I'm aware of the unfortunate reality that Scald is off the table; however, I am still going to write this novel because it seems people don't seem to get the big deal about this move, as evidenced a few posts ago, and/or consider it just another stupid thing in a game filled to the brim with them. Today I was browsing through some logs from before SPL 6 and ctrl + f for "scald" had tons of respected players complaining non-stop about how terrible the move is; maybe there's a reason this thread was made. Let's not pretend like this is something I just made up because I got haxed one time.
Another thing is that people seem to think the entire argument against Scald is "it's fucking stupid" and while they may not disagree, they also can't get behind such a primitive ban reason because otherwise you'd have to ban Thunder Wave and such. We ban things on a case by case basis, first of all, and the case for banning Scald is much stronger than anything related to other luck-related moves. The "you can't ban this or you have to ban that" argument has always been an annoying copout and while the reasons it is seem more than apparent enough to me, when it comes to suspect topics there is a history of otherwise intelligent people suddenly being unable to understand anything that isn't entirely spelled out to them.
I would throw out every "stupid" (luck-based) move without a second thought. This means your ADV Rock Slide, your DPP Iron Head Jirachi, Thunder Wave, and what have you. I enjoy when there is less potential for "nonsense" (quotation marks so someone doesn't try to latch on and miss the point with some bullshit about "well nonsense is subjective lol") in this Game of Odds we play, and if we want the game to be as competitive as possible then that is the clear solution to me, since I don't buy the "but we aren't even playing Pokemon if we ban a lot DX" argument because that is arbitrary, with no real way to measure it and if that were the case then we haven't been playing Pokemon for a long, long time.
This "extreme" method isn't the only way, however; banning things is not an all-or-nothing deal. By saying "if you ban Scald you have to ban TWave and all other instances of luck" you are saying one of two things. The first thing you might be saying is that since we cannot get rid of all luck in Pokemon, we may as well not even try limiting the more extreme instances of it. Funnily enough, you don't see anyone clamoring to try out OHKO/Evasion moves or Moody. This kind of argument often popped up in BW suspect threads, things along the lines of "BW will suck whether or not we suspect Landorus/Keldeo/Kyurem-B/weather, why bother?" and if you need why that's pure nonsense spelled out then you probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Plus, it's even said in our handy-dandy tiering framework under Section IV.) Probability management is a part of the game:
"B.) This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much" and we removed them."
No, I am not saying Scald is as bad as those things, before someone decides to jump down my throat and put words in my mouth.
The second thing you might be saying is that banning Scald alone is unfair because there are other luck-inducing moves in the metagame. In order for this argument to hold water, Scald would have to be at the same level as other luck-inducing moves. Suggesting Scald isn't in a league of its own is being (purposefully) ignorant of reality.
Speaking of people either not knowing what they're talking about or ignoring points that refute theirs (the latter being a common tactic when it comes to discussing suspects, I'm aware), I must now refute the incredibly stupid/intellectually dishonest comparison to moves such as Lava Plume, Body Slam, Discharge and Sludge Bomb. If you seriously compare Scald to those moves, you either don't understand what's going on, or you are purposely spewing falsehoods that seem like a logical conclusion just because you really want to keep Scald around so you can abuse it. This has been the case for several suspects in the past, and it's no different here. Both parties have made several appearances in this thread. It's been stated several times, but let's go through it again.
Scald has incredible distribution. Look at all these Pokemon that can and do viably Scald in OU:
Keldeo, Manaphy, (Mega) Slowbro, Slowking, Starmie, Suicune, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Alomomola, Politoed, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Kingdra, Omastar, Mega Blastoise, Jellicent, Seismitoad. I'll even mention Eo's Azumarill and CTC's very heat very swank AV set with Scald as the 4th move actually having the slightest semblance of viability to show how unbelievable Scald is.
Users of Lava Plume in OU: one, Heatran. If your Heatran counter gets screwed by a Lava Plume burn, you are Heatran weak to begin with because it also learns Will-o-Wisp. There are also Pokemon such as Gliscor, Starmie and Manaphy that generally don't care about whatever it wants to do. Users of Discharge: one, Zapdos. If your counter to Zapdos gets screwed by a Discharge paralysis, you are Zapdos weak because it also learns Thunder Wave (granted this doesn't see use now but the way people put TWave on all their shit nowadays then who knows). Neither of these things do anything to help its weakness to slow Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Clefable. It can annoy Pokemon such as ScarfTar, Charizard-X, Heatran and Latios, sure. Users of Body Slam: two, Jirachi and Altaria. Jira can threaten a (non-bulky) Garchomp or Landorus-T with it, sure. It also gets completely blanked by other common Pokemon that tend to be partnered with them, such as Rotom-Wash, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Heatran, Mega Scizor, I could go on. Altaria might make that ScarfRachi hesitant to switch in, but it doesn't threaten its bulkier counters at all and Alt is generally starved for power as is. Users of Sludge Bomb: Mega Venusaur, it's pretty rare on Amoonguss. Sure, Tornadus-Therian, Talonflame and Lati@s will not enjoy the poison. Others like Heatran, Skarmory and Chansey (because it takes so little it's not immediately pressured) couldn't care less about it.
See how these moves on some Pokemon can threaten some common switchins, but are shit useless vs others? That's fine. That's the difference between them and Scald, who has exactly one switch that truly doesn't give a fuck about it - Gastrodon (I guess Jellicent if you're ABR), who doesn't like a lot of things that Scald users tend to carry... and uses Scald itself! People say "if your counter gets screwed by something a Pokemon can do, it's not a counter" and don't realize that they're actually helping show how awful Scald is. The Water type has long been dominant because of how naturally powerful it is. You take these Pokemon that are incredibly strong to begin with and then give them this (luck-based!) move that cuts their counters down even more. People complain about how impossible it is to counter everything in ORAS. Well god damn you must really like complaining then because why else would you not want options to counter dominant Pokemon to open up?
Not only do your teambuilding options go way the hell up, but battles also improve. If someone plays it safe and gets predicted, they no longer have the chance to get away with it anyway. If Mega Venusaur switches into Keldeo's Surf, your switchin is getting attacked and the pressure is on you. If Mega Venusaur switches into Keldeo's Scald and gets burned, you've got a free switch as it's forced to Synthesis. If someone carelessly throws away their answer to SD Scizor, they can't go "well I'll throw Manaphy into it and hope I get the burn" and get away with it.
[16:05] <jeff48> scald is dumb cause it rewards the safe move. lets say u got a keld vs tran and u know hes got a venusaur out back. rather than anticipating the venusaur switch and doubling to pinsir or whatever, u can just scald and potentially win either way depending if it burns
[5:13:36 pm] <~Nails> scald is dumb because the only type that is immune to the status it inflicts is weak to the move
[5:13:50 pm] <~Nails> discharge is resisted by electrics and grounds and can't paralyze either
[5:14:12 pm] <~Nails> sludge bomb is resisted by steel and poison and can't poison either
[5:14:18 pm] <~Nails> lava plume is resisted by fires and can't burn them
[5:14:30 pm] <~Nails> body slam is resisted by ghosts and may as well be resisted by electrics and can't paralyze either
[5:14:38 pm] <~Nails> also make a note that jeff48 is heist/babidi1998
Of course, the type chart is not the only factor in Pokemon, harkening back to Phil's Protips. There are many ways around burns. Lum Berry! Magic Guard! Heal Bell! Water immunes!
- Lum Berry is a one-time solution for a move that gets thrown around an awful lot, and isn't exactly a great fit on counters to Scald-using Pokemon. If you want to run Lum Ferrothorn just to Slowbro/Manaphy/Suicune have to burn you twice before getting ready to run you over then have fun not winning.
- Magic Guard Clefable loses to: Keldeo, Manaphy, CM Slowbro (which is pretty much every one), CM or NP Slowking, Suicune, Kingdra, Omastar, Curse Gastrodon, Curse Quagsire, Tentacruel, Jellicent. Sure it's nice to pivot out of a non-Scald and the soaking abilities are gorgeous against an annoying Starmie or something but you cannot act like it is a reliable way to beat them. Reuniclus is in a similar boat and it is much less viable (not to say it isn't good).
- Heal Bell: Chansey is good, Mega Altaria is good, Togekiss is good, everything else is gimmicky/bad. A wide variety to choose from. Plus, your burned Pokemon still gets crippled temporarily (and can get burned again!), and it's not like pulling a HB off is easy. That said, this is good. Not exactly easy to fit in though!
- Water immunes: Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Jellicent. Not exactly a ton to choose from. Gastrodon is amazing of course, albeit not flawless. Toxicroak is alright but UU and not very bulky. Jelli seems pretty similar to Gastro albeit with bigger flaws.
- Healing Wish, which is now apparently an anti-Scald measure: well, technically, yes... but how do you seriously suggest sacrificing one of your Pokemon to deal with an unlucky burn as a reasonable thing?
The numbers on Scald are absurd. The chance of burning in one of two Scalds is 51% - you are actually the lucky one if one of them doesn't burn! This is staggering when you consider how many opportunities there are to use the move in the game, again due to how powerful Water types are. It is not comparable to a stray critical hit losing you a game, where you can chalk it up to "shit happens." This is games commonly being swayed in one side's favor by the dreaded Odds. Yes, minimizing the luck you have to fight through is a huge part of being good at Pokemon. However Scald is so ubiquitous that this is demanding the impossible.
But, you say, burns aren't even that bad for special attackers! Well, if you think being forced to prematurely heal and constantly being on the verge of death from switching into nearly anything at all isn't even "that bad" then I'm probably not convincing you of anything. This isn't even mentioning how physical attackers just... aren't switchins at all. Poor Azumarill, totally blanks Keldeo but can't switch in because of Scald. I've seen some people say Azu is so impossible to switch in to for offense that this is a good thing, but this sounds more like a problem on Azu's end. I've heard similar things about Mega Venusaur and Mega Scizor, that they'd be borderline impossible to deal with for most offense without it, but... well, let's just say that Snorlax having Body Slam doesn't stop Dragon Dance Tyranitar from being a total menace in ADV.
Going back to the tiering framework, I saw something else of interest:
C.) "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what he does. In relation to the latter part, "too much" also refers to factors that nearly completely take a game out of the player's hands and turn the PRIMARY point of the game to wait for the RNG."
This sounds an awful lot like Scald to me! It doesn't have to be a game-ender. A "considerable disadvantage" is exactly what a burn on Amoonguss or Tornadus-Therian entails, and many games' primary points are waiting on whose Scald spammer gets "lucky" first.
Yes, you can skillfully use Scald. You can make skillful use of anything in the game. It took skill for Landorus to predict the Tornadus-Therian switchin and use Rock Slide, but we banned that, so I don't see why Scald should be exempt just because you can double Amoonguss into Keldeo against the Heatran switch and use this free turn to attempt to burn Mega Venusaur.
I think I covered everything on my mind and look forward to engaging in intelligent warfare. Thanks for reading.