrobatics, Ancient Power, Clear Smog, Facade, Freeze-Dry, Hidden Power, Knock Off, Psyshock, Pursuit, Smack Down, Stored Power, U-turn, Volt Switch
- Priority: Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Fake Out, Feint, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, Quick Attack, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Vacuum Wave
- Secondary effects: Astonish, Chatter, Lava Plume, Lick, Nuzzle, Poison Fang, Scald, Smog, Twister
- Stat boosting: Charge Beam, Fell Stinger, Fiery Dance, Flame Charge, Power-Up Punch
- Stat dropping: Acid Spray, Bulldoze, Electroweb, Glaciate, Icy Wind, Low Sweep, Mud Shot, Mud-Slap, Razor Shell, Rock Smash, Rock Tomb
- Critical: Air Cutter, Drill Run, Frost Breath, Karate Chop, Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Razor Leaf, Shadow Claw, Slash, Storm Throw
- Draining: Absorb, Drain Punch, Draining Kiss, Giga Drain, Leech Life, Mega Drain, Parabolic Charge
- Trapping: Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Sand Tomb, Whirlpool, Wrap
I'm at least getting the same kind of vibe of what this metagame in spirit was supposed to be.

Having played played around 30 games now, around half and half on the suspect ladder and normal ladder, (super experienced amirite), I am now gonna do an experiment; I'm gonna pick the moves from that list (just that list, which is not even close to being conclusive on the total moves that can be used in this meta) that I have seen so far in those 30 games:
Viable Moves
- STAB and coverage: Acrobatics, Ancient Power, Clear Smog (2/30), Facade, Freeze-Dry, Hidden Power, Knock Off, Psyshock, Pursuit, Smack Down, Stored Power, U-turn, Volt Switch
- Priority: Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Fake Out, Feint, Ice Shard, Mach Punch, Quick Attack, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Vacuum Wave
- Secondary effects: Astonish, Chatter, Lava Plume, Lick, Nuzzle, Poison Fang, Scald, Smog, Twister
- Stat boosting: Charge Beam, Fell Stinger, Fiery Dance, Flame Charge, Power-Up Punch
- Stat dropping: Acid Spray, Bulldoze, Electroweb, Glaciate, Icy Wind, Low Sweep, Mud Shot, Mud-Slap (1/30) , Razor Shell, Rock Smash, Rock Tomb
- Critical: Air Cutter, Drill Run, Frost Breath, Karate Chop, Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Razor Leaf, Shadow Claw, Slash, Storm Throw
- Draining: Absorb, Drain Punch, Draining Kiss, Giga Drain, Leech Life, Mega Drain, Parabolic Charge
- Trapping: Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin, Infestation, Sand Tomb, Whirlpool, Wrap
As probably expected, the overwhelming majority of moves I've seen are priority and volt switch/charge beam on the odd Zapdos/rotomwash, which are mostly used to stop the said priority mons. This meta has turned into a "do you have a priority move or not" question rather than "do you have a cool underpowered move that can now use the buff". This has happened whether or not Pinsir was banned. I am still running into the same checks e.g. ttar, rotomW, Zapdos etc. for talonflame which has taken Pinsir's place, and they still get overwhelmed. And the type of gameplay is also still the same; matchup based priority HO. Now, I am not one to hate on that (#banstall4lyfe) and I do find some amount of fun in that, but I think that if you want to turn the metagame more into "do you have a cool move that you normally can't take advantage of", which is way more interesting in concept than another meta where priority dominates, then I propose maybe thinking about having another measure:

Make Priority moves unaffected by Return'd
.​

There is quite clearly precedent for this, since multihit and other moves are disallowed, and I'm sure TI would be able to whip this up in a second. I think this would be a better step overall especially when you consider the team I have been using. I am running 6 mons all with different priority moves of various types, all as strong as I can make them, so that they can counter each other's counters. Where I had PinsirMega before, now I simply have Metagross Mega. Now you can level several arguments against me, for example my sample size is too small, or I am simply not a good player meaning I am only in low ladder and have not seen what the high ladder can produce, but I think it's telling that a team I made as a joke to show Adrian how strong priority is, has gone 28-2 and my two losses have only been because I overpredicted leading to a loss in a mon, further underscoring how matchup based and unforgiving in terms of priority this meta is. The checks for Pinsir Mega still exist and are still being beaten handily by "lesser" powered mons which are just as problematic such as Talonflame, Azumarill/Crawdaunt and more. Since there is only a nominal difference in the state of the meta implying a deeper problem therein, I'm gonna go with removing priority moves and keeping Pinsir.
 
E4 Flint

I'll start of by listing moves that I've seen that you have crossed out since I've played a lot more games than you.

Acrobatics, Ancient Power, Knock Off, Pursuit
Sucker Punch
Scald
Power Up Punch
Bulldoze
Draining Kiss

There is quite clearly precedent for this, since multihit and other moves are disallowed
Only multihit moves are not affected, there are no other moves. The reason I did that is to keep the concept a bit simpler. Each hit being 102 BP makes no sense because Return isn't a multihit move, and the alternative - dividing 102 by the number of maximum hits - I didn't want to add an additional rule/mechanic to this OM.

Yes, the metagames with and without priority would probably be quite different. I am consciously choosing to keep priority in this metagame. As I've said earlier in this thread, taking priority out makes this OM less different than certain other OMs and less appealing as well in my opinion. Without the current extreme, broken metagame, I highly doubt we would be talking about Return'd as much as we currently have been. Not just here but on PS! too. Furthermore, I don't want to add custom rules for certain types of moves. Multihit is the only exception because of the reasons I mentioned above.

If Mega Pinsir is banned and another equally strong Pokemon, priority or not, takes it place then we'll suspect that too. I do think your sample size is too small and that a lot more moves are used than what you've come across, but at the same time some of your points are valid. I'm making the decision to take my OM down the priority path rather than the no priority path.
 
To be fair, I do have a Whirlpool mon on my team, and it is working out nicely...

But E4 Flint brings up a good point. Priority is incredibly dominant. 4 out of my 6 mon team has priority, and I've been winning nearly every game on the ladder. I've seen a ton of Mega Lopunny, so I figure a combination of that, Talonflame, Mega Metagross, and Zangoose will fill the void to replace Mega Pinsir.

I have seen a few more of those moves that E4 Flint listed, including Draining Kiss, Bulldoze, Whirlpool (this was from a neat Toxic stall Vaporeon), Absorb, Nuzzle, Power-Up Punch, Leech Life, and Parabolic Charge. Drain Punch was also used by Mega Lopunny, but that obviously does not count, as either Fake out or Power-Up Punch were in the Return slot.

I would be down for a priority suspect that also frees Mega Pinsir. (I'll share the team after I've got my reqs.)
 
If anything Mega Pinsir is over-centralising because it's insanely broken. Like sure, it's not overwhelming every team when every team carries Zapdos, Ditto, Doublade on their squad with everything else having coverage for it. Nobody has noticed the complete and utter lack of anything even slightly similar to a glass cannon? It's essentially -Atespeed on steroids it just doesn't seem as broken because it's centralised the pokemon around Rock, Steel and Electric types.

I'm sure Mega Rayquaza wouldn't be as broken if every team carried 3 counters.
 

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E4 Flint

I'll start of by listing moves that I've seen that you have crossed out since I've played a lot more games than you.

Acrobatics, Ancient Power, Knock Off, Pursuit
Sucker Punch
Scald
Power Up Punch
Bulldoze
Draining Kiss



Only multihit moves are not affected, there are no other moves. The reason I did that is to keep the concept a bit simpler. Each hit being 102 BP makes no sense because Return isn't a multihit move, and the alternative - dividing 102 by the number of maximum hits - I didn't want to add an additional rule/mechanic to this OM.

Yes, the metagames with and without priority would probably be quite different. I am consciously choosing to keep priority in this metagame. As I've said earlier in this thread, taking priority out makes this OM less different than certain other OMs and less appealing as well in my opinion. Without the current extreme, broken metagame, I highly doubt we would be talking about Return'd as much as we currently have been. Not just here but on PS! too. Furthermore, I don't want to add custom rules for certain types of moves. Multihit is the only exception because of the reasons I mentioned above.

If Mega Pinsir is banned and another equally strong Pokemon, priority or not, takes it place then we'll suspect that too. I do think your sample size is too small and that a lot more moves are used than what you've come across, but at the same time some of your points are valid. I'm making the decision to take my OM down the priority path rather than the no priority path.
I disagree that this meta will be "less different than certain other OMs" without priority, although I may have different ones on mind than you. Sketchmons, STABmons, Mix and Mega, etc. all have huge amounts of priority spam in them. A lot of the more popular OMs tend to fall into that mold. More appealing well... I can't speak for everyone of course but I think I'd like less priority here. It makes a ton of cool mons unviable, just because they operate at the +0 priority tier rather than +1.

Priority is also broken as all hell, making everything with it many times better, to the point where it's practically impossible to not be either a priority user or priority check in this meta and still have a niche.

I have never seen powered up Scald or Sucker Punch and tbh they seem kind of a waste. That's about a 1.25x boost in power (not exactly) which is nice, but not nearly as nice as boosting say hidden power by about 1.66x. I have seen Acrobatics ofc, but... on Talonflame where it's, oh dear, priority.

I feel that if we continue to suspect mons that are broken with priority we're going to end up with a banlist ten miles long, when the problem lies elsewhere. Why not go right to the source of the problem and ban everything except unown priority from being boosted?
 
Because this is the direction I wish to go with my OM. I'm fine with a banlist ten miles long, but I doubt it would end up that long. There isn't even a consensus on Mega Pinsir, arguably the biggest threat. So, I don't see how we're going to have a ten mile long banlist.

This isn't a topic for discussion. I've decided which way I'm going regarding priority and I'm not changing that. Discuss the current suspect test please.
 
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 484-572 (172.2 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes magnezone the switch-in
The way to use magnezone is as a pivot on an offense/bulky offense team. With scarf magnezone and a plethora of either levitating or flying mons that exert offensive pressure, a switchin to magnezone is pretty safe to make on a predicted feint. For example, say you have a 40% health talonflame after killing a mon on the opponent's side, then they switch in m-pinsir. Clearly, earthquake or even close combat is a horrible play for the m-pinsir player to make because talon is probably going to get sacked. So the m-pinsir player is on the back foot here, because choosing feint allows for the safe switchin to magnezone but clicking earthquake allows talonflame to knock out their m-pinsir.

It's very similar to in OU where specs volcanion knocks out a mon and the opponent switches in their rotom-wash following the KO. There is that same 50/50 of 'will the rotom volt switch predicting me to stay in with volcanion or will he hydro pump or will-o-wisp expecting my ground type to come in'? Although that is an even more favorable situation for rotom in comparison to m-pinsir due to rotom being less weak to entry hazards and often carrying leftovers as well as not taking up a mega slot.


To get back to the main issue, mega-pinsir is not an OVERWHELMINGLY dominating force as everyone else makes it out to be. Have I lost games to m-pinsir? Yes. Most of those are due to my own silly misplays that sacked my checks/counters to birdspam too early in the match. I knew they had a m-pinsir but I didn't save what I needed to save to put myself in a favorable position late game. I also feel that m-pinsir is no more centralizing than mons like talonflame or azumarill. I'd argue m-pinsir is actually harder to fit on a team than either of them because of pinsir's complete lack of defensive presence (talon can switch into will-o-wisp) and it's one-dimensionality. +2 priority is extremely effective in a meta where +1 priority is king, but m-pinsir ends up having to run a +speed nature anyway to tie with other m-pinsirs that are quite commonplace as well as being able to outspeed and OHKO threats such as kyu-b. This removes one of the main benefits of priority, being that one can forego investing in speed so they can have an optimal balance of bulk/power/speed by investing in bulk and power.

To be fair, I have never used a mega pinsir on any one of my teams because I like using steel megas with bullet punch in this meta (scizor, metagross). Talonflame pretty much fills the same niche as pinsir and helps my primarily physical teams deal with burns a bit better.
 
Mega Evolutions in Return’d

Like in standard play, Megas are usually the cornerstone of the team. As such, picking the proper one is just as important as in OU. Of course, it's not like there is a lack of choices.

Blessed with a blistering +2 priority further boosted by aerilate and stab, it's no wonder this is a common pick for a mega. While it does struggle greatly in the current metagame, it's still an excellent late game cleaner and revenge killer.

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Feint
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Earthquake
The goal of this set is to hit as hard as possible when revenge killing while looking for opportunities to boost and seizing them with both hands. While Moxie or Hyper Cutter might seem more useful, a one time intimidate immunity or a rare attack boost aren't worth giving up the ability to smack some of Pinsir’s few answers, such as Rotom-W, Rotom-H, and Bronzong with Earthquake. Earthquake also hits Pokémon such as Mega Metagross, Doublade, and Raikou For solid damage, letting it hit them on the switch. Close Combat rounds out Pinsir’s Coverage, hitting most of what Earthquake misses such as Skarmory, Rotom, and Air Balloon Steel-types while dealing heavier damage to the likes of Regirock and Mega Aggron.
Other coverage options include Stone Edge for Zapdos and Rotom-H, Knock Off for Doublade, and Protect to block Fake Out, but they are generally much worse than the listed moves.

When playing with Mega Pinsir's, attempt to weaken all flying resists before sweeping in earnest, as they can live a Feint and proceed to KO Pinsir's. For these purposes, Magneton and Magnezone are ideal, as they can trap and KO Steel-types while dealing heavy damage to Rock-types and stealing momentum with Volt Switch. Tyranitar is another great option that traps and removes Doublade with Pursuit. Mega Pinsir likes to switch a lot, so hazard removers such as Excadrill, Zapdos, and Skarmory are all appreciated. Finally, most answers to Mega Pinsir lack recovery, so Pokémon with similar checks and counters such as Choice Band Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Metagross all pair well. Finally, dual screens can actually allow Pinsir to set up, so Klefki is a decent teammate for that reason.

When playing against Mega Pinsir, stopping it from setting up is key. For this reason, carrying multiple checks, or at least Pokémon that can OHKO, is generally a good idea. Max HP Choice Band Azumarill, for example, lives a Feint even after Stealth Rock and proceeds to OHKO with Aqua Jet. Magneton and Magnezone, on the other hand, outspeed with a Choice Scarf and live boosted Feints, although they can't come in on Close Combat or Earthquake. For this reason, running Pokémon such as Doublade and Skarmory can come in on any attack and force Mega Pinsir out are usually a good idea to include.

As what is possibly the most dangerous Mega in Return’d, Mega Metagross is a solid pick for most teams. Thanks to its typing, stats, and ability, it can take on nearly every common offensive Pokémon not named Doublade and force them out while tearing massive holes in the opposing team.

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Bullet Punch
-Zen Headbut / Rock Slide
-Earthquake
-Thunder Punch / Ice Punch
Unlike Mega Pinsir, who mostly seeks to wear down its checks and counters, this set seeks to sweep them outright. Bullet Punch is the move of choice, boasting an insane 204 BP after STAB and Tough Claws. Zen Headbut is a secondary STAB move that hits Rotom the hardest while also being difficult to switch into. Rock Slide is solely for Talonflame and Mega Pinsir's, but it allows Mega Metagross to take them on without risking rolls. Earthquake deals heavy damage to other Steel-types, particularly Doublade. The choice between Thunderpunch and Ice Punch is mostly a decision of whether you want to beat Skarmory or if you want to beat Landorus-T.
Mega Metagross has other options such as Hammer Arm for Scizor and Skarmory, Hone Claws for boosting, and Grass Knot for Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Quagsire.

As the main walls to this set are Steel-types, Magneton and Magnezone are great helpers. Tyranitar and Weavile with Pursuit can also trap Doublade, which uses its status as a Ghost-Type to avoid Magnet Pull. Pokemon such as Choice Band Scizor also pair well due to their similar checks and counters and the difficulty of determining the identity of the Mega.

When playing against Mega Metagross, Steel types are your friends. They resist both of Metagross’s STAB options, including bullet punch. Ground-resistant ones such as Bronzong, Skarmory, and Scizor are the best at this job due to the commonality of Earthquake, but others will do in a pinch, especially Doublade. Other Levitating Steel-type resists, particularly Rotom-H and Rotom-W, also check switch into Metagross. Landorus-T is a decent offensive threat, but switching in premega allows Metagross to avoid Intimidate and it is OHKOed by Ice Punch.

Like the previous two Megas, Mega Lopunny relies on its powerful priority to fulfill its role. Unlike them, however, it’s most spammable move is not its Return’d attack- rather, it uses the same STABs it always has, but gains a potent tool for revenge killing.

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Fake Out / Quick Attack
-Quick Attack / Fake Out
-High Jump Kick
-Return / Ice Punch

With a 102 BP Fake Out, getting chip damage is as easy as switching in. Notably, it outprioritizes Feint, so Mega Lopunny can RK the likes of boosted Mega Pinsir and Zangoose. Quick Attack is another option if you need spammable priority, but is generally inferior to the added autoflinch power. Whichever move you didn’t pick above goes in the second slot, and High Jump Kick is needed to round out Mega Lopunny’s coverage. The Choice between Return and Ice punch is that of slot 1: If you picked Quick Attack or need to lure Landorus-T, pick Ice Punch; otherwise use Return.
Mega Lopunny can potentially Return Power Up Punch, but the lack of +3 priority is easily noticable. Encore and Baton Pass are also decent for gaining momentum, but they are only situationally useful.

Mega Lopunny needs Metagross and Talonflame off the field so it can be effective, so Pokemon such as Magnezone and Tyranitar who can trap those are very helpful. Since Mega Pinsir forces it out, switchins to that are also good if you don’t want to constantly sack Pokemon. However, Mega Lopunny is rather more self sufficient than other Megas, so it’s mostly fine on its own.

When playing against Mega Lopunny, priority is your friend. Pokemon such as Azumarill can take a Fake Out+Quick attack combo and then proceed to OHKO with Aqua Jet, while Metagross can live both the Fake out and the HJK, leaving it as a potential switchin. Mega Lopunny is also outright countered by defensive Mega Scizor, so feel free to adjust that if your team is extremely weak to this.

Mega Manectric is an antimeta Mega, capable of taking on Mega Scizor, Metagross, and Pinsir. It's main tool is a boosted Volt Switch, but it's coverage doesn't hurt either. It's main goal is to force out the foe while stealing momentum.

Manectric @ Manectricite
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Timid Nature
-Volt Switch
-Flamethrower / Overheat
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power [ice]
Volt Switch is the move that hits the hardest on this set, and requires the least prediction. Against anything Manectric forces out it’s basically a free chip on whatever Electric-type check they think they have. Lightningrod premega allows you to come in on other Volt Switches, keep them in, and then retaliate with boosted attacks. Flamethrower covers the Steel-types it tries it come in on, particularly Scizor and Ferrothorn, while preventing Grass-types from coming in. Overheat gets the crucial OHKO on Mega Metagross and to a lesser extent Excadrill, but is less consistent. Thunderbolt gives you a solid attack if you want to switch in, while HP ice smacks Landorus-T, which is the only common Ground-type.
Boosting HP ice is an option, but a weaker Volt Switch is very noticeable.

Mega Manectric is best used as part of a Voltturn core- for this reason, Scizor is a great teammate, especially since Manectric handles Magneton/Zone and Skarmory. Skarmory itself is also good to use alongside Manectric, as its bulk and typing let it handle attacks Manectric dodges out of and it appreciates attack drops.

When playing against Mega Manectric, Ground-types are your best allies. Hippowdon, Swampert, Quagsire and Gastrodon can come in on any attack without much trouble. Similarly, electric immunity abilities prevent pivoting, but only Thundurus-T and opposing Manectric have that. Electric and Dragon-types also resist Manectric’s attacks, but it can simply switch out with its pivot move.

While it's ability isn't useful anymore, Mega Scizor carves a niche with its excellent typing, bulk, and movepool. With Roost and Swords Dance, it can set up on a large number of top threats before proceeding to sweep. Most notably, it counters on Mega Metagross while fitting readily on offense.

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
64 HP / 252 Atk / 194 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Bullet Punch
-Roost
-Swords Dance
-Knock Off
With the given EVs, Mega Scizor has the maximum possible offensive presence while outspeeding -1 Mega Metagross, with the rest dedicated to having as much bulk as possible. With this spread, Mega Scizor can freely come in on any attack from Mega Metagross, even Hammer Arm after Stealth Rocks, and Roost it off. It also outspeeds Crawdaunt and Azumarill, preventing them from stopping a sweep. Bullet Punch and Knock Off have decent coverage, and together allow Scizor to beat past Doublade and Skarmory. Roost keeps Scizor healthy and allows it gain multiple boosts, multiple times per match.
Superpower and U-turn are both viable options here, but they tend not to be as consistent as the main set. Bug Bite works as well, but it's in many ways the worst of both worlds. A Defog set is potentially decent considering the lack of hazard removal, but that comes at the cost of coverage. Finally, other EV sets are runnable as well, but this one is in many ways the most splashable.

When using Mega Scizor, answers to fire types and fire type coverage, such as Manectric, Zapdos, Infernape and Talonflame are key. Fire resistant Pokémon such as Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Heatran, Tyranitar and Starmie do this fairly well. Most of these also do not mind burns, so they can fulfill that role as well. Scizor is fairly vulnerable to trapping from Magneton and Magnezone, so Dugtrio, Landorus-T, and Tyranitar are great choices to deal with those. Choice Band Metagross, in particular, has similar checks and counters while bluffing being the team Mega, allowing you to earn some surprise KOes.

Mega Scizor is 4x weak to fire, so Fire-types such as Talonflame and Rotom-H are obvious picks, especially considering their access to Will-o-Wisp and pivot moves. Carrying that coverage will also deal heavy damage, so that’s an option as well. In particular, Magnezone traps and OHKOs Scizor even without returning HP Fire. Should that not be an option, anything that resists Steel will work in a pinch, be they Water-types such as Manaphy, Electric-types like Raikou, or Steel-types like Skarmory.

While they aren’t as good as the above megas, these Pokemon have their niche and are the best Mega Evolution for certain teams.


Mega Slowbro is a solid pick, possessing regenerator Pre-Mega, a titanic Defense stat, Shell Armor to prevent critical hit hax, reliable recovery, a boosted scald, and an excellent typing. It takes on nearly everything from Azumarill to Metagross, and can counteract boosting with iron defense and Calm Mind. While It’s weaknesses to Electric and Ghost are annoying, it’s certainly a good pokemon.


Mega Banette hits like a truck with a boosted Shadow Sneak off an excellent 165 attack stat, and can cripple priority attackers with a combination of Prankster Will-o-Wisp and Disable. It has difficulties, however, with faster priority and Fire types.


Mega Medicham is a niche pick that breaks open the current bulky archetypes once Talonflame and Doublade are removed. While it’s boosted by a lack of Mega Sableye and bulky Psychics, its niche of a hard hitter is greatly infringed upon and Megas like Metagross and Pinsir do it no favors.


On Mega Latias, the boost to Stored Power is greatly appreciated, allowing it the nuke it so desperately craved on CM sets. Sadly, Pursuit got a similar buff, and Weavile/Tyranitar are as common as ever, not to mention the increase of Crawdaunt. While it is an excellent water resist, Mega Latias is often inferior to other Psychic- and Dragon-types.


While Prankster Will-o-Wisp and Magic Bounce are no longer as good as they used to be, Mega Sableye is far from useless in the current metagame, particularly in regards with with a buffed Knock Off. Stall also has few other available Mega Evolutions, so it continues to serve on any such team.


Mega Charizard X is a fearsome pokemon, but all of its attacks relied partially or totally on their high BP in standard. While Return’d Flame Charge is almost certainly superior to Flare Blitz, Azumarill is as annoying as ever, and its speed boosting sets are no longer as untouchable after a few turns.



Get out there! Return’d is a largely unexplored metagame, and I look forward to seeing any ideas you have on the battlefield.





This was going to be longer, but many of these Pokemon weren’t as good as I hoped they would be, so they had to get consigned to honorable mentions. I’m not sure if I just couldn’t think of uses, but either way they weren’t as intuitive/good.
 
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Something to keep in mind about Mega Pinsir that I've not seen mentioned is that Feint is a non-contact move, so Ferrothorn and Tankchomp can't wear it down as easily. And that it's basically espeed pinsir with a higher bp espeed. It's not as much of a terror people think judging from myself using it and playing against it, however it's the most effective cleaner in the om as it is currently. With proper hazard control and the now plethora of trapping options for its checks you can reliably make it your win condition. If priority were nerfed I guarantee we'd see trapping moves dominate, but that's a discussion for a later time.
 


Posting mine here instead of my profile. I'm voting ban for two reasons. 1) Mega Pinsir cleaned teams too easily if it had good support imo. 2) There seems to be more variety in the suspect meta. I saw some Megas and several moves that I never did see in the Mega Pinsir meta.


Tagging people that got reqs but haven't voted:

Quantum Tesseract
Highlord
Pepeduce
jamashawalker
Arkeis
Ango
DontStealMyPenguin
Super Blooper
littlelachyjn

Please post your vote (ban Mega Pinsir OR do not ban Pinsir) on my profile :). There are several more people but I don't know their Smogon alts, or they're dead on Smogon.
 

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