RU Theorymonning

[mkizzy]

Approved by Molk

Credit to Zebraiken for coming up with this idea, thanks for providing the concept and thread structure~

Also thanks to Molk for helping out a bunch, without him this post wouldn't be here atm.

Hi!

Named after our very own venerable moderator Theorymon, this thread is primarily a thinking exercise, designed to help you understand how to think about and deal with new metagames and threats. None of the situations that will be discussed in this thread are guaranteed to happen, if they ever will at all. We're just going to talk about this kind of stuff just for the fun of it and to improve our discussion and thinking abilities, cool?

Here's how it's gonna work. I'm going to come up with a reasonable change to the RU metagame, and you guys discuss the aftereffects of this change, how it will affect the meta, some interesting sets you might use to combat this new change, any plausible counters, anything that you can think of to talk about this new potential change. This change could be anything from new DW abilities being released to UU drop-downs - even changes to the moves or abilities that current Pokemon have could be discussed. I'll also provide several questions to work off of (though you can make your own theories as well!), so hopefully it should be easy to just jump in and start discussing. I'm gonna give you guys an example or two of what's good and what's bad, just for clarification..

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Topic: Tornadus drops to RU​

Tornadus would be incredibly broken in RU, its simply too strong for RU to handle at the moment. It's combination of raw power, versatility and speed would completely tear apart the RU metagame. After certain threats are gone, Tornadus is capable of Hurricane spamming its opponent to death. Tornadus 2HKO's every relevant mon in the tier with the exception of Stunfisk and Lanturn, which are easily worn down anyways, and if this wasn't bad enough Tornadus can even set up a win condition with its teammates with a quick, Prankster boosted Tailwind or Rain Dance, ensuring that it leaves its mark even if it goes down over the course of the match. Tornadus would be immediately banned upon dropping to RU, otherwise this tier would be a wasteland. It would also be disastrous to almost every RU playstyle, wrecking them without mercy, creating yet another negative effect on the metagame. All in all, Tornadus would be an extremely hazardous Pokemon to have in RU, creating a worse metagame for everyone (not that it matters, it'd be immediately banned.)

This poster may be making some valid points, but it's an incredibly negative post and doesn't show any innovative thought or any different view points on this possibility, other than repeating the same sentiment over and over again. While Tornadus may definitely be broken in RU, that's not the intended purpose of the thread. Please keep this in mind!

There aren't very many hard counters available to Tornadus in RU in the current metagame. I'd imagine Lanturn and possibly even Stunfisk will probably rise sharply in usage, as they're some of the only Pokemon that can reliably counter Tornadus, avoiding the 2HKO from Hurricane or Acrobatics and then use an Electric move such as Discharge or Volt Switch to deter it. Anything else being able to scare it out is a stretch of the imagination; Rhydon might be able to do a decent job, but it's weak to Focus Blast :(. I can kind of imagine Tornadus used alongside stuff like Ludicolo, which switches in on and eliminates most of the checks that Tornadus has and can both set up and abuse the rain that Tornadus loves. Speaking of which, I think that Rain Teams would be particularly excellent in this metagame, as Ferroseed, Roselia and other Grass- and Electric-types that Rain Abusers such as Ludicolo, Kabutops, and Seismitoad usually have to work around would be on the down-swing thanks to the presence of Tornadus, who can threaten them with a powerful Hurricane. Furthermore, Tornadus can set up Rain itself in a pinch thanks to Prankster.

Can you tell the difference between these two contrasting posts? Example 2 is providing innovative theories on the impact of Tornadus, which is more important than stating the brokenness of the Pokemon. He/she mentioned threats that wasn't previously mentioned, that being Stunfisk and Lanturn and also discusses the general impact of the Pokemon on the current metagame. Remember, this thread isn't about discussing what would be broken and what wouldn't; it's about expanding your thought about the possibilities of the future metagame.

Here are some ground rules that I want everyone to abide by when suggesting stuff to talk about:

1. try to avoid suggesting obviously broken changes, any posts breaking this rule will be deleted/edited immediately. Something like Pure Power Gallade or Kyurem-W dropping to RU would be unacceptable as a post, for example.

2.Leave base stats, typing, and everything else alone. This is an exercise about moves and abilities, not anything else.

3.Give a brief explanation of why this move / ability would logically be usable on said Pokemon. This does not mean "i think it would be cool lololol". This does mean knowing the context of the move / ability that you want to add (ie. Quiver Dance tends to be found on Bug-type Pokemon with wings etc) and not just slapping moves on just because of their competitive nature. The goal here is semi-realism and discussing what would happen if Pokemon x got move y, not "let's see if we can make Pokemon x broken!!". I.E, no "charizard would be so cool with magic guard omg id use it a lot"

4.Post at least a little bit about what you think would change in the new metagame because of Pokemon x receiving move/ability y. I don't want you guys making posts that just say "LOL WHAT IF FLAREON GOT FLARE BLITZ THAT WOULD BE COOL" and leaving it at that.

5.Don't bring up more than one or two new ideas per post. Even if you can think of a million bajillion awesome new ideas for moves and Pokemon, realize that everyone else needs to have a chance to give their input, too. Of course, you will have the opportunity of posting these at another point in the thread, as long as you yourself are willing :).

6. Don't forget that everyone else wants to have their ideas talked about, too. If you see someone's post that has been ignored, give 'em a response. Remember, it doesn't have to be a 10 page essay!

7. Try to think outside of the box, not simply boosting moves or new coverage moves. If you're struggling to think of something that might be worth talking about, respond to someone else's thoughts and come back later. If you are unsure whether or not what you have to say is worth saying, post it anyway; having a few questions answered and talked about is better than having a dead thread.

I'll start off the discussion with some theorymonning of my own! Don't forget to think of things like "What effect will this have on the metagame?", "Will it significantly alter usage stats or outclass something to the point where it becomes a rare threat?", "What would rise up to counter or check this new threat?", "What playstyles and teammates would this new possibility fit in with?", "Will its other sets become superior with this new addition?", among other things you can think of yourself! So here we go:

What if Escavalier got U-Turn? Escavalier, despite being a powerhouse, often struggles with a lack of effective move options outside of Megahorn/Iron Head/Pursuit, making it rather one dimensional. U-Turn could turn this around and allows it to escape its counters (notably Magneton, who has a harder time trapping Escavalier due to the threat of U-turn), scout switch ins, and grab momentum for its teammates, as well as possibly giving Escavalier a few more play options aside from simply spamming Megahorn. Escavalier's U-turn would be especially powerful, factoring in STAB and its incredible base 135 Attack stat. It'll put a major dent in anything that's not Steelix or 4x Bug resistant, ensuring that Escavalier still poses a significant offensive threat even though its not using the more powerful Megahorn. The fact that Escavalier has an extremely low Speed stat also benefits its usage of U-turn; allowing a teammate to come in without it taking an incoming hit from the opponent's pokemon. Escavalier's excellent Bug/Steel typing further augments the usefulness of U-turn, allowing it to force a significant amount of switches, making it incredibly easy to maintain your advantage at any given time by simply U-turning out. So what do you think of U-turn Escavalier? Would it significantly affect the way people use Escavalier? How would it affect the metagame, if at all?

What if Lanturn got Recover? Lanturn's main flaw is that it's easily worn down over the course of the match by repeated attacks and entry hazards, with the addition of Recover to Lanturn's movepool, it'd finally have a way to reliably heal off all this residual damage aside from Restalk and Leftovers, making it much better at its job. Furthermore, the combination of Heal Bell and Recover would Lanturn into a powerful and resilient cleric, surviving throughout the entirety of the match to restore the status of itself and its teammates again and again. Aside from this, Recover would make Lanturn even better at walling the various threats in the RU tier it currently checks, such as Moltres, Magmortar, Rotom-F, Blizzspammers, Manectric, and Rotom-N, among others. So what're your thoughts on Recover Lanturn? How much would it affect the playstyle of Lanturn, if it all? What about its usage as a defensive Pokemon?

Remember that good discussion here (and in other threads) could help put you on the way to your very own ~Community Contributor~ badge. Discuss away! :)

 

[NfskMjmMal]

Hmmm, bluntly, I don't really like the idea of RU theorymonning. But, I'm just one random guy with one random opinion, so just ignore me if you want. But thanks for making the thread!

Escavalier would really appreciate U-turn, as its physical movepool is very bare. The standard Choice Band/Offensive set could easily ditch Return. The ability to switch, in my opinion, pretty much makes up for the little coverage that Return provides, as Return is mainly useful for hitting Fire-types harder, but U-turn is fine too because Escavalier can just get out of there. In other situations, Escavalier is giving up Sleep Talk, which is annoying at times, but I suppose you could use Bouffalant. Escavalier's massive attack and STAB will make U-turn do actually a lot of damage, which is great with the switching considering how much Fire there is in RU to force it out.

Recover is exactly what Lanturn needs. It won't have that much of a problem substituting out an attacking move. Volt Switch, Scald, Heal Bell, and Recover would be very hard to take down. A defensive core of specially defensive Lanturn and physically defensive Amoonguss would be so annoying. Tangrowth works well too of course. The typing that a Grass-type partner provides with Lanturn defensively is great, as Grass resists both of the types that are super-effective against Lanturn, and Lanturn resists two out of the three types that are super-effective against Grass.

 

[Yonko7]

Wow if Escavalier got U-Turn, I would imagine somethings might a lot different. Escavalier would actually hit harder than Scizor thanks to that sexy 135 Attack vs. 130, but comparisons aside it would help.

First, it would give slower teams a better chance to shine in a more offensively-inclined metagame. This is important to make the metagame for balanced as some would say, and it has gotten better since Nidoqueen rose up. Escavaliers good 70 / 105 / 105 bulk is great with its partial Steel-typing; it can take advantage of its typing to switch into a resisted Psychic-, Grass-, Bug-, etc. attack and hit the incoming switch-in hard with U-turn, effectively maintaining momentum. Offensive teams already have fast U-turn / Volt Switch users like Moltres, Uxie, Rotom, so they aren't lacking that in that department.

A bit obscure but it would also indirectly influence the use of Rain Dance teams. Because Escavalier learns Rain Dance, which lessens its only weakness, it can set up Rain Dance and then simply switch out with U-Turn to a Rain sweeper. Conversely, Escavalier can switch into Grass-type Pokemon for the rain sweepers.

There might be increase with Volt-Switch based teams with hazards support from predominately Smeargle. Escavalier paired with Lanturn with hazards on the field can quickly wear down Escavalier's counters like Moltres, Poliwrath, and Steelix. Ironically, Escavalier can also increase the use of offensive Spike-stacking teams with a Volt-Switch combo, although the only advantage than right now is that now you have a bulky Escavalier taken some blows and dishing them out too.

To counter the new Scizor-esque threat, there could definitely be an increase of Spikes usage, which would punish the grounded threat. Also, more Pokemon that Escavalier can switch into Slowking, Tangrowth, Sceptile, etc. can utilize Hidden Power Fire or another Fire-type move to hit Escavalier trying to regain momentum. More Pokemon with a Bug-type resistance will be used more like Steelix, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, and Moltres (if SR isn't up), but all are affected pretty heavily from hazards.

Some of my thoughts =]

Now how would Dusknoir getting Recover work? Hmmm...

 

[col49]

Oh, cool beans, theorymonning is always fun n_n

U-Turn on Escavalier would definitely be an interesting option, as with Spikes support it could much more effectively pressure Pokemon such as Poliwrath and Steelix by chaining into something that could threaten them out and rack up hazard damage (Lanturn comes readily to mind since the it provides good synergy along Esca and can Volt Switch out to maintain momentum). This move would likely be in lieu of Sleep Talk on Offensive sets, which while somewhat disheartening isn't a huge deal considering their are still solid alternatives for sleep absorption in the tier. With such a change I feel as though dropping Esca's Speed IVs and running a Brave nature would become a much serious option, allowing it to come out on top against other slower 'mons in terms of switch advantage, which of course only reinforces its good synergy with OTR Slowking =] This could very well increase the usage of HP Fire Cryogonal (as a method of combating Esca+Volt Switch user+Spikes), while also increasing Spikes usage as a method of either bolstering or limiting VoltTurn nonsense, depending on the player's outlook. While it would definitely be obnoxious as hell to play against in the hands of a seasoned player, U-Turn Escavalier would be pretty cool imo.

Recover Lanturn would also be really interesting (in a good way). As Feranfell mentions, Lanturn gets worn down way too easily as is, and RestTalk generally isn't worth it for a multitude of reasons. I know that personally I've never been fully satisfied any given pivot Lanturn's moveset (it would always be Volt Switch ⎮ Scald ⎮ (TWave / Protect) ⎮ Filler, usually being Protect or Heal Bell), though perhaps that's only because I've always considered Lanturn as more of a defensive pivot for offensive teams rather than a strict defensive 'mon '~' Anywho, with this their would be another lasting answer to Moltres and one that could actually provide some team support beyond that, which is an interesting concept for defensively oriented teams. All in all an upgrade like that would make Lanturn a much more flexible pivot (it'd also offer some cute synergy with U-Turn Esca :>) that would certainly prove much more useful for requiring significantly less "maintenance".

edit: Yonko ninja'ed me a little on the VoltTurn bit, nbd '-'

 

[Molk]

Now how would Dusknoir getting Recover affect it?

Hmmmm, Recover Dusknoir would certainly be an improvment, as one of Dusknoir's main issues is having to rely on Pain Split to keep itself healthy, but i still dont think Dusknoir would be that great of a Pokemon even with the inclusion of Recover to its movepool. In my opinion, Dusknoir's real problem doesnt lie in its defensive prowess, but rather in its ability to do damage back. While 100 Attack might not seem terrible at first, Dusknoir's damage potential is rather limited due to its relative lack of high BP moves. For example: the strongest physical STAB attack Dusknoir can use is Shadow Punch, which sits at a measly 60 BP, and the majority of its common coverage moves have a base power below 80 (with the exceptions of Earthquake and Focus Punch), further limiting its damage potential and leaving it vulnerable to several common threats such as Moltres. Because of this major flaw i'd still heavily consider using say Misdreavus over Dusknoir despite her lack of reliable recovery. Although her offensive stats are actually lower, her Shadow Ball is still significantly more powerful than Dusknoir's Shadow Punch because of the higher BP, while also having levitate and several important support moves such as Heal Bell and Perish Song over Dusknoir, as well as a significantly higher Speed stat that makes Misdreavus a much better user of moves such as Taunt. In my opinion, while Recover Dusknoir would certainly be interesting, what would truely bring it out of the shadows would be access to a physical equivalent of Shadow Ball. With the addition of this new move to Dusknoir's movepool, it'd be more than capable of putting up a fight, and it wouldnt be as prone to becoming a sitting duck/liability before it can make its presence known, thoughts?

 

[Magcargo]

In my opinion, while Recover Dusknoir would certainly be interesting, what would truely bring it out of the shadows would be access to a physical equivalent of Shadow Ball with the addition of this new move to Dusknoir's movepool, it'd be more than capable of putting up a fight, and it wouldnt be as prone to becoming a sitting duck/liability before it can make its presence known, thoughts?

While a physical equivalant of shadow ball is definetly going to improve dusknoir, I don't think that will be enough to make dusknoir as good as missy. TBH, missy's support movepool is the main reason she's better than noir in RU. Furthermore, noir will still have the problem of having coverage moves lower than base 80 power.

I think that giving Noir either rapid spin or leech seed will make it just as good as missy. Rapid spin (a direct reference from the anime) would give dusknoir the ability to spin and spinblock at the same time. Although dusknoir can't get past spiritomb, both missy and opposing dusknoir will not like taking repetitive shadow punches (it had 180 base power with STAB and super effective damage). Dusknoir will now become a compent spinner, along being an above average spinblocker.

Leech seed is an amazing support move and with it, dusknoir will be able to recover large amounts of Hp. The combination of WOW and LS will do around 25 percent damage to the opponent each turn, which means that the foe will die in 4 turns (5 if leftovers recovery is accounted for). Grass types will dislike taking a fire punch, as most of them are frail. Dusknoir will be way better at walling things than it used to be.

How would dusclops effect the metagame if it drops?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'm actually sure Dusclops might actually be good in RU. It has some really damn good defenses and Will-O-Wisp+Seismic Toss would be pretty stally. Dusclops can make for a nice defensive spinblocker that Kabutops can't really break through and neither can Cryogonal. It can WoW+SToss Kabutops to its death and RestTalk may actually be useful on it. Roselia+Dusclops may actually be legit on stall teams, because Roselia is a great Spiker who can spike while Dusclops pretty much blocks all spinners from spinning (and WoW/Curse stalling them to death). Dusclops could also synergize really well with Clefable and Poliwrath, as the three make a nice defensive synergy, and the latter also likes hazards to shuffle with. Dusclops also walls Hitmonlee and Gallade among others, so it could make for a decent physical wall and spinblocker who should be able to find common use in the tier. Oh and of course Dusclops dropping means Dusknoir will drop to NU, which may please many considering that Dusknoir has been almost unanimously regarded as one of the worst Pokemon in RU.

The above posts could really mention some improvements to Dusknoir.

Anyways, a topic here could be.

How do you think Meloetta, Houndoom, and Mismagius would fare in RU?

 

[Magcargo]

Houndoom would definetly impact the metagame. It has a good base 95 speed, an amazing 110 special attack stat and nasty plot. It only has one ligitement counter in emboar, which it can get past with HP ground. Bulky waters like slowking will be hard pressed to tank repetitive dark pulses. Its fire blast will be very powerful at +2 and With a potential flash fire boost, it can 2HKO the entire metagame. Houndoom will really shake up RU.

I Know that meloetta and mismagius will fare amazingly in the tier, though missy's viability may drop.

 

[mkizzy]

How do you think Houndoom would fare in RU?
I was really hoping Houndoom would drop in exchange for RU's Queen, but alas it did not. Houndoom would be another great Fire-type addition to RU, and it's Nasty Plot set would be exceptionally strong, possessing unresisted coverage with HP Fighting, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, and Dark Pulse. Despite this, there are some Pokemon that laugh in the face of Houndoom, most notably Quagsire. Even though Quagsire is a physically defensive Pokemon, it still has Unaware which ignores Houndoom's Nasty Plot boosts. Quagsire in turn can OHKO with Earthquake. Munchlax can take a few of Houndoom's (unboosted) attacks, and then retaliate with Body Slam, 2HKOing the Houndoom. Sadly, Munchlax isn't a very good Pokemon otherwise, for several reason I won't list here because this post isn't about Munchlax. Poliwrath is another Pokemon who can take on Houndoom, only being 3HKO'd by an unboosted Fire Blast, while Circle Throwing it out. Other Pokemon that can live an at least 2 unboosted attacks and at least 2HKO back are Druddigon (this OHKOs Houndoom), Lanturn, and Walrein. However, a Nasty Plot boosted Houndoom only fails to 2HKO a few Pokemon, including Quagsire and Munchlax. Priority moves can stop Houndoom in its tracks, like a Hitmonlee's Mach Punch (OHKO). All in all, Houndoom would definitely be a force to be reckoned with in RU, but a few Pokemon can handle Houndoom without too trouble as long as it doesn't have a Nasty Plot boost.

 

[Yonko7]

If Mismagius dropped, I don't think Misdreavus would necessarily drop in usage. Their physical defenses are equal, but with Evolite boosting Misdreavus's Defense, she'll be the physically bulky Ghost-type of the two. On the other hand, Mismagius would be a great special attack or special tank thanks to base 105 Special Attack and Defense, and Speed.

Mismagius can also be a good offensive spinblocker. The base 105 Speed allows her to Thunderbolt Kabutops before it can attack, although that low Defense can be troublesome if Kabutops predicts the switch-in; however, with Cryogonal, it can become a bit of a Speed race, with each seeing which can outspeed each other or win the Speed tie. Ultimately, I think Cryogonal that has Toxic can beat Mismagius thanks to Recover and Mismagius's lack of reliable recovery, but Mismagius could be a Substitute+CM variant. It would be really interesting to see how the metagame would change with her on board.

As I eluded to earlier, Misdreavus is the better physical tank, whereas Misdreavus is specially-, and offensively-oriented; they each will still have their own roles.

With Mismagius in the metagame, Dark-types will definitely rise in usage. Spiritomb is a great counter as it is unfazed by Shadow Ball+HP Fighting coverage, and can Pursuit-trap her, priority attack with Shadow Sneak, or overall mess her day up. Drapion and Absol will also have a role, but have to be careful of HP Ground or Fighting, moreso Absol than Drapion because Hidden Power Fighting fits much better with Shadow Ball. Absol can hit with Sucker Punch but variants with Substitute will easily see through it, and with a lower Speed it will most likely be losing most of the time. Drapion has it easier because its bulkier and has the typing.

It's hard to say if her inclusion is be a good one, because of how hard it is to theorize about the metagame with so many variables, but it will most likely increase the use of offensive teams. Offensive Spike-stacking teams could easily increase thanks to Mismagius beating Kabutops, stalling Cryogonal, and can be dangerous in her own right. The best way to balance her drop would be be include a Dark-type as well, maybe Houdoom.

 

[Molk]

How do you think Meloetta would fare in RU?

I personally think that Meloetta would easily be one of the, if not the best Pokemon in the tier if she ended up dropping. She has pretty amazing stats all around and a cool movepool as well that provides her with a lot of options (including a forme change, but i think aria forme would easily be the most common and effective forme in the current metagame). Some examples of sets Meloetta could run effectively include LO 4 Attacks, Choice Specs, Calm Mind+3 Attacks, SubCM, and even Specially Defensive! In a Metagame with Meloetta i think that Escavalier and Spiritomb's usage would definetely go up. They're two of the few hard checks to Meloetta available in the tier (although Escavalier loses to Hidden Power Fire Meloetta) and can threaten Meloetta in return with Foul Play/Megahorn/Pursuit, depending on the Pokemon. I also think that the usage of certain bulky Psychic-Types such as Uxie and Mesprit would go down, although i'm sure at least the former would continue to be a relevant threat. This is due to two things, firstly the presence of Meloetta herself kinda overshadows these Pokemon, and its perfectly possible that Meloetta could end up outclassing these Pokemon at many of the roles they currently play (I'd probably use SubCM Melo over SubCM Uxie any day for example, and thats saying something because SubCM Uxie's amazing >.>), secondly the increased usage of Pokemon such as Spiritomb and Escavalier to check Meloetta would make the metagame much more hostile for bulky Psychic-types, deterring their usage further. If Meloetta dropped to RU, my favorite set would probably end up being U-turn+3 Attacks Meloetta can cover pretty much the entire metagame with three of her moves, leaving the fourth move up for grabs, U-turn allows Meloetta to grab momentum from all the switches she's sure to cause with those awesome stats, and gives her a way to work around Spiritomb and Escavalier, simply switching out of them and doing a small amount of chip damage every time they come in until they end up in the KO range of one of Meloetta's attacks. Of course this isnt foolproof, as one misplay can leave Meloetta and/or her teammate in a tight spot, but it'd certainly make working around those two a lot easier imo.

Oh, heres something i've been wondering about for a while

What if Klinklang got Earthquake? Klinklang is a pretty scary as is, but its almost complete lack of physical coverage moves often ends up holding it back from being a top threat, ending up with it struggling against several common Pokemon such as Steelix, Entei, Emboar, Escavalier, and Aggron. With the addition of Earthquake to Klinklang's movepool, it could get past at least some of these Pokemon without much trouble, making it significantly more threatening overall. So how do you think EQ Klinklang would affect the metagame, if at all, would it become a top threat? would it suffer from 4mss because of the usefullness of Substitute? Would the metagame become significantly faster or slower with the new move?

 

[Magcargo]

What if Klinklang got Earthquake?

Its already very easy to sweep with klinklang thanks to gear shift, but EQ would bring it to a whole new level. Klinklang can run an all out offensive Shift gear set, with Gear grind, Shift gear, EQ and wild charge. While the loss of substitute would make klinklang more susceptible to status, Klinklang would hit most of the tier for neutral damage. Substitute Klinklang is still there and while it does get walled by moltres, it now has the ability to beat aggron and magneton. Klinklang would become way more vicious with EQ.

 

[Yonko7]

If Klinklang got Earthquake it would definitely raise it as an offensive sweeper, but probably not the best.

With Earthquake Klinklang suffers from 4MSS. Right now without Earthquake the typical moveset is Shift Gear / Gear Grind / (Substitute / Wild Charge) / (Return / Wild Charge). The first two are non-negotiable. Earthquake would be the primary slash in the third spot because then it can take out Aggron, Magneton, actually dent Steelix, and Qwilfish. Without Wild Charge, Poliwrath takes it on easily, and the absence of Substitute make it harder to set up on defensive Pokemon like Ferroseed. The typical moveset would probably be SG / GG / EQ / (Substitute / Wild Charge). The biggest boon to Earthquake is the neutral and super effective coverage that it gives, although Moltres can easily take it on if Klinklang lacks Wild Charge.

The overall effect on the metagame could take an interesting turn. Klinklang can easily set up on defensive teams with Substitute and take on offensive teams with Wild Charge, but I think offensive teams will have a harder time braving its attacks. Shift Gear quickly boosts Klinklang's Speed, which means that non-Choice Scarf Pokemon will have a hard time catching it, and even some Choice Scarf Pokemon below Scarfed Manectric; however, some offensive Pokemon will have the typing to take it. Moltres, for example, can take it on if it lacks Wild Charge. For most cases, Klinklang lacks the raw power and super effective coverage; sure it does have great neutral coverage, which only helps when its cleaning. Defensive teams will still have answers to Klinklang, Poliwrath can take it if it lacks Wild Charge. Quagsire might see an increase in usage as it can take it regardless, unless it has Hidden Power Grass(!). Also, Pokemon like Tangrowth and Sandslash have the Defense to take it on, and can respond with Hidden Power Fire and Earthquake, respectively.

Some great partners to Klinklang are those that make up the deficit created by the absence of Wild Charge or Substitute; it is easiest to make up for the absence of Wild Charge because Substitute's advantages are hard to make up for. Grass-type Pokemon are an overall great choice to deal with Slowking, Poliwrath, and Quagsire, so Pokemon like Tangrowth, Rotom-C, and Amoonguss can take the steed, or more offensive choices like Sceptile if its more offensively-inclined team. If Substitute is absent, then Pokemon that can give it a free switch-in like Smeargle are great, because it can setup Spikes and then Explode to get it in. Rotom and Rotom-C are great partners too, because they can Volt Switch Klinklang in, and also take care of Water-types.

 

[MicfiJasan]

What if Klinklang got Earthquake?

I'm actually working on a letter examining the effects of attacking moves right now, and Earthquake is certainly the move Klinklang wants the most. However, while it would certainly make him much better, I don't think he will necessarily become the best physical sweeper in RU. When it comes to two-move coverage (so assuming he runs Substitute), my calculations show that Physical Steel is actually the worst STAB option to have given an ideal coverage move, even worse than Normal or Poison STABs, and special Steel. Wild Charge helps alleviate this problem somewhat, but then he loses Substitute, which makes it harder to set up. In terms of physically-attacking Steel-types, Durant probably still offers more reward, but Klinklang would be easier to set up with better defenses in all three categories (and I guess higher speed after Shift Gear).

What if [everything mentioned so far] dropped?

Unfortunately for me the Moveset Stats for UU is down, so I can't look at data to make conclusions (which I always prefer).

Dusclops: The most obvious assumption is that it would make Dusknoir fall, and it would probably sit at the same level as Dusknoir is now, since the less competitive players would split Dusknoir/Dusclops usage ala Chansey/Blissey but with Dusclops getting a significant edge due to better defenses outweighing the Dusknoir's extra attack that still sucks. Cryo can't touch him, and he can 2HKO with Seismic Toss after Curse, while taking advantage of Cryo's Recover with Pain Split. He would be put at a decent risk of a freeze during all this though. Kabutops still 2HKOs with Stone Edge, even if burnt after the first one with Stealth Rock damage.

Mismagius: Not entirely sure how she would do, but I would imagine she does pretty well. She has access to Thunderbolt, which OHKOs Kabutops, and she outspeeds, but even if I give her the bulkiest spread possible to outspeed and guarantee the Tbolt OHKO, Tops has over a 60% to OHKO with +2 Aqua Jet. As for Cryo, its 3HKOs on both sides, but Cryo has Recover. Her best niche probably isn't even beating spinners though, as after a Nasty Plot she will hit very hard (only Munchlax and Curse Quagsire are guaranteed not to be 2HKOed, while Munchlax can't really do anything back) and fast, with base 105 Speed being great in RU.

Houndoom: The first thing I thought when I saw Houndoom was that we would actually have a decent Flash Fire user. However, it's actually pretty hard for Houndoom to safely switch in on the RU Fire-types. Moltres OHKOs with Hurricane, Entei OHKOs with Stone Edge, Magmortar and Specs Typhlosion OHKOs with Focus Blast, and Emboar OHKOs with Superpower. Meanwhile, even if it does get a Flash Fire boost, it can only OHKO Moltres after Stealth Rock, so it will be hard to abuse the boost. That said, deterring the use of Choiced Fire moves will still impact the tier, and it does have the option of going either full Special with Nasty Plot or mixed with Sucker Punch and Pursuit.

Meloetta: I think this puts up heavy competition for all bulky attacking Psychics. In my opinion it would easily be the best Calm Mind abuser in the tier, hitting incredibly hard and being monstrous defensively on the special side after only 1 boost. Stuff like Sigilyph will drop, Mesprit could fall to NU, and powerful physical Dark-types like Absol, Drapion, and Spiritomb would rise. Her defenses aren't shabby either. Running Slowking's current Defensive spread gives her almost the same physical bulk with significantly more special bulk (although her support movepool leaves much to be desired). Top threat for sure (we know how well 600 BST Psychics work in RU).

Finally, I'll pose a question that examines the flip side of the recent topics: What if Qwilfish/Slowking rises to UU?

Looking at the UU usage stats, Qwilfish has been used quite effectively in the past few months, and seems the most likely out of current RU pokemon to rise into UU come July based on stats alone. With a solid Spiker and physical Fire-type check gone, who will abuse his absence, and who will fill his voids?

On the other (and perhaps more interesting) hand, Slowking seems to be the RU Poke most highly regarded by the UU community (even rising to A Tier on their Viability Rankings). With Nidoqueen gone, it seems consensus that Slowking is the "king" of the tier. If he leaves, what sort of craziness will ensue?

 

[Molk]

What if Qwilfish rose to UU?

First off, i'd be very, very sad, qwilfish is one of my favorite pokemon to use in RU atm :(. Anyways, Qwilfish leaving would probably be pretty interesting. Ever since RU's inception its been highly regarded here as one of the best Spikers/Utility Pokemon in the tier, being able to reliably set up multiple layers of Spikes while countering tons of common threats such as Entei, Emboar, Durant, Escavalier, and Hitmonlee and checking still others if not only for its ability to function as an emergency stop with Intimidate. Without the presence of Qwilfish in the tier i think the previously mentioned Pokemon increasing in usage would be a given, as Qwilfish poses a significant threat to them with the ability to switch in on them repeatedly and set up spikes/paralyze a switch in with Thunder Wave, i could even see Durant becoming a somewhat controversial metagame addition with Qwilfish's leave. As for replacements to Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Alomomola, Slowking (if it doesnt move up as well ofc), and Quagsire would probably see an increase in usage to at least check some of the things Qwilfish beats at the moment (Alomomola even benefits from Qwil's leave in another way, it doesnt have to worry about Qwilfish switching in and setting up a layer of Spikes as it wishpasses). As for the spiker role.....i really dont think anything can completely fill that void =/, Qwilfish checked a pretty unique set of Pokemon as far as spikers go, and i cant think of another spiker that can check at least some of those atm, so any team that relied on Qwilfish as a Spiker would probably have to change several Pokemon if they want to keep Spikes without being open to something else.

Oh, speaking of Alomomola, what do you think Alomomola would be like if she learned Whirlwind? One of Alomomola's main flaws at the moment is that certain Pokemon can set up on her while she's helpless to do anything other than pass a Wish to something else that can handle them, with access to Whirlwind this problem would be at least partially solved, as she could phaze at least some of the Pokemon that use her as setup bait out before they get too dangerous, rack up possible entry hazard damage, and even keep the Pokemon that force her out from switching in easily with some prediction by simply Whirlwinding them out on the same turn. The only problem in my opinion would be finding a moveslot for it, Wish is pretty much a requirement on her, and her other three moves are important as well, Waterfall makes sure she's not tauntbat, and gives her a way of quickly disposing of frailer Pokemon/mons weak to Water and Toxic to help her wear down certain bulky/defensive Pokemon over the course of the match that she couldnt hurt with Waterfall otherwise, while Protect allows Alomomola to get extra leftovers recovery, scout choiced Pokemon, and protect herself to pass a wish to herself in a pinch. Personally, if Whirlwind was released on Alomo i'd probably end up using it over protect, Toxic and Waterfall/Scald are simply too useful to pass up in my opinion, and Alomomola's more than bulky enough to take multiple hits before Wish triggers. Plus, if i need extra help but i might end up KO'd without protect, i could simply switch out and take advantage of Regenerator recovery while passing a gigantic Wish to whichever teammate i switch in to handle the current threat, Whirlwind's utility is simply more than what Protect can offer imo, what do you think?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

What if Klinklang got Earthquake?

This would be a nice boon for Klinklang, tbh. With EQ in his movepool, Klinklang will no longer have to rely on Return for coverage, and can nab Steelix and Magneton for a good level of damage. A SG+3 Attacks set could work, with solid coverage between Gear Grind, EQ, and Wild Charge making Klinklang an even greater sweeper than it is now. That said, however, Klinklang will still struggle with 4MSS, as sometimes he really likes the utility of Substitute to work well, so he will have to decide between EQ and Wild Charge for coverage, and as MicfiJasan said, Steel is a pretty bad offensive typing, so it may be hard pressed. Still, EQ would put Klinklang up a level in physical sweeping. (and probably bump it up a rank in the viability thread, lol).

What if Qwilfish and Slowking rose to UU?

Qwilfish leaving the tier would really make a large impact in RU, as he is quite the unique spiker (who doesn't have many replacements). Qwilfish has a great defensive typing and an awesome ability in Intimidate, which makes him a great check to a lot of top threats in the tier such as Emboar, Entei, Escavalier, Durant, and Hitmonlee, as Molk said. Qwilfish also has quite a nice support movepool, with Taunt, Thunder Wave, and Haze to boot, so he's good at that as well. This makes Qwilfish a hard to replace Pokemon, but Poliwrath and Alomomola can make good replacements as bulky Waters. As far as spiking goes, Scolipede and Roselia make great spikers who can fit on teams well, although they aren't as good as Qwilfish. Qwilfish going UU would be a great miss for us.

Slowking is an absolutely definitive Pokemon in RU, and losing the ultimate glue Pokemon would be a real loss for RU. Slowking is a great wall who can take on quite a few special threats, bar Sceptile, and does well with a great movepool, and can go for offensive too. A very versatile Pokemon who is relatively easy to use is hard to replace, but overall Poliwrath may become the premier bulky water, while Mesprit and Uxie may take over as bulky Psychic-types. Still, Slowking is so good and will be greatly missed.

What if Alomomola learned Whirlwind?

This would be a nice plus, and would also mean it never would've been bashed in the first place. Alomomola is a pretty good WishPasser who can take on Entei and the likes while passing massive Wishes. However, with Whirlwind, it can take on more threats, particularly SD Gallade, while being a decent deterrent for things like SubCM Mesprit/Uxie and SDPede. Alomomola will be even harder to set up on and is going to bring its greatness to another level. Alomomola would really like Whirlwind overall and it would probably get higher places in the viability threads.

Now for a theory of my own.

What if Munchlax got Slack Off?

The reason Munchlax was unanimously regarded as absolutely terrible when he was RU was because of his lack of reliable recovery, which means he would be really easy to wear down over the course of the match and Sleep Talk is really unreliable. This means Munchlax is a hindrance to most teams. However, with Slack Off, I'd be certain that Munchlax can then take advantage of his amazing special bulk and Thick Fat to be a nice special wall in RU, because not many special attackers can break through him otherwise. Munchlax wouldn't have to rely on awful RestTalk to recovery and he could actually find nice room for Toxic in his set to work and actually have reliable recovery. Thoughts?

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Only going to comment on one of these

What if Alomomola got Whirlwind?

This would be a nice boost to Alomomola, but it would hinder its stalling capabilities a little bit. It would probably have to get rid of Protect for the move, and that means some Pokemon could take advantage of that. For example, if x Pokemon expects a Whirlwind, it could hit Alomomola extra hard. It wouldn't be too detrimental due to Wish, but it would still result in the problem of being a bit of set up fodder, even with Whirlwind, primarily because Wish is not immediate. It is also still very prone to Toxic damage with Whirlwind, although that is a fact that has not changed

Don't get me wrong though, because Whirlwind is still great. I could also see it pair up well with Entry Hazards, phazing out the ones that can hit it somewhat hard and using Wish on Pokemon such as Entei when it encounters something it walls. It also can stop setup sweepers in a pinch, as it will rarely actually get OHKOed by physical attackers. It also helps that there aren't very many special sweepers in RU, especially compared to physical ones.

Basically: It would fix some of Alomomola's problems and also give it a new possible side role but it would not fix some of Alomomola's existent issues at all.

 

[Molk]

What if Sheer Force Gatr was released tommorow? (and its legal with Dragon Dance ofc)

Sheer Force Feraligatr is probably one of the most anticipated DW releases of gen5.....that hasn't happened yet! Sheer Force Feraligatr has the potential to be one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, getting a boost on its strongest physical STAB: Waterfall, as well as several important coverage moves such as Ice Punch and Crunch, it also stops Life Orb recoil when Feraligatr uses these moves, giving it a bit more longetivity. In my opinion DD Feraligatr will rise above SD gatr as the best set with the release of Sheer Force, as DD gatr can take full advantage of Sheer Force without the need to take up a moveslot with Aqua Jet to hit faster foes, and the Sheer Force boost would make up for the lower damage output usually associated with DD gatr compared to Swords Dance. With the addition of Sheer Force Feraligatr to the metagame i think the usage of Poliwrath, Alomomola, and especially Ferroseed would rise up significantly, as these three are the best counters to Sheer Force Feraligatr available in the tier by far, Ferroseed also makes a great teammate for Feraligatr, setting up Spikes on its checks. Rotom-C's usage would also go up significantly, as it can reliably revenge kill Feraligatr even when its at +1 and also poses a threat to Poliwrath and Alomomola, who's usage would most likely increase to check the new Gatr. So what do you think of Sheer Force Gatr? what set would become the most popular? Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, or even something totally new? What would rise up to check it, and what might fall due to its presence in the metagame?

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

So we discussed this down in NU theorymon, and since its evo is up here, I'll put this out here.
what if Klinklang got Rapid Spin?
Even though RU isn't in need of a spinner, Rapid Spin Klinklang could be useful. It could allow it to effectively use its great defensive typing, and useable defensive move pool of Toxic, Thunder Wave, Metal Sound, Discharge, and Protect. Would you use Klinklang over the Hitmons or Cryogonal?

 

[mkizzy]

What if Klinklang got Rapid Spin?
Klinklang definitely would be cool with Rapid Spin, albeit probably not as good as Cryo or Kabutops (unquestionably better than the Hitmons as spinners, which are not very good at all.) As a defensive mon, I'm not so sure. Metal Sound really doesn't sound good at all, those type of moves just aren't very good, especially on a defensive set where you won't be doing much harming in terms of immediate damage. However nice Rapid Spin seems, there's not really any problem fitting on a spinner on a team currently, with choices such as Kabutops and Cryogonal. Klinklang also wouldn't like giving up a move (I don't see the defensive set being effect at all.) I'd definitely still use the Shift Gear set over any set with Rapid Spin. All in all, I don't think this would change much if anything, considering the abundance of good spinners in RU atm.

 

[ElegantLilligant]

I definitely would keep using Cryogonal over Klinklang. As mentioned before, there are a lot of good spinners.

Now how about this: What if Slowking got booted to UU?

My first thought would be that Alomomola would probably move up to replace it.

 

[MicfiJasan]

Rapid Spin Klinklang
Agreed that while it Rapid Spin is a move that would make sense flavor wise, it would have a very hard time separating itself from the spinners we already have, specifically Kabutops. It's best set would probably be an offensive spinner set much like Kabutops with Shift Gear/Gear Grind/Rapid Spin/filler (Wild Charge?). While it would be able to beat CBtomb and CroTomb (Defensive Spiritomb can burn to survive 2 +1 Gear Grinds), it would have massive troubles with Rotom, since it resists everything Klinklang could carry. SubSplit Rotom could run a bulkier set or Will-o-wisp and only lose the Sub on the second Gear Grind hit (at +1).

On a less serious note, casual players would see a Steel-type with Rapid Spin and instantly think it's amazing, so it would probably see a lot of use.

Sheer Force Feraligatr
It would be a terror before it leaves for UU, since it was quite high on DW UU lists back when those things still existed (like Top 5 iirc). It wouldn't be out of the question to compare it to suspects like Nidoqueen. It has a much higher Attack stat than Queen, with comparable bulk, but it suffers a bit from Durant syndrome, since Waterfall, Crunch, and Ice Punch all run 80 BP or less. It's ability to be worn down is slightly different, since it actually takes toxic damage and is hurt by burn, and is more vulnerable to hazards than Queen, but it will probably carry Aqua Jet or Dragon Dance (since it would likely get one of those) to make it harder to revenge kill. I agree with Molk to Dragon Dance being preferable to GATR TIME with Sheer Force, since it would probably like as much coverage as it could get, and it's power would already be huge.

Slack Off Munchlax
Great improvement for him, and he probably wouldn't have fallen near NU if he had it. The ability to be consistently useful past the initial 2-3 turns before he has to rest would be huge for him. He still has a bit of a problem with a mediocre attack, meaning he would still be complete Taunt bait. And if he runs Slack Off/Toxic over RestTalk, Body Slam para could conflict with Toxic (although I guess Return is technically an option). I'm not sure if he's quite top threat level with it, but he's sure a hell of a lot better.

Actually, the Dusknoir talk that preceded this also applies to Munchlax. They both really have two problems that prevent them from being successful. For Dusknoir, it was unreliable recovery (coupled with bad HP) and krap physical movepool, while Munchlax had unreliable recovery with mediocre attack stat. I'll give an edge to Munchlax in that the recovery probably helps him a lot more though, since it makes him quite a bit like...

Whirlwind Alomomola
This one is actually the hardest for me to evaluate. It would expand the list of things it can check a bit, but it still doesn't solve its own weakness to Toxic and being even bigger Taunt bait than Munchlax. Not to mention thanks to Poliwrath's and Qwilfish's secondary typings, they can tank hits from physical Rock, Bug, and Fighting types more easily. Granted, Mola will recover the damage she does take more easily. Regenerator probably is the saving grace of using it.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Here's a question I was thing about...

How do you guys think Zoroark would fair in RU?

 

[Molk]

Heres something i've been wondering

What if Mandibuzz learned Bulk Up?

After playing around with SubBU Braviary for a bit today, i was wondering how Braviary's counterpart: Mandibuzz would fare if it could run the same set as well (Sub/BU/Brave Bird/Roost for reference) While Braviary's already more than bulky enough to set up on the majority of RU's defensive Pokemon, Mandibuzz takes her bulk to a whole new level, being significantly bulkier than Braviary on both the physical and special side, which could allow her to reliably set up on foes that Braviary never could, while also making it much easier for her to create unbreakable Substitutes, setting up a win condition. On the other hand, though, Mandibuzz's Attack stat is very low, and even though the high base power of Brave Bird compensates for that somewhat, she'd still need significantly more boosts to become a big threat when compared to her counterpart, and other bulky boosters such as Gallade, who usually only need one or two boosts to start doing damage. So what do you think of Bulk Up Mandibuzz? would she be able to use it effectively? would it impact her playstyle or the metagame at all? or would her mediocre Attack stat hold her back from becoming a big threat?

How would Zoroark fare in RU?

Hmmmm, If Zoroark dropped just now, i think it'd easily become one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier, although i think it'd still be perfectly manageable as an offensive threat despite its mixed stats and Illusion. In my opinion the best Zoroark set would end up being a simple Life Orb 4 Attacks set (Dark Pulse/Focus Blast or Low Kick/Flamethrower/Sucker Punch), although Nasty Plot and Choice Specs would definitely have some merit as well. Choice Specs would have some more power behind its attacks and would have an easier time bluffing different Pokemon over the course of the match due to the lack of prior damage from Life Orb giving away its disguise (although Zoroark only needs to pull off its Illusion once to be really scary). Nasty Plot would be very effective vs defense balance/stall teams, and while Zoroark is incredibly frail, Illusion would give it plenty of chances to set up by bluffing as another Pokemon. As Texas mentioned, Zoroark's fraility would probably hold it back from being unmanageable despite all of its positive traits, with measly 60/60/60 defenses, Zoroark's pretty much dying to anything it doesn't resist, and even resists can score a 2HKO on it if they hit hard enough >_>, this makes Zoroark incredibly vulnerable to priority (especially Extremespeed and Mach Punch, the latter of which would probably rise in usage with zoro around) and simply being revenge killed in general, Sucker Punch could help out with this a bit, but it wouldn't be powerful/fast enough to save Zoroark from a priority attack every time ;-;. One example of a Pokemon that i think would be much better with Zoroark's presence would be Emboar. Emboar both functions as a good check to Zoroark, resisting Dark Pulse, Flamethrower, and Sucker Punch, while having enough Bulk to take both Focus Blast and Low Kick, while OHKOing in return with either Choice Scarf Flare Blitz and Superpower. Aside from that, Emboar makes an excellent teammate for Zoroark as well! With Zoroark being able to bluff as Emboar to take out things such as Slowking and Qwilfish, giving Emboar a much easier time cleaning up later on. Furthermore, unlike other Fighting-types that could pair well with Zoroark, Emboar is neutral to Stealth Rock, making it harder to tell the difference between Zoroark and the real thing.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

What if Mandibuzz learned Bulk Up?

I honestly do think that Mandibuzz's Attack stat would hold it back from being a huge threat. 65 base Attack is pretty bad, and one of Braviary's advantages is that it can start hitting its resists hard after a few boosts thanks to its naturally solid Attack stat even when uninvested. Although 110/105/95 (I think this is its defensive stats) are a lot better than 100/75/75, strong special attackers still hurt at least enough to break its sub, and weakish ones can't break Braviary's Sub anyway oftentimes.

I do see it being slightly better late-game than Braviary, however, due to its higher bulk, but I can't really think of very many Pokemon Bulk Up Mandibuzz can set up on that Braviary cannot, and furthermore, as aforementioned, Braviary becomes a threat a lot faster. It can also use a STAB Return over Brave Burd to conserve health, something Mandibuzz is incapable of doing. Essentially, while Mandibuzz does offer a higher bulk, SubBU Braviary can set up on the same Pokemon as Mandibuzz can, and its much higher Attack allows it to pose a threat offensively very fast (This can also come in handy against phazers, which is something I just thought about). I just don't see very much of a reason to use it over Braviary.